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Dr. Drew
Boy Ate Bugs from Porch to Survive; Hot Car Dad: What Does Surveillance Video Show?
Aired July 21, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a 7-year-old who weighs 20 pounds. A walking skeleton who ate bug to survive. Who are the
people responsible for this?
Plus, new information about hot car dad. What does the surveillance tape really reveal? The behavior bureau is here.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host is Samantha Schacher.
And coming up, a father takes the law into his own hands, beats up a teen he says was sexually assaulting his son.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes, Dr. Drew, that picture has gone viral. We`ll hear from the victim`s mother. She will join us exclusively
tonight.
PINSKY: Fantastic.
The first story is a seven-year-old boy weighing just 25 pounds, as you heard on the open. He was rescued from his home. Police say he was
starved and batten by his mother and two grandparents. He was apparently, allegedly so desperate for food he was scavenging and ate insects from his
front porch. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think anybody who goes after children should get the same treatment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Revelations about what was going on in this house are tough to swallow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not want to see children hurt and there`s no excuse for it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donna Wagner goes to church nearby. She says she can`t fathom how any mother could let a child starve, especially with
three other children in the house.
Reports say the boy was not only nearly starved but also abused. According to the "Sharon Herald", the boy`s mother and grandparents are
charged with several crimes, including assault, false imprisonment and unlawful restraint of a minor.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: The child`s father is going to be here with us exclusively in the few minutes.
But first, joining us, Vanessa Barnett, social commentator, host of HipHollywood.com, Loni Coombs, attorney, author of "You`re Perfect and
Other Lies Parents Tell", and Yasmin Vossoughian, HLN correspondent.
This child was discovered when children and youth services received a call that there was, quote, "a child who looked like a human skeleton."
Vanessa, reaction.
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: I mean, literally, I saw the story and I was immediately in tears. I can`t fathom how not only a mother but
the grandparents are on board to do this kind of abuse to a child. I just don`t understand it.
PINSKY: I got to agree, I don`t understand it either. I`ve spent a good deal of time trying to get my head around it. And I will offer some
theories in a minute. But according to the affidavit of probable cause compiled by investigators, the seven-year-old child was beaten within a
belt each time he tried to get food, he was fed an occasional chunk of tuna or egg, he was punished with ice showers and forced to sleep in the
basement with the family cat.
Neighbors told local media they didn`t even know that the child existed.
Loni, where is that report coming from? We believe it`s accurate. And how is that possible if it is?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, apparently, a woman just walking her dog in the neighborhood saw this little boy and she thought it was a
human skeleton, called police. Thank heavens she called police because apparently the parents took the little boy out of school for over a year
ago. So, he`s been going through this for at least a year.
So, Child Protective Services went in, they took the child out. They interviewed the other children in the home. There`s three other siblings
who are apparently healthy. And they`re giving a lot of this information along with the victims. So, it`s trustworthy.
Apparently, we`ll learn more. But the doctors confirmed. He was taken to the hospital.
PINSKY: Well, now, hang on a second. What are the doctors confirming? Because I`ve got lots of questions about what the kid`s
medical status was. We can`t get to the medical records at this stage of the investigation. So, we really don`t know medically what`s going on, do
we?
COOMBS: Well, but we do have some codes from one of the doctors and one of the doctors that`s examined this baby said, look, all of us agree
this was horrible malnutrition, this was starvation.
PINSKY: Well, but why? Samantha, you have a reaction?
SCHACHER: Well, Dr. Drew, the doctors are comparing this poor child to that of a Holocaust survivor. This kid was living in a real house of
horrors.
PINSKY: Why? How?
SCHACHER: I don`t know.
You brought up that he was homeschooled this past year. So, what kinds of checks and balances and protocols are there? When kids are
homeschooled, does anybody check the well-being of the child periodically? Because essentially, you could just hide a kid and neglect and abuse them.
COOMBS: That`s exactly right and that`s why some of them are homeschooled. Now, usually, they can have a camera so that the teachers
can see what was going on. But in this case, there was no camera. So, the teachers will not able to see who was actually taking the courses. We
don`t even know if this was child or perhaps another child logging in in his place.
PINSKY: The average weight for a seven-year-old boy is about 50 pounds. As Sam said, the physicians treating the child says he was about
half that and would have had a cardiac arrest, which I agree, within a month if left untreated. He had abscessed teeth.
Yasmin, what do you think about this story?
YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I`ve actually like to look at into the abuse of the mom. I think this is probably an inherent,
systematic abuse that happens with this family. The grandparents were abusing this kid, the mom was abusing this kid and now this poor seven-
year-old kid was found 25 pounds?
I really think this is something that`s been happening within the family. I think it`s really reflected in the fact that other extended
family members never said anything. There`s a lack of community --
BARNETT: That`s not true.
PINSKY: Vanessa, what say you?
BARNETT: The mother-in-law -- the ex-mother-in-law reported this woman.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Mother-in-law, but we`re not talking about blood family.
BARNETT: But it doesn`t matter. She cares for this child, too.
VOSSOUGHIAN: It does matter.
BARNETT: She reported it and she reported it twice.
They dropped the ball and on top of that, I don`t think this is grandmother abused the daughter, the daughter abused this child. No, I
think this is maybe a revenge, I hate your father and I hate you now, because the other three kids were fine.
PINSKY: Or, Loni, is it possible that it wasn`t that bad back then so the speak when they initially reported this or wasn`t as obvious?
COOMBS: No, I think this was horrible, Dr. Drew. I don`t think you can in any way excuse this or justify it or downplay it. Look, there were
three other children in home that were healthy, they knew how to take care of children. This is a targeted abuse to one child in particular.
PINSKY: As usual, I can`t believe this.
(CROSSTALK)
COOMBS: There are. There are evil people.
PINSKY: But this is so weird. It`s so narrow.
Yasmin?
VOSSOUGHIAN: I think it would be targeted abuse because there`s something inherent that they saw within the kid that they`re playing
forward in a really negative awful way.
SCHACHER: Yes.
VOSSOUGHIAN: So I think they`re targeting this kid for a certain reason. Whatever the reason is, I don`t know. But I think it`s for a
certain reason. And I would be remiss to think that there wasn`t some sort of abuse in the history --
PINSKY: Well, of course. Of course. Yasmin, look, what you`re saying is matter of fact to me is when there`s abuse in the home it`s
generational. That`s where abuse comes from. People don`t -- unless they have a brain tumor or something they don`t start abusing kids. It`s not
something we typical do.
But, Sam, did you see that tweet a second ago, with the kid was eating bugs off the porch. Why wasn`t this reported sooner?
SCHACHER: You know what, Dr. Drew? Because I think people did not know he existed because they kept him inside. They homeschooled him and
that`s why you wish that there would be some sort of protocol. But why the hell are these three out on bond? They tortured their kid. They almost
murdered --
PINSKY: They`re out on bail.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Loni, they`re out amongst us. Is that OK with you?
COOMBS: No, it`s not OK. It`s no OK but the charges filed allowed for a lower bail and they were able to get out. But, honestly, I look at
this as this was almost a way to try and kill this child. But that`s not the charges.
PINSKY: Listen, here`s the deal. The boy`s father is here. He may have known something. If he didn`t, we`ll ask why. How this unfolded and
what his theory is, because I don`t get it. I -- you guys just want to pass it off as evil but I need to make more sense of this.
And later, did the police tell us the truth about hot car dad? We have new questions tonight and making sense about that story. Vanessa is
going to be very happy and I`ll tell you why after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTFIEID FEMALE: Punish her like that and see what it`s like. He`s a child, you don`t punish them that way. There`s no excuse for it.
That`s all there is to it. None at all.
And I hope, I hope God in heaven hears and puts her away forever. And that child should have a better life. And those grandparents, I don`t know
what they want to do with that but he should never be around that little boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam. That`s a neighbor reacting to the reports of the seven-year-old boy was starved and abused, weighing just 25 pounds
when he was town.
Let`s bring in the behavior bureau, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor of Pepperdine University, Jena Kravitz, clinical psychologist,
and Spirit, host of the new show "The Daily Help Line".
Now, a detective specializing in child abuse cases said, quote, "He looked like a Holocaust victim."
Spirit, your reaction.
SPIRIT, THE DAILY HELP LINE: This is so disgusting. I cannot believe that someone would do this to a child, but I am glad there are some
panelists tonight making sense. We`re talking about generational issues and we have to get back to the bottom of what`s going on here. They never
need to have these kids back in this house, ever.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, I don`t even know if they have got -- anybody know they have the kids back yet, they`re out on bail? I doubt they do.
SPIRIT: They`ll never see the kids again. No way.
PINSKY: All right. There was CPS.
All right. On the phone, I`ve got James. He`s the boy`s father. He and the mother are divorced. We are not revealing his last name in order
to protect the identity of his son.
James, thanks for joining us.
Now help us make sense of this. Why do you think they did this to your son or do you think they actively did what it looks like they did?
JAMES, BOY`S FATHER (via telephone): I have no clue. Many any eyes, I mean I don`t understand how any human can do this to a child or anybody.
I don`t know if it was out of spite or what it might have been. I mean, I haven`t been able to see my child for with -- you know, neither one of any
kids for almost a year.
PINSKY: Why would she act out on one of them if she has two, if she`s trying to spite you.
JAMES: I don`t if it was that. I mean, it always seemed like -- I mean, they played the favoritism, her oldest son was one of her favorites.
I mean, her oldest daughter was her mom and dad`s favorite, and then there was my kids.
PINSKY: And, James, your son was hospitalized. What did they tell the doctors when they got there? How did they explain to the physicians
what was going on?
JAMES: From what I was told and what I understand, she was trying to play it off as it was an eating disorder. And I spoke to the doctors.
That`s what they told me.
PINSKY: Is it possible she was abusing him and he had a an eating disorder and she was trying to hide that? That`s why it took so long to
get him in.
JAMES: I don`t feel he had an eat disorder. I mean, my boy always liked to eat. I mean, I was the one that did everything for the children
when I was in the house. I mean, I don`t know what she was doing or what she was thinking, but --
PINSKY: And, James, my understanding is it took them a long time to make an arrest of your ex-wife and the grandparents. Why?
JAMES: I guess -- I mean, we went to court and everything. I mean, they just kept prolonging it. I think they were trying to get to the
bottom of it to make sure that it wasn`t an eating disorder before they actually took, you know --
PINSKY: So somebody believed it was an eating disorder. Somebody believed this was a psychiatric problem that the child was having in.
JAMES: Well, that`s what Mary had come to the doctors at the hospital.
PINSKY: But some of the doctors believed that. I mean, somebody thought that was a psychiatric condition of the child. When did the abuse
start coming out? When did that history come forward?
JAMES: I have no clue myself. Like I said, I haven`t been in the house for at least four years now. Last time I seen my child was in
February of last year because she`s been keeping them from me.
PINSKY: Judy, you had a question there?
JUDY HO, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I did. Hey, James.
You know, I really see a turning point in this when they decided to take the child out of regular school and start to home school him because
that way they can really hide all of the things that are going on. Did they ever explain to you why they made the decision to home-school your
boy?
PINSKY: Allegedly.
HO: Allegedly, sure.
JAMES: I -- honestly, I didn`t even know. I mean, until I seen on her Facebook page that he was being homeschooled, I had no clue because
they had did that -- like I said, I haven`t seen them since February of last year and they obviously done that last year.
I honestly have no clue why they were homeschooled myself, I mean, other than to keep him from being out in the public, as far as I could see.
PINSKY: Right. All right. James, thank you so much for joining us.
I want to turn to the panel and remind people we`ve been trying to reach someone representing the mother and grandmother of this child but
have not had any calls back.
Now, Sam, I know you want to talk -- let me just say one thing, I have seen lots of cases of the very elderly and the very young being home sick
either psychiatrically or medically, and people not wanting to take them in for various reasons, either hiding some abuse or else, they`ve just afraid
of doctors, they`re afraid of psychiatric problems. They don`t want to admit there was a problem. Whatever it is, they`re in denial. I`ve seen
that happen a lot.
Sam, I don`t think that`s this, though.
SCHACHER: Yes, this kid does not have an eating disorder, and I`ll tell you why. The affidavit does not support that. The police
investigated that and everything supports and lends to the fact that this poor child was abuse. I mean, the poor kid half of the time while he was
being punished with this ice cold show showers and beatings was because he was going to the kitchen to get food because she was starved by his
grandparents and his mother.
PINSKY: Jena, why can`t -- it doesn`t fit my understanding of even evil human behavior.
SCHACHER: Yes.
JENA KRAVITZ, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. You know, this is such an unbelievable story honestly. It`s hard for me to grasp even as a mother.
I think there`s a transgenerational issue here with violence. That certainly would be one reasonable explanation.
I also kind of wonder if the other siblings, the older siblings, might or may not be contributor to this violence. I mean, there was a question
raised at some point like, why didn`t the siblings actually report the mom? Were they in on is this?
PINSKY: Right.
KRAVITZ: Were they in on this? Were they helping? Were they nacking on the little boy for stealing the peanut but are and the bread? You know,
who was in on this? Who wasn`t?
And I think as we see more of the reports come out and the interviewing with the children, the other children, that we will have more
information as to who exactly was contributing to this.
PINSKY: Yes. Spirit, I keep seeing you nod at these theories of transgenerational trauma and the children participating. I`ll give you the
last thought.
SPIRIT: Well, you know, the idea of this -- it has to be there, because these kids are still going to school. They`re not talking to
teachers. They`re not talking to social workers. They`re not talking to anybody.
There is a reason why this entire family sat silent. And unfortunately, I can`t understand how dad made that acceptable that after a
year, he wasn`t able to see his children. I just have so many questions about that.
PINSKY: Well, is James still on hold? Let`s bring James back in.
James, did you hear that question? People are wondering why you sat back for a year and tolerated this?
JAMES: I wouldn`t so much say sat back. I -- myself, I didn`t have a whole lot of choice because she was doing everything she could in her power
to keep me from my children.
PINSKY: Hold on, James. Spirit, hang on --
SPIRIT: There`s always a choice.
PINSKY: What is your specific question, Spirit? Go ahead. He can hear you.
SPIRIT: What happened that stopped you from doing whatever you had to do to at least be able to do a well check, to call the cops, to call
anybody and say, I haven`t seen my children, somebody needs to lay eyes on them if it`s not me?
PINSKY: James?
JAMES: Once again we get back to calling children and youth services. I had called myself twice about his medical well-being --
SPIRIT: The police, James. 911. I haven`t seen my children in a year. Can an officer knock on the door and eyeball both of my children.
PINSKY: Do a well check. James?
JAMES: Yes.
PINSKY: What do you say to that?
JAMES: I mean, like I said, I mean, she`s done everything in my power to keep me from them as far as going to the police making stuff up.
PINSKY: All right. So, he didn`t know enough, Spirit.
JAMES: I didn`t know what was going on.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, James. I do appreciate you joining us.
Next up, big questions tonight about the hot car death case. Police perhaps mistaken about what they think happened.
And later, a father calls 911 and said he beat his young son`s sex abuser to this. Here what he is saying tonight.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He started off trying to work himself up. We`re watching him on the cameras he`s doing this. And he`s walking around and
he`s rubbing his eyes. And he`s trying to -- look like he`s trying to hyper ventilate himself and then he`ll stop. No tears, no emotion coming
out of him except for, you know, the huffing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam.
Did investigators, Sam, exaggerate how Justin Ross Harris behaved on the day baby Cooper died in a car? Can you imagine that?
SCHACHER: You know what, Dr. Drew, if that`s the case. What a shame. You`re scarring with someone`s character, their livelihood --
PINSKY: That -- it could be a grieving parent. That is what alleged. Reporters in "The Atlanta Journal Constitution" watched the surveillance
tape from the Home Depot that captured Harris` movements a work. They found striking discrepancies between the video evidence and what the
detectives presented under oath at the hearing.
First, I`m going to (INAUDIBLE) for you, detectives say Harris sat in the car for 30 seconds after arriving at work long enough to remember
Cooper was in the back seat. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he parked the car, did he immediately get out?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he did not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How long does a defendant sit in his car before he actually exits to go in the building?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s around 30 second from the time he parked the vehicle, until the time he gets out and shuts the door.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Thirty seconds. But the video tells a different story according to the reporters. They say Harris -- quote, "Harris was in the
car for less than 15 seconds, put the vehicle in park, turned off the engine, gathered his smartphone, computer bag and drink before sliding out
of the driver seat.
Here`s the second claim. The detective said Harris paused in the parking lot when he saw a man approaching his vehicle. Detective implying
that Harris is making sure the man did not see the little boy in the car. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it appears another -- I will say this, another person passes him walking towards his car as he`s walking away from his
car. As that person approaches him, he stops, he kind of stands there for a little bit as the guy walks past him. You can see the man walk up
towards his car, he starts, Justin starts a little bit, he stops, the guy walks past the car and then Justin gets on the phone and goes inside the
Home Depot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: The video again did not match up, according to "The Atlanta Journal Constitution". Quote, "Harris stopped briefly but his eyes are on
his cell phone which he pokes at with his free hand, he never looks back to the man who walks past his car. :"
Let`s bring in Vanessa, Loni and Yasmin.
Vanessa, do you feel vindicated?
SCHACHER: Oh gosh!
BARNETT: Absolutely. It took everything in me not to bring a "I told you so" sign.
This is what you guys get. I`m sorry, you were wrong. You jumped for conclusions. We don`t know why the police did this. Maybe they`re looking
for their headline, making this. Maybe they were looking for their headlines making case. Maybe they want to be on DR. DREW ON CALL. I don`t
know.
But they wrong. They jumped to conclusion and they have the entire world judging this man saying he`s guilty and he`s not yet. We do not know
that.
PINSKY: Now, listen, there`s more.
The detective apparently was dead wrong about Harris making a trip to his car at lunch. Listen to how he describes it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He comes up. He opens up the door. And as he`s reaching in he kind of turns his head a little bit. He`s in there, he has
the clear view, and he kind of turns his head and tosses the light bulbs into the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And again, the video evidence did night match up. The reporters saying, quote, "Harris`s eyes remain above the SUV`s roof line.
Only his arm and shoulder reach into the vehicle. It took him three seconds to open the door, place the light bulbs inside and close the door."
Loni, the whole case was contingent upon his observations that they claim. What --
SCHACHER: Not the whole case.
PINSKY: You actually look very serious -- well, it made us all crazy.
BARNETT: Not all of us.
PINSKY: Well, except Vanessa.
SCHACHER: OK, Vanessa.
PINSKY: Vanessa remained reasonable on this.
But, Loni, you look stricken about this. What`s going on?
COOMBS: I am, Dr. Drew, because, look, the credibility of the investigating officer in the case is crucial. He`s so in this, putting
this case together and they`re supposed to do it with an objective point of view, looking where the evidence leads him, not framing the evidence to go
in a certain direction.
And there`s a real critical question here, whether this is an accident or whether it was intentional. And each one of those three points that
supposedly the video is different in, there`s a clear slant to make it look like it was an intentional act.
And, Dr. Drew, all I`m thinking is if he`s wrong on these three points on a video, what was that say about the rest of his investigation where we
don`t have a video to check to see if he`s telling the truth or not? If he`s being accurate or not?
PINSKY: How he`s biasing what he presents.
There`s more. The half brother of Justin Ross Harris says the family was planning a cruise in October and Ross was specifically looking for
cruise lines with activities for children, not a child-free life.
Yasmin, on the ground there, locally do you think the attitudes are changing?
VOSSOUGHIAN: I mean, I don`t really know. I think for instance the fact that the detective may have exaggerated what he said, I think that is
very awful for the investigation. I think we saw something similar but not exact many, many years ago with O.J. Simpson when a detective become as
character in the case.
But ultimately, what I will say is, there is a big crime that went on here. And that this guy was a very awful parent and he left his son to die
in the car for nine hours. Either way, this is going to be involuntary manslaughter to some extent.
PINSKY: I agree.
VOSSOUGHIAN: I mean, there`s still a big crime here that happened and he was a very awful parent and he was distracted and he shouldn`t have been
distract as a parent.
PINSKY: Hang on, Vanessa, hold on.
Vanessa, before you come to his defense -- Samantha, what do you want to say?
SCHACHER: Yes. No, if it`s not this, Dr. Drew, the premeditation of it, to live a child free life.
PINSKY: Well, that`s what made it so disgusting. The premeditation is what have us all excited.
SCHACHER: I agree. I think it lends to your other theory then, the fact he had the sex addiction, that he was so consumed and distracted --
which a actually adds up. The very idea he was checking out to see whether or not a kid could die in a hot car. Maybe this wasn`t the first time he
left him in a car. That`s why the mother, when she went to the daycare center, assumed, oh, gosh, Justin left the kid, you know, Cooper, in the
car again.
PINSKY: Again, he`s distracted.
BARNETT: Look at all these theories coming out almost in support when everyone was so enraged.
SCHACHER: I`m still enraged.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s give a little round of applause for Vanessa, everybody. Come on now.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: OK. All right. She can get a round of applause.
BARNETT: I appreciate it. I`m just saying we can`t --
PINSKY: While we all attack her, let`s all give her due now.
BARNETT: We can`t convict these people without the proper evidence and we can`t ruin this man`s life when he could be a grieving father. We
went -- you guys went way too far --
SCHACHER: There`s still damning evidence against him.
BARNETT: Even you said before the Google, the Google, oh my God, he Goggled "hot car" and now, we`re like, oh, well, maybe he did it before.
Maybe that`s not as damning.
PINSKY: Go ahead, Loni.
(CROSSTALK)
COOMBS: We can`t sway at all to one side or the other. We don`t know until the evidence comes out in court what the actual evidence says.
PINSKY: And I think Yasmin`s point is well-taken. Finish it up, Yasmin.
VOSSOUGHIAN: Yes, there`s still a crime to be had her. That`s the fact that the guy was sexting with six different women. He was so
distracted. And if it was a mistake, he left his child to die in a hot car for nine hours.
BARNETT: There are no winners here. There are no winners here. His son is dead. I get that. There are no winners.
But at the end of the day, when you have the man who premeditated this, which is disgusting and vile, or you had a man who made an accident
because he`s a horrible, neglectful father who likes to sext. Those things are two totally separate things.
PINSKY: I agree. One is evil, one is sick. Let`s put it that way. That`s one way to put it.
All right. The baby bureau is here. They`re going to talk about this case and see who`s changed their mind about the hot car dad with the new
information.
And later, father walks in on his child being sexually assaulted, takes the law into his own hands. The child`s mom, the mother is here
exclusively to discuss the case.
Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR: Not convinced, Dr. Drew and I don`t think any of this new evidence proves to me that he intended to kill his son.
EVY POUMPOURAS: We may not have the smoking gun but in law enforcement they`re going to take all of the small pieces, put them together, paint a
picture and use that to convict someone.
ERICA AMERICA: I really wanted to believe when I first heard this story that it was an accident. But all of the circumstantial evidence
together is really not looking good for him.
SEDAGHATFAR: I`m saying he`s possibly a sex addict and that`s why he reasonably could have forgotten his child was in the car.
DR. DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: Could this be an accident?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well of course, there`s a slim chance of that that she could have had a free willing, swinging life with his sexting that
just, oops, he`s so busy that he forgot his kid.
PINSKY: Listen, it`s not a justification. It`s a condemnation. I keep saying this, but that`s what happens with addictions, they get so sprier
out of control, they run somebody over.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, does that make it an accident or does that make it murder?
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, the behavior bureau, Judy, Jena, and Spirit, did investigators embellish the details of what happened the day Cooper
Harris died in that hot car. Reporters from the (inaudible) general constitution watched the surveillance tape, the track Justine Ross Harris
movements on that day and they say, the video evidence does not match up with what the detectives said under oath in court. Does that mean we should
be forgiving of this guy, Spirit?
SPIRIT: Absolutely not. You don`t forgive anybody just because one or two pieces of evidence don`t match up. And we have to remember, this is not
a one-man investigation. Nor because you`re watching this video, what you see in your filter doesn`t match other things. There are plenty of other
pieces of evidence that say, the jury is not out yet.
PINSKY: Judy, you were saying uh-huh?
JUDY HO, PH.D.: Yeah, I agree with, Spirit, Dr. Drew. And you know what? I witnessed testimonies are notoriously inaccurate in a lot of ways.
People remember selective things about the incident and police detectives and people who are professionals are not necessarily, you know, they`re not
necessarily, you know, kind of going to be doing better on something like eyewitnesses just because of their experience. But, what I find is
important is we`re all victims of the (inaudible) effect on things like, now we have this new information. Now, everybody wants him to be innocent
and I do not agree. There are still so many pieces of information. Are we forgetting the online searches? Are we forgetting it took him less than a
minute to get to his work after they stopped at Chick-fil-A? Are we forgetting that they could have seen the baby`s head through the little
chair that he was sitting in? There are so many -- and also, the bizarre behaviors of him, as well as his wife. Why are we forgetting these things
because they came early in the information train or now? What`s going on with that?
PINSKY: Samantha.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, DR. DREW ON CALL CO-HOST: I agree with you 100 percent. Judy Ho for president, like always, I love you. But I agree, and I
think that the most damning piece of evidence is the fact that he drove ten minutes from his work to that mall with the windows rolled up and he never
once smelled either decomposition or a full diaper. And also the very fact that like you said, Judy, the child was too big for the car seat. So, every
time he looked in that rearview mirror, he would have seen Cooper`s head other that car seat.
PINSKY: But, Jena, you`re say, and I`m concerned that might -- what you`re saying might be true, is that distraction, because he was addled in
his addiction or whatever it was, is sufficient, that distractedness is sufficient to explain all of that?
JENA KRAVITZ, PSY.D: Dr. Drew, as a parent, I think this is completely despicable, as a parent of young children. I wouldn`t leave my lipstick in
the car for fear that it would melt on a hot day, OK? So, that`s what clarifies that. But when I put my psychologist hat on and look at this kind
of objectively or as objectively as I can, honestly, he`s so consumed and spends so much mental energy on secrets and lies and sexting, it`s no
wonder that he`s distracted. It`s no wonder that he possibly could have made this mistake but at the end of the day he wasn`t distracted enough to
forget his computer bag, his water bottle and of course, his smartphone.
PINSKY: So, let me make sure I get this right, because I think it`s important to really frame this. We are condemning him for his behavior, all
of us, every single one of us.
SPIRIT: No, no.
PINSKY: You`re not condemning him for his behavior.
SPIRIT: I`m not condemning. What I`m saying is that the jury is still out here. And I`m not going to condemn him nor am I going to let him off
the hook in the same way I`m not letting mom off the hook. You know, because we keep talking about mom goes to the day care and says, oh, maybe
he left the baby in the car, again. Come on, now. If my child was left in a car once, twice by dad, he`s not taking the baby to day care anymore. We
have got to do better in how we`re dealing with this.
KRAVITZ: How could that have been her very first explanation?
PINSKY: It`s hard to understand.
KRAVITZ: Like oh, he probably just left the baby in the car.
PINSKY: He probably left the baby in the hot car like he always does.
KRAVITZ: Right.
PINSKY: So, let`s remind ourselves that the wife has not been charged with anything and there`s no wrongdoing thought of on her part formally as
of yet. Judy, your comment.
HO: I was just gonna say that, I know the motive is not needed to prove that he did this on purpose. But there are definitely motives here.
He did not like his actual life. He was totally online all of the time trying to build another character.
PINSKY: But he was looking for, you know, he was going to go on a family vacation, he wanted child friendly cruise lines. There is a lot of
evidence that he loved this. So, listen, it cuts both ways.
HO: But he also searched.
PINSKY: Listen, We`re all saying -- I got to go to break, but we`re all saying -- what was getting to on the condemnation, we`re saying
whatever led to this behavior were we`re sort of condemning the result an whether it was because of he was distracted, premeditated is especially
onerous, but none of it is excused. It`s just explanation.
Next up, the father of a boy who beat a teen unconscious saw his son being sexually abused by this man, and he beat him. The boy`s mother is
here with her reaction after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
ROBIN MEADE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: An 18-year-old Florida boy, his swollen face all courtesy of an enraged dad and with good reason. He says he walked
in on the man abusing his 11-year-old son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you have a child who`s been molested and you walk in on it, I don`t know any parent, any relative who would contain
themselves from doing something like this.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: There you go. Back with Sam, Vanessa and Judy. Joing us Tony Rock, he is actor and comedian host of B.E.T.`s Apollo Live. Thanks for
joining us. Now, this is our most tweeted story tonight. A father as you heard, said he walked in on this 18-year-old in the process of sexually
abusing his young son, an 11-year-old. Father admits to beating the 18- year-old, Raymond Frolander and then calling 911. Listen to the 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 911, what is the emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just walked in and found a grown man molesting my (inaudible) and I got him in a bloody puddle for you right now officer. He
is nice and knocked out on the floor for you. I drug him into the living room. Send him an ambulance. He`s going to need one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were there any weapons involved?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My fist and my foot.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Here`s what we know. The accused molester is an 18-year-old, Raymond Frolander. He`s been charged with sexual battery of a child under
the age of 12. After the police told, Frolander the victim`s story, Frolander allegedly admitted his guilt to the police. I`ve got the
affidavit right here. And it says in the affidavit that guilt was admitted. Vanessa, your reaction?
VANESSA BARNETT: I mean, what else do you do? I don`t like that man said. I don`t know anyone who would not react in the same way. He deserves
much worst and he`s lucky he wasn`t not dead, if it had been my husband, he would be.
PINSKY: Judy, you`re saying yes?
HO: I am saying yes. And I`m so sad about this story. I`m just trying to imagine, put myself in this dad`s place walking in as this is occurring
to his 11-year-old son which from the affidavit, had been occurring, according to the victim, for three years at least.
PINSKY: We`re going to find out from the mom about that. Tony, I wanna get your comment real quick. Sorry to throw you under into the fire with a
story like this, but here you go.
TONY ROCK: The dad wasn`t thinking within the parameters of the law. He saw something happening to his child. He immediately reacted like a
parent. There have been parents lifting cars of their children to protect them.
PINSKY: That`s right.
ROCK: And that`s a dad being a dad.
PINSKY: I agree. Now, let`s talk to the mom. We`re gonna call her Sally. She`s the mother of the victim. Of course, Sally is not her real
name. We`re protecting her identity to protect his son`s identity as well. Sally, I understand this relationship with Raymond is a little more
complicated than the press has been reporting. Tell me about that.
SALLY, MOTHER OF THE VICTIM: Yes it is. Actually, Raymond was not just a teenager that we just happened to take in. He wasn`t a neighbor. He was a
full-blown member of this family. My son refers to him as his brother. He`s been a part of this family for quite some time since he was a child.
PINSKY: And so, this business of the abuse possibly lasting across three years, that seem viable, does it not?
SALLY: That actually is not true either. What actually happened was Raymond moved away. Right before he moved away, my son had just now told us
that something similar had happened before he had moved away. Raymond was gone for three years and had just recently come back to Florida. This
wasn`t something that had been continually going on.
PINSKY: Sam, did you have a question?
SCHACHER: Yeah. If you could just reiterate what you just stated, were you saying that your son, something similar, another molestation allegation
had occurred to him or Raymond was molested prior, if you could just clarify.
SALLY: Well, actually both. Apparently, the situation that my ex had walked in on something similar to that between my son and Raymond had
happened three years ago. However, Raymond himself was also abused before as a child.
PINSKY: And that`s, you know, -- Judy, correct me if my data is right on this, but about 60 percent of abused children can become -- is that a
good number of perpetrators. Is that too high?
HO: No. That`s about right, Dr, Drew. And we talked about the cycle of violence that continues both with sexual and physical abuse. And my
question for is Sally is, you know, I know that you tried to clarify right now that it wasn`t continues abuse for three years. But that doesn`t make
this better. Your son was exposed when he was eight years old, and probably prior to that. So, how have you tried to support him at his kind of forward
with this information?
PINSKY: I guess the question is, is he getting treatment?
SALLY: Yeah, we`re doing everything we can, you know I mean, to just try to help him move past this. Obviously, you can imagine it`s been very
difficult to try to keep the media and everything away and being in his face constantly all of the time. You know, as big as it`s gotten, and
everything is like constantly a reminder. Our main goal right now is to protect him from that. And of course all of us as a whole family, we need -
- you know, we all need to seek guidance and do what we can for my son and for our other children.
PINSKY: Absolutely. They`re traumatized too, I`m sure. Sally, two things I wanna say. First of all, I wanna say thank you for joining us. I
know it`s a rally tough time for you. And two, I hope you understand or take away the confidence that trauma can be treated, that there`s treatment
out there that works, and I hope you will vary yourself with that. And with that, last thoughts, what do you want the world to know about this story?
SALLY: Well, what we really want everybody to know is that, you know, everything that everybody is saying about Raymond or doing towards his
family or anything like that, that is also affecting the victim. We are one family unit. We`re two house holds that we all work together to raise these
kids together and do the best that we can for them. So, it`s really tearing our family apart. You know, our two children, you know what I mean. And
there are nine children all together in this family that, you know, have all been deeply affected by this.
PINSKY: So, Sally, I want to make sure I`m hearing you. So, you`re calling Raymond one of the children that you`re as concerned about as the
victimized child. Is that accurate?
SALLY: We are still very concerned about Raymond. Obviously, you know, he`s going to get justice, I guess, through the system, and we also want to
make sure that this never happens to anybody else again, you know. But it`s very torn. You know, his stepmother, you know, loves my son just as much as
she loves her children. My son calls her mom, you know. This is very hard for us to have the deal with this with both of them being, you know, part
of our family.
PINSKY: OK. So, I`ve got to go to break. Thank you for joining us. Everyone is -- Vanessa is having a lot of reaction. We`ll talk to the panel
after the break. But please avail yourself to treatment. It does work and you must get it, and you must stay with it. More with the panel after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just walked in and found a grown man molesting (BLEEP) and I got him in a bloody puddle for you right now officer. He`s
nice and knocked out on the floor for you. I drug him into the living room.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That guy got what he was coming to him and he deserved more than a beatdown as far as I`m concerned. We all have a
privilege to use self-defense or defense of others. The requirement has to be that that victim has to be suffering or in danger of imminent bodily
harm.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Judy and Tony. We`re talking about the father who walked in on his young son, allegedly being sexually abused. We
just spoke with the victim`s mom. Vanessa, I haven`t heard from you yet. Go ahead. I saw you having huge physical reaction in the start of the story.
BARNETT: Every time he said something, I just wanted to jump in there. I know she mentioned there were nine kids in the house hold. Dr. Drew, I`m
just so worried are we going to hear more stories have their -- maybe been more victims, and then, I think it was almost humanizing to see her,
sympathize and worry about the victim and the perpetrator. I was just.
PINSKY: Hard to make sense. Tony, your reaction.
ROCK: You know, it was kind of unfortunate to hear her talking about how a family like this kid, with this person, and it seems like a more
traditional family setting. You don`t hear stories like this. It`s like, it`s too much trouble involved when children are, you know, this guy dad
and mom. And mom is cool with this guy. It`s too much.
PINSKY: You know, it`s funny you would say that. I kind of agree with you. I`ve always said when people want to have multiple people in
relationship with them. It`s hard enough to have two, one person with another person. There are armies of people trying to help people through
that. Now, I wanna show you guys some same here. The father of the victim says -- Judy, I want you to react to this. He says the son, the reason that
Raymond Frolander, the guy he beat up is still alive, and the dad spoke to our Florida affiliate, the reason the kid is still alive, the 18-year-old
is because of the 11-year-old. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My son saved Raymond. Raymond was motionless on my floor. I went to my kitchen to grab a butcher knife. My son stopped me. My
son came in front of me and saved his attackers life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father say, that`s because of his 11-year-old who dad thinks, forgives Frolander.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he must have because he saved his life.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: And may have saved the dad from a murder, you know, case. But Judy, my question here is, do you think the 11-year-old kid -- I understand
these relationships are very complicated. But do you think this 11-year-old was identifying with the victimizer as they sometimes do?
HO: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. As you know, sexual abuse often happens inside the families and they`re perpetrated by family members. And it must
be really confusing for kids to make sense of that, because they actually love these people. If this Raymond was a brother to our victim, then you
see why he`s so conflicted about it, and why he`s sort of protect him. But I was so astounded by what the mother was saying. It sounded like she was
making excuses for Raymond, and I know it must be confusing for her, too. If she sees Raymond as a son, but that is inexcusable some of the things
she was saying. I`m sorry but that was not OK.
PINSKY: I had a little trouble with it, too, but I understand how messy the circumstances but as long as they get treatment they can sort it
all out. Samantha, you wanted to comment?
SCHACHER: Well, for one, she did followed up with her statement just to give her the benefit of the doubt, saying that she wants to make sure
that Raymond does get the justice that he deserves so he doesn`t hurt anybody else. But, you know what, Dr. Drew, I mean, I`m not a violent
person. But boy, if I saw anybody abusing or raping a loved one, a child, even my pet, I would go ballistic on them and may God help their soul. So,
I completely I commend this father.
PINSKY: We`ve got about ten seconds, Vanessa.
BARNETT: You think that`s a common thought that we all have. I was disturbed to read a lot of Facebook messages and comments saying that they
wanted this man to be held accountable for assault and that it wasn`t fair on both sides of the, you know, scales of justice point.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: But for the grace of God we don`t have a murder case here but that`s where it was headed.
SCHACHER: Yeah.
PINSKY: Thank you, panel. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Sam and I are back.
SCHACHER: Yeah. And, Dr. Drew, I have some more thoughts about this mother.
PINSKY: We all do.
SCHACHER: I want our viewers to tune in to our after show, on HLNTV.com.
PINSKY: Great.
SCHACHER: And we will continue on with the discussion.
PINSKY: That`s right. We`ll keep our whole panel together, and (inaudible), can stay for the after show. Again, DVR us anytime. Forensic
Files, begins next.
END
