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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

U.S. Halts Flights; Death Toll Mounts in Gaza; Obama Signs Condolence Book; Flight 17 Remains Delivered to Kharkiv for Transport; Black Boxes Turned Over to Malaysia Air

Aired July 22, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good afternoon. I'm Anderson Cooper. It is Tuesday, July 22nd. I want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world AT THIS HOUR. A lot to get to in this hour.

The breaking news. Several U.S. airlines are suspending all flights in and out of Israel's main international airport in Tel Aviv to insure the safety, they say, and security of customers and employees. One plane was even diverted midflight after reports of a rocket or associated debris near Ben Gurion International Airport moments ago. Delta Flight 468 carrying 273 passengers, 17 crew, was diverted to Paris. This map from Flight Tracker shows how the plane turned around just past Athens.

Joining me in Jerusalem is Wolf Blitzer. Rene Marsh is in Washington. Our Chad Myers is in Atlanta.

So, Wolf, exactly how close did the rocket get to the airport? What damage, if any, did it do?

WOLF BLITZER, ANCHOR, CNN'S "THE SITUATION ROOM": It did some damage just outside the airport, a couple miles or so from the airport. Clearly, it looked like they were - they must have been aiming for the Ben Gurion International Airport, which is outside of Tel Aviv. But a rocket came in, did some damage to a house nearby. Enough damage to convince Delta to stop flying into Israel. In fact, that flight, 468, is a daily nonstop flight from JFK in New York to Tel Aviv. I was -- happened to have taken that flight about 11 or 12 days ago when I came here. It's a regularly scheduled flight on its way to Tel Aviv. One of our own correspondents, John Voss, was on that flight. He alerted us that for some reason, he didn't know what, the pilot in mid - approaching Greece, as you point out, had to turn around and they went to Paris and they're, obviously, not going to come to Israel.

Other -- the other U.S. carriers that fly non-stop between the United States and Israel are U.S. Airways and United. United and U.S. Airways, Delta. It looks like even though the FAA hasn't told them to go ahead and suspend or cancel all flights to Israel, it looks like they're all going to go ahead out of an abundance of caution. They didn't want to take any chances. I suspect in part because of what happened over Ukraine with the Malaysian Airline Flight 17 the other day. They just want to be on the safe side if rockets or so are coming closing to Ben Gurion Airport, they don't want to be in a position of coming in from the Mediterranean and landing right now. Now, there is a statement from Israel about all of this. A spokesman

for the Israel Airport Authority just gave a statement to CNN. There is - and this is the statement. I'll be precise, Anderson. "There is no decision on behalf of the U.S. government about flights to Israel." That's referring to the FAA. The FAA's considering recommending that U.S. carriers stop flying, but they haven't made a formal decision, I am told, yet. There is a statement - this Israeli statement says from Delta and U.S. Air, which decided unilaterally to cancel flights that were scheduled to land this evening in Israel.

Now, the Israel Transport Ministry and the Israel Airport Authority, they are acting to try to explain to U.S. carriers, indeed other international carriers, they believe Ben Gurion Airport is safe for departures and landing. The transportation minister of Israel, Mr. Yisrael Katz, called this evening on all U.S. airlines to return to routine flights scheduled, noted the Ben Gurion Airport is safe for departures and landings and he says there is no fear for the safety of planes and passengers. He adds this. He says there is no reason for American carriers to stop flying to Israel and thus give a prize to terror.

But it's clearly a very, very significant development. EL AL, as you know, the Israeli national airline, they fly nonstop from the United States to Israel. But if Delta, United, U.S. Airways, if they cancel those flights, that's going to be a significant blow.

Now, Anderson, all of this is happening the day after the State Department issued a travel advisory last night recommending that all nonessential visits by American citizens to Israel be canceled. Not only to Israel, but to the West Bank. And they certainly say this has been in effect for a while. You shouldn't go to the Gaza Strip under any circumstances right now. But they did issue that travel advisory last night recommending that nonessential visits to Israel be canceled, at least for now. It's going to be a severe blow to the Israeli economy which relies heavily, as you know, on tourism, especially at this time of the year. But this is one of the ramifications of what's been going on between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

COOPER: And also, Wolf, just a psychological blow, just adding to a sense of isolation. Has there been any statement by Hamas on this? Because certainly I imagine they will play this up as - as a victory of some sort.

BLITZER: Yes, they certainly will. Remember, last week, I spoke to a Hamas spokesman, Osama Hamdan, and he said they were - they had issued a statement recommending that all international carriers, especially U.S. carriers, stop flying to Ben Gurion Airport. That caused quite a bit of a stir. That was about a week or so ago when Hamas made that statement. Some interpreted that statement as a Hamas threat to international carriers, U.S. carriers flying in and out of Ben Gurion International Airport. Don't fly there because your planes and your passengers could be in trouble.

But the planes still came in. And now in the aftermath of this actual rocket hitting an area not too far away from Ben Gurion Airport, I guess these U.S. carriers are deciding to err on the side of caution, hope -- suspend flights for now. I suspect also, as I said, I think what happened to the Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 probably is in the back of their minds as well.

COOPER: Yes, Rene Marsh in Washington. What kind of reaction are we getting from the White House, if any?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, just a short time ago, this very issue came up at the press briefing. And without further notice, I want you to just take a listen to the White House spokesperson, Josh Earnest, as he spoke about the decision as far as the FAA goes and what kind of actions they will be taken based on this developing news. So here he is right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, as it relates to the airport in Gaza, it's my understanding that the FAA has not issued any notices related to the ongoing violence in that region of the world. I do think this does serve to illustrate though that its individual carriers who make the decision about their flight plans and whether or not to alter specific routes based on hostilities on the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARSH: All right, so - so you just heard him there saying essentially it wasn't going to be the FAA to make the call to tell carriers not to fly over this area. They were essentially leaving that decision up to the carriers. Very interesting to hear that because just days ago following the shootdown of Malaysian Flight 17, IONA (ph), which is an industry group that represents airlines, put out a statement that specifically said it is up to the government to tell airlines where it's safe to fly and where it's not safe to fly. So here you have the White House saying, we're leaving it up to the carriers. And just a couple of days ago in this statement we have this industry group, IONA, saying it's up to the government to tell us. So it seems like something needs to be worked out here as far as streamlining the process to determine when it's safe, when it's not safe for these carriers to fly at this point.

Anderson.

COOPER: I want to bring in - I want to bring in Chad Myers to the conversation, Rene.

Chad, I know you're actually tracking flights over the area now. What are you seeing?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, the flight that was in question, the 468, really took an unusual path. Clearly in the middle of the flight, well past France, well past Paris, all the way down to Greece, a u-turn, bringing that plane all the way back up here into France, into Charles de Gaulle. But we have other graphics and other machines and other planes in the area still. This is not a time that a lot of U.S. carriers fly to Europe. This is not really the on time. This is the time that other carriers are flying from Europe back to the U.S. So we can switch to the other graphic here showing you, right here,

Tel Aviv, not much in the way of any airfare any place whatsoever. Actually, you can't even see that on that maybe. Maybe you can zoom out that screen a little bit so we can see here that Tel Aviv, and all the way around from Lebanon -- here you go, very good guys, thank you - and other planes coming across here, across from Cyprus, across Greece. But most of the planes avoiding the area altogether. And, of course, they're all avoiding the area over here in the eastern Ukraine. Just a small sliver of safe airspace across this area, Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Chad, appreciate it. Rene Marsh, Wolf Blitzer, as well. A lot more to cover. We're going to continue to follow this breaking news and get the latest from the ground in Gaza coming up next. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: As we've been reporting now, several U.S. airlines are suspending all flights in and out of Israel's main international airport in Tel Aviv, Ben Gurion International Airport, because of security concerns as this conflict between Israel and Hamas intensifies.

I want to bring in our Richard Quest and CNN military analyst Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, who join me here.

First of all, Rick, the capabilities that Hamas has with these rockets, I mean, they're basically point and shoot. They're not actually tracked. They can't necessarily aim for the airport and know that they're going to hit the airport.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They just fired on the azimuth, I do believe (ph), where the airport is. I mean they used - they used Google Earth. They set up a protractor and they fired down an azimuth. But once this thing leaves the rail, they're totally unguided. Totally at the whims of the wind and the manufacturing defects. These are not high-precision weapons.

COOPER: But - and they're not weapons that can be changed or altered once fired. They're not guided in any way.

FRANCONA: No, no, they're completely unguided. And they've got two -- the --

COOPER: So -

FRANCONA: (INAUDIBLE) Five will get there and the M302 will get there.

COOPER: So there a chance of actually hitting an aircraft or even attempting to hit an aircraft with something at this distance is --

FRANCONA: Infinite decimal (ph). Hard to calculate. But they can hit the runways. They can hit the terminal. They can hit the airport.

COOPER: Richard, though, as you and I were talking about during the break, they don't need - they just need to come within several miles of the airport and we see the results here with Delta and other carriers starting to stop flights.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: You only have to have a rocket in the air in the general vicinity before you're going to start saying, hang on, do we really want to be flying with a lumbering plane at lower altitudes at slower speeds. Look, there is - I do not know whether Delta, U.S. Airways and United are being overly cautious in taking this action. Air France, Lufthansa, Turkish (ph), BA, they're all still flying in and out.

COOPER: BA had a flight that just -

QUEST: Just - BA had a flight, just left. Air France had a flight just arrived. Turkish is on approach.

COOPER: Obviously also EL AL will continue to fly.

QUEST: Right. I don't know whether Delta and the U.S. carriers are being overly cautious. But I do know, you cannot ignore when the three largest airlines in the world choose to make this decision. The new American is the largest carrier. United is the largest carrier by certain measures. You can't ignore their decision, right or wrong.

COOPER: And it certainly has - I mean as we talked about with Wolf, it has ramifications, just psychological, beyond economic impact, psychological impact on the state of Israel and the people of Israel, a sense of isolation.

FRANCONA: Yes, and now they're being treated like a third world country. And, you know, they always prided themselves as being one of the more stable parts.

COOPER: Yes.

FRANCONA: Even in this volatile part of the world, you could always rely on the stability of Israel. And now this is being called into question.

QUEST: And from the aviation industry, it creates more of a mess than ever before. All those passengers that Delta has refused to carry to Tel Aviv today, because as Chad was showing, the plane's gone back to Paris.

COOPER: To Paris.

QUEST: Who's Delta's joint venture partner? Air France.

COOPER: Air France.

QUEST: Who will escort (ph) the passengers on? Air France. Many of those passengers still wanting to go to Tel Aviv. If Air France doesn't pull their flights, will be on the Air France flight, assuming (INAUDIBLE).

COOPER: So do you think other airlines now, Air France and others, are looking at this situation, trying to determine whether or not to cancel?

QUEST: They're looking to decide what to do. When there used to be extreme terrorism and violence on the ground, many carriers refused, because their staff refused, to overnight in Tel Aviv. They would fly in, and they would fly to Cyprus for overnight and then do the return.

That's not the issue here, because now you're concerned with the aircraft in air on low approach. I guess every airline's now making their decision.

COOPER: All right. We'll see what happens. Richard Quest, Colonel Rick Francona as well, thank you very much.

Now, more on the escalating violence, the death toll continuing to mount as the U.S. pushes for a cease-fire in the fight between Hamas and Israel.

Here's where the casualties stand right now. So far, 604 Palestinians killed, more than 4,700 wounded since Israel began its Operation Protective Shield, which is what they call it, two weeks ago.

It's not clear how many Hamas militants have actually been killed. In total, 27 Israeli soldiers have died, more than double the number killed in the war with Hamas in 2008 and 2009. Two Israeli civilians have also been killed.

Our Karl Penhaul join us now from Gaza City. So where is the fighting focused right now, Karl?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The fighting is going on so thick and so fast, really, Anderson, that it's very difficult to keep track of the casualty figures.

My understanding is they have also gone up in the course of this afternoon, but over -- as we were speaking, as you were speaking, over my shoulder there, on the eastern part of Gaza, there seem to be heavy Israeli air strikes going on. Heavy pounding is going on. Periodically we see plumes of smoke going up there.

We have, in the course of the afternoon, also heard naval gunboats in action, firing artillery onto the Gaza Strip mainland.

And we've also seen Hamas militants are not putting their heads down. They're continuing to fight. And we have seen rockets going out.

We saw what appeared to be a very large, single launch, and then from a single position, a multiple launch of four or five rockets, Anderson.

COOPER: We're also getting some reports that morgues in Gaza are simply too crowded with bodies, and they're trying to get family members to come and take those bodies away quickly because they frankly don't have room.

Have you heard that? PENHAUL: Yeah, absolutely, Anderson. We were down at the morgue at the

main hospital, Shifa Hospital, on Sunday. Even on Sunday, that morgue was full. There wasn't enough space in their refrigerated space. Their bodies were on the floor.

Bodies were strewn across the floor. The doctors didn't have time to do any autopsies. They barely had time to get them in, wrap them up, and get them out the door.

And so now in the last 18 hours, the Palestinian health authority is saying that just in the last 18 hours about 70 new deaths. And so I can't imagine what the scenes are down in that morgue, haven't been down there this morning.

As far as burying them, well, according to Islamic ritual, the dead should be buried before dusk. And when we went to a funeral the other day of three children killed in the afternoon, the mourners literally hoisted those dead bodies on stretchers and ran to the burial site to put them in the ground before dusk.

So some very dramatic scenes, and there really is no dignity in death because, as you say, no space in the morgue. Their final resting place is on a blood-soaked floor right now, Anderson.

COOPER: Karl Penhaul, stay safe. Thank you, Karl.

We'll be continuing to check in with our first responders throughout the region.

Our other big story today, of course, the plane crash in Ukraine, the bodies have been moved away from the scene. They're now in areas controlled by the Ukrainian government, and the black boxes are heading to investigators.

We'll go live to Ukraine, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back. I want to bring you some new pictures from the Dutch embassy in Washington. Within the past few minutes, President Obama signed a condolence book for the many Dutch nationals killed aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is an opportunity for me to extend, on behalf of all the American people, our deepest condolences over the loss of family and friends, to express our solidarity with the people of the Netherlands with whom we've been friends and had the deepest ties for centuries.

We will work with them to make sure loved ones are recovered, that a proper investigation is conducted.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Earlier today, a train delivered all but a few of the 298 people killed last Thursday to relatives safely in the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. The remains are being held in a factory, awaiting flights to the Netherlands that are due to get under way tomorrow, we're told.

Also aboard the train were the plane's so-called black boxes, the flight data and cockpit voice recorders that we know now will be analyzed in the United Kingdom.

From Washington comes this U.S. government graphic depicting the Malaysian airliner's flight path in yellow, the path of the surface to air missile in green, the point of impact and the main debris site.

Speaking today on CNN, a Ukrainian government spokesman claimed a Russian trained officer, quote, "pushed that button deliberately," but a top Russian diplomat claims pro-Russian militants may have gotten confused, thinking they were targeting a military plane instead.

Kharkiv is an important stop on the final journey of MH-17's victims. Though still in eastern Ukraine, this is territory held by the Ukrainian government, not by the separatist, so that is very significant.

My CNN colleague Nick Paton Walsh is there. Nick, thanks for joining us. What do we know about exactly where and how the remains, how the victims are being kept?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we saw early this morning the trains make their way into the rail station near where I'm standing, the Malaysian official, because they have experts here assisting in the investigation, telling me the separatist handing over to him 282 bodies and what he referred to in intact condition, a good condition, so not damaged by the blast that took out MH-17 out of the sky.

He did also say, much more troubling, that he was handed 87 different body parts by the separatists as well, so the task we always knew was going to be difficult for Dutch officials to identify everybody on that plane, and they will be doing that in the Netherlands rather than here to speed up the process of bringing that back as quickly as possible towards their families.

But perhaps some good news, the vast majority of those bodies have been delivered in comparatively good condition, making perhaps identification somewhat easy.

But the process now continues, going through the bodies here, putting them in coffin, which have been shipped in, some on Dutch military aircraft, and then the flights will begin.

That Malaysian security official, perhaps optimistic, saying he hoped it might happen, at some point in the early hours of the morning, but a very large task ahead, Anderson.

The officials here from all over the world come to try and assist the Ukrainian government, and the key thing is getting those bodies back as quickly as possible to their home country, Anderson.

COOPER: So, Nick, the Netherlands has already sent a plane? There's a plane on the ground that's going to take the remains back to the Netherlands?

PATON WALSH: Well, the Dutch military and government have been sending a variety of airplanes in here, some of which we saw arriving last night at the airport, shipping in equipment

There are even Ukrainian customs officials to try and assist those pallets through. We're told those actually were coffins being used to take the bodies back.

From what I'm hearing from the Malaysian official is there aren't actually aircraft yet on the ground here to take those bodies back towards Amsterdam. But you can imagine, perhaps, a shuttle system between Amsterdam and here so (inaudible), which will that process.

We understand that as soon as the first bodies are able to leave here, Ukraine, to go back towards Amsterdam, that will happen, so perhaps this is a process that will continue over and in the days ahead.

Anderson?

COOPER: All right, Nick Paton Walsh, the beginning of a long journey home, finally one step closer and finally out of territory controlled by pro-Russian rebels.

Coming up, we'll talk with a medical examiner about how investigators will identify those remains. That's in about 15 minutes from now.

A lot ahead, joining me now with much more on the knowns and the unknowns and the various claims surrounding this disaster, CNN military analyst and retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, along with CNN safety analyst and former air investigator David Soucie.

David, you actually have brought a black box. Obviously, it's not black. What -- is this basically the same --

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Basically. It's a different model, different manufacturer, but it does do the same thing. It collects as many as 10,000 data points off of the aircraft.

And so from that where it would be important now, Anderson, is trying to figure out exactly what direction that missile came from, in case someone would try to say, it wasn't a missile at all, it must have been a bomb, it must have been something going on other than that.

So this is a critical part of the proof of the aircraft, in that it will tell you exactly what flight altitude the aircraft was at, so correlating the debris through the aircraft and where it came out the other side, we can determine the trajectory of the missile coming at the aircraft.

COOPER: It would also -- I mean, unless the electrical system on the plane was instantly disabled by the blast, it would also tell us how long pilots were able to try to -- or were wrestling with trying to control the plane.

SOUCIE: It could, however, where the missile hit, if you look, the tail is separated from the aircraft on the accident site. So you see where it's separated.

It's likely from the photographs I've seen, without being on site, it's likely the power to these were cut off because these are in the tail of the aircraft.

COOPER: Rick, we talked about the missile hitting the plane, but that's something of a misnomer. It actually just gets into the vicinity of the aircraft.

LIEUTENANT COLONEL RICK FRANCONA (RETIRED), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's a fragmentation warhead, and the warhead is designed to fragment into small pieces about the size of a quarter. And there are thousands of them, and it just creates a cloud that the aircraft will then fly through.

COOPER: So is the shrapnel actually the warhead, or is the warhead packed with shrapnel --

FRANCONA: No, no, what they do is they have the explosive charge, which only turns out to be about 50 pounds, I guess, but then there's a hundred pounds of metal that wrap around it, and it's scored on the inside into a diamond pattern.

It's like brake lines when you put --

COOPER: So that's what actually --

FRANCONA: That's right. So the explosive force turns the casing of the warhead into this thousands of pieces of shrapnel and they're uniform sized diamond shaped.

COOPER: So that actually just pierces the exterior of the aircraft?

FRANCONA: Right.

COOPER: It's so very likely that a number of people were killed instantly from shrapnel.

FRANCONA: Well, it would depend on where it penetrated the aircraft. It looks like from the diagram that the government released that it came up from the front of the aircraft, but it looks like the explosion probably was underneath the aircraft and came up under the tail.

SOUCIE: Which would have been from the fuel cells being penetrated by these pieces of metal.

COOPER: And that also would have sheared the aircraft into pieces.

SOUCIE: At least two segments is what -- COOPER: At least two?

SOUCIE: Typically, it's three, but in this case it looks like it was two.

COOPER: All right, David Soucie, thank you very much, Colonel Francona as well.