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Compromised Crime Scene; TransAsia Airways Crash; Punishment for Flight 17; Black Boxes Arrive in United Kingdom; First MH-17 Bodies Arrive in Netherlands

Aired July 23, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We know that we've got Malaysian teams on the ground in the last 24 hours or so. There are other international experts in Ukraine we understand still waiting to get to that crash site. So only now, six days after, is this beginning to ramp up to anything that is approaching international best practice and we're still a long way from it. And when these investigators do get there, they are going to find a crash site that is significantly altered from what it was. We've seen significant changes. Large pieces picked up, moved, cut open, all of that sort of thing.

And part of the complication, of course, in terms of getting those investigators in there, has been the fact that this is an ongoing war zone. And now today we have more news of that because the pro-Russian rebels that control this territory have confirmed, as has the Ukrainian government, that they've shot down two Ukrainian fighter jets. SU-25 fighter jets, ground attack aircraft, flying only a short distance from the site of the MH17 wreckage, and shoulder mounted surface to air missiles were used to ground these -- were used to blast these particular aircraft from the sky. It's significant because what it shows is that despite all the anger, international pressure and so forth towards these pro-Russian militants, they are still prepared to launch surface to air attacks against aircraft flying through this air space.

Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Perhaps the most tragic part about all of this, you know, some of the bodies are being flown to the Netherlands today. They're about to land in about a half hour. But there are still bodies at that crash site, human remains. It's just a terrible situation.

BLACK: Well, it's why that investigation is so important. It's why the security of that site is so important, because it is still very likely across this wide area that there are bodies, remains still there that are yet to be discovered. And that really has been, I think, the focus of so much international concern understandably over the last week or so.

We've seen a considerable effort by people at the site to clear up as much of those remains as possible. And they have made some progress, but it has been very late. And it's no doubt it has not been to the best possible international standard that you would expect with a disaster such as this, Carol. COSTELLO: All right, Phil Black reporting live for us from eastern

Ukraine.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, investigations are launched as the fight for justice for the families of Flight 17 begins, but will anyone be punished? Will anyone be charged with a crime? We'll talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

COSTELLO: All right, we want to go back to that breaking news. Forty- five people feared dead after a TransAsia Airways passenger plane crashes off the western coast of Taiwan. Andy Lee is live on the phone from Taipei.

Andy, what more can you tell us?

ANDY LEE, REPORTER (via telephone): Right. And, Carol, this plane crash happened today here in Taiwan with the typhoon just leaving Taiwan, the island of Taiwan. So this TransAsia Airways plane left Goshon (ph) Airport heading for this offshore island and Penkumakin (ph) Airport. The tower had asked the plane to fly again. However, during this contact, the plane lost contact and then local residents reported seeing fireballs.

Now, what I can tell you, Carol, is that we have four crew members on a plane and 54 passengers on the plane. Now, 11 are in the hospital, serious burns, critically injured, one is confirmed dead and 46 others are missing.

COSTELLO: Why were they flying in such bad weather?

LEE: That is a very good question, Carol. Typhoon has left Taiwan, so Goshon Airport has cleared this TransAsia flight, which has already been delayed due to typhoon to fly, OK? And now when it reached the offshore island, the visibility was only two meters, heavy rain and strong wind in the offshore island airport. So it's a very bad condition for the plane to attempt to land.

The tower has advised the plane to try and land again. Plane did not respond. Fireball. That's what the residents saw. And now here we are with 46 missing. They are in the burning debris. So they could be dead by now. We don't know for sure, but we could only hope for the best, Carol.

COSTELLO: Andy Lee, I'll let you go so you can gather more information. Thanks so much.

In just about a half an hour, the first set of bodies recovered from Flight 17 will take an important step toward returning to their families, arriving here in Eindhoven, Netherlands, before heading for DNA testing. And as Dutch prosecutors begin a criminal investigation, many are asking one critical question, will anyone ever be brought to justice? Joining me now, Richard Barrett, former counterterrorism director for

Britain's MI6 agency, and Arthur Rosenberg, CNN aviation analyst and aviation attorney.

Welcome to you both.

RICHARD BARRETT, FMR. COUNTER-TERRORISM DIRECTOR, MI6: Good morning, Carol.

ARTHUR ROSENBERG, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Good morning.

Richard, you write on cnn.com that while there's no internationally agreed definition of terrorism, there is an agreement on what constitutes acts of terrorism. Could that apply to Flight 17?

BARRETT: Well, that's absolutely right. Yes, if the downing of a civilian aircraft in flight is intentional, done intentionally, then it's a crime under international law and it's considered an act of terrorism. So I guess the key word there is intentional because, of course, the stories that one's hearing is that if it were the rebels, and perhaps they mistook it for a Ukrainian military transport plane and brought it down for that reason. So there's some sort of wiggle room there.

COSTELLO: OK. So, Arthur, if it's deemed intentional, could this mirror the Lockerbie bombing, where after years of negotiations, Libya handed over the suspects to the United Nations. One was found guilty. And then Libya, 15 years after the incident, agreed to pay $2.7 billion to the families?

ROSENBERG: Yes, absolutely. And I would still go so far as to say that terrorism, even if it wasn't intentional, meaning we thought it was a military plain, but we hit a civilian plane, while that label is significant, I don't think it's the bottom line. Whether it's intentional or not, this was an act of terrorism. A group of people operating inside the boundary of a sovereign state to destabilize a government, to wreak havoc, they're killing people. This is terrorism pure and simple. This is going to end up, once the proof is in proper form, in the international criminal court in The Hague or the international justice court, which is part of the United Nations.

There will be a trial. It might take some time. The trigger people is what I believe will be put on trial, just like in Pan Am Lockerbie. We had the mastermind with the Sony Walkman, with the bomb. He ultimately went to prison. People will be held to account from a criminal standpoint, and terrorism will also segue us into civil remedies, which I'm glad to talk about if you'd like.

COSTELLO: Well, let's pause on that because, Richard, I have another question for you, because this is going to be -- it's going to be difficult to determine it's an act of terrorism, as you said. So how would prosecutors even identify those responsible?

BARRETT: Well, that is one issue, of course. And then the other issue is, what is terrorism, because there's no internationally agreed convention, if you like, that covers the definition of terrorism. So although we'd all agree that al Qaeda perhaps on one end was terrorists, when you've got a small insurgent group like this, I think there's a lot of disagreement. And, of course, any referral to the international court would probably have to have the agreement of the Security Council. And we can't imagine that all members of the Security Council would agree to refer this issue to the international court.

So it's really very, very difficult when you're dealing with these issues. And I think the one lesson that comes out of it is that if untrained, ill disciplined, and irregular forces get hold of really sophisticated weapons, then there's no knowing what the consequences can be.

COSTELLO: And, so, Arthur, let's dig into the civil liabilities aspects of this case. Some experts say total liabilities of this crash could reach $1 billion. Aside from payments to families, what would those payments cover and do you agree that it could go higher?

ROSENBERG: Yes. Well, I mean, in terms of the lawsuits, just to work on the terrorism theme, in the United States, we have a federal statutory scheme which does define the word terrorism, which I think ultimately this will come under. So for Americans we have the Anti- Terrorist Act, for aliens we have the Alien Tort Claims Act, there's a Foreign Sovereign Immunity Act. There's a whole panoply of statutes in place which are intended to hit terrorism, state-sponsored terrorism groups, individuals, where it hurts, which is in the pocketbook.

And once establishing that, that allows us to attach, to put liens on assets, to use assets to satisfy judgments, and that -- and then there's a segue in the case against Malaysia Airlines, which is probably the path of least resistance for these families for compensation, full and fair compensation, which I believe is an excellent case based on where they were flying and the conditions they were flying.

COSTELLO: Well, I think the only safe thing to say is that justice will be a long time in coming for these poor families. Richard Barrett, Arthur Rosenberg, thanks so much.

ROSENBERG: Right.

COSTELLO: Coming up at the top of the hour, we'll bring you the arrival of Flight 17 victims to the Netherlands live. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: The black boxes from Flight 17 now in the hands of the officials in the United Kingdom. Investigators trying to learn as much as possible about how the plane was brought down and who may have been behind it.

CNN's Max Foster joins us from London with more on that.

Hi, Max.

MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. It's interesting, you know, because a lot of people suggesting yesterday that the blacks boxes aren't that important if they can prove that there was a missile attack on this plane because actually the black boxes just really give you information about what happened on board, and the best evidence will be on the ground about whether or not a missile attacked the plane, but it's interesting because the black boxes are becoming more and more important.

UK security sources have told me today, Carol, that all the evidence does point to the same conclusion that it was shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile launched by separatists operating in southern eastern Ukraine, but also crucially there's also evidence that the site was tampered with. So the first thing they're going to be looking at with these boxes is, were the boxes tampered with?

Love to go straight into the boxes to try to get the information out of it. Actually at this point the most crucial bit of evidence might be just to look at it whether to see whether the box has been opened in some way, whether the seals have gone in any way. So it's become an intelligence-led operation at this point.

COSTELLO: How long do you -- how long do you think it will take for information to go out to the public?

FOSTER: Well, what they're saying is to analyze the box, and now that you're looking at whether or not it's been manipulated as well, you're talking several weeks at least before we get the information from here in the UK which will then go on to the authorities in Holland who will then hand any relevant information over to the police.

COSTELLO: Max Foster reporting live for us this morning. Thank you.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right. A bit of breaking news to pass along. You see dignitaries in the Netherlands. They're preparing for this national day of mourning. We understand that at least one of these giant cargo planes have landed at Eindhoven Air Base. And of course on board the coffins of those lost in Flight 17.

Yesterday those bodies were loaded on board these huge cargo plane. And a solemn ceremony took place at the train station in eastern Ukraine and then of course the bodies were flown home to the Netherlands.

Let's listen a bit.

All right. I thought we were going to hear a little something from a Dutch announcer, but we are not. But as you can see the dignitaries are preparing for the ceremony, the king and queen of the Netherlands will be there, and of course the prime minister. Members of the military. It will be a very somber occasion. No speeches as far as I know. Just somber music and moments of silence.

Saima Mohsin is standing by at the air base with more for us.

Saima, tell us more.

MOHSIN: Yes, Carol, as well as the dignitaries, the king and queen and the prime minister, that you mentioned, of course the family members will also be present here. They have been invited, 193 victims of MH-17 were of course Dutch. We won't be able to see them out of respect for their privacy.

A short while ago, Carol, we actually saw one of those military planes landing here on the tarmac at Eindhoven Airport. On board, we understand, two military planes that took off from Kharkiv in the Ukraine, were 40 bodies of the Flight MH-17 passengers.

COSTELLO: And of course one of the most tragic aspects of this --

(CROSSTALK)

MOHSIN: Carol, what we're being told is that as they --

COSTELLO: Go on, Saima.

MOHSIN: Go ahead, Carol.

COSTELLO: I was just going to say, one of the tragic aspects of all of this --

(CROSSTALK)

MOHSIN: What we're being told is, Carol, is that of course -- they will land to the sound of a trumpet call. That will be just around in the next 10 to 15 minutes, at the top of the hour. 1600 local, 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time, Carol, and at that time, if you can just imagine, the entire country is going to come to a standstill, not just in Amsterdam, not just in Eindhoven, but throughout Holland, planes, trains will stop on tracks, buses will stop on the roads, everyone in government institutions will pause for a moment and hold a moment of silence out of respect for the passengers being brought back home finally.

Of course, we don't know how many of those on board are actually Dutch. There are people from right across the world that were on board Flight MH-17. Several of them from many countries around the world. I understand that now both planes have landed behind me. Let me step aside so we can make way for them -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Saima Mohsin, thank you so much. I apologize for interrupting you there. There is a little bit of a delay from the United States into the Netherlands, but I was just going to say that the tragic aspect of this is those bodies on board those planes, we don't know whose bodies they are, because from here, they will be taken to a laboratory for DNA testing. So for the family members at this ceremony, you just can't imagine their pain this morning.

We're going to have much more for you live from the Netherlands after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

Families in limbo. A nation in mourning. This is the image of heartbreak in the Netherlands where bittersweet homecoming is unfolding right now.

The first bodies from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 arriving back home on Dutch soil. The families of those victims will welcome their return as well as government official and even Dutch royals. Most of the 298 people killed were from the Netherlands where the flight began its doomed journey.

We have CNN correspondents covering every angle of this heartbreaking tribute. The Netherlands pauses for a day of mourning and the world pays tribute.