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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Tense Weekend at Flight Crash Site; Ukrainian President Poroshenko Convinced Rebels Responsible for MH-17 Downing; Israel-Gaza Conflict Continues

Aired July 21, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And good afternoon, everyone. I'm Anderson Cooper. Thanks very much for joining us.

We begin this hour with breaking news on the downing of MH17 in eastern Ukraine. President Obama speaking moments ago from the White House, again calling out Russia in the deaths of 298 people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Russia has extraordinary influence over these separatists. No one denies that. Russia has urged them on. Russia has trained them. We know that Russia has armed them with military equipment and weapons, including anti-aircraft weapons. Key separatist leaders are Russian citizens. So given its direct influence over the separatists, Russia, and President Putin in particular, has direct responsibility to compel them to cooperate with the investigation. That is the least that they can do.

My preference continues to be finding a diplomatic resolution within Ukraine. I believe that can still happen. That is my preference today. And it will continue to be pie preference. But if Russia continues to violate Ukraine's sovereignty and to back these separatists and these separatists become more and more dangerous and now are risks not simply to the people inside of Ukraine but the broader international community, then Russia will only further isolate itself from the international community and the costs for Russia's behavior will only continue to increase.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: It is just after 7:00 p.m. at the sprawling crash site near the Ukrainian/Russian border. As we speak, a train that has served as a makeshift morgue is due to be released by pro-Russian militants for journey to the Ukrainian city of Karkiv (ph). According to Ukraine's government, the bodies will eventually be flown to the Netherlands.

A team of European monitors say for the first time since the plane came down on Thursday, militants have granted almost unfettered access to the debris fields. The militant's self-declared leaders tell CNN his people had nothing to do with MH17's demise nor does it serve their interest. Much more from him in a moment.

For its part, the Kremlin is denying it ever gave the separatists anti-aircraft missiles or, quote, any other weapons. It claim a Ukrainian warplane flew very near the Malaysian airliner just before the civilian plane came itself came down. Now, the U.S. not only believes a Russian missile brought the jet down, it's investigating whether Russian personnel may have actually pulled the trigger.

There's a lot to cover over this hour. Lest anyone forget the final resting place of MH17 is not a place of rest but of combat. I want to go to our - my CNN colleague, Chris Cuomo, who's in the city of Donetsk.

Chris, what have you been seeing from the new government offensive there?

CHRIS CUOMO, CO-ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY": Well, there's been shelling today, Anderson. Had some degree of impact. It really hurt a local train station here. There was significant damage done to a residential building. There was a fire in the market place. The local authorities, the reports they put out were that there were civilian fatalities and injuries. We haven't been able to confirm that through any other source except them.

But to hear it from people here, this was just another day of conflict here. Although it does wind up fighting what we heard from the Ukrainian president just moments ago, that there would be a 40 kilometer cease-fire. On the same day that there's supposed to be a cease-fire, there wound up being pretty heavy shelling.

COOPER: You also talked - you also interviewed the so-called prime minister of Donetsk. What did he have to say about the crash?

CUOMO: A lot. I mean he was openly defiant and hostile. He is a self- appointed prime minister, of course, because there was no election making him so. And he has a very developed theory about what happened here that exempts himself from any responsibility and puts it all squarely on Ukraine. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDER BORODAI, SEPARATIST LEADER (through translator): Yes, it is true, so to speak. These items resemble the black boxes very much, but I cannot officially declare that these are the black boxes. We do not have the experts that could say, yes, it is them and not anything else.

CUOMO: So please answer the allegations, Ukraine and western intelligence authorities say that there was a tweet connected to the DPR that said that your forces had taken control of a Russian missile system that it took from Ukraine, that they intercepted conversations bragging that they had taken down the plane. So if you have the tweet and the conversations and the pictures that all point to your forces, how do you deny that it was your forces that brought down the plane?

BORODAI: It is very simple to disprove it. All of the information that comes through the Internet, in my opinion, is practically all lies.

CUOMO: This site, four days it's been and bodies are still there, in the sun. You can imagine if it were your family member how you would feel about their body being out there for so long. Why were they allowed to stay there so long? Why weren't the bodies taken care of and given dignity sooner?

BORODAI: You know, it's a fantastic story. The thing is, that as soon as members of OSCE arrive, they notified us that if we start moving the bodies then we will be responsible.

CUOMO: I want to give you one last opportunity to answer this question. The belief of the western community and of Ukraine is that a Russian missile brought down this plane. And there is suspicion that it had something to do with fighters from your region. What do you want to say to people who believe that?

BORODAI: What can I say? I have addressed this topic many times, but I am under the impression that myself and my colleagues are not being heard. Let's look at the real facts. Firstly, we didn't have any motive to target this plane. But for Ukraine, our enemy, the crash of this plane is very beneficial.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: All right, first of all, just some factual clarifications. The idea that the acting prime minister and self-appointed one was advised not to move the bodies, the OSCE says they never gave him any such advice. They just warned that he shouldn't steal the bodies.

Similarly, the first answer he gave was in reference to a question about the black box, why were they taken from the scene? They now believe they are in the hands of this man. The question is, whom will he give them to? He has suggested he'll give them to the proper international body. That is yet to happen.

And while we can debate and wait for further proof about how this plane got taken out of the sky, there is absolutely no question that it landed in the middle of this conflict and it has not been well handled since. There is no security there. People have traipsed through. All of the integrity of the investigation is in question. And, more importantly, the dignity of the victims has been completely sullied. They've been literally allowed to just stay in the sun for days and it is unacceptable.

So we followed the monitors to see exactly what the tension was between the local militia and them and just what is being done and not done at this all-important crime scene.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO (voice-over): Sunflowers and wheat and farmland, changed in an instant. A dark cloud and thunder fills the sky as MH17 is shot down. The plane's 298 souls -- men, women, children -- crash into the middle of a battlefield, and now in undignified limbo. Local militants, suspected by Ukrainian authorities of bringing down the plane, restrict access with the constant threat of force and gunfire.

CUOMO (on camera): Of why it is the way it is, they're telling us to move back. At least he's being gentle about it this time.

CUOMO (voice-over): Cameras become tools to perverse the scene as much as to report on it.

CUOMO (on camera): Today we're traveling with one of the monitoring teams. They're called the OSCE. We're going to see if they're given access to the crash site and what has been done and what hasn't.

CUOMO (voice-over): When we arrived, the area is raw. Bodies still everywhere, exposed to onlookers, dogs and a hot sun. Personal effects, the last traces, memories of loved ones, picked through. Intact valuables seem to be missing.

CUOMO (on camera): Over my shoulder you see a major portion of the crash site that monitors have not been able to inspect but it's been very well picked over. Now, there's something else I want to show you that's pretty interesting here. They've drawn a line for the boundary, right? But look, there's so much outside of it that they haven't taken into account. It just goes to the need of having the right people here and they're not here yet.

CUOMO (voice-over): And the militants in charge of the dignity of the victims seem more interested in a show of force than in showing respect.

CUOMO (on camera): We're just going to hang back a little bit here because the security situation is very tenuous. The invitation is only as good as the mood of the men in front of us with the weapons.

CUOMO (voice-over): Finally, two days after the crash, bodies are bagged and trucked away. But to where? We follow monitors to a nearby train station. Inside some cars designed to carry meat -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have verified that there are body bags in these wagons.

CUOMO: There is no way for monitors to count the bodies or to even inspect inside.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Going inside the wagon was impossible without special equipment. It's a very - very, very bad.

CUOMO: And there is more bad to come.

CUOMO (on camera): OK, at this point, the military is stopping us from going any further.

CUOMO (voice-over): Regional security decides we've seen enough. Once again, hands on guns, they tell us to go. Villagers take up our cause. One woman takes us to a neighboring area. And there we see this, a collection of debris residents have assembled in a makeshift memorial to the lives lost. A rare show of respect and empathy. Nearby, a remarkable find in a tree above, an overhead bin, closed and

intact. It just serves as a reminder of the desperate need for attention and care before it's too late.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: So you have the integrity of the investigation here, Anderson, that's the first thing. And you just see from that piece, there's a need for experts on the ground. The local leadership says that everyone's invited, they can come, but it's simply just not safe. That said, the west and the international community must do better.

Then you have the dignity of the victims. And that's what really should matter most when it comes to MH-17. Now, on that front, there is some good news. As you announced, there will be this train going down towards Kharkiv (ph), and that's where they're going to allow the Dutch authorities who are here to continue doing DNA samples and help to identify these bodies. But the question is, how long will that take? Will it really happen? Everything's a question, as you well know, Anderson, in a place like this when there's literally no one in control that you can trust.

COOPER: So, Chris, just - I mean are these OSCE monitors, are they the only international body on scene? I mean are there any investigators from the Netherlands, from European countries, from the NTSB? I mean is there any international team there on the ground?

CUOMO: You know, you express wonder at the right thing, Anderson. I know it's hard to believe. But OSCE, as you well know, they're here to monitor violence. They have no capacity or skill when it comes to forensics and any type of air crash event. But they are the only ones here.

Now they are joined by several Ukrainian experts, but we don't know of what degree their expertise is. And, most importantly, the Dutch experts are on the ground. And while the Ukrainian president has called for the Dutch to take over this investigation, the local leadership basically just laughs at that. And the last point that you're making is another good one, where is the west? Where is the U.S.? Where is everybody who's saying this is such an outrage and that it is the flash point and Russia can do no more and Putin must act? None of them are here, Anderson, none of them.

COOPER: Do we know, would they be allowed there by the self-professed prime minister of Donetsk, who you talked to? Would they be allowed there by - by those local gunmen?

CUOMO: He says yes. So now there's two parts to that. One, do you trust that answer? Two, does he control all the different militia groups? It would seem that the answer to the second question is no, he does not control all the militia groups. That comes from the OSCE. They say there are almost 100 disparate groups here.

But that, Anderson, I've watched you so many times in so many difficult areas as difficult as this one and much more so and there are often international bodies on the ground doing their best to help ameliorate a situation like this, let alone investigate a crime. And that's what this is, a huge crime scene that is really being allowed to be completely corrupted.

COOPER: Chris Cuomo, great reporting. I appreciate you being there. Chris, thank you very much for talking to us.

Our own Christiane Amanpour has just finished up an exclusive interview with the president of Ukraine about the shootdown of the plane. She joins us next live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the downing of flight MH-17. Let me welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world.

Ukraine's president telling CNN that 16 bodies are still missing, 16 victims from the crash of the Malaysian Airlines Flight 17.

Our CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour spoke exclusively to President Petro Poroshenko just a short time ago, did not mince words, talking about three international crimes he says have happened in the last few days.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT PETRO POROSHENKO, UKRAINE: Crime number one is the terroristic attack itself where the terrorists, supported by the Russian launch rocket missile, a surface-to-air missile, against the civilian Malaysian plane, which brings 298 victims.

Crime number two, and it is a disaster, the way how the bodies, innocent bodies, including the 80 children, were treated.

They make -- they take their personal belongings these terrorists, and they treat it very badly. This is barbarian style of doing this with the bodies of victims.

And crime number three, all that they do during this 96 hours, they try to destroy the evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And Christiane joins me now from London.

What did he say about the latest report that Russian personnel may have had involvement in the downing of the plane?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I asked him about that, and that the U.S. is trying to establish that, but that's been his position from the very beginning, that it was either Russian trainers or those, you know, separatists that he insists be called terrorists under the tutelage of those Russians. But he's absolutely convinced, and he says he has audio and other intercepts to prove it, and they've already released some. But they have absolutely no doubt.

And, beyond that, when I asked him, you know, the Russian defense minister had a press conference today, people thought maybe he has a few interesting things to say about what's going on.

Instead, he accused Ukrainian military flights of being in the air when the plane came down, and Petro Poroshenko categorically denied that.

He also said that he's called for a 40-kilometer exclusion zone around that site. As you can see from Chris's reporting and others, anybody who's anybody or not can go to that crash site and do just kind of what they want.

And he has also said he's going to ask the U.S. and the U.S. Congress to designate all those separatists not as separatists but as terrorists.

COOPER: What does he want the global community to do about Russian? Obviously, he's been calling for greater involvement from the west in this conflict all along.

AMANPOUR: That's right. Well, at the moment, there is talk of more and ratcheting up sanctions.

Here in Europe, all weekend, outrage. World leaders from the prime minister of Great Britain, the chancellor of Germany, the prime minister of, obviously, the Netherlands, but also Italy and other countries have been saying the right thing in terms of speaking with one voice for the first time in a long time.

What actually happens is, again, yet to be seen. And, really, again, most people are putting it in President Putin's court and so is Petro Poroshenko, saying, look, we know Putin has the influence.

It's time now to put up or shut up on this, basically, because he can solve the situation, A, by closing the border and not allowing his military to let any fighters or heavy weaponry in, and, B, by insisting that these separatists accede to the legitimate government of Ukraine, which as you know was elected in May.

This is the kind of thing that Poroshenko is looking for, and he keeps calling for a united world to react like that.

It's very interesting. He portrays this as sort of Ukraine's 9/11m and he uses the kind of language we heard after 9/11. Either you're with the terrorists or you're with the civilized world, and he said that again today.

COOPER: Christiane Amanpour, appreciate it. Thanks very much. We're going to have more on this story throughout the hour.

Also, another big story that we're following, Israel and Gaza just saw the deadliest day in the latest conflict. Today, a scene of chaos and confusion as a hospital in Gaza comes under attack.

We'll have the latest on the situation on the ground and if there's any hope for a cease-fire, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We turn now to the deadly conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

Palestinian officials say this hospital in Gaza was blasted today. Five people were killed.

Meantime, Israeli forces killed 10 Hamas militants who got into Israel through tunnels.

Sunday was the deadliest day so far. More than a dozen Israeli soldiers and nearly 90 Palestinians were killed. Since the conflict began two weeks ago, more than 500 Palestinians have been killed.

Two of the Israelis killed yesterday are Americans, young men who volunteered to serve with the defense forces. Hamas is claiming that they have captured an Israeli soldier. That's a claim, though, that Israel now disputes.

Secretary of State John Kerry is on his way to the region right now in hopes of brokering a cease-fire.

Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu telling our Wolf Blitzer that he regrets all civilian deaths.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAEL: I'm very sad. When I see that, I'm very sad. We're sad for every civilian casualty. They're not intended.

This is the difference between us. The Hamas deliberately target civilians and deliberately hides behind civilians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: CNN's interview with Netanyahu is going to air in its entirety on Wolf's show about 1:00 p.m. Eastern today about 30 minutes from now.

CNN international correspondent Ben Wedeman joins me now, live from Gaza City, with the latest. So, Ben, this hospital that was apparently hit, what do we know about it?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know it's a hospital to the south of here, which was hit on the third floor with some projectile. Five people were killed, including patients and relatives that were visiting at the time.

Since then, the hospital director sent out a panicked message, asking our hospitals to take their patients because they simply cannot serve them anymore. Apparently, their operating room is no longer operating.

So it's typical of sort of -- this sort of crisis Gaza is encountering. There's a lot of shell fire going on in the background at the moment. But, yes, Anderson.

COOPER: Has Israel made any statement about why a shell would have landed in a hospital? I mean, obviously Hamas is saying it was targeted. Israel would say that is certainly not the case.

WEDEMAN: Generically, Israel does say that Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas, from schools, from parks, from near hospitals, and from near mosques. We did, for instance, once see one house that was targeted a few days ago that clearly had nearby in its compound a tunnel that was obviously not being used for civilian purposes.

But it's difficult to say in this particular instance whether a rocket was fired from there. And Palestinians will probably ask you the question, why is it these rockets being fired into Israel and most of them landing harmlessly or being intercepted? Why would you strike a hospital and kill five people as a result of that?

Anderson?

COOPER: Ben, the shelling, the shooting we're hearing behind you, do you see it? What's going on?

WEDEMAN: This has been going on pretty much throughout the day. Yesterday was even more intense.

We've seen the Israeli -- appears to be artillery and naval guns from bodies out to sea, pounding this neighborhood, where yesterday we went to and was severely damaged by this bombardment.

They seem to be focusing further south, targets further south. We can see it. We can hear it. It's now only about two kilometers, a mile and a half from where we're standing.

COOPER: All right. Ben, be careful, thanks for continued coverage. We'll continue to check in with Ben. We're following the stunning story of the plane shot down in the Ukraine.

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