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Don Lemon Tonight

Outrage in New York City Over Chokehold Death; American Flags Disappeared on the Brooklyn Bridge; No Sign of Ceasefire in Gaza; FAA Bans All Flights to and From Tel Aviv; Propaganda War in the Media

Aired July 22, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Outrage in New York city where a funeral will be held tomorrow for the man who died in police custody after allegedly being put in a chokehold by an officer. The arrest of Eric Garner was caught on video, which has gone viral now.

And New York city's police commissioner today ordered what he called a top to bottom review of the department's training procedures, specifically in the use of force. Bill Bratton said also he revealed that the FBI is monitoring this incident, and he anticipates the justice department may open its own civil rights investigation. So we will have a full report ahead in our next hour.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

LEMON: Good evening, everyone. It's top of the hour. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: I'm Alisyn Camerota.

LEMON: Thank you so much for joining us here in New York.

Police are trying to find out who replaced the American flags on the Brooklyn bridge with two white flags, and why they did it.

CAMEROTA: So Don, the one thing that we can say for sure is that security at one of America's most famous landmarks is not what we all thought it was.

Meanwhile, it's been five days since Malaysia Flight 17 was shot out of the sky killing everyone on board of any closer to knowing exactly what happened and who is to blame?

LEMON: We care what you think about all of this. So make sure you tweet us using the #askCNNtonight. We have a panel of experts, a team of experts standing by to answer all of your questions this evening.

CAMEROTA: Also, no sign of a cease-fire in Gaza, is the showdown between Israel and Hamas turning to a new front, and that is a media war?

LEMON: Plus here at home, a man apparently held in a chokehold by New York city police dies. And the whole thing is caught on tape. We'll get into that little bit later on this evening. CAMEROTA: OK. So let's get right to the mysterious white flags on

the Brooklyn bridge. This is one of the busiest spots in all of New York city, yet it seems nobody noticed someone replacing the American flags that fly over the bridge with white flags.

CNN's Poppy Harlow joins us live tonight. Tell us what happened, Poppy.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good evening, guys.

I mean, it is just absolutely bizarre, and it's really, frankly, unsettling, because this is iconic. This is a landmark around the world. And it's frankly been a target for terrorism in the past. This is not terrorism-related. Let's be clear. But police had no idea and still have no idea how these white flags were placed, those American flags on top of the bridge.

What they do know is it happened sometime in the middle of the night. Construction workers are the ones that found out about it when they arrived to do their work. They told the police anti-terror squad came along with the emergency service unit, their Intel operations to try to get to the bottom of it. They're still trying to figure it out.

What is really clear and important here, as you guys have been talking about is the fact that this is a security lapse. An NYPD detective who has been with the department for a long time told me that much this afternoon saying we have standard security protocol. We have two vehicles on either side of the bridge, NYPD vehicles. Clearly that did not work here.

So what are they going to do to change that? They haven't said yet. What we do know, if we can show you some of these pictures, how odd it is how this happened. Apparently a group of people walk across the bridge in the middle of the night. They don't know if they are tied of it. We know that they covered the lights that illuminate the flag with aluminum foil and zip ties so no one could see what was going on, then replaced the flags. And frankly, no one knows where the original flags are at this point in time.

People I'm talking to here walking around the park below the bridge are unsettled. You know, they say, all right, just like a city councilman told me, it's flags this time. What could it be next time. It scarce them.

And also, it's important to make the point that NYPD is openly saying look, we don't operate cameras at that point on the bridge. I think we all thought, Alisyn, as you said last hour, we all thought that there were cameras everywhere. There are a lot of them. But NYPD did not have their own cameras on this, this time.

CAMEROTA: And we all hope that this is a wake-up call. And now they install cameras.

HARLOW: Right.

CAMEROTA: On the Brooklyn bridge there. Well, Poppy Harlow, thank you so much for that update.

LEMON: Meantime, we have some breaking news involving the former mayor of New York city and that's Michael Bloomberg. He is at JFK airport about to fly to Tel Aviv to protest the FAA's ban on U.S. airlines flying to Ben Gurion airport. He was there just moments ago, and here is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Sure, I'll take the flight. It's safe and it's efficient. And it's a great way to travel. And El Al is a great airlines. And we have a lot of American airlines that are great too. And I just want them all to be able to fly around the world and land safely in peace.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: What are you trying to prove by going there today?

BLOOMBERG: I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just trying to show that it's safe and it is a great place to visit. And Israel has a right to defend its people, and they're doing exactly what they should do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Much more on the former mayor's comments coming up just a little bit later here on CNN.

Meantime, the other developing news. We want to turn to the latest on Malaysia Flight 17.

U.S. official says they haven't been able to determine exactly who what fired the missile that brought down that plane. But a top Ukrainian official says he knows.

And CNN's Kyung Lah live in Kiev with the very latest on this for us.

Kyung, U.S. intelligence says it is unclear how much of a role Russia played. You were told today by the Ukrainian director of information that a Russian officer fired the missile that downed MH-17. What did he tell you?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What he is essentially saying is that Russia is to blame here. He is taking a very loud and bold step closer to Vladimir Putin. What we have heard throughout this investigation is that it was pro-Russian rebels who were train or perhaps financed by Russia. What the intelligence agency is saying is that it is a Russian officer who actually had his finger on the launch switch.

Here is what he told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The message you have is you take the flight.

BLOOMBERG: Sure I'd take the flight. It's safe and it's efficient.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: The mayor Michael Bloomberg, the former mayor of New York city at JFK just a short time ago.

But again, if you can just tell us, and we'll try to see if we can get that for you, essentially what he said?

LAH: What he is basically saying is that it is based on his intelligence not somebody who is somebody who is simply at arm's length from the Kremlin. What he is saying is that there is no way anyone other than a Russian officer would have the appropriate training to handle this type of device. This is a type of missile that requires a certain amount of military intelligence. And so, he is saying this is not just a band of guerrillas operating out there who could have launched this. It had to have been Russia.

Now as you mentioned, Don, American intelligence is countering that, saying that the evidence so far is inconclusive. Ukraine, though saying that they believe they know who is to blame here. Russia is saying this is all propaganda and simply made up.

LEMON: Kyung, I'm going to read the verbatim from your interview.

As Kyung said, you believe that was a Russian?

The spy chief says absolutely.

Kyung, a Russian trained.

Spy chief? A Russian trained well equipped well-trained officer.

Kyung, who pushed that button, right?

And the head of spy chief said, who pushed that button? And do you think that it was -- do you think at this point -- and he says deliberately.

So that was the interview. So many unanswered questions, Kyung, mainly about the number of bodies recovered from the site. What do we know that?

LAH: This is really an agonizing part of the story. And it's -- you know, you just feel for the families. Who we have heard throughout this in the last 24 hours is that a total of 282 bodies had been recovered from the site, that they had been transferred on to these refrigerated train cars, and that the train cars were on the move. They have landed in a city that is Ukrainian-controlled.

But now we're hearing that it's not 282 bodies. Dutch officials are saying they have only counted about 200. So where are all the other bodies? At this point, that number is inconclusive. There may be more than

200. But until they open up all the train cars and start pulling the remains out, they're not entirely sure.

What we do know is it's morning here in Kiev, Don. And at least 50 of the bodies are expected to be loaded on to planes and they will head to Amsterdam. It could take some time for all of these remains to be identified. Of course, the families there are waiting -- Don.

LEMON: All right, thank you very much, Kyung Lah. Appreciate that.

CAMEROTA: All right, Don. As you know, we've been asking viewers to tweet your questions tonight about Flight 17. And we have a team of experts to answer your questions.

So joining us now is David Soucie, he is CNN's safety analyst and author of "Why Planes Crash." Mary Schiavo, she is former inspector general of the DOT. She is now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents. Also aviation attorney Steven Marks.

It is great to have all of you. We have some intriguing questions that hopefully you all can answer for us.

So Mary, let's start with you. We have a question from Jeffrey, who asks, a soldier named Igor claimed they shot down the plane. So why aren't we going after him for questioning? The question is will investigators ever be able to actually question the rebels, Mary?

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION: I think that they will. And I take that from having worked on Pan Am 103 and all four of the planes on 9/11. It will take a long time, first and foremost, of course. They will look to the airline to be responsible for the passengers. But as time goes on, they will question the people. It will take a while. There is informants. Pan Am 103, there were 15,000 interviews. In 9/11, we took 153 depositions. And eventually I think we uncovered pretty much the fax. They will get them. It's just going to take a while.

LEMON: All right, David Soucie, this question is for you. It's from Ron. It's a good one. He says exactly how did that rocket get launched? Manually or computer generated? Plus is accuracy 100 percent? To the best of your knowledge, does someone actively have to shoot to use this rocket? They have to launch it, right?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well, in speaking with Colonel Francona earlier today, I got an education on missiles that I hadn't had before. So he was explaining to me how t they worked. And as far as launching the missile, there is a screen that you're looking at. It's a radar. And on that radar you basically have just a dot. It's a moving dot. And that dot can be honed in on. And once it's honed in on, the radar signal from that aircraft is coming down cone shape.

So when the missile is actually launched, it is honed in on that particular aircraft. It's not like it just missed the aircraft and went off and hit another aircraft. So it is definitely honing in on that. And the radar signal that is coming back down as a cone shape that comes back from the aircraft.

So the missile takes off and it goes. And if it senses one side or the other, in other words, it starts losing the radar signal, it will change its position and come back again and again and again and wind its way basically to where it's 150 meters from the aircraft.

At that point it deploys a large scattering of shrapnel, and that shrapnel is disabling to the aircraft. It's not like a single hit that explodes in the air like you would see other types of missiles. This actually disables the aircraft by tearing into it.

CAMEROTA: OK, Steven. The next tweet is for you. It comes from Frechie (ph) who said if Russia is responsible for shooting down MH- 17, then what? I guess the question is financially, would they be responsible to the families?

STEVEN MARKS, AVIATION ATTORNEY: I think the easiest thing for the families and its contractual liability under the treaty that Montreal governed the air carrier's liability. And for most part the carrier and their insurers are going to be responsible for paying the victims as they have in almost every major air tragedy, including 103 and the 9/11 incidents.

So I think it's unlikely. It will be a very difficult and long task to go after the Russian government. I think it will be, you know, a very difficult jurisdictionally and otherwise to prove a case against Russia. But in any event, the people will get fair compensation, as much as it can be. They'll never be properly compensated. But under the convention, they will be able to recover.

LEMON: Mary, Donn has a question for you. It is about why the airplane was flying in this area. And here what it said. It says why didn't Malaysian airlines try to avoid hostile airspace in conflict zone like other airlines are required?

They were actually, though, Mary, they were flying above the aye area they were supposed to about flying. They were at 33,000 feet, right?

SCHIAVO: Right game. But that is a great question because the question brings out the difference before -- between what is allowed by the government and what the airlines could do on their own.

Government regulations and the clearances for your airspace and the government warnings are a bare minimum. That, you have to comply with those to be able to get into the air. But if the airline wants to do something more to have an additional measure of safety, for example, Malaysia air, they asked for the flight level 35,000. Air traffic control said no, 33. They could have said you know what? We're going to take a different route. But they didn't. They accepted 33. That's what we allow.

We allow businesses to make decision as long as they comply with the bare minimum federal regs. So here are the regs, our country, other countries, et cetera. And the airlines can choose to do more to have a higher level of safety or a higher level of security. So there is choice in business. CAMEROTA: That is fascinating. Mary, David, Steven, thanks so much.

LEMON: These guys no everything. They can answer any question.

CAMEROTA: I know they can.

LEMON: When it comes to aviation. It's amazing.

CAMEROTA: I don't think it has to be aviation. I actually believe they could answer any question. Thank you so much.

All right, so when we come back, the battle between Israel and Hamas spreads to a new front. It's the media war. Both sides battling to win hearts and minds around the world.

And later, a New York city man dies in police custody, apparently in a chokehold. We'll talk about the latest on that.

LEMON: Yes, awful.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.

Breaking news. Two Israeli soldiers have been killed in combat in Gaza today, bringing to 29 the number of IDF troops killed since the Israeli incursion into Gaza. The idea now 635 Palestinians have been killed.

CNN's Martin Savidge live for us in Jerusalem now.

So Martin, hello to you. For the first time since 1991, the FAA has banned U.S. airlines from flying to or from Israel's Ben Gurion airport for up to 24 hours. What is the reaction there?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The reaction of the Israeli government, and I think of many people in Israel is that they are one, surprised, and two, angered by what has happened on a number of different levels.

I mean, first and foremost, it's going to have a huge economic impact. Like any modern nation you rely on air transport to conduct business. It is going to have a huge impact on that. But then also the government would say look, there were 90 rockets that were fired from Gaza at Israel yesterday. It appears that the international community is only concerned about one, and that was the one that landed in the small town of Yehud which is located right next door to Ben Gurion airport. And this is the sort of thing that Israel has says they had to put up with for so long which is one of the main reasons why the incursion is going on inside of Gaza at the moment.

But what is the reaction? The reaction of the aviation community is as they would say it give a prize to terrorists and stop the flights because it's a huge PR win for Hamas. Hamas has stated they were trying to do just what now has been achieved and that's to get the airlines stop flying here. LEMON: And Martin, Secretary Kerry and U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-

Moon arrived in Egypt yesterday to try to foster some sort of cease- fire. How does this impact those discussions?

SAVIDGE: Well, on a number of fronts. First of all, the aviation issue becomes a distraction. And then, secondary, is the fact that it is a nation here. Israel would say look, we are all for a cease-fire once it is agreed upon. They have said twice before they have agreed to stop any action militarily in Gaza during this current military operation. And in both cases they say Hamas has broken the deal.

Hamas will say it is no good if it is only to stop shooting because there are far more significant issues that have to be dealt with when it comes to the Palestinian people in Gaza. So that's the divide you have between the two elements that are fighting here at this particular time. So the world may want the cease-fire. The question mark is Israel and Hamas, can they agree upon it? And there is not really a strong feel thanksgiving can, at least not here now.

LEMON: That's the bottom line. Thank you very much, Martin Savidge.

CAMEROTA: While a showdown between Israel and Hamas is moving to now front, a propaganda war. CNN's Miguel Marquez explains that. And we want to warn you, there are disturbing images in this piece.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, SITUATION ROOM: That Israeli ground invasion of Gaza has been launched.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today's mid east violence might seem familiar. But in this environment, traditional media meeting new media meeting social media, the horrors of war playing out like never before.

A Palestinian child riddled with shrapnel screams for his father. Israeli parents and friends mourn the death of a 21-year-old soldier. So many sorrowful pictures. Right alongside them troubling images of resentment. Gazans cheer rockets headed toward Israel on a hilltop overlooking Gaza. Israelis gather to cheer airstrikes hitting Gaza city.

BEN WALLACE-WELLS, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: When you see the gruesome aftermath of rocket attacks on both sides of the border, there is a anger that many people feel and a compulsion to help that many people feel that I think is really palpable.

MARQUEZ: The fight rages in Gaza, spilling over into the media. Both sides trying to win over hearts and minds worldwide. Both sides blaming the other for the violence. Both sides trying to demonstrate the other more monstrous.

MARK REGEV, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: With Hamas wants to pile up the number of civilian victims for its own propaganda purposes.

HANAN ASHRAWI, PLO EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE MEMBER: This is just cruel and heartless propaganda. Blame the victim. Accuse them of using human shields. Blame them for the loss of their own lives.

MARQUEZ: The control of information propaganda, as old as war itself. This time around even celebrities like Rihanna caught in the fray. She tweeted the #freePalestinian, then deleted it minutes later after being inundated with questions about whether she supports Hamas. She later tweeted let's pray for peace and a swift end to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Is there any hope?

WALLACE-WELLS: You can't write a word about this conflict without getting just ripped apart from people on both sides.

MARQUEZ: In social media, words often turn cheap and very, very nasty. Dehumanizing both sides, turning destruction and horrible loss of life into mockery. On twitter, the #Hamas is responsible and #hitlerwasright flow with anti-Palestinian and anti-Semitic rhetoric.

WALLACE-WELLS: We're talking about a conflict where the dehumanization of the other side from both sides when you have Benjamin Netanyahu talking about telegenically dead Palestinians. When you have leaders of Hamas explicitly saying that they are targeting civilians, it's no surprise that that kind of dehumanization filters down.

MARQUEZ: The worry for many Israelis, Palestinians and Hamas are winning the argument, making Israel look like the aggressor, not simply defending its borders. A war of words almost as important as the actual fight.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: And there you have it.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Miguel did a great job. But what is the line between propaganda and reporting?

LEMON: Right. Even that social media, right? And we're going to talk to our panel coming up in a little bit. But someone said here on CNN, a lie goes all the way around the world on social media now days before the truth even gets out of bed. And people believe everything they read on social media. It is about, you know, 140 characters. People read headlines right now and they don't actually read what anyone is saying.

CAMEROTA: Right, the substance.

LEMON: The substance of what they're saying. So we're going to figure it out.

When we come back, we're going to dig a little deeper, as I said, into this media war between Israel and Hamas. And we're going to ask the question, is either side winning, or do both sides lose?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: There is some breaking news to tell you about.

Former president Bill Clinton is addressing the 20th international AIDS conference being held in Melbourne, Australia. And that of course is the conference that some of the world's leading researchers were heading to when they boarded Malaysia Flight 17 with of course tragic results.

HIV/AIDS protesters carrying banners interrupted the former president's speech moments after it began.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

CAMEROTA: OK. So in case you couldn't hear that, they were chanting "Clinton ends AIDS with the Robin Hood tax." And that Robin Hood tax would raise 50 cents on every $100 off every stock trade and that money would be put towards research.

LEMON: And of course, president Bill Clinton is always good when it comes to things like that. He said you got the message. We will let you talk for the longest. So now it's time for you to let us talk and figure out how we get all of this done. So that's all playing out in Melbourne right now.

CAMEROTA: He handled it well.

LEMON: Yes.

All right. You know, as the battle rages on the ground between Israel and Hamas, here with Alysin, I'm talking about this just a moment ago, both sides are also engaged in a media war, a propaganda war.

And we're joined now by Alan Dershowitz. He is the author of "The Trials of Zion" and Jenny Jones, she is author of "all roads lead Jerusalem" and Emily Shire, reporter at "The Daily Beast."

Good evening to all of you.

Emily, you first. You know, you wrote an article for "The Daily Beast" calling social media a parallel battleground in the Middle East. What did you mean by that specifically?

EMILY SHIRE REPORTER, THE DAILY BEAST: What I mean by that is while actual rockets are being lobbed in Israel, we have to understand that many people over the world feel deeply invested and feel an emotional connection. So instead they weigh in all across the globe. And they're lobbing attacks at each other, often really vitriolic, extremist attacks. Unfortunately, little information backing it up.

LEMON: Yes. Do you think that social media promotes extremism or it just reflects it?

SHIRE: I think it's both. You know, I mention in my article that social media manager for the African National Congress posted a very pro-Hitler, pro-holocaust message. And there are certainly studies that show there are rises in anti-Semitism particularly this year. So the thing with social media, it lets you retweet and share these

vitriolic messages so easily without any thought behind it. So I think there is a basis at a certain point. But then it spreads so fast and we just become desensitized to it. When we're using twitter, the truth of the matter is there is a lot of nuance to the Israeli- Palestinian contract. And in 140 characters and certainly not a hash tag, you cannot fit that in there.

LEMON: There is a lot of room for error in there and not much, much room, if any for context.

You know, Alan, Michael Oren who is a former Israeli ambassador to the U.S. and a CNN Middle East analyst wrote a very controversial op-ed about the battle of hearts and minds in the Middle East. And he says the international media is unwittingly, quote, "complicit in Hamas' media tradition strategy because it shows civilian casualties obsessively." Do you agree with that?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, THE TRIALS OF ZION: Well, I think context has to be provided. There have been tragically many, many civilian casualties. But the reason is because Hamas deliberately uses Palestinian civilians as human shields. Some people deny that.

Let me read you from one of the former leaders, one of the leaders of Hamas who have been saying this for years. Quote, "we have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, the mujahedeen in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if we are saying we desire death like you desire life."

Now, I don't think that Palestinian mothers want to see their children die. I do think that Hamas leaders are deliberately putting their children and their women in harm's way.

And let's also remember that there was no blockade of Gaza between 2005 and 2007. Gaza could have become the Singapore of the Mediterranean. The blockade began only after thousands of rockets were sent.

LEMON: So Alan, Alan, here is the thing with that. When we go on to talk about these issues, it becomes really tough to do it in the time that we have because then you to start debating the whole crisis and how it began. And I'm not sure if this medium is the right place for it. When we call it news, it's about new. It's about what is happening.

DERSHOWITZ: Context is everything.

LEMON: I agree. Hang on. Let me finish context is everything --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: By saying Palestinian women -- Alan, will you let me talk, please?

DERSHOWITZ: Sure. LEMON: By saying that Palestinian families are more apt to putting

their children in harm's way is disrespectful and insulting to probably everyone in our audience.

Jenny, do you agree or disagree?

DERSHOWITZ: The point is that Hamas leaders who do it, not the Palestinians, don. They don't want their children in harm's way.

LEMON: You're saying that -- Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: Let me finish now. Please. You made your point.

LEMON: Hang on, hang on, Alan. I'm going to let you finish.

Jenny, I'll let you finish. I just don't want all of us talking at the same time.

DERSHOWITZ: That's the fact. And you can't deny it.

LEMON: Hang on. This is weird because we're all in Skype.

So Jenny, hang on.

Alan, I'm going to let you start over with your point. If you guys will just listen to me, I will let everybody make their point. If I tell you that I need to get in and jump in, please let me do it.

So Alan, go ahead. Start over and finish your point.

DERSHOWITZ: Ban Ki-Moon today acknowledged that Hamas uses mosques, uses hospitals and uses schools to send rockets. It's not that the Palestinian mothers want to see their children die, of course not. It's that Hamas leaders hide underground in bunkers. They don't build bunkers for their civilians. They definitely expose their civilians to death so that they can parade them in front of cameras. That's the reality. That's their strategy. And it's working with the media. And the people have to understand that that's the Hamas strategy and it's continuing to work and it's continuing to cause civilian casualties.

LEMON: OK, Alan, thank you for saying that. The way you said it in the beginning, it sounded like Palestinian women were putting their own children in harm's way.

DERSHOWITZ: I didn't say that. You misinterpreted it. Please play back the tape. I never said that. I never would say it. You said that.

LEMON: OK. That's fine. I'm not here to argue with you, Alan. I'm just here to conduct the interview.

DERSHOWITZ: Just make sure you state my views correctly.

LEMON: OK. You're here. You can do that. All right?

DERSHOWITZ: Sure.

LEMON: Go ahead. Jenny?

DERSHOWITZ: In 2005, Gaza was freed. And there were no blockades. It was only after thousands of rockets were sent that the blockade began. So the blockade is not the cause of the rockets. It's the result of the rockets.

LEMON: Go ahead, jenny.

JENNY JONES, AUTHOR, ALL ROADS LEAD JERUSALEM: Not be able to go off on to his tangent?

LEMON: Say again, jenny?

JONES: I was under the impression that you had already informed him that he would not be able to go off into this tangent.

LEMON: Well, he's free to speak. And again, I'm here. It's not a tangent. That's his views. But I think there is a miscommunication.

JONES: Those were his words, actually.

LEMON: There is a bit of miscommunication because we're on Skype. So it's hard for you to hear me and Alan to hear U.N. me because there is a lot of cross talk.

So anyway, Jenny, now, go ahead.

JONES: He may not be saying that mothers are putting their babies in harm's way, but by saying Hamas is doing such a thing, he is saying fathers are. He is saying an entire people are embracing this inhuman strategy which no, no civilization would embrace.

It is part of a long-standing dehumanization of the Palestinian people, a way of making them to appear as another, a people that could not be understood by good western people. I believe Mr. Oren in his disgusting article went on to say that journalists, although they're doing their best, are falling prey to a sophisticated PR campaign in which people are parading their children, their dead bodies, their dead children, heads blown off, bellies eviscerated in order to earn PR points. This is the most disgusting thing I have read in years. And I have been reading on the subject for many, many years. Again, I've written a book.

LEMON: OK, Jenny.

JONES: About the --

DERSHOWITZ: You're not blaming the right people. You ought to be blaming Ban Ki-Moon that made the statement. You ought to be blaming opting Hamas who said we have formed human chains of the shields of the women, the children, the elderly and the mujahedeen.

LEMON: There is an issue with the audio because of Skype. And so everybody is talking at the same time and not hearing each other's points. So if they have stopped speaking, I want to go back. I want to let Alan finish his point quickly, and then we will move on.

Go ahead, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: My point is that it's not that Michael Oren and I are saying this. It's that the leaders of Hamas are saying it. And I quoted one of the leaders of Hamas, talked about how we have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly. And they acknowledge that.

And Ban Ki-Moon today condemned Hamas for firing rockets from schools, from hospitals. It's a reality. You can see photographs of it. You can see videos of rockets coming from schools. It's part of their policy to create human shields in order to induce Israel to kill as many Palestinian civilians as possible. That is not racism. That's the reality. And if there is any racism, it comes from the people who are implementing this policy.

By the way, it's not only true of Hamas, it's true in many of the areas where radical folks are using suicide bombers, suicide bombers obviously are designed to kill the bomber. And so we have to face the reality that the reason there are so many civilian casualties are because of Hamas uses this strategy of human shields. And as I said before, 700 Syrians were killed in the last two days. And the media --

LEMON: All right, Alan. I've got to get to a break. I'm really sorry about that. I'm sorry about the Skype issues and about the communication issues. But when you're dealing with that and everybody is missing each other's point.

I want to invite everyone back when we don't have the technical issues because it's a conversation that we really need to have.

CAMEROTA: And it's always a heated conversation.

LEMON: It's always a heated conversation.

CAMEROTA: And you are brave man, Don Lemon. You take it on every night.

LEMON: Well, you know.

CAMEROTA: You saw me sitting here quietly watching.

LEMON: It is going to happen. That why --

CAMEROTA: It's worth it. It's worth having that conversation and everybody has to get their message out. But it's impossible to have it calmly.

LEMON: Yes.

Up next, New York city's police commissioner orders a top to bottom review of training procedures after a man dies in police custody, allegedly due do a chokehold by an officer. We've got that story coming up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The last words of a Staten Island man being arrested by New York city police, "I can't breathe." He was allegedly caught in a chokehold, and then he died.

Susan Candiotti has more, and some of this, I have to warn you, very disturbing to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Eric Garner didn't want to go to jail. He had been through the routine 30 times before, busted for nonviolent offenses. But this time after allegedly selling loose cigarettes, a struggle, and in an apparent chokehold, the 43-year-old asthmatic diabetic grandfather is dead.

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO, NEW YORK CITY: This is a terrible tragedy that occurred yesterday, a terrible tragedy that no family should have to experience.

CANDIOTTI: It's painful to watch. Several officers take him down, one wrapping an arm around Garner's neck, his head pressed on the sidewalk. It goes on for 20 seconds. The officer lets go, and Garner says --

ERIC GARDNER, VICTIM: I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe.

CANDIOTTI: He says he can't breathe. Then appears to go limp.

BILL BRATTON, NYPD POLICE COMMISSIONER: As defined in the department's patrol guide that this would appear to have been a chokehold.

CANDIOTTI: Finally, EMTs arrive. One feels for a pulse. Garner, overweight, is loaded on to a stretcher. Police say he suffers a heart attack on the way to the hospital, and is pronounced dead an hour later. Demonstrators angry over what happened are staging protests. Garner's family has hired an attorney. Police expect a lawsuit.

ESAW GARNER, ERIC GARNER'S WIFE: He was very, very not into violence. He never had a violent bone in his body.

CANDIOTTI: An autopsy is under way to determine cause of death. A district attorney is investigating whether charges will be filed. And police internal affairs is looking into whether a chokehold was used, violating police guidelines.

We asked forensic expert Lawrence Kobilinsky to analyze the takedown.

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC EXPERT: Obviously, the officer wanted to restrain a big man, 6'3", 350 pounds. But this is exactly what the police tell you not to do. It was very brief, but nevertheless, it's still a chokehold. CANDIOTTI: So the damage is done, even if it's only for a few

seconds?

KOBILINSKY: The damage is done.

CANDIOTTI: Daniel Pantaleo, the officer applying the alleged chokehold, has twice been accused of violating civil rights on the job, with one lawsuit settling out of court.

Pantaleo and one other officer are on desk duty. Four paramedics are suspended without pay. At the NYPD's request, the FBI is monitoring the case, which may be sent to the justice department for a possible civil rights investigation.

Filmmaker Spike Lee is posting a video with his take, splicing up graphic chokehold scene from his award winning film "Do The Right Thing "with Garner's arrest.

New York's police commissioner promises a full review of police training, when to use force.

BRATTON: What I'm looking for is quality, not quantity. And by quality I mean having a problem successfully addressed. If it requires arrest, fine. But I want to make sure our officers understand that they're given great powers of discretion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Susan Candiotti joins us now live.

The commissioner, I watched that press conference, is very pained and serious.

CANDIOTTI: Yes.

LEMON: Is this a turning point, at least we hope for the department?

CANDIOTTI: You know, it could very well be. Although, some people within the department are still questioning whether this was a chokehold. But there is a very thorough investigation going on now until they get the results and the cause of death. But everyone knows this is something that didn't have to happen.

LEMON: It did not. And the video is right in front of your very, Alysin.

CAMEROTA: It is. I mean, the video doesn't always tell the full story. We have to wait for an autopsy. He may have had a cardiac problem.

CANDIOTTI: Exactly.

CAMEROTA: We don't exactly know.

LEMON: But the use of force in this particular case, that's what I'm talking about. That is undeniable there. And my heart, my prayers go out for the family. It's just awful.

CAMEROTA: Susan, thank you so much.

CANDIOTTI: You're welcome.

CAMEROTA: So coming up, the police department promises a top to bottom review, as Susan just said. But will that stop tragedies like this happening?

We have a debate on all this next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Is the alleged chokehold incident that we just show you'd an example of excessive police force?

Here to debate that is Errol Louis, a CNN political commentator and Lou Palumbo, a retired law enforcement agency of NASA county police department.

Gentlemen, thank you so much for being here.

So we just showed this very disturbing video. And you see this low level street hustler as he has been described. He was selling individual cigarettes. That was his crime.

LEMON: They call them untaxed cigarettes.

CAMEROTA: Six police officers respond. He says something to the effect not you guys again. He says hey, hey. He puts his hands up. And then you see what happens here.

Lou, why did it take six officers, and why does one appear to grab him from around the neck and put him in some form of a chokehold?

LOU PALUMBO, DIRECTOR, ELITE INTELLIGENCE AND PROTECTION: Well, the first thing I'm going to say is this gentleman was 6'3" and 350 pounds. And it's not uncommon to have multiple officers restrain you, because if three or four officers restrain you, they have to use les force, there is less risk of injury to the individual they're taking into custody and subsequently to themselves. The simple fact of the matter here is if this individual had simply complied with the arrest, which he was legally required to do --

LEMON: But Lou, I love you. We're going to disagree on this one, OK. Because this man is standing there. According to his family, he is a docile man. I watched this video over and over. I wrote a commentary about it. I listened to the guy. The guy is saying, you know, you guys keep bothering me. I'm doing my thing, whatever, you keep accusing me. And then he raise his hands up. And says don't touch me. Please don't touch me. Please don't touch me. He is not fighting with officers. His language is saying don't touch me. But he is not fighting. He is not resisting arrest as far as I can see in that video. And if you listen to it, he is not. Am I wrong? Did you watch the video? ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, it goes without saying,

if everybody did what they're supposed to do, there would be no need for police, right? So, could he have handled it better? Well, sure. It have been nice if hey he marched over and did what they wanted.

PALUMBO: The situation did not warrant what the officers did to him.

You know, Don, that's a tangential issue here. Regardless, if he was engaged in some type of illegal activity and the police elected to take action, part of which was placing him under request, he is required to comply, otherwise you have an additional charge of resisting arrest.

CAMEROTA: But Lou, hold on. Chokeholds have been banned for 20 years.

PALUMBO: That's correct.

CAMEROTA: By the NYPD. Yet somehow police officers are still using them. There have been a thousand complaints against the NYPD in the past four years. So, somewhere training has gone wrong.

PALUMBO: I can't arbitrate that with you. I think that we have to visit the training component or mechanism here. I'm not saying what the police officer did was correct. I'm just here to explain to you that when you're in the throe of the moment, things get kind of crazy.

These two guys are sitting at this guy, and the first two that encountered him are trying to figure out how they're going to control him. The method may have been wrong. I'm not arbitrating that, you know. It's easy for us to sit here.

LEMON: The guy did not fight back. He went down right away. And you could hear him as soon as they took him down, I can't breathe, I can't hear him.

PALUMBO: He is asthmatic.

LEMON: You're hearing him once they released his throat him going I can't breathe. And again, as Alisyn said, the choke -- show us the chokehold and how it works.

PALUMBO: Absolutely. I just want to say one thing to you, Don.

LEMON: Go ahead.

PALUMBO: You know, we're glossing over the fact that precipitated the conflict with the police. They were not converging on him. They afford him an opportunity to submit to arrest. He chose not to. At that point it's their legal requirement.

CAMEROTA: But he wasn't a violent criminal.

PALUMBO: Alisyn, that's not the issue. Well don't know case by case if you're violent or how you're going to react. All I know is when we ask you to comply, we expect you to comply. LEMON: Errol, they knew this guy. Because again, this guy did sell

un-taxable -- But they sell bodegas.

LOUIS: There is a larger issue here about quality of life enforcement. I mean, you know, the penalty for what he did, if he did do what they said, selling loose cigarettes for 50 cents here. would it then to give him a ticket that he would have to pay. That's it.

Maybe they have another question for him. But it's not like this is a menace to society. It's a nuisance to the merchants and to the people in the neighborhood and the cops were there presumably for that reason.

CAMEROTA: I need to get in this statement from the Patrolman's Benevolent Association because that officer who did get him from around the neck has been reassigned. The association says it is, a quote, "completely unwarranted knee-jerk reaction for political reasons." Your response?

LEMON: Yes. Well, that officer too has issues. He was sued and it was settled out of court. He cost the city and taxpayers $30,000 for falsifying a police report. Also violating two people's civil rights, making them strip and squat in public. And then there is another lawsuit pending against him that the department won't talk about for similar issues. But again, you had this thing.

PALUMBO: What this is really going to do, Don, is to show you.

LEMON: Quickly.

CAMEROTA: Ten seconds.

PALUMBO: What a chokehold is. You come in the front with the forearm into locked with the elbow, you come in behind the head and you press. And what you do is you exert pressure through the throat as I'm showing you, this is a chokehold. That's -- it's all banned. All of it is banned. But that's a strict demonstration of what the chokehold was, which was in fact in policy with the LAPD for a very long time as well.

CAMEROTA: Errol --

LOUIS: The guy did not have to end up that way.

CAMEROTA: Thanks for exploring this was, guys.

PALUMBO: Sure.

CAMEROTA: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)