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At This Hour

Interview with Ukraine President.

Aired July 21, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PETRO POROSHENKO, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: But now we talk about the deescalation and peace in this zone.

We're waiting for two weeks until this representative of this terrorist even sitting on the table or having the video conference with the trilateral contact group from the OEC Ukranian and Russian representative. They rejected even the possibility to have these talks.

Can you imagine now that, the -- in the present situation, we use all the opportunities, but this problem on the east of Ukraine should be solved because this is, again, creating the global danger of the global security.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Mr. President, I have to ask you to react to something that the Russian defense minister said today. He held a news conference a few hours ago and showed what he said were all sorts of radar pictures and saying that it was a Ukrainian military aircraft that was flying a few kilometers away from the Malaysian Flight 17 just shortly around the time that it was down.

What is your reaction to that?

POROSHENKO: My immediate reaction: this is not true. And we are open for any checking and this is not -- Russia -- when the Russian minister should -- when Russian minister makes such a statement, they should present evidence of that.

But the sky above the Ukrainian territories is monitoring by lots of satellites, by lots of anti-aircraft position.

And everybody that at this period of the time when tragedy happened, that all Ukrainian planes were on the ground in the where is, I don't know, maybe several hundred kilometers. And this is not true.

And I invite the Russian representative to participate in the work in the investigation commission, and instead of doing such irresponsible statement, they have an opportunity to send their representative and present to the commission all the necessary evidence, not wasting 96 hours, when the people around the globe are sitting and waiting about the possibility to start the international investigation work.

So this is irresponsible and false statement of Russian minister and, unfortunately, this is demonstrate the very bad trend. I'm very disappointed with that. AMANPOUR: Have you actually spoken to President Putin since this plane was downed?

POROSHENKO: We are in constant contact of the Normandy format. But, look, the dialogue are quite active. I think that we awaiting now the practical step.

Christiane, as we agreed, I have now international calls with the leaders of states and I want to thank you very much indeed for this opportunity to communicate and thank you for the people of the whole world for supporting Ukraine and victim of the terrorist attack in this very difficult time. Thank you very much indeed.

AMANPOUR: President Poroshenko, thank you very much. You go and make your important phone calls and we will be continuing to follow this story.

We're going straight back now to Wolf Blitzer.

And, Wolf, you heard some very emphatic declarations and denials from the president of Ukraine, denying any responsibility, including the accusations from the Russian defense minister saying he has ordered a 40 kilometer cease fire and sanitary zone if you like around the crash site and wanting immediately international investigators to come. He said that there are still 16 of the 298 bodies that have not been picked up and have not yet been accounted for. The others, he says, in a very few hours, if not almost immediately now given the time difference, will be making their way on that refrigerated train back to the eastern town and to be returned a decent reunion have family members and decent burial.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's shocking. Four days they have lying there and still have not recovered these bodies. It's totally shocking what's going on. You are ware that 298 people were aboard that plane and that search and rescue site -- that search operation has been so, so awful. You've spoken to this president Poroshenko on several occasions, what else can he do effectively to try to restore Ukrainian sovereignty throughout all of Ukraine?

AMANPOUR: It is incredibly difficult and truthfully as everybody now says and understands, the only way for that to happen is for the Russian president to be fully engage on this. The last time I spoke to president Poroshenko was just a few weeks ago and he at that time had -- there was a cease fire under way. He had offered a peace plan and that eventually was not taken up by the separatists or by president Putin, and I asked him, I said, in order for this to be solved, you do have to work with president Putin, right? He said absolutely because they can choose how to turn it up and how to turn it down. How to open the border and let these fighters and heavy weaponry and anti aircraft missiles and tank and all the rest of it come in or not. They could close it and make sure that didn't happen. Stop these heavy weapon systems, stop Russian trainers going in, mercenaries going in. All you have to be is a -- they are there. And he says that's the only way it's going to stop. But he does say also that he up until this crash, up until this downing of this plane believed that Russia's interest was to create a weak eastern Ukraine to continue to destabilize it, to try to continue to exert influence over him and what goes on in Ukraine and that he says has to stop and we'll see whether this is a turning point, whether this will shock the Russian leadership into falling into line with international procedures and respecting Ukraine's sovereignty and its territorial integrity which Russia signed up to way back 20 years ago, Wolf.

BLITZER: I was thinking you and I were in Moscow together in December, 1991, when the collapse of the Soviet Union occurred. We saw that signing ceremony, ending 74 years of communist rule what was then the Soviet Union then became the independent states, including Russia. We thought the cold war was over, obviously, and it was over for a while, but give me your thought right now. Is the cold war back on?

AMANPOUR: Well, depending on who you talk to, some people think yes. But most people say no. This is obviously the worst conflagration, the worst tension, crisis, it does get worse and more bitter with each of these outrageous incidents and this one being so over the top that people have been shocked into making sure that they react very strongly to this, but, no, the cold war is not back, but relations between the United States and Russia are incredibly bad, just to put a small, you know, description on that. Very, very bad. And the point really is what does president Putin choose to do now? All we can, we've been listening here to Europe, to the prime minister of Britain, chancellor of Germany, to the president of France, leaders of central Europe, the president and the foreign minister of Poland, et cetera, et cetera, saying this is the time to call a halt and draw a line in the sand that president Putin has to make a choice whether to be part of the internationally accepted civilized norms of international law and behavior or not or to continue down a path that some are wondering really in scratching their head as to how on earth this might benefit Russia to begin with? His own previous advisers are saying he does not have a strategic sense of what he's doing. This is all very tactical and yes it might have played well in Russia given the propaganda that's governing the situation in Russia, president Putin has had very high ratings but get this because of that propaganda over that last four months, 40 percent of Russian people would like to see Russia enter war with Ukraine. Putin doesn't want that. But he's now put himself in a position that he's going to have to really use that strength that he has to push himself back on to where he becomes a constructive member of what's going on rather than to continue to play this double game of I can't control them, it's not up to me, I want a peaceful settlement. Now he's been read the riot act by the international community. Will he hear it? We'll see.

BLITZER: We'll see if those sanctions are ratcheted up more. I suspect they will unless there's a backing down. Unless the Russian President Vladimir Putin blinks, and he's not a guy who often blinks.

Thank you so much for speaking with the president of Ukraine.

The president of the United States making a major statement in Ukraine as well as what's going on here in the Middle East.

Our special coverage will continue. We'll take a quick break. Much more news right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm John Berman, along with Michaela Pereira.

Right here on CNN, you just heard two remarkable statements, the president of the United States talking about the shooting down of MH flight 17. And the president of Ukraine, in an exclusive interview, placing the blame squarely on the pro Russian rebels, he didn't want to call them separatists in the eastern part of that country this as U.S. intelligence and military officials investigating whether Russian military was there at that missile sight when the missile was fired. The question, just how responsible is Russian President Vladimir Putin.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: We want to bring in Congressman Mike Turner in Washington.

In light of the two conversations, Wolf Blitzer was with us hearing the president speaking about the White House with the situation ongoing in Ukraine and I know you heard also from president Poroshenko as he was reacting to the situation on the ground there. So many voices that we're hearing not only from the presidents of both nations, are putting a lot of blame squarely on the shoulders of Vladimir Putin. President Obama being very clear in saying that he believes that his preference has always been that diplomacy is the way to go. I'm wondering if you think that is far enough for the president or he needs to make more action than that.

REP. MIKE TURNER, (R-OH) ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: You are right. These certainly are the strongest statements that we've heard from the president, firmly laying the blame on Vladimir Putin on what's occurring there, lack of the access of the sight and the fact that a war zone has been opened up in Europe.

He is not talking about a diplomatic swaying that includes the separatists, that are Russian citizens or Russia itself.

BERMAN: The president said that international investigators need access immediately to the crash site here which is also a crime scene. He said that Russian president Vladimir Putin now has the burden on him to make sure that these pro Russian rebels allow this access and the president says if Mr. Putin does not allow this access the cost for the Russian behavior will continue to increase and my question to you are those costs high enough right now and what should the additional costs on Russia be?

TURNER: Well, again, I don't think they are strong enough, but the president has gone and made the strongest statements that he has about Putin's influence here, saying the international community needs access and Vladimir Putin needs to do more than make statements. Recognizing that he believes Putin is in control and in charge and if Putin says access will be granted that will be granted. President went on to say how important this is investigated. This is a crime scene, people were murdered. People need to be hold accountability. Another issue this points out, this is a difference between the international community and Russia with respect to human values, we see that for the handling of the site, support of Europe and the support of civilians.

PEREIRA: The president has called for sanctions against Russia in the past when we've seen the things that happen in the past. Are we going to see more unification?

TURNER: Absolutely. The international community has seen the risks of. I think what's interesting here is the issue of what is the toolbox that we have to put pressure upon Russia? Sanctions are certainly a dial that we can turn up but the great interview that was done of president Poroshenko certainly indicates that NATO plays a role. An opportunity to provide intelligence and strategy and equipment to the Ukraine and also you have the issue of how else can we assist them in looking to identify these separatists as Poroshenko indicated as terrorists.

BERMAN: You talked about the interview that was done by Christiane. The president said the pro Russian rebels who he said shot down MH17, he said they were supported, trained, and armed by the Russians themselves. He even suggested most of them are Russian citizens to be sure. That's an exact quote from him right there. You were privy to certain intelligence. Do you believe that Russians and Vladimir Putin are directly responsible or even tangentially responsible for shooting down this aircraft?

TURNER: I can't tell you what's occurred in the briefs but I can tell you how pleased I was about the president's statements about drawing a line. If you give someone equipment, training, and means and approve of their mission to basically kill someone and they kill someone else, you are still as absolutely guilty of the killing as we see here in this instance. This is why this is a crime scene. I think Russia bears responsibility. They are continuing that with not providing access to the site. It was very I think encouraging to hearing the president strongly say, what are they trying to hide. I think that certainly is an issue that Vladimir Putin himself needs to answer.

PEREIRA: Thanks so much for making time for us and sticking with us here in CNN. Obviously the situation is developing, ongoing, hopefully be able to talk to you again about it.

BERMAN: What exactly are they trying to hide? Words of President Obama just moments ago about this crash site, this crime scene in Ukraine. Serious concerns. It has already been contaminated. Next, we'll look at how this will affect, perhaps impede the investigation going forward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: What are you hiding? That was the call put out by President Obama to pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine. There's major concern that they have disrupted the crash site of MH17. There are even grisly reports of thieves stealing bank cards from victim's bodies. A fresh round of fighting has broken out within 40 miles of that fight.

PEREIRA: The first international team of investigators have arrived on scene. They're said to be inspecting bodies stored in those refrigerated rail cars. We've learned the rebels will now allow the train to travel to another Ukraine city in less than an hour.

We bring in our safety analyst, David Soucie, to talk about this.

A contaminated crash scene is sort of your worst nightmare, but then you add to it, the fact that there's fighting, there's a threat in the area. Talk about how this is going to affect this investigation.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: The investigation itself is ongoing. That's the proximate investigation. What I'm worried more about is down the road. We start talking about trying to prove a war crime or a crime of any kind. Because then you talk about the credibility of the evidence. It's been tampered with. The major point of a credible evidence is it has a complete chain of custody. Where was it located? Who picked it up? Would transfer it? Where did it go from there? We see it disappearing into a white tent here.

BERMAN: When the president said what are you hiding, what are the pieces of evidence that could be decisive either now or down the road?

SOUCIE: I think if they are trying to hide something, it's pretty futile. The evidence on screen will substantiate the evidence they've already got. What they've got now is they know they see the missile go. They see the missile hit. Any reasonable person would say that means they shot down the airplane. So what they might be trying to hide is any type of residue. Remember, there won't be any explosive residue in this because the missile explodes before it impacts the aircraft. The only thing that goes through the aircraft are debris, metal debris. There may be some residual, but not much. So they may be trying to hide that.

PEREIRA: The question the flight data recorder.

SOUCIE: right.

PEREIRA: We know that -- it sounds as though rebels may have it, may not. How important is it? Because, again, it's a very different situation than the plane crashes that we've seen in the past.

SOUCIE: It's very important, because of the fact they need to know if IFF system, if friend or foe system, was working on the aircraft. Had they been monitoring that and it was not on, on the aircraft, it could have been mistaken as a military airplane.

BERMAN: The new fanciful claim from the ministry there was a Ukrainian jet flying by. Perhaps if that was the case, on these black boxes, there might be some evidence of communication.

SOUCIE: Very much so and warnings as well. If warnings had been attempted to the aircraft, they were tuned to the wrong station or -- excuse me, the radio frequencies and not able to receive that. All of this comes into play. And if it's not available, again, it goes back to the credibility of that evidence.

PEREIRA: I was just thinking about this. It's one thing to investigate a crash. It's another thing to be investigating with all of these mitigating and powerful forces at play.

David Soucie, we appreciate it, thank you so much.

BERMAN: Four days, is that too much?

SOUCIE: It's way too much. Primarily because of the dignity of the people that are there.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: David Soucie, great to have you. Really appreciate it.

SOUCIE: Thanks you.

PEREIRA: Want to say thank you for joining us for a truncated version of @THISHOUR. So glad you could join us. I'm Michaela Pereira.

BERMAN: I'm John Berman. Anderson Cooper begins special coverage right now of the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines flight 17. It begins after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)