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Dr. Drew
Cops: 3-Way Sex Hookup Turned Deadly
Aired July 23, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the Craigslist killings. Inside the home of this man -- police call it a hellish
environment, where he may have kept a pregnant woman captive before strangling her.
Plus, the sex spreadsheet. A husband tracks his wife`s yeses and nos, and she posts it online. Whose side are you on?
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome. My co-host is Sam Schacher.
And coming up: a mom charged with killing her 4-year-old. Police say she may have been jealous of her own daughter.
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes. And details are beyond upsetting, Dr. Drew. We`ll hear from the father, tonight.
PINSKY: Stuffed in the trunk. Just a tragedy.
But first, a pregnant teen and her boyfriend turn to Craigslist -- always smart -- for a sex hookup. The man they met suspected of their
gruesome murders, he`s dead as well. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That girl, 8 months pregnant, 18 years old, ends up dead. Her boyfriend, dead as well.
PINSKY: Did this man murder a pregnant woman, behead her boyfriend, and then kill himself? Police say they met on Craigslist for sex.
The father of my child and I are sort of involved in this weird, open relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-five-year-old Charles Oppenneer was the first to be found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t know what trauma was caused, because after he was murdered, his head was removed by the suspect.
PINSKY: Police say Brooke Slocum was strangled, her unborn child obviously dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to grieve, and I really do grieve for the father of this girl.
GREG SLOCUM: I never gave up, until the police came to my daughter and told me the bad news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But these two individuals went seeking on Craigslist danger and something strange.
PINSKY: And something strange. They believed the boyfriend probably had head trauma, but obviously, they can`t tell for sure until they find
his head!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And the head is still missing. We will talk about that in just a second.
Joining us, Evy Poumpouras.
Welcome back, Evy. It`s good to have you again. Former special agent, Secret Service.
Michelle Fields, correspondent for PJ Media, Vanessa Barnett, social commentator, host of HipHollywood.com.
And on the phone, I`ve got Randolph Beasley. He`s a forensic crime scene investigator.
Randolph, there`s no head, there`s a body that does not have any signs of trauma. Help me understand how there`s no cause of death.
Decapitation is the cause of death. What do they mean, they think it`s head trauma?
RANDOLPH BEASLEY, FORENSIC EXPERT (via telephone): Actually, Dr. Drew, it`s just not determined yet. It`s not uncommon for a situation like
this where you do not have all the pieces, literally, of the crime, and if it`s -- the head is missing, it`s undetermined.
PINSKY: Well, Randolph, they were speculating head trauma, though. And my question was -- all right, well, cause of death is at least
decapitation. Why would they assume head trauma? Is that sort of a common thing that criminals do when they bash someone`s head in, they take the
head off?
BEASLEY: No, usually, my experience, no head would be no dental records, which would mean no quick identification of a body, if they were
getting rid of the body.
PINSKY: I see.
SCHACHER: Wow.
BEASLEY: That`s what that usually comes down to.
PINSKY: So this was a practical issue, practical, so to speak, for a criminal to try to slow the process down. This is before, obviously, he
killed himself.
Thank you, thank you, sir. I appreciate those thoughts.
Evy, how do you put this thing together?
EVY POUMPOURAS, SECURITY EXPERT: Well, let me say this regarding the no head, no body incident. There`s also the aspect of -- there are many
incidents where we`ve had killers decapitate their victims and keep their heads as trophies.
PINSKY: Oh, Evy, you had to go to the worst-case scenario always. That`s disgusting!
POUMPOURAS: I`m just relaying -- I`m just relaying though the actual factual accounts that do exist with certain serial killers. We have
Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy who did decapitate their victims and keep them for trophies, in addition of the possibility for it being maybe possibly
for dental records.
PINSKY: How about the fact that these two, Michelle, went out looking for somebody online. And they ended up dead, but who do you blame
for this.
MICHELLE FIELDS, PJ MEDIA: I don`t like blaming people, but come on, how stupid can you be? Why are you looking to have sex with people off of
Craigslist? If you are putting up an ad for you to find someone to have sex with you and your 8 months pregnant girlfriend, do you think it`s going
to be some nice, normal person?
No, it`s going to be a creepy person who chops off your head! Those are the people who are looking for sex with you and your pregnant
girlfriend!
SCHACHER: Wow!
PINSKY: Samantha?
SCHACHER: Yes, I don`t think there are any normal person who go on to these personals. In my opinion, it`s become a breeding ground of
pedophilia and prostitution. And I don`t want to blame these victims here, because I do think they must have been in a very desperate situation, at
least she must have been, to pimp herself out when she`s 8 months pregnant. That`s really sad to me.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: But no one sounds like they`re actually really sad about this. Michelle just called the victims stupid,
and I`m disgusted that we are missing the point.
FIELDS: The decisions they made were stupid.
BARNETT: Stupid decisions, but you don`t deserve to die. I can run around naked all day long in the fields, but no one gets the right to kill
me. That`s ridiculous that you would call them stupid. They`re victims.
FIELDS: Of course!
BARNETT: Leave it as such. We need to be focused on the criminal here. He is deranged. He beheaded someone.
FIELDS: But we also have to point out their stupidity --
BARNETT: We don`t have to. You have to --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hold on!
We`re talking over each other and I can`t hear you. I`m going to get Evy to solve this for us.
What do you want to say, Evy?
POUMPOURAS: If I can just step in one for moment, I understand both perspectives, but there is a study within criminology where they do look at
the victims` behavior and it`s actually called victimology. What did the victim do to in some way bring or provoke the offender?
PINSKY: To put themselves in that position.
POUMPOURAS: What did they do? What was in their behavior?
PINSKY: Right, we can learn something from that.
Let me -- can you guys move ahead to Jason Ellis` comments. Do we have that up there?
We did an after show in and in that after show, last night, we had discussions about this particular crime, and Jason Ellis shared a theory
about the motive behind the murder and, Vanessa, I`ll get your reaction to it.
Play that, please.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JASON ELLIS: It`s I want money for drugs (ph) is what it is. You get the guy with some money (ph) and then he pays and then you two go and
do stuff with the money.
I mean, you can Google it, but I don`t believe there`s a guy that has an addiction to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) people have sex with his pregnant wife.
I believe it`s -- we`re pregnant and we need more money to get high.
PINSKY: What about the murder, then? What about that?
ELLIS: It`s who`s dumb enough, I`m a murderer, I`m looking to take somebody out. Let`s go to Craigslist, because there`s desperate people on
there.
PINSKY: All disturbed brains coming up with disturbed stories.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Vanessa, what do you say?
He`s saying it`s about drug addiction and desperation.
BARNETT: I completely disagree. Look, we know that this victim went to Craigslist, we know that she was in an open relationship with a very
open sexual lifestyle, but this was a child. She was 18 years old. This is not an adult who was making adult decisions.
I`m not saying this decision was her smartest move, but I`m not going to focus on the fact that she made a bad choice, because she doesn`t
deserve to die because of it. This girl was --
PINSKY: It`s about murder.
BARNETT: This girl was troubled with the divorce of her parents. This girl was going through a lot. And we`re bashing her. We need to be
mad at this killer.
SCHACHER: How do you prevent this from happening to other people, though, Vanessa?
BARNETT: We don`t know all the psychopaths in the world.
SCHACHER: Money was exchange.
BARNETT: But we know people that sit in their homes and don`t do anything but still die because of burglar walking and we can`t predict the
minds of crazy people by bashing the victims.
PINSKY: Thank you, Vanessa.
Michelle, I`ve got to get out of this in just a second.
But let me ask you this, the father -- her father felt that the perpetrator, the reason she was in the victim position was that the
boyfriend. She was doing anything to hold on to him, to retain what she thought was his love. And isn`t that really what went wrong here? This
woman was really subjugating --
FIELDS: Well, I don`t know --
PINSKY: Go ahead.
FIELDS: They said, what I read was that she had a history of going online to find men. So, I don`t know if it was just this one incident. It
sounds like she had a problem, where she liked to go online to find love.
PINSKY: Maybe.
FIELDS: And the reason why I point this out is because we need to show people that this is stupid and they should stop doing it.
PINSKY: Evy, last word.
POUMPOURAS: I just want to ask Michelle something.
Michelle, you said this girl doesn`t deserve to die. But can I ask you this? Does anybody really deserve to die in any situation, regardless
of what the situation is?
FIELDS: Of course not, of course not. But we should learn from the situation.
PINSKY: Agreed.
Behavior bureau is here next.
And later, the sex spreadsheet. A husband tracks his attempts at sexual encounters with his wife. Including the time she said, no, and what
her excuses were. On a spreadsheet! And she posts it on social media. Fantastic!
Vanessa seems to be laughing. Maybe Vanessa is running through the fields naked again. Still trying to get that out of my minds.
We`ll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Brooke Slocum, eight months pregnant when police discovered her body in the trunk of a car.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why is a girl who is eight months pregnant looking for a threesome on Craigslist?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not the first time that she`s been soliciting sex online.
PINSKY: Is it true your daughter did have a history of meeting people online?
SLOCUM: Yes, she did. She has met men online, looking for love. But all she really found was that it made her feel cheap, dirty, and used.
And love is not manipulation. Love is unconditional. And she realized that. And she didn`t want to do it anymore.
But she also wants to stay with the man who`s the father of her child, and she would do whatever it took to do that, even if it meant
sacrificing herself in this sort of manner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and the behavior bureau. Evy Poumpouras, Erica America, psychotherapist and Z100 Radio personality, Leeann Tweeden,
social commentator, host of "Tomboy`s Podcast" on Blog Talk Radio.
Brooke Slocum`s father believes she was manipulated by her boyfriend to seek out this sex on Craigslist. Police say the man the couple met
decapitated this boyfriend, then strangled her. Later, the suspect committed suicide.
Leeann, what are your thoughts on this one?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, Dr. Drew. Anytime that you`re looking for sex online -- I mean, there`s obviously
something wrong. Why would you go for that? When you were talking to the father, he knew that his 18-year-old daughter, who was eight months
pregnant with her boyfriend, knew that she was soliciting sex online through Craigslist.
I mean, right there, doesn`t that tell you something`s office? Something`s completely dysfunctional within this girl. And if she kept
doing it, looking for love, because she said, oh, her parents got divorced and she had a hard childhood, she was bullied.
I was bullied. My parents divorced when they were 8. I`m not looking for sex on Craigslist. What do you think is going to happen?
I mean, I don`t want to say anything. They`re both dead and that`s sad and the baby is dead, let`s not forget about the third casualty in
this.
PINSKY: Right. There`s a third casualty.
TWEEDEN: But it`s like, what are they thinking? When nothing good is coming out of that.
PINSKY: That`s right.
Evy, from a victimology standpoint, can we understand that 18-year- old`s behavior?
POUMPOURAS: I mean, you see this pattern of behavior. I do agree with Leeann, because there`s a pattern of behavior where she`s been doing
this previous to the boyfriend, so I don`t necessarily agree with the father, although I grieve for him. But this is something in her pattern of
behavior. She`s looking for attention --
PINSKY: And in no way am I --
POUMPOURAS: -- all the wrong things.
PINSKY: And in no way am I blaming bullying. Bullying didn`t help things, but that is in no way the cause of this thing.
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO: Right, right.
PINSKY: Erica, do you want to comment on that?
AMERICA: Sure. Of course, we want to see, what can we learn from this situation? It was high-risk behavior to be involved in. And we want
to tell people, you have to be careful in meeting anyone involved, whether there`s money involved, money for sex, or on a dating Web site. You have
to be very careful.
But then, at the same time, it`s the randomness --
PINSKY: Erica, I have to stop you. If you`re exchanging money for sex with somebody you met online, there`s a problem --
SCHACHER: A serious problem.
AMERICA: No, no, there`s a problem --
PINSKY: More than just be careful. That`s not OK.
AMERICA: But that`s an entirely different topic. That`s wondering why are prostitutes prostitutes. I mean, that`s completely different.
PINSKY: Right, right.
AMERICA: The fact of the matter is, she shouldn`t be doing it, but she got linked up with somebody who had an obsessive fetish, that was
obviously maybe a personality disorder as well. And he killed them.
PINSKY: Or desperation, or there was drugs and they needed money, that`s what Jason Ellis was saying.
TWEEDEN: Or looking for money for rent. It sounded like they were looking for a new place to live and they`re having those problems.
PINSKY: I asked his father why his daughter was attracted to bad relationships, here`s what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SLOCUM: It started with bullying in school, being judged, being picked on, and you know, it causes such self-esteem problem, especially in
young girls, when they don`t feel pretty or don`t feel loved. And they want the kind of love that a father can`t give them. And they look
elsewhere for it. When they`re neglected and picked on.
And right there is the ultimate start of why these girls get on the Internet, searching for other things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I don`t know about bullying --
TWEEDEN: I don`t believe that.
PINSKY: To me, there`s something that set up the bullying, Sam.
SCHACHER: Right. Well, not only that, Dr. Drew, she is 18. This boyfriend was in his late 20s, and he is actually the one who was arranging
these arrangements through Craigslist and sitting by and just watching, and then collecting money.
So he was, essentially, also acting like her pimp. And I think that`s where she was seeking the wrong relationship. Not necessarily on
Craigslist, but online, meaning Facebook. That`s where she met the boyfriend.
So I think people are getting confused between like her Facebook contacts and then the Craigslist, which I think was completely done by the
boyfriend.
PINSKY: Right. Now, following the suicide of the suspect, the police recovered restraints, knives, dozens of firearms, ammunition in his
home. He also reportedly held this 18-year-old girl captive before killing her, and take a look at this photo from his Facebook page. He is holding a
baby there, of course, there`s a handgun there. We`re zeroing in on it. But if you look off to the right, there was a handgun.
Evy, last thoughts on this case?
POUMPOURAS: This is another situation where we`re dealing with weapons. Again, how did the guns get into the hands of individuals who are
not mentally and emotionally stable? This is a problem you`ve got. I mean, look at the irony of this photo. You`ve got a baby on one side and a
weapon on the other. What does this tell you?
PINSKY: It tells me this guy is ruptured in many ways. This is not a good situation. And, again, I wonder what we`re going to find out about
this guy. We`ve got to go.
Next up, a terrible story next. A child`s head bashed in, the body stuffed into a garbage bag and found in the trunk of a car. Police say her
own mother perpetrated this.
And later, is someone keeping score in the bedroom? One woman`s husband, in fact, was. There is his spreadsheet. She put it on Reddit.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This young girl`s life is over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who would kill their baby? Who would kill their baby?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four-year-old Victoria Wyatt`s shoes and toys sit in a room, never to be used again. The child`s mother, Stacy Parsons,
was arrested when she told police she had killed Victoria at one location, before bringing the body back to the family home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something told me to open the trunk, and there she was. In a little plastic bag, you know, with dirt. And I saw her
little leg hanging out of that bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they pulled the child`s body from the trunk and attempted CPR, water came out, indicating to them, she may have
been drowned. The child`s father says the night before, he told Parsons he wanted a divorce.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Told me, if I`d leave her, that she would kill the baby. I never for a minute thought she would actually do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Michelle, Vanessa.
And joining us for the first time, DR. DREW ON CALL, is Leila Ali, TV host, fitness andd wellness expert, and world champion boxer.
And, Leila, I brought you to separate Michelle and Vanessa should they begin to get into it again. I`ll be looking to you for a little bit
of refereeing.
LEILA ALI, TV HOST: OK, no problem.
PINSKY: Father of that 4-year-old girl says the girl`s mother killed the child. He reportedly said, out of jealousy. The county sheriff
confirmed to us that the young mother is in jail tonight. No other children in the home, thank God.
And, Vanessa, you cautioned to us reserve judgment on the hot car death. What do you say about this one?
BARNETT: This situation, for me, is just a little bit different --
PINSKY: A little bit?
BARNETT: Yes, well, she confessed. There`s no issue about whether or not she did this.
Now, we`re talking about was there a way to prevent it. I know several times she was verbally abusive to this daughter, 24/7, that she
disliked the child, that she was angry all the time. And I`m just wondering as a parent, if I saw another person, whether it was another
parent or not, being that way to my child, those are red flags. I stop it right there. There`s no way that anyone is going to treat my child like
crap for a minute, let alone for her entire life.
PINSKY: And the father, Leila, the father gave me creeps there in that video we saw. I don`t want to be too harsh on him, because we don`t
know the context of that video, but you`ve got to wonder what his role was in this.
ALI: You know, I was definitely disturbed by this story. And I did notice his demeanor. You know, I was surprised that he would be able to
stand there and have that composure, the same morning that he found out that his wife killed his daughter.
PINSKY: Right.
ALI: And another thing that disturbed me about the story is that he said, that she had said before, that she would kill her daughter instead of
-- and go to jail for the rest of his life instead of be with him. But now he`s saying now, he said if he would leave her, she was going to kill the
daughter.
So, I`m a little confused. I think there`s more to this story. And I wouldn`t be surprised. They have a dysfunctional relationship for sure.
PINSKY: I agree. I think there`s more to the story.
Samantha?
SCHACHER: Yes, if your husband or wife threatens to kill your child, that is your red flag to call the police --
PINSKY: Oh, by the way --
SCHACHER: -- and get the hell out of there. Yes.
PINSKY: By the way, what worse could the mom say than, I`m going to kill the kid?
SCHACHER: It`s unbelievable to me. This definitely could have been prevented it, in my book. It`s crazy!
PINSKY: Now, Michelle, I`m interested to say, who you say is the stupid -- you like to use the word "stupid" a lot. So, is there a stupid
person in this one?
FIELDS: No, I would say there is just an evil person. And that is the mother. And, you know, I get the impression that maybe she never
actually wanted a child. Maybe this was an opportunity for her to trap this guy and she never actually wanted or liked the child. And now that
the husband was going to leave her, that she wanted to just get rid of the child and also get payback to her husband for leaving her.
PINSKY: Vanessa?
FIELDS: But who knows, the point is the woman is evil.
PINSKY: Vanessa?
BARNETT: But is she just evil? Dr. Drew, you`re all about mental health. Do we need to look at her mental health?
PINSKY: Yes.
BARNETT: She was adopted, had a horrible relationship with her birth mother. We don`t know if something there -- the adoptive mother says that
there was something really bad happening in that household when she was with her biological mother. Is there something there we should be looking
at?
PINSKY: But sometimes environment -- you see, I think we all use -- we should mince our words. In other words, evil or a psychopathy, or
sociopathy, those are the same thing in my head, different words described in the same thing. And the way you get to evil, sometimes, you can be born
that way or sometimes you got horrible environmental stressors that make you that way.
Either way, I agree with Michelle, there`s some evil stuff, but I also sniff drug -- it smells of drug addiction, the kind of detached
quality of this, the confusional state that she seemed the to be in when she did this -- all of a sudden, too, by the way. It wasn`t like she was
in a postpartum psychosis -- and by the way, the child was 4 years old.
FIELDS: But there are people who do drugs that don`t kill their kids.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Oh, I`m not saying it`s the cause, I`m saying I think that`s part of the mix here.
SCHACHER: But it wasn`t all of a sudden, Dr. Drew. It was the day after he said, we`re going to get into a divorce.
PINSKY: But what I`m saying is --
SCHACHER: It`s pure vengeance.
PINSKY: I agree with you. I don`t disagree with any of this. We all are mincing our words again.
But I`m saying that it wasn`t like she was in a confusional state the day before, but when the father opened the trunk and confronted the mom,
she was walking around in a confused state. She was out of it. What was that all about?
The mom`s attorney told us he got the case yesterday, has not met this woman yet, but sent us a statement that read in part, quote, "In this
world of social media and instant communications, public opinion can affect a person`s basic right to a fair trial. I ask that the tragedy not be
compounded by pre-judging this woman."
Michelle? Michelle, give her a chance to not pre-judge.
FIELDS: We absolutely can pre-judge. She killed her child!
SCHACHER: Thank you!
FIELDS: We absolutely should judge this woman.
PINSKY: Yes, I agree. We don`t need to know more than that.
BARNETT: But don`t we need to do more research? Like, yes, she`s guilty!
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: I see that. We all know that. She said that. We get that point. But let`s take it further. You just said in the last block that we
need to understand how we can prevent these things. Where do we go from here?
PINSKY: Vanessa, I`m all about it.
But also, Michelle, there`s different kinds of murder, right? You have to understand they`re going to find out a what kind it was,
premeditated, was it extenuating circumstances, that exists in the law, Michelle, I`m sorry. They don`t just have "evil murderer," they don`t have
that category.
FIELDS: If you have to decide if this woman is awful or not, I think it`s safe to judge her and agree she`s an awful person.
PINSKY: I agree. Leila, last words?
ALI: I definitely think that both of these parents need to be judged, because there`s a child here who`s dead. And I think that anybody,
when someone shows you who they are, you need to believe it. So when she first started telling her husband she would kill that child, he should have
taken that baby and run.
PINSKY: Here we go.
Next, we`re going to hear more from the murdered girl`s father.
And later, the sex spreadsheet that has gone viral. We will show what one husband mailed to his wife and then she put it up on social media.
Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Took my kid. That`s the only daughter I have.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators haven`t released an exact cause of death. However, the family says when Parsons returned without Victoria,
they knew something wasn`t right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of evil does that? I hope she gets the death penalty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Luckily, the police got her before I did, trust me.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, DR. DREW ON CALL HOST: Back with Sam and the behavior bureau, Evy, Erica, Leeann. A 25-year-old mother accused of killing her 4-
year-old daughter. Police are not speculating yet on the motive. But the child`s father says the mom was jealous of the little girl. I love the
grandfather, whom we just saw. Evy, your thoughts?
EVY POUMPOURAS: Yeah, I think there are a lot of things going on here. I really actually want to sit down and interview the father. I think the
dynamics of the whole family is completely off.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Did you get the weird feeling about the father that I got?
POUMPOURAS: Yes.
PINSKY: That was very, very strange, you know, sort of attitude to adopt when your 4-year-old daughter was just murdered by your spouse.
POUMPOURAS: And you know what else he did, Dr. Drew? When he refers to -- when he refers to Victoria, he says -- when he refers about his wife, he
says, she dislikes, the child, the child? You mean, Victoria, right, because you would refer to your own child by its name. Then he said, to be
honest with you, I think she`s jealous of that little girl. Who`s that little girl? That`s your daughter. So, there`s a disconnect between and the
child as well.
LEEANN TWEEDEN: Are we even sure that it`s his daughter?
PINSKY: Interesting.
SCHACHER: I mean, maybe that could be another dynamic in that relationship that we don`t know. I mean, it just seems to me when I`m looking at him,
he`s so much older than her. Don`t you guys find that sort of.
PINSKY: Yeah.
TWEEDEN: I don`t know, it`s just sort of a strange dynamic. But you know, sometimes, it`s like when you know that people probably have some sort of
mental illness, when people say things, you have to believe them. And I`ve always been that person, it`s like, if somebody says something, you don`t
say things joking, like, oh, I`m going to kill her if you leave me. Why would you not believe that? I mean, you know, people are having mental
health problems, she can`t even take care of herself and she`s procreating and having a baby. Bad things are going to happen. We see it time and time
and time again, night after night. I mean, how do you think we do this show, Dr. Drew? It`s -- people like this, that are emotionally disturbed,
that, you know, she -- you know, he was going to leave her and she killed her baby!
PINSKY: And we hear about it because we`re all connected through social media.
TWEEDEN: Right!
PINSKY: Erica.
ERICA AMERICA: Yeah, well, I kind of understand why, not to defend her, but I feel like that this could possibly be -- and Dr. Drew, don`t jump down my
throat -- but a possible extended postpartum depression mixed with her childhood, the adoption, I think that was an extreme form of abandonment
for her. So, when the father said, I`m going to divorce you, she went into this breaking point mode, where that`s why she did what she did.
(CROSSTALK)
AMERICA: It doesn`t make it right or not, but whether.
PINSKY: Erica, slow down. What kind of -- what are you describing of a personality style that is overwhelmed by abandonment and does have an
overwhelming rage when they are faced with abandonment. There`s a name for that.
AMERICA: Borderline.
PINSKY: That`s right, borderlines have that quality. But I`m not saying -- we are not saying borderlines murder people. I`m not saying that. But,
Erica, was describing a constellation of features that we associate with the borderline personality disorder. Sam.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, DR. DREW ON CALL CO-HOST: I agree with -- I agree with you, Erica. I think that makes a lot of sense in all of this. I don`t think
that the husband is somehow complicit in all of this. I think maybe there`s a lack of affect there. Maybe he`s on drugs that we don`t know about and I
think.
PINSKY: That would put the whole thing into sort of outer space. And when you put stimulants in and things like this, violence occurs. Listen, the
father has not been accused of anything. Let`s be clear about this.
TWEEDEN: But he was so detached.
PINSKY: I`m with you, guys, but let`s look at what he describe what he found, when he first found the girl -- the poor girl`s body. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, God, it was awful. Foaming out of her mouth, her head was bashed in. To be honest with you, I think she`s been jealous of
the little girl ever since she was born.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Samantha, finish up.
SCHACHER: Yeah. I just want to finish up. Again, I think that this wife was trying to seek vengeance on this father because of the fact that she felt
that, A, he was leaving her, because of the abandonment, that Erica just mentioned, and also, maybe she did have jealousy of her daughter, because
he had an unconditional love for their daughter and then not her.
PINSKY: Although, Evy, is saying the language he used to describe the girl frightened her, or at least gave you pause, would you say, Evy?
POUMPOURAS: Yes, it did but I do agree with, Sam, to one extent. I see this as a revenge death, almost a way we have revenge suicides, the way somebody
tries to get back at somebody else by taking a life.
TWEEDEN: I do like the grandfather, though, lucky that the cop got to her before he did.
PINSKY: Right, that`s the hero in this whole story, that poor man.
AMERICA: It`s the family system. So, he might have had a part as well.
PINSKY: Next, what is worst? Making a sex spreadsheet or then putting it online. We will get into that controversy after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Husband does not think he and his wife are having enough sex. So, he e-mails her a spreadsheet. He`s kept tabs outling the number of
times he`s tried to have sex with his wife, how many times she`s said yes, he even has her excuses outlined in this e-mail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m exhausted. I feel sweaty and gross. I`m watching a show.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 1She gets the e-mail and then posts the e-mail on her Reddit account.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m too drunk. I just came back from the gym. You`re too drunk. I`m trying to watch the movie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty eight tries, they had sex three times. This is over a month and a half. So, the average, about, a little bit of sex every
16 days.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam. This is the story you are tweeting about most tonight. My control room, the staff, the studio, all have been talking,
tweeting, sharing this on social media. Should your sex life be reduced to a spreadsheet? Leann, Laila, back with us. Joining us, Mike Catherwood, of
course my co-host from LoveLine. This husband was so frustrated about the lack of sex in his marriage that he put up a spreadsheet. Here it is. He
kept track of every time he approached his wife, if he was successful, and if he wasn`t, if she pushed him away, repelled him, what the excuse was. He
then e-mailed the spreadsheet to his wife and she posted it on the social networking site, Reddit, and it has had more than a million views. So,
buddy, what`s worse, making this spreadsheet or posting it online? Mike.
MIKE CATHERWOOD: I know this is going to surprise you, I actually think making the spreadsheet. I think the husband`s tactics are far more
reprehensible than her posting it.
PINSKY: You don`t think it`s a good idea?
CATHERWOOD: Listen, if your wife is not going to be intimate with you as much as you`d like, maybe the first thing you should do is try to talk to
her.
TWEEDEN: Mike, he probably did try other things.
CATHERWOOD: I think that the first time she found out about this little spreadsheet and him, you know, cataloging all the times that he approached
her and got shot down is when he e-mailed it to her, like a spineless -- what a wimp! This passive-aggressive smarmy brick, then sends it to her
while she`s on a business trip. I mean, I think that`s the least damaging thing she could do, by posting it online.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hang on, Laila, is just smiling away. I want to hear what she`s thinking. What`s going on?
LAILA ALI: I think it`s funny. Look, first of all, I believe that he probably had been trying to talk to her. And I`m the type of person, when I
have an argument and I want to lay the facts down, you know, she knows what her excuses are, but he was going ahead and keeping track, so there`s no
way now she`s going to be able to like, no, I didn`t say that. You know, but, I think the bigger problem is that she doesn`t want to have sex with
her husband.
PINSKY: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
ALI: No marriage is going to make it if you`re not giving it up.
CATHERWOOD: 1How about all the time that he took to catalog the times he got rejected, maybe invest a little bit of that time in himself and maybe
she`d want to bang him.
TWEEDEN: Come on, Mike! We have to -- we don`t know the backstory. I`m sure the guy has been trying and trying and trying and this was a last resort.
Let`s face it. Him writing down and putting into Powerpoint or making this presentation for her and e-mailing it to her, or whatever you have -- or
word or whatever he put it in. It`s like, come on. She`s not giving it up. Why even be married? I mean, that`s part of marriage!
PINSKY: That`s right.
CATHERWOOD: It is part of marriage, but, Miss Tweeden, clearly you don`t have a boner, because you would understand that if a guy is not getting
tended to, the first thing you should do is go to his computer and start a spreadsheet of sites he can go to, to then release the valve.
PINSKY: I have no doubt he`s done that.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Sam, you`ve never used excuses like this. These excuses are bazaar. You all seem a little familiar with these excuses.
SCHACHER: Yeah. I actually -- I`m sorry, when I read this, at first glance, I thought it was hilarious and I though it was damning, I was like, oh,
shoot, I`ve used that excuse and that excuse. And I`m sorry, lot of couples in long-term relationships can relate. But clearly, there is an issue here,
not only of a lack of intimacy, but I`m with you, Mike, there`s a lack of communication. There`s nothing sexier than a spreadsheet. I mean, come on!
TWEEDEN: But look at the wife, she posted it on Reddit. So, obviously -- I mean, I would never do that, because, obviously, that shows her not in a
good light, not giving it up to her husband.
ALI: At least he sent her an e-mail. I think that he could have used better judgment than to send her an e-mail. But at the same time, I understand him
wanting to get his point across.
TWEEDEN: He`s frustrated!
PINSKY: They could have both used better judgment and seen a marriage counselor or sex therapist and perhaps look at what`s wrong with the
intimacy between the two of them and why there`s this frustration. There`s a whole list of reasons why these things break down. And by the way, I want
to remind people, for women, one important issue that is overlooked routinely is their biological status, whether they`re on medication, if
they`re on hormonal contraceptives.
TWEEDEN: That time of the month.
PINSKY: Absolutely, some, whether on menopausal.
CATHERWOOD: That should stop.
PINSKY: Make a spreadsheet.
SCHACHER: Or you feel gross!
PINSKY: Well, Sam, forget that one.
TWEEDEN: Take a shower.
SCHACHER: I`m just.
PINSKY: And for you, specifically, that will never work again.
SCHACHER: I was repeating what was on the spreadsheet, geez!
PINSKY: But menopause -- perimenopause has treatments now. People, we really need to pay attention to that. And when the ovaries shut down,
testosterone shuts down, and we`ve had, frankly, a bias in how we evaluate women and women`s libido, because we`ll say things like, well, testosterone
is the male hormone, it`s the man hormone. Turns out, testosterone is the mediator of libido in men and women. And when the ovaries shut down or
begin to shut down during menopause and perimenopause, libido shuts down in women as the testosterone rise, and draws down.
ALI: That too.
PINSKY: Yeah, I`m just saying. Yes, it all goes together. But the fact is, it`s something that really -- it`s not a laughing matter.
SCHACHER: No, I know.
PINSKY: No, it`s funny, but marriages can be destroyed because of these biological problems that can be treated. And of course, it can be an
interpersonal problem as well, which you guys have been alluding to. You can have your say on this story. Take our online poll at hlntv.com/drew.
We`ll look at that poll when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s kept tabs, outling the number of times he`s tried to have sex with his wife, how many times she`s said yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need a shower. I ate too much. I`m too tired.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty eight tries. Three yeses.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have to be up early. I may be getting sick. I`m watching my show. I don`t want to miss anything.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Leeann, Laila, and Mike. We`re talking about the young man who tracked his sex life on a spreadsheet and his wife posted it
on Reddit. Let`s look at what some of our Facebook friends are saying about this. Sylvia says, you women need to stop making excuses. She deprived him
and she had the nerve to be mad that he made this list. Other guys would have cheated and got themselves a sex side dish.
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh.
PINSKY: There you go. Aren`t you guys angry at that one?
SCHACHER: I mean, Dr. Drew, first and foremost, I want to see more of that reenactment. That is hilarious and priceless, the voice alone.
PINSKY: Well.
SCHACHER: But you know what, men and women are turned on differently. And that`s why you need to have communication within your relationship. Women,
you know, we tend to want to be more appreciated and adored and that gets us in the mood.
PINSKY: That`s true.
SCHACHER: And men just want to have sex.
PINSKY: What`s that, Leeann?
TWEEDEN: I said wine and dine. I mean, look, I just got a tweet from a woman who was just like, oh, women should just be able to give it up on
demand to their husbands? Not! Whoever wrote that, I`m sorry, I just read it briefly. I`m talking to you. I did not mean that in any way that a woman
should be giving it up whenever the man wants, but look, sex is an important part of marriage. And usually, when you get married, you expect
sex, you know? Three times in like a month, if the guy wanted it more, and he was trying, then, you know, maybe there`s an issue there and you guys
should work it out.
PINSKY: I`ve now been informed that the woman is 26 years of age. And my whole lecture about.
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: It should be going on!
PINSKY: Well, it could be meditation, could be hormonal contraceptive. But in any event, it`s probably something between them, because you say, the
intimacy is what`s important. And I`ve tried to tell young men that the foreplay is dinner and you`ve got to get used to that idea. Mike, hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
CATHERWOOD: Who said that? That she might be cheating on him?
TWEEDEN: I said it!
CATHERWOOD: OK, that`s impossible! Because when girls cheat on a guy in a long-term relationship, then they go back and bang you more. It`s like your
penis is made out of Christian.
PINSKY: Here`s what I want to do. Sam, you said you wanted some more reenactment.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. I`ve not heard from Laila, yet. How about, Mike, you and Laila Ali reenact how this would have transpired.
SCHACHER: What?
CATHERWOOD: Thank you for having Laila on the show, by the way. I like that you guys finally have a girl named, Miss Ali, on the show that I don`t
hate. All right, Laila, let`s pretend for a moment that you`re this 26- year-old young lady and I`m, of course, this prick of a husband. Here we go. Hey, baby, I know, you`re watching your favorite show there, what do
you say press pause, because we`ve got the tivo, the DVR and you and I get a little freaky under the sheets.
ALI: I`ll probably say, look, if you make it worth my time, I`ll give it up more often. At least three or four times a week. Look people, at the end of
the day, if the sex is good, you`re going to get it. If not, may not. At the end of the day, that`s what it`s all about. I don`t care what`s going
on.
TWEEDEN: And she said she felt yucky and gross, I`m telling you, sometimes the best sex is when you`re yucky and gross after the gym. That`s all I`m
saying. And I`ve been together with my husband for ten years.
PINSKY: The longer we continue to discuss this, the more we`re going to learn about our panel. I`m just saying, Mike.
CATHERWOOD: Dr. Drew, I got lost. There are so many women talking. Why don`t you women just give it up?
PINSKY: On hlntv.com, we asked, do you think -- whom do you think is right? Who is on the right side of this? And 68 percent of you sided with the
husband, 32 percent took the wife`s side. Anybody surprised about that?
SCHACHER: No. I mean, she shouldn`t have blasted it online. That just crosses the line completely. Not to say that the spreadsheet was any
better, but.
CATHERWOOD: All joking aside, plenty of times you don`t feel like having sex, even if you`re in a committed relationship where you love the other
partner. But when he gets the excuse, I feel gross, that`s his job to then make her not feel gross. Not to walk to his computer and then start typing
away and cataloging, you know, exactly how he got his excuses.
SCHACHER: Bingo!
PINSKY: Not only that, you know, it concerns me that women sort of attack and blame women a lot. And we have a lot of women viewers on this show.
SCHACHER: I didn`t!
PINSKY: But our viewers are siding with the men on this.
SCHACHER: Well, because she blasted it online, Dr. Drew.
TWEEDEN: And it`s always a two-way street, people.
PINSKY: Do we think this relationship can be saved?
CATHERWOOD: No!
ALI: Yes.
SCHACHER: I hope so.
ALI: Definitely.
TWEEDEN: I don`t think so.
PINSKY: I think it at least needs an evaluation. Please, guys, this is what`s so silly to me. They`re going to these -- let`s see what Danine
Mannette is saying. She should make a spreadsheet of how many times he`s helped her around the house. The 2 lists might be more related than he
knows. Another important thing for men to know that taking the garbage out has aphrodisiac effects.
(CROSSTALK)
ALI: I tell my husband that all the time. He says, what happened, you know, when we were dating, you said, (inaudible), that was before I was cleaning
your drawers and your dishes every night. Help me out and I`ll help you out, brother.
PINSKY: With that said, I`ll take a quick break. Be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I`ve been trying to kill myself for a lot of years, but by the grace of God, I`m still here.
PINSKY: What`s the primary drug?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I use alcohol and crack cocaine. I`ve been to prison, you know, numerous times, hiding my drug use right here. And I`ve traveled
all across the country, right? Ever since I was like 13 years old.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
PINSKY: We`ve got a new look at homeless in America up on our web page tonight. I spent some time on Los Angeles` skid row, discussing, just
meeting and talking to the men, women, even the youngsters who don`t have anywhere to go, for many different reasons, and the kinds of issues we`re
running into included domestic violence, lack of affordable housing. Sixty thousand of the homeless population are veterans. And there are ways out,
but the resources are varied, they`re confusing. A lot of people felt locked into homelessness, even by the resources they were getting. Homeless
in America, check it out on our web page, hlntv.com/drew. Sam, I want to bring the panel back. Leeann, Laila, and Mike, because, we were getting
tons of tweets about that story we we`re just getting into. Let`s have at it, guys, a little more. Let`s just.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, you haven`t chimed in on this and you`ve been married successfully for 20-something years. What`s your secret?
PINSKY: Listen, the duchess of Dallas here is sort of clueing into it. There`s nothing sexier to a spreadsheet. So, I adhere to that policy. I`ll
tell you that.
TWEEDEN: But come on guys, you`ve got to know that he didn`t sit there and get on the computer the minute she gave an excuse every time. I mean, I
think it was something that was building and building and building. We don`t know the back story but, come on, I`m sure he tried a lot of
different things and finally got frustrated.
PINSKY: All right, listen, any -- Mike.
CATHERWOOD: Yes?
PINSKY: Bare me up on this. Have there been times when you`ve been frustrated like that? Where you felt like, I can`t believe all these
excuses. I should write these things down.
CATHERWOOD: I was actually in a long-term relationship that was close to sexless. I can feel this guy`s pain. But Leann`s right. Maybe he built up
to it, but it`s the sheer fact that that was his coping mechanism.
PINSKY: Right, the fact that he.
CATHERWOOD: He says a lot a lot about his character.
PINSKY: That`s right. It said, he did this, it says aggression. Who`s talking to me? Somebody`s trying to get to me. Laila, is that you?
ALI: No. I wasn`t, but I don`t understand what the big problem is with the spreadsheet. Like I said.
PINSKY: It`s aggressive, passive-aggressive. They should have been dealing with their relationship.
(CROSSTALK)
ALI: But they might have been. What if he had been telling her, look, you keep making excuses and she said, no, I don`t, and he had to prove to her,
and break it down for her to see and put it in her face and now she has to deal with it and she has to be accountable.
CATHERWOOD: He made it a spread your leg sheet.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: I was waiting for you to say that, Mike.
PINSKY: Of course, low-hanging fruit. But the fact is, he -- listen, this is sad, we`re making fun but it`s sad.
SCHACHER: I know.
PINSKY: This is a marriage that is struggling. Everybody, pay attention into this people it`s physically and emotionally. It tends that they care
(inaudible), nurture it and build it and get help while you can. Thank you, panel. DVR us please anytime, so you can watch us anytime. Forensic Files
is up next and it begins right now.
END
