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Don Lemon Tonight

Train Leaves Donetsk with MH-17 Victims' Bodies; UN Security Council Adopts New Resolution; Obama Pushes for Immediate Ceasefire in Gaza; Family of MH-17 Victim Speaks Out

Aired July 21, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALYSYN CAMEROTA, CNN TV ANCHOR: First in Seattle then heading to San Francisco and Los Angeles trying to raise millions of dollars. The White House insists that the President will not let up on the pressure he's applying Vladimir Putin and can easily do that from out west. So we will bring you the latest on all of that tomorrow.

DON LEMON, CNN TV ANCHOR: Good evening everyone. Top of the hour, this is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

CAMEROTA: And I'm Alisyn Camerota. Great to be with you.

LEMON: Good to be with you as well. We are all over two big breaking new stories for you this evening.

First, Flight 17. A train carrying the bodies of some victims has left Donetsk. Pro-Russian rebels have handed over the plane's black boxes to Malaysia.

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, the UN Security Council adopts a resolution condemning the downing of the plane and demanding full access to the site.

And our other big story tonight, President Obama pushes for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza as the death toll rises on both sides. Two more Israeli soldiers were filled on Monday bringing the total to 27 and some 573 Palestinians have been killed.

So let's begin with the latest news in the Flight 17 crash investigation. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh joins us on the phone live from Kharkiv. Nick, what's the latest?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know at this stage that at 3:10 local time, that's around 8 o'clock at your time, the train carrying over 200 of the bodies of the victims of Flight 17 departed from Donetsk, the (inaudible) stronghold that took a different route from one that anticipated or expected to travel straight to Kharkiv that are still now going to be heading in that direction but a lot of time (inaudible).

There has been a lot of conflicting information about when the train was supposed to leave, what direction it was taking. What we do understand is that it has left and it probably will take at least seven hours that it make its way towards Kharkiv where it will be met by an increasingly large number of Australian, Dutch experts here, counselor officials, those trying to go through the extraordinarily grim and difficult task of taking these bodies which are now a number of days that they died of the missile attack on that plane and putting them into what we understand will be some special coffins flown in by the Dutch and then military on a number of planes that you know, arriving one by one in the Kharkiv airport here.

It's unclear if they will be identified here through various technical means by the Dutch experts here or they'll be shipped back to the Netherlands where that identification process will continue.

CAMEROTA: And of course, most of the victims are from the Netherlands. Nick, are there any victim's family members in Kharkiv there tonight?

WALSH: Not that we have seen and I have to say if they were, I'm sure they'll be keeping the reason really low profile, that various distraction time (inaudible). We'll be -- having to see many of those and we're told there aren't that many. Many of the councilor officials and experts here say, "Look, they're trying to make sure that the job of repatriating those bodies takes place as efficiently and as dignifiedly as possible in extraordinary formatted time.

With that, one of the Dutch soldiers we spoke to who's coming here said something, "My country is -- at a loss, tragic times, very, very sad indeed", he said.

CAMEROTA: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you and let us know when that train arrives. Thank you.

LEMON: President Barack Obama turning up the heat on Russia over the Flight 17 investigation. Is that working? Our Senior White House Correspondent Jim Acosta joins us now.

Jim, good evening to you. How important are the black boxes to the White House?

JIM ACOSTA, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well Don, I think the news of the black boxes were turned over. We'll do little to satisfy White House officials at a background briefing that I attended with reporters earlier in the day. Senior administration officials said those flight recorders are only going to show so much as one official put it, they are not sure whether those black boxes can definitely say what brought the plane down.

Instead, this official said they're much more interested in the wreckage at the crash site and that's why you heard the President say that international investigators need to have unfettered access to that scene.

LEMON: All right. Jim Acosta, standby because I want you to weigh in on something. Now that the black boxes from Flight 17 appear to be in investigator's hands, what will they be able to learn about how the plane went down and who might be the blame for it?

CNN Deborah Feyerick has that for you.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aware the worlds was watching, the self-proclaimed Prime Minister of Donetsk's rebel- held territory returned Flight 17 data recorders to Malaysian officials.

Flight data in voice cockpit boxes will be as crucial to the investigation as the wreckage itself. The pieces likely to determine the type of missile fired from the launcher. The experts like New York Times aviation writer, Matthew Wald.

MATTHEW WALD, NEW YORKS TIME AVIATION WRITER: The proximity missile would have sent shrapnel into the plane and you can see entry holes and exit holes in the metal if you know what you're looking for if you can find the metal if it's still there.

FEYERICK: Though it's too soon to tell, unlike a heat-seeking missile which would lock on to an engine, the proximity missile is a high explosive radar-guided warhead that detonates near the aircraft. Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona is a retired Air Force Intelligence.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET)., CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The standard SA11 warhead is 150 pounds of high explosive fragmentation. In other words, the casing of the warhead itself will turn into shrapnel when the warhead explodes.

FEYERICK: Francona says the BUK launcher typically uses these type missiles. Instead of a midair fireball, the shrapnel tears holes in the aircraft leaving large sections intact.

FRANCONA: If these pieces would have hit the fuel tanks, it could have cost a midair explosion. But what we saw was the fuselage coming apart and falling in large pieces.

FEYERICK: Experts say thick black smoke from the fire was likely the fuselage after it hit the ground.

We think of another crash, the Korean Airline crash where people were still alive after it was hit by an air-to-air missile. Is there the possibility that people were aware for a second, two seconds of what had happened?

FRANCONA: It's possible. As the aircraft broke up, if you were still strapped in to your seat, you would realize something terrible was happening but you would assume those consciousness because of the altitude at which you were.

FEYERICK: The length of the six-mile debris trail suggests the plain may have remained airborne for as long as 40 seconds as Francona ...

WALD: In the Korean Airline 747 that was shut down by an air-to-air missile fired by a Soviet fighter jet, the crew knew they'd been hit and talked about it. And the cockpit voice recorder persisted for many seconds before the airplane broke up and hit the water.

FEYERICK: Experts say the missile likely took 12 seconds to hit its target 33,000 feet in the air. Even if the pilot saw the missile, because of the plane's size and maneuverability, it's unlikely they would have been able to take any evasive action at all.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN New York.

LEMON: It's a nightmare all around. Imagine seeing it as a pilot and you can't do anything about it. Then as a passenger, even been being aware of it for just a few seconds is horrible.

CAMEROTA: Of course. But when you're at 33,000 feet and you think you're safe ...

LEMON: Right.

CAMEROTA: ... and you're not landing or taking off, it's just horrible to think about. But when we come back, we'll get some more information from Jim Acosta.

At the White House, in a reaction from our experts that we're beginning to make progress in this investigation but what will it take to get justice for the families of the 298 people who were killed?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Welcome back. A train carrying the bodies of some Flight 17 victims is on the move tonight. And rebels have turned over the plane's black boxes. So where does the investigation go next? Back with us is Jim Acosta of CNN. Also, Floyd Wisner of the Wisner Law Firm in Chicago. Mary Schiavo, former Inspector General of the DOT. She's now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents, and David Soucie, CNN Safety Analyst and author of Why Planes Crash?

It's great to have all of you tonight. Jim, we start with you. Has the White House responded to the fact that the rebels have handed over the black box to simulation authorities?

ACOSTA: Not that I know of yet Alisyn and that will be an interesting question for tomorrow. I mean, what the administration officials that I've been talking to are saying is that in addition to the records, they also want to know who fired this missile and they don't know if the black boxes will say that definitively. But beyond that, the White House is saying, "Look, here are no other competing theories for what happened here."

Officials are scuffing at this Russian theories with the crash that the Ukraine warship was possibly in the area of the plane before the crash. And the Russian said -- these administration officials are saying are only harming their global reputation even further with these statements. They're saying who else but the Russians were delivering these heavy weapons across the Border of Cyprus and who else but the separatists in this area that they're controlling in Ukraine could've fired these shots.

So they're just saying if you, you know, sort of deduce what happened here, it only leads to one logical conclusion. CAMEROTA: Meanwhile David, the US intelligence officials tell CNN that, "The black boxes are not going to solve the issue of who downed the Malaysian Airliner." So how will resolve that?

DAVID SOUCIE, SAFETY ANALYST: We're going to have to look at the wreckage on the ground as compromised as it may be. There's going to be some clues that just cannot be disputed or destroyed and that is the entry point and the exit point of the debris from the missile. Remember, the missile doesn't just go through one point, it's scattering shrapnel throughout that aircraft. So as it goes -- enter and it comes out, you can draw a line straight through that and straight back at a specific altitude where no one else (inaudible) it was, you could tell exactly where this missile was launched from.

So that's going to an incredibly important piece of information to get from the accident scene.

CAMEROTA: So Mary, how does a plane crash investigation of which you've dealt with many differ when it's a crime scene?

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL DOT: Oh, because when it's a crime scene, then it literally becomes pretty much who done it much like shows you might see on TV. The crime scene is just a part of it.

The interviews like Pan Am 103, 15,000 interviews, I mean, our firm, we were the last ones in that case and the last in 9/11. There were rewards for information. We bought a terrorist computer at one point. Somebody wanted to sell it. Pan Am 103, they put reward information inside match books and distribute them all the way around where places -- where terrorist might gather or loiter or someone might turn them in.

So this now turns into an international crime investigation and a manhunt.

CAMEROTA: And even if we do determine where the missile came from and who launched the missile, we won't necessarily know why they launched the missile or what went -- if they intended to launch the missile. Here is what the Russian Ambassador to the UN said today about that very fact.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VITALY CHURKIN, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR: That according to them, the people from these (inaudible) would assume that they shot down (inaudible). So (inaudible) shot down the military jet, there was confusion. And there was confusion, it was not an act of terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Floyd, in case you couldn't hear exactly what he was saying, he said, "It was confusion. Confusion is not an act of terrorism. How does that differ legally for the families seeking (inaudible)?"

FLOYD WISNER, WISNER LAW FIRM CHICAGO: Legally, it doesn't differ at all. The primary source for the parties -- the passenger's families to obtain compensations is going to be Malaysia -- the airline. And that airline is going to be responsible because it failed to take all necessary measures to avoid this loss.

That's the standard under the Montreal conventioneers even a stricter standard under the EA regulation for those European deseed (ph). And so, Malaysia Air is going to be responsible to pay all these damages and whether or not it was a mistake or intentional act, it won't matter.

CAMEROTA: But Floyd, you said they did not take all necessary measures to avoid this loss, how?

WISNER: Well, because they're flying a particular route over that particular territory.

CAMEROTA: But...

WAGNER: Now, I know that others airlines were doing the same thing but other airlines also did risk assessments of deciding not to do it. And I think you only have to prove just that Malaysia Airlines is only partly responsible -- just partly. And because of that it's definitely apparently responsible. And we'll to make compensation.

CAMEROTA: Mary, what do you think about that? Weren't they at an altitude that was supposed to be safe?

SCHIAVO: Well, no. That mean the information was out there. I agree with Floyd. The information was out there that it was not safe. In fact, it was banned up to 32,000 feet. So they go up to 33,000 feet.

I mean, there's not a jury in the world is going to believe that 1000 feet is a safe measure. I mean, when you're just learning to fly for example, you can stray from your altitude pretty easily by 1000 feet.

No, I don't think anybody is going to buy that that was enough measure of safety and I wouldn't be so quick too to assume that the terrorist -- and I think there are terrorist that shot this down just because maybe they thought it was something else.

If you can be so, you know, so horrible is just to willy-nilly shoot off weapons then you can be I think convicted. It's just the different level and a different level of crime but I wouldn't be so sure that they will not be caught and I think they will be punished someday. Remember took a long time to catch them all from Pan Am 103 and from 9/11.

CAMEROTA: It sure did. David, why were they flying such a dangerous route?

SOUCIE: In my opinion and what information they had available to them and all the other airlines had available to them, there was no worries and that they would have known a -- nor would of reasonable person expect them to know that there was a SA 11 pointed at them from the ground.

They...

CAMEROTA: There are other planes had been shot down just that week.

SOUCIE: None that they would be a aware of, none that they would knew it was -- all of those planes were well below 21, 000 feet not 32,000 feet and they were suspected to be shot down by much smaller armament and at the -- either to take off for the landing or at the bombing run type of the situation.

It had nothing to do with their craft that were at altitude and there is no reason my estimation for them to believe the Malaysian Airlines nor the other four carriers who -- the other 853 flights and flew of that exact the same route within the previous seven days -- why those people think that it was a separate and some kind of other risk assessment.

My job and whole has been developing the safety management risk system with the Federal Aviation Administration. I mean, expert risk management. That's what I do. And I don't feel -- I understand I'm not a lawyer and I'm sure there's different perspective legally...

CAMEROTA: Yeah.

SOUCIE: ... than what I'm saying but I don't believe that.

CAMEROTA: But let me ask Floyd about that. Floyd, do you agree or disagree with what David saying about the risk assessment there?

WAGNER: No, I have to respectfully disagree with David. I understand his point about risk assessment. But let me ask you, if you and I run that plane would we say, well, some of that risk assessment basically it's probably not going to happen.

That would walk particularly if you're Malaysia Air that where it's had a horrific loss just a few months ago -- you should've been ultra sensitive. What does it does it hurt to go around the different route just for the possibilities of flight that could happen? You go around, that what a lot of airlines do. Not 853 flights.

SOUCIE: Not 853 flights.

SCHIAVO: Guys, in commonsense does 1000 feet really...

CAMEROTA: You make a great point, Mary. Jim, Mary, David, Floyd, we have to leave it there. Thanks so much for weighing in on all of this tonight.

LEMON: Western leaders are dulling up of the pressure on Vladimir Putin. We're going to here from two experts on his responding next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back. Western leaders are pointing fingers at Vladimir Putin for his support of the rebels in Ukraine but they stop short of outright blaming him for the crash of Flight 17. I'm joined now by Philip Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst and former CIA counterterrorism official, and also Matthew Rojansky, who is Director of the Kennan Institute at the Wilson Center. Welcome gentlemen.

Matthew, you first, yesterday British Prime Minister David Cameron wrote an op ed in the Sunday Times. It's called the plane crash and the aftermath, an outrage made in Moscow. Is he right?

MATTHEW ROJANSKY, DIRECTOR OF KENNAN INSTITUTE, WILSON CTR: You know the ambiguity that surrounds the connection between the Kremlin and the activities of the rebels and then beyond that, this particular missile launch and the results of that I think is still very much there.

The challenge is without a thorough investigation at least as far as this launch is concerned we're not going to know just how close the connection went to Moscow.

The broader picture and I think this is the argument that Mr. Cameron has made, this is the argument that President Obama, Vice President Biden and others have made is that by not shutting down the border, by giving rhetorical and political and they themselves admitted, material support. They're saying it's been nonlethal support but the Russians acknowledge that they have given material support to the rebels. They're creating the conditions for something like this to happen.

So, the argument would be the Russians have created an overall environment and thus, they bear a kind of political, moral, perhaps even legal responsibility for doing this.

LEMON: But Philip, is it really that ambiguous?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERROSIM ANALYST: I think there is two pieces of this you have to look at. The first is capability. Did the Russians give the opposition the capability to shoot down the aircraft in terms about the equipment of the training?

My judgment is yes. The second question which is really the heart of the matter, did anybody have the intent to take down a civilian aircraft? I can't believe the answer is yes. I doubt we'll ever know the answer to that. But on the first question, the intelligence about capability, did the Russians enable to shoot down? I think the news is tightening around Putin's throat.

LEMON: Do you know what, Matthew, at least we have seen it seems to be a slightly more conciliatory response from Moscow yesterday and today, Putin urging cooperation and then the U.N. ambassador saying, "If this happened it was confusion and not terrorism." Do you think that Putin has calculated that this was a no-win situation for him?

ROJANSKY: I think he finds himself now in a situation where he's effectively let the genie out of the bottle. Everything I just described that he's done has created circumstances where a lot of what's being done in his name in the interest of Russia allegedly actually makes his life a lot harder. And I think for that reason Putin might be reconsidering whether he wants to have his hand and glove relationship with the separatists but not so much because the West is pressuring him with sanctions and telling him he's got to pull back, but simply because he doesn't necessarily see the percentage in it anymore.

The advantage maybe if Putin decides to back off a little bit from the separatists at the same time that he's willing to contemplate a ceasefire for long enough that we can actually establish some of the facts that Philip mentioned. I mean, if you can actually prove a direct Russian training connection equipping, supplying the rebels that results in this particular shoot down, that it's not a random accident in the case of the fog of war then I think in fact, it's very appropriate for the international community to go after Moscow.

Otherwise, I would take it as an open hand. This is Putin saying, "Look, there's been a tragic situation. You know, let's investigate it. Let's try and negotiate." That's potentially productive.

LEMON: But I assume given a caveat there, one of those having said that because Philip, you know, at the same time Russians said today that they have evidence that a Ukrainian fighter jet was flying in the area of MH17. Is the implication here that it still could have been Ukraine behind this?

MUDD: I don't think so. I think what the Russians are trying to do and I completely agree with the comments we're hearing here. They're trying to figure out what to do in response to increasing evidence that shows they're responsible, in response to the President the Congress saying, we're going to post sanctions and most surprisingly in response to the Europeans, David Cameron and maybe the Germans and others tomorrow in Europe saying, "Hey, the evidence is getting clearer and clearer. You're trying to figure out the way out."

Let me tell you, Don, there's one piece here that I think is significant and that is, we can sit here and talk about what the United States is saying about the intelligence case what Putin knows or doesn't know. Let me tell you from 30 years in doing this, 25 years at the CIA, behind the scenes, the U.S. government knows a lot more than they're saying in terms of Russian culpability and Putin knows that we know .

LEMON: OK. But ...

MUDD: So, behind the scenes -- go ahead, yeah please.

LEMON: Well, let's listen to the President today. You said that, you know, U.S. government knows more than we think they don't. The President today and then Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko both made strong statements and then, we'll talk about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Russia and President Putin in particular has direct responsibility to compel them to cooperate with the investigation. That is the least that they can do. PETRO POROSHENKO, UKRAINE PRESIDENT: Prime number one is that terroristic attack itself where a terrorist supported by the Russian launched a rocket missile, a surface-to-air missile against the civilian Malaysian plane which brings 219 victims.

Prime number two, and it is a disaster. The way how the bodies, innocent bodies including the 80 children were treated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Philip, I cut you off. That is as emphatical words that we've heard from leaders about who's responsible and how they're handing the investigation.

MUDD: Yes, I think what we've got going on here is the President is dealing with the Europeans and others to try and figure out whether the Europeans, especially the Germans. I think they're lynchpins here are going to fall behind him on sanctions. I think behind the scenes the intelligence he's receiving is compelling.

But at this point, until he sees what the Europeans are going to do, I don't think he wants to get to far out in front because he is trying to figure out how much of a consensus we have. The intelligence case here increasingly starting on Friday and through the weekend is becoming less and less significant. The question now is, is Angela Merkel going to lead the Europeans in the tougher sanctions and that's what we'll see tomorrow.

LEMON: All right. Philip and Matthew, thank you very much.

ROJANSKY: Take care.

MUDD: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: So Don, as you know, Secretary of State John Kerry is in the Middle East. He is trying to get Israel and Hamas stop the deadly violence. A live update from Jerusalem on whether a ceasefire is now possible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: All right, we have some breaking news on the violent showdown in Gaza, two more Israeli soldiers were killed on Monday bringing the total to 27, some 573 Palestinians have been killed.

Meanwhile, Secretary of State John Kerry is in Cairo tonight trying to broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. CNN's Martin Savidge joins us live from Jerusalem. Martin, what's the latest at this hour?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Alisyn. Well, I think you know hopes of a ceasefire, they are always -- both sides would say that. Israel certainly would maintain that it would like to see a ceasefire. It's already for one right now.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that look, Israel has agreed to a ceasefire twice already in this ongoing conflict and in both cases Israel has said that it was Hamas that broke the deal. So in other words, they say Israelis are for a ceasefire, Hamas is not.

That's not totally incorrect. Hamas says it's for a ceasefire as well but under certain conditions and those conditions might include opening of the orders, the free flow of people and goods between Gaza and Israel, in other words a lifting of the land and sea blockade.

The problem with any kind of condition set to a ceasefire, Israel wouldn't like that because then it could be perceived that Hamas had gained some kind of victory and Israel definitely does not want that to happen. So it is all in the details here.

CAMEROTA: Of course.

SAVIDGE: And right now, those details are still being worked up.

CAMEROTA: So has something changed since last week when Hamas didn't agree to the ceasefire that warranted John Kerry, Secretary of State, heading over to Cairo tonight?

SAVIDGE: Well, not that we've heard. I mean again, I don't know what the specific negotiations are that are being talked about. A couple of things should be noted. Hamas is going to be very suspicious of any deal which Egypt is a part of here. It definitely can be said that there is a falling out, if you will, between Hamas leadership and the Egyptian government here. So they're not going to like trusting any deal the Egyptians help to broker.

Then on top of that, I think there are going to be real concerns as to if it's just an end of the shooting, Hamas would say that gains nothing for the Palestinian people, they would be opposed to that. So right now there's a lot of talk at ceasefire but seeing it implemented, I'm not sure people are truly optimistic about that.

CAMEROTA: All right. Let's hope that something can happen tomorrow to break the impasse. Martin Savidge, thank you.

LEMON: Appreciate it, Martin. Israel blames Hamas for civilian deaths in Gaza. We're encouraging people to stay in their homes after Israeli forces have warned of impending air strike.

Join me now as Ron Dermer, Israel's ambassador to the U.S. and a former senior adviser to Primer Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Thanks for joining us.

RON DERMER, FMR SENIOR ADVISER TO PM BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: Thank you for having me on your show, Don.

LEMON: There's been a terrible loss of life of both Palestinian and Israeli, mostly Palestinian though since the beginning of this round of hostilities. The question is, when will it end?

DERMER: Listen, we hope it can end soon. We didn't have an operation to begin with and that's why the Prime Minister about two weeks ago said that quiet would be met quiet. Unfortunately, that led to a lot of rocket attacks on Israel. And then you had an Egyptian ceasefire proposal about a week ago that Israel accepted. The Arab League supported, the international community also supported it and unfortunately, Hamas did not agree to it.

We've had some U.N. humanitarian ceasefires and a Red Cross ceasefire, both of them were breached by Hamas so we will hope that Hamas will agree to the Egyptian proposals and will stop firing rockets at Israel.

It's not so difficult to understand how this comes to an end.

LEMON: Mr. Ambassador, with all due respect, let's talk about the lives that are being lost, right, because we understand it's Hamas and Hamas is a terrorist group, everyone gets that.

But more than 500 Palestinian casualties so far, the U.N. is estimating that 70 percent of the deaths of civilians or injuries, they had been civilians. How many civilian deaths are too many?

DERMER: Look, you said that everyone understands that Hamas is a terror organization, I hope that's the case, I don't know if everyone standards exactly how Hamas is fighting this war.

It's not that they're just deliberately targeting our civilians. They're embedding themselves in civilian Arabs. They're putting missile batteries next to hospitals, next to mosques, next to schools. We had a U.N. school, U.N. school last week had 20 Hamas rockets in.

They're the ones who are putting their civilians in harm's way. They're using them as human shields. We're doing everything, Don, to take their civilians get them out of harm's way. We dropped leaflets, flyers, sent text messages, made phone calls, we're doing everything.

They're saying ignore the warnings of the IDF, stay there. You know this area where there were a lot of people who were killed in the last 24-48 hours, we told all of those civilians to get out. We gave them 48 hours to leave because we had to go in with our ground forces and obviously, in ground forces fighting there can be many more civilian casualties.

Not a single person should have been there.

LEMON: Let's move on and talk about, if you can clarify this because Hamas claimed that they have kidnapped an Israeli soldier but Israel says that is not true. Can you say definitively that no soldier has been taken?

DERMER: To the best information that I have right now at this point no soldier has been taken.

LEMON: OK. Secretary of State Kerry is now in Egypt. He's trying to broker a ceasefire and end the crisis. There are conflicting accounts about a possible deal. What kind of terms will Israel accept to stop fighting and withdraw from Gaza?

DERMER: Look, the Egyptians put a proposal forward and it basically said to stop the rocket fire and then 48 hours later, everyone would go to Cairo and they could raise any issues that they wanted to raise and that was something that Israel's cabinet accepted and as I said that proposal was accepted also by the Arab League.

It was not simple, Don. I want you to understand something. If you had 200 million Americans under rocket fire, a ceasefire proposal that would come from the outside is not something that would be simple for an American president to agree to when you've got a terror organization on contiguous territory firing 2,000 rockets at your civilians. But, the Prime Minister of Israel went against the political headwinds and decided to accept the ceasefire.

LEMON: If Hamas agrees to a ceasefire, will Israel withdraw from Gaza?

DERMER: Of course. We didn't want to be in there to begin with. We left Gaza in 2005. Israel withdrew its military, withdrew its settlements. Look, we did, Don, everything that the international community says Israel needs to do for peace.

LEMON: OK. I get it ...

DERMER: Go back to the 67 lines.

LEMON: You answered it. I get it, I get it, I get it.

DERMER: People sometimes forget what happened here. We were not in Gaza. We didn't want to be in Gaza. When we agreed to the ceasefire a week ago ...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Mr. Ambassador, with all due respect, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about now, the ground action that you have. So, I understand what you're saying ...

DERMER: We took the ground -- But that's what I'm telling you. We took the ground action because they rejected the ceasefire.

LEMON: You've made your point. OK. Secretary Kerry was caught by Hot Mic yesterday's sarcastically referencing the Israel's pinpoint missile strikes. I want you to take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, US SECRETARY OF STATE: It's a hell of a pinpoint operation, it's a hell of a pinpoint operation.

JONATHAN FINER, STATE DEPARTMENT DEPUTY: Right. It's escalating significantly. It just underscores the need for a ceasefire.

KERRY: We've got to get over there. Thank you, John. I think, John, we ought to go tonight. I think it's crazy to be sitting around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What do you make of that moment?

DERMER: Well, listen. I don't know the context and I don't what he was saying. I can tell you I personally spoke to the Secretary. We've been in touch with him everyday. You heard his public comments about Israel's right to defend itself and he understands that and he's made a larger point as well.

He is somebody who's fought wars and he knows what it's like to fight in wars and a lot of times you have civilian casualties and war that no one wants to see. Maybe don't want to accept for Hamas because what Hamas wants to do is have a lot of civilian casualties. And they use the strategy of human shields for a reason because they think it works. They think that Israel will be blind for these civilian casualties. And they will achieve something by having Israel pressured and Israel blind by those casualties.

I hope that that doesn't happen. I appreciate the strong support we've gotten from both the President and the Secretary for Israel's right to defend itself.

LEMON: All right. I want to ask you about that because Michael Orn who's a former Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. and now a CNN analyst has written an op ed decrying the international media as complicit and Hamas' plan essentially, but using the media being tools of Hamas propaganda effort because it broadcast pictures of civilian deaths. Clearly, you see that the same way then.

DERMER: I do. But I don't, I don't -- first of all that's separate categories. Hamas intends to harm Palestinian civilians and to harm Israeli civilians. The more civilians they killed the better for them. If civilian -- Palestinian civilians die and they can use that in their propaganda campaign against Israel, so be it. The media is different.

The media is obviously looking for a story. You have these heart- wrenching photos, you have a Palestinian civilian who's killed, you have four kids who would be killed on a beach. Obviously, everybody feels that. I see a picture like that, it's very hard. But, in placing the blame on Israel, they are unwitting accomplices to what Hamas is trying to do. And ultimately, what that will do is send a message to Hamas and terror organizations everywhere by the way, that if you use human shields, that strategy will work.

The issue is who do you put the blame on? You are now speaking to Israel's ambassador. You asked me about civilian casualties. The address for civilian casualties is Hamas.

Why did you put missiles next to a hospital? Why are you using the children's ...

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Mr. Ambassador, with all due respect, I asked you about civilian casualties. That was one of my first questions. The last question I asked you about was what Michael Orn said about the media. I asked you about the media coverage of this particularly.

DERMER: I know. I don't blame the media in any way for covering the issue. I don't have a problem with the media putting those pictures on television. The question is who will those pictures pressure? Will pressure be brought to bear on Israel or will it be brought to bear on Hamas. Hamas should be responsible for the use of human shields.

They are putting missiles and military command centers in hospitals for crying out loud. That's something that the world should be outraged about, not outraged at Israel for defending itself against this rocket attack, but outraged at Hamas for using its own people as human shields.

LEMON: I think the thing is people who are watching the media may not have such a, let's say, stake in all of these and they're looking at pictures of people who are just being injured and they're saying, "People are people regardless of whether you are Palestinian or Israeli and it's awful to see."

DERMER: I agree, I agree. But understand what the consequences could be. If human shields is an effective strategy, it'll be used again and again. And if human shields is not an effective strategy it's less likely to be used. That's the simple truth.

LEMON: Ambassador Dermer, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

DERMER: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: It is impossible for this topic not to get heated.

LEMON: Yeah.

CAMEROTA: I mean you did a great job. But, obviously it's always a heated topic.

LEMON: What if we're going to work together. My thing is that I hate people to come on and give me talking points or not to answer my question directly or answer it, you know, with another question.

CAMEROTA: That is annoying.

LEMON: My question directly and don't give me talking points. But, once I realize if we come on, you're going to have, you know, people have their ...

CAMEROTA: Message that they want to get out.

LEMON: Their own message that they want to get cross. And the ambassador did a great job, but that's my thing. And he was very -- afterwards, he's like I like coming on with you because you really get in there. And so, I didn't mind at all.

CAMEROTA: That's great. Good to know.

LEMON: Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: My pleasure. There were, as you know, 298 people aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. They included researchers who dedicated their lives to fighting AIDS, there were families on vacations. And there were 80 children. We have the story of the children now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: The Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 took off from Amsterdam and 193 of the passengers who were killed were Dutch nationals. Including the nephews of Harun Calehr. Harun was at a gathering today in the Netherlands with the Prime Minister, the Queen and the King and he joins us now via Skype.

Harun, thanks so much for being here. You lost, as we said, your two nephews, 19-year-old Shaka (ph), 10-year-old Miguel. What were they doing on that plane? Where were they going?

HARUN CALEHR, UNCLE OF MH-17 PASSENGERS (via Skype): Hi, Alisyn. They were going to Bali, Indonesia to -- vacation with my grandmother -- their grandmother, I'm sorry, my mother who owns a vacation home there.

CAMEROTA: Can you tell us about -- you were looking at pictures now of your nephews. Can you tell us about them?

CALEHR: Well, it's a picture of my eldest nephew, Shaka (ph) and my sister Samira (ph). And, you know, what's there to say, I mean, they have a beautiful voice, they were hardworking students. He had just finished his first year of college. He was majoring Textile Engineering. And he was just full of life. He was so excited about meeting up with his grandmother. She was his favorite grandchild, her first grandchild.

And he was also a really good big brother, I mean, you know, Miguel is only 10, had just turned 11 on April 23. So he was worried about the trip and he had some premonition about the safety of the flight and he was scared.

CAMEROTA: What did he tell you about that premonition?

CALEHR: It was eerie, I mean, even after going through passport control, he ran back to my sister and said, "Mama I'm scared. I don't want to, you know, crash in the flight. You know, if I were to die, what should I answer to God?" And he asked me something. I just said, "Don't be silly. You've flown so many times and you know, your big brother is there. You'll be fine and, you know, see you very soon in a few weeks and enjoy yourself."

CAMEROTA: That's so hard to hear and we understand that they were good kids as you're saying that they would do their household chores, they would help their mom, they would cook with her, all the things that you hope for in your sons.

We also, as we mentioned, you attended a family meeting with the Prime Minister and the King and Queen of the Netherlands. Tell us about that meeting today.

CALEHR: It was very pertinent, I mean, you know, there's a lot of anger and frustration among the audience but, you know, it was a very nice gesture, I think, by the government. And just by -- happens then that the Queen actually gave my sister a hug and they start crying together and she comforted her and said that, "You know, I've got children myself. I can't even imagine how you must feel and, you know, God bless you." And she was very, very nice.

And, you know, the Prime Minister, he was very acceptable. He was building all the questions that were posted by family members and he was very transparent. And, you know, he just admitted a lot of times that he did not know people wanted to know when the train with the remains would be allowed to depart from the crash site at the time that he gave the press conference, I mean, the meeting with the family members. He did not know.

But again, yes, people obviously were sad and they wanted answers but I think they did their best to try to answer everyone's questions.

CAMEROTA: Well, Harun Calehr, we understand that that train with your nephew's remains is now headed from the crash site to an airport and hopefully, home to Amsterdam sooner. We hope that gives your family some small measure of relief. Thanks so much for talking with us tonight and sharing your nephew's with us.

CALEHR: Thanks for having us, Alisyn. I appreciate it.

LEMON: (Inaudible) from those families and, you know what I mean, to just ...

CAMEROTA: And receive pictures of them looking so lively.

LEMON: Yes. (Inaudible) they come on and they want to pay tribute to them and I think that's fantastic that they do that. And tragically though Alisyn, 80 children died in the crash of Flight 17 and we just heard from the uncle of two of them. CNN's Alexandra Field. Inside Stories.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN ANCHOR: A 17-year old Dutch girl killed, her grief-stricken father sieving in an open letter addressed to Vladimir Putin, the separatist and the Ukrainian government. "Thank you very much for murdering my loved and only child. She was on her way to her holiday together with her little brother, her mom and her stepfather. She has been shot out of the sky in an unknown country where there is a war going on."

So many lives lost, so much innocence taken. 80 young ones, three infants on board Flight 17. Just a baby, Elena Hutson (ph) mourned in Bali along with her parents. Samuel (ph), a Dutch boy liked gymnastics. Emilia Vandemoortel (ph) is seen here riding a horse. There are teddy bears in their honor and parents with searing pain.

(Inaudible) said goodbye to their mom and dad in Amsterdam. Their grandfather Nick Norris (ph) would take them home to Australia for the start of a new school year.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gentle, clever, beautiful kids. FIELD: Entire families gone together. John Paulson and his wife Yuli

Hastini (ph) died with their son, Martin Arjuna (ph) and their little girl, Sherie (ph).

Smiling here in a family photo, young Australians Pierce (ph), Mornics (ph) and Margaux Bendenanda (ph) traveling with their parents. There are heavy hearts around the world for the young victims.

PETER VAN DEN BURG, VAN DEN NEIGHBOR: The community is still in shock and deep -- fairly a deep level of shock because it wasn't a well- known (inaudible). It is -- and I think people are still trying to handle the situation.

FIELD: Tributes in the Netherlands for a fallen family of six. Outside this Dutch school, a memorial for a beloved teacher, her husband and their three children. Two sisters from another family, Alma Bolts (ph) and Yinta Bolts (ph) died together. Somebody's Minnie Mouse left behind. Someone's monkey, memories of everyone. So many small reminders of a love that will be felt for generations.

Alexandra Field, CNN New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: That's it for us. We'll see you back here tomorrow night.

CAMERORA: And so, CNN throughout the night for the latest breaking news on Flight 17 and the conflict in Gaza.

LEMON: CNN "NEWSROOM" with Erin Burnett and Amara Walker starts, right now.