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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

MH17 Victim's Brother Speaks; Russian Media Reports Wild Conspiracy Theories; Hospitals Bombed; Gaza's Underground Terror War

Aired July 21, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Want to welcome our viewers from the United States and around the world to the continuing coverage of breaking news from the Ukraine.

The last hour, the White House, President Obama demanded Russia and its proxy force in Ukraine allow a full and open investigation into the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17. The president says that is the least they can do.

As we speak, a train carrying human remains from the sprawling crash site is due to set out for the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv, apparently with the separatists' permission. Ukraine's government says that the victims will eventually be flown to the Netherlands.

The pro-Russian rebel leader tells CNN his people had nothing to do with Flight 17's demise. For his part, Vladimir Putin accuses the West of using, quote, "tragedy to achieve selfish political objectives."

Meanwhile, there are so many stories of love and loss, 298 souls on board that flight, among them an Australian couple. Arjen Ryder was a scientist, a researcher. He and his wife Yvonne were headed home from the Netherlands.

His brother, Drew, joins us now from Minneapolis.

Drew, I appreciate talking to you again. You and I spoke last week. And once again, we are so deeply sorry for your loss.

Have you or your family heard anything from authorities or anyone else over the weekend?

DREW RYDER, BROTHER OF MH17 VICTIM: Well, we've actually heard mostly from the Australian government. They're doing their best to find out ways going on and making sure that there's some orderly process here in discovering what really happened here and handling the aftermath here with the remains and things like that.

COOPER: How concerned are you about -- I mean, about the way the crash site has been handled, about the way the victims of this flight have been handled?

RYDER: Well, I think, you know, I've said this publicly before, you know, we're people of faith and that's helping us get through this and make sense of something that's senseless.

What's happening now, this aftermath, is not surprising to me how it's being handled. Essentially, this happened in a war zone. The rules don't apply. Any sense of morality or dignity, it doesn't exist, I don't think, in that situation.

We as a family are very upset. We're grieving the loss of two loved ones. We're very concerned about the other families that lost loved ones as well. And we certainly want this to be handled more appropriately.

At the same time, we're very comfortable that my brother and sister- in-law are in a better place, and we're kind of moving on. We're going to have a memorial service next week. And we feel that's going to give us closure.

COOPER: Tell our viewers about your brother, about Arjen and about his wife Yvonne.

RYDER: They were two people in the prime of their life -- Arjen, very outgoing, adventurous, very loving person; Yvonne, also very loving and generous, very good family members, really model parents and grandparents, great to have as a brother.

He and I had a lot of good times together, and he's going to be terribly missed, but he also would have said if he was still alive today that if it was his time to go that, you know, he would accept that.

COOPER: Drew, I appreciate talking to you. And thank you very much for taking the time to tell us about Arjen and to tell us about Yvonne. Thank you. Again, our sympathies to you and the rest of your family.

People around the world have been watching the news of this horrific plane crash, obviously, but if you live in Russia, you might be hearing a very different story, that it's all a giant conspiracy.

We're going to have some of the worst reports, to say the least, from Russia's media, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of Flight 17.

Did you hear the story about how the Malaysian Flight 17 was actually full of dead bodies when it took off from Amsterdam? Or that Ukraine's military targeted the flight, mistaking it for President Putin's plane? Or that all of this is a huge American conspiracy?

These are just stories, but if you lived in Russia, you would think these are facts, according to a article in "The New Republic."

Julia Ioffe is the author and senior editor there. And I read your article. It was on -- I follow you on Twitter. It's amazing what the coverage -- what people in Russia are getting, this idea that the plane was full of dead bodies when it left Amsterdam. JULIA IOFFE, SENIOR EDITOR, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Actually, that is part of a bigger conspiracy theory, which is that Flight 17 was actually Malaysian Airlines Flight 370, the one that disappeared over the Indian Ocean, and that that plane didn't actually disappear, it was taken by the American military to a military base in the U.S., then it was taken to Holland, and at the necessary time, it was stuffed full of corpses and packed with a bomb.

COOPER: This is all being reported by Russian media?

IOFFE: Yeah, and it's circulating all over the Internet. It's like this feedback loop between the official TV, official newspapers, and the Russian Internet, which is of course a great breeding ground for conspiracy theories.

COOPER: I guess the question, is this coming from the Kremlin, or there's no way to really know?

IOFFE: I think there's no way to really know, but what's probably happening is that the signal kind of went down from the top that we've got to just scramble, we've got to cover this up, and we have to not look responsible.

And so -- and then creative minds step in and try to figure out ways to get the blame away from Russia.

COOPER: And you were saying -- you were talking before the break that some of this actually comes from TV shows.

IOFFE: Yeah.

COOPER: TV programs like "Sherlock" and others?

IOFFE: Yeah, so then another part of the Internet steps in and says, by the way, that plot, that idea that a plane full of corpses was shot down as part of a, you know, hoax, that actually comes from the TV show "Sherlock."

There was also a recent spot on Russian Channel 1, which is the biggest Russian TV channel. It's owned by the Kremlin. It goes to -- out of 143 million people in Russia, 130 million people can see it.

And there was an interview with a woman who said that she saw the Ukrainian military crucify a little boy on a billboard. That, it turns out, is from "The Game of Thrones," and it didn't actually happen.

COOPER: Wow. It's remarkable.

IOFFE: Yeah.

COOPER: It's a fascinating article, NewRepublic.com. Julia, thanks so much for being on the --

IOFFE: Thanks for having me.

COOPER: Appreciate it. Back now to our other top story, so many of the attacks between Israel and Gaza are launched in the sky, rockets flying over the border, but in tunnels underground, there are people and supplies moving as well.

Why that's such a concern for Israel, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back.

Doctors in Gaza are asking the Israel military to stop shelling hospitals in the warzone after a medical facility was bombed earlier today. Palestinian officials say five people were killed and 15 were injured. Joining me now is Sarah Woznick, an intensive care nurse working with the group Doctors Without Borders. She's been training nurses in Gaza for the last six months and she joins us from Jerusalem.

Thanks so much for being with us.

What are the most common injuries that you have been seeing?

SARAH WOZNICK, DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS: Well, I personally have not been working in the hospitals right now. My colleagues in MSF (ph) in Gaza right now are telling me about some of the injuries that they're seeing. And they're some of the typical injuries that you would see from blast explosions, for example, in the really close area to a blast. You would first see burns, loss of limbs and lots - and shrapnel. Then as you get farther away, you mostly start to see less of the really crushing injuries from the blast itself and more shrapnel wounds. So the ones who are, of course, closest to the blast are the ones who would be in danger of dying very, very quickly.

Then you -- the other types of injuries they're seeing are from houses falling down that have been hit by a blast. And those are more crush injuries that crush vital organs. And so those are also -- the ones that are really under the main areas of the house that are falling, those are the ones that usually die very quickly. And those that were a little farther away are the ones that end up going to the hospital for surgeries, for multiple traumas to vital organs, things of that nature.

COOPER: And in terms of supplies, how well supplied are doctors, are nurses, and well trained? I mean one of the reasons you were there for the last six months is because nurses aren't able to leave to try to, you know, expand their training base. So you're actually now, as part of what Doctors Without Borders is doing actually is going to the scene to do training there.

WOZNICK: Exactly. Gaza, as a whole, was in - the healthcare system, even before the current crisis, was quite fragile because -- as a result of the siege, the citizens are not able to leave to get training. And then also, they have a lot of shortages of supplies, of basic equipment. Things like gloves and gauze, all of the things that I would normally take for granted working in any hospital system in the U.S. or a developed area. And so this system was very fragile to begin with. And now so when

this crisis hit, it was - it was a big blow to them. We have donated some of our emergency stocks from MSF and other actors, but now the hospitals are really going to start being in trouble with the rise in trauma in the last couple of days.

COOPER: Well, I've done a lot of work with MSF over the years in a lot of different places. It's an extraordinary organization. Sarah, I appreciate what you do and thank you for talking to us today. Thank you.

WOZNICK: Thank you so much.

COOPER: Sarah Woznick with the international aid group Doctors Without Borders.

Now let's shift focus to another part of the growing Mideast crisis. Hamas militants sneaking into Israel through a series of tunnels. A little earlier today, our Wolf Blitzer talked to the spokesman for Israel's prime minister. He says Hamas is using those underground passageways to launch attacks inside Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK REGEV, SPOKESMAN FOR ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER: It has to be understood, just this morning, there were two squads of Hamas terrorists who came through tunnels. They entered Israel in the south. They tried to attack two different (INAUDIBLE) where civilians are, you know, farmers are just trying to conduct their daily lives. It shows who Hamas is. Hamas is an extremist, deadly terrorist organization. And the worst of all is, the people of Gaza are suffering because of Hamas. They didn't want this war, Wolf.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, tunnels have long played a role in Gaza. I want to talk about that with CNN correspondent Paula Hancocks.

Paula, you have actually been in some of the tunnels between - that used -- that exist between Gaza and Egypt. Explain how complex they are and what they're used for.

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Now these were the smuggling tunnels. Basically, when I went down a few years ago, there were hundreds of them. The littered the border between Gaza and Egypt. And the sort of things that they were used for was to bring basic goods, like food, like livestock sometimes, ceramics, building materials. And, of course, according to Israel, they also brought the weapons into Hamas. Those tunnels we weren't allowed to see, but it's well known that this is how Hamas was resupplying itself.

Now, these tunnels are incredibly basic. The ground there is clay and sand. And so they are very dangerous. They often send children in to actually build these tunnels because they're small enough to try and burrow through this earth. And it is incredibly basic. Obviously, many of them were collapsing on a daily basis. There were many fatalities of people who were building them and working there. They weren't the Hamas militants. The people who were working there, the people trying to get money in Gaza (ph).

COOPER: Obviously the tunnels that the Israeli authorities are talking about into Israel are used for different purposes, not for the passing of goods, but as Israel says for launching attacks. Hamas actually makes money from the tunnels from Egypt because of taxes over goods. It's one way they get income.

HANCOCKS: Absolutely. They cost about $50,000 to $100,000 to build these tunnels. And then after that they get about $5,000 per ton that is brought through. So you can imagine how quickly they're making their money back. Now, I should say that over recent years, and definitely over recent months, Egypt and Israel have been targeting these tunnels quite significantly. So, of course, that raises the question, how will Hamas resupply itself? The longer range rockets, according to Israel, come through these tunnels from Iran. We've seen -- I've seen myself rocket factories within houses in Gaza. The short- range missiles are build there. But longer-range missiles, they need from outside.

COOPER: Coming from outside.

HANCOCKS: So this is obviously why Israel and Egypt are targeting these tunnels.

COOPER: Paula Hancocks, appreciate it. Thanks very much.

A lot more to talk about. Investigators in Ukraine finally getting access to the plane crash site we are told after days of confusion and roadblocks. The trouble is the Russian backed rebels have been running the show in the region. So in a situation like that, how do officials negotiate with rebels? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, it's been four days since the Malaysia flight was shot down and finally the Russian-backed rebels are giving European monitors and some experts nearly unfettered access to the wreckage site. That according to a spokesman for the international monitors. But, still, it's not an easy task, no matter what. I want to bring in CNN military analyst Colonel Rick Francona, former U.S. military attache in Syria, and Chris Heben, a former U.S. Navy SEAL, who's joining us live in Cleveland.

Chris, you've negotiated with rebels in Africa, Pakistan. How tricky are those negotiations? I mean you're dealing with uncertain actors and often with different disparate groups.

CHRIS HEBEN, FORMER U.S. NAVY SEAL: It's very tricky. It's tenuous at best. There's always a quid pro quo. We're going to offer you this. In exchange, you must offer us this. And we will always do our offering first. If it's not reciprocated, then all future and subsequent deals are off the table and you must be prepared to enact that force that you talked about. It just can't be an empty promise. If you allude to it or hit to it or directly state it, if the quid pro quo was not mutual, it's not reciprocated, then you act on it. You have to.

COOPER: Rick, you have said -- intelligence - obviously other intelligence agencies are trying to figure out if Russia official, if Russian personnel were actually operating that piece of weaponry when it was fired.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes.

COOPER: How do they go about that?

FRANCONA: Well, it's not going to come from the crash scene. So all the investigation there is going to be on the actual crash itself. But as to would pushed the - who pushed the button in that unit, they're going to have to do a lot of intelligence work and some good old- fashioned police work. But they're going to have access to where it was actually done. That means locating where that missile was fired from.

They can do that. They probably have a pretty good idea by triangulating all the radar signatures that they have. And I'm told they have good coverage of that. They're going to have to go in there and talk to the local people and see what they know, find out if there's any communications there. But it's really going after a needle in a haystack.

COOPER: What about finding the actual piece of weaponry itself? I mean we've seen that video of - of the --

FRANCONA: Yes. If they had the piece of equipment itself, they could match that -- the radar on that piece of equipment to the radar signatures that we have. However, that just tells you that that's the piece of equipment. It doesn't tell you who actually was operating it at that time.

COOPER: Chris, you know, you're also now faced with this situation of, it's not just one rebel group, it's different kind of militia gaps, not necessarily with any kind of real central leader, although there is a so-called prime minister of the Donetsk region. But you have different crime scenes run by different groups.

HEBEN: Yes, it is a hodgepodge. It's a - it's a melting pot. Everyone wants a piece of the action and everyone is taking action to divert attention from the real agenda. And it is a - it is a tenuous situation. But the colonel is exactly right, human intelligence, signals intelligence are going to be key. But at the end of the day, we've got to find out who pushed that button.

COOPER: What kind of a process, Rick, is that? I mean, how long of a process are you - do you thinking we're looking at? I mean do you think it's actually possible? I mean you're talking about human intelligence -

FRANCONA: Yes.

COOPER: Getting on the ground in a rebel-held region, talking to locals about what they saw. FRANCONA: OK. They're not going to cooperate.

COOPER: Right.

FRANCONA: There's no way you're going to get permission to go in there and talk to the locals, even if there's a police investigation. They're going to make is so, so difficult. So you're going to have to do this clandestinely. Always difficult. Always takes a long time. I would - I would be surprised if we have the capability to do it. The Ukrainians might.

COOPER: Rick Francona, appreciate you being on. Chris Heben, as well. We appreciate you all watching in - here in the United States and around the world. I'll be back live between 8:00 p.m. and 10:00 p.m. A special two-hour edition of "AC 360" tonight. "WOLF" live from Jerusalem starts right now.

Wolf.