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At This Hour

Shells Strike U.N. School in Gaza; Interview with IDF Spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner; The Dutch Mourn Their MH-17 Victims; Air Algerie Flight 5017 Believe to Have Crashed in Mali

Aired July 24, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Horrific attack in Gaza, shells slam into a U.N. school killing and wounding civilians who were taking shelter there.

More people in more countries fearing they've lost loved ones in yet another air disaster, @THISHOUR, an African airline reports that a passenger jet has crashed.

Good morning to you. I'm Michaela Pereira. I'd like to welcome our viewers here the U.S. and around the globe.

John Berman is off today. We'll have those stories and so very much more @THISHOUR.

We begin with breaking news out of Gaza. Shells have hit a U.N.-run school where Palestinians were seeking shelter from Israeli attacks.

We're heading straight right now to Ian Lee. He joins us from a hospital in Gaza where the victims have been taken. Ian, what can you tell us about the attack?

IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we just actually came back from the hospital, but it was a very chaotic scene there, dozens of people running around trying to get the injured into the hospital.

We saw people on beds, on stretchers, laid out basically in any available space. All the rooms were full. We are talking to paramedics there, saying that a dozen people have been killed.

Now with our own eyes when we went to the morgue, we saw eight people dead, a lot of families there searching for their loved ones, trying to find out their situation, but when we were walking around looking at, a lot of people were women and children who were also injured in this attack.

Now we're not quite sure at this moment who is responsible. Now the Israeli military is saying that it was a Hamas-fired rocket that landed at this school. Now Hamas is denying that, saying that this was a strike from the Israelis.

Now we don't know quite yet who is responsible, but the International Red Cross has said that this incident, whatever it was, there was innocent people that were just too close to the action, and they have said that this just isn't right, that this sort of thing shouldn't happen.

I've been to these schools before. I've seen them. These are areas where people try to go to find shelter from the violence here in the Gaza Strip. There's over 140,000 people all over Gaza, taking shelter in these sort of schools. These are areas where they think, they believe, that they will be safe.

Now, the U.N. has come out and said that, twice today, that they tried to coordinate with the Israeli military to move people from the school in question to get them out of there, but they said both times their requests were denied.

Now Israel has accused Hamas of using international recognized symbols, whether it's medics, ambulances, as well as journalists, accusing Hamas of using them as shields to move about and saying that this sort of thing, blaming them, blaming Hamas for when these sorts of incidents happen.

Well, the -- sorry, the U.N. has found weapons at U.N.-run schools twice, two incidents where the U.N. has found rockets stored at U.N. schools.

So, right now, though, when it comes to this school, we are unsure who is responsible for this strike.

PEREIRA: And, of course, this just points to the urgency and the need for some sort of cease-fire. Again, we don't know where this attack came from. We know there are dead among those casualties.

Ian Lee, thanks to you. Thanks for getting the latest information from the hospital for us.

Meanwhile, Israel has responded to that attack. We want to get the very latest on that side of the story. Our Wolf Blitzer joins us now from Jerusalem.

What are you hearing from the Israeli military, Wolf?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Well, we're about to speak to the spokesman for the Israeli military, but if Ian Lee is still there -- Ian, if you can still here me -- a quick question, has the United Nations, the people there on the scene, have they directly accused Israel of launching this rocket or this shell or this artillery fire, whatever it was?

Do they blame Israel or are they leaving it open for now? What is the U.N. position?

LEE: Well, Wolf, the U.N. position right now is open. They have yet to place blame on this really both sides that are blaming the other. Hamas is blaming the Israelis, Israelis are blaming Hamas, and the U.N. right now is trying to get an idea of exactly what happened. When we visited that school, it was empty. There weren't anyone there. They were all rushed to the area hospitals, but right now, it's a very fluid situation as they try to figure out who is responsible for this.

BLITZER: All right. Ian Lee, stand by. Obviously we're going to get back to you.

Michaela, we do have the spokesman for the IDF, the Israel Defense Forces, Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner is with us.

You put out a statement, you raised the possibility -- you don't know for sure, but you raised the possibility it was a Hamas rocket that actually blew up this United Nations school.

What evidence do you have for that?

LT. COL. PETER LERNER, SPOKESMAN, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES: We have our sensors which have indications that at least on two or three different occasions in the course of the afternoon, rockets launched from within Gaza landed within Beit Hanoun.

I'm not saying that that's the situation, which still needs to be investigated, and we are looking into it. The IDF does not target U.N. facilities. We knew there were rockets in U.N. schools. We are having an ongoing relationship, working relationship, with the United Nations, operating within the context of the conflict and beyond.

We do not target U.N. We actually appealed to them three days ago, together with the Red Cross, to evacuates this area because we understand that there is extensive Hamas terrorist infrastructure in this area and that they will abuse it and they will put the people at risk like they have been doing over the last five or six days in the ground forces activities.

They go to no end in order to carry out their attacks. They will utilize ambulances. They will utilize journalists. They will utilize schools. They will utilize everything that is at their hand in order to carry out attacks and to strike the IDF in its ground operation to solve this problem of tunnels, rockets.

I would say and I will comment on the pictures that are coming out of Beit Hanoun. They are horrific and this is not us. We do not intentionally target civilians. There is, of course, in the heat of battle in that area where there is extensive fighting going on, there is an option that there could be errant fire. We do not target the U.N.

BLITZER: You heard Ian Lee, our reporter, excellent reporter, on the scene. He said he spoke with the U.N. and they said they twice tried to give the IDF, the Israeli military, the coordinates of this school. They did not get any response from you.

What do you say?

LERNER: Wolf, we know that they are utilizing the schools to -- as shelters for people. We have that ongoing relationship with the U.N., and it is an open -- say -- hotline during the course of the conflict.

We actually appealed to them three days ago not to hold people in this school, not to hold people in this area, that they should move them to other areas in central Gaza, but they had refrained to do so.

I -- just before I came online, just before I came into here, I got an update that, 15 minutes before this unfortunate incident, they informed us they were bringing busses in order to evacuate the people.

This is tragic, but we do not target civilians.

BLITZER: So when they say they were trying to alert you and give you coordinates and you didn't respond. You said you -- you're saying you did respond, is that what you're saying?

LERNER: I'm saying that we've been trying for three days to urge them to evacuate the people from this location. And for three days, we had met a brick wall of saying that we can't do so. We can't evacuate them. We can't urge them. We cannot force them out of this area, despite our urging.

But today, earlier, just before this unfortunate incident, we received confirmation that they are sending busses to evacuate the people.

BLITZER: So you're investigating, the U.N. will investigate, I'm sure Hamas will investigate who is responsible for blowing up this U.N. school.

When do you think the Israeli report will be complete?

LERNER: We will take it, and we will take some time. We have to see what's going on. The battles are ongoing.

BLITZER: Yeah, Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, thanks very much.

So there you have it, Michaela. You have the Israeli response. Hamas of course denies that it was one of its rockets that landed in this Beit Hanoun area, blowing up the school, for all practical purposes, killing so many people and injuring scores of others.

Whoever was responsible, it's an awful, awful incident, and it underscores, as you correctly point out, the need for a cease-fire as quickly as possible.

PEREIRA: And, Wolf, before I lose you, let me ask you, is there any sense -- you know, the lieutenant colonel there speaking of the fact that they had urged these people to evacuate to central Gaza, do you get a sense there are sufficient shelters in that area for innocent people to go?

BLITZER: I get a sense that Gaza is so crowded -- it's about 1.8 million people in a small area. The whole Gaza Strip is only 26 miles long. I'm not sure there are any really secure areas in Gaza right now.

People can leave the north. They can go to the central part of Gaza, go to the southern part of Gaza, but the whole place is pretty insecure right now, very, very dangerous.

And it underscores, as I say, they've got to stop this. They've got to stop this as quickly as possible, and let's hope John Kerry and other international diplomats can come up with a cease-fire.

They are, by the way -- I must say, I'm hearing some encouraging words. They're making a little progress, perhaps, on this two-phased cease-fire, start off with an immediate cessation and then immediately deal with some of the humanitarian issues, some of the demands that Hamas is making, certainly the demands the Israelis are making.

They're making some progress. Let's hope they can resolve this very quickly so there are no more of these horrible incidents we've seen at this U.N. school at Beit Hanoun in Gaza.

PEREIRA: Eight dead, we know of. You're right, Wolf. Short-term fixes versus long-term solutions, both need to be addressed immediately.

We appreciate it, great reporting on the ground. Thanks for that great conversation and your work there.

Ahead @THISHOUR, the grief and devastation surrounding the attack on Flight 17 seen and felt firsthand by my colleague Chris Cuomo. He's going to join me here in studio. We'll discuss that.

Also, another air tragedy, another plane, vanishing from radar, what happened?

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PEREIRA: The national day of mourning may be over in the Netherlands, but certainly the grief and the outrage could last for generations.

Let's give you the latest details @THISHOUR. A week after Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 went down, 74 more coffins arriving in the Netherlands from Ukraine. Dutch officials say identifying those remains, though, could take months.

The operation to transfer them should be finished by tomorrow, barring any delays.

International monitors, we know, are back on scene, what is being called the biggest crime scene in the world right now.

Russia and Ukraine still blaming each other for firing the missile that brought down the jet and killed the 298 souls on board.

Today the European Union will talk tougher sanctions against Russia. For the first time, the E.U. might decide to punish Russian companies.

So those are the cold hard facts. We want to turn to the personal stories, the loss of 298 lives, their families changed forever, the toll it's taking on their loved ones.

Our Chris Cuomo just got back from Amsterdam. And Chris, first of all, I think we all appreciated the reporting you did, because not only were you letting us know about the scene there at Ukraine, at the crash site, we'll talk about that in a second, but when you got to Amsterdam, you really made it vital for us to understand the impact this was having on so many of the families there.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": CNN made a decision to follow the bodies and to take up the angle of coverage of the victims very early on in the story. Because I think our bosses, who have been through a lot of these, were worried that the victims would get caught up in the politics.

PEREIRA: We could almost see that coming considering how rife with conflict the whole situation has been.

CUOMO: I might not have guessed that so early on, but that's the benefit of being here, right? Is that they have covered so many different situations around the world that literally you build up an instinct. So we were paying attention to that right away and obviously the move would be to go from Ukraine to Holland, the Netherlands, Amsterdam, for the bodies and I was very surprised and impressed, I think the whole team was, with how that country came together so quickly.

PEREIRA: They haven't had that kind of disaster. It's a small nation. We've been hearing reports about the fact that everybody there, knows somebody who was affected by this. Do you get a sense that there's rage as well? Because often times following grief comes that anger and the desire to make somebody pay. Did you get a sense of any of that?

CUOMO: It would be even more justifiable here than usual because even if you played out the scenario where this is a hostile air space and this plane was collateral damage, the abuse of the situation after the crash, that would be unforgivable even on top of an accident. Okay. So they had every right for rage. I think there was such a maturity among the Dutch in terms of dealing with this that had two parts. One, I think a deep sense of humanity. The Dutch, everyone kept saying, you know they're not known for outward displays. I don't know how you generalize a whole group on 16 million people.

PEREIRA: We know how we do that though.

CUOMO: That is right, you know. So, whatever the disposition of them, I think there was an immediate rush of consolation of the victim, take care of that emotion.

PEREIRA: Yes. The a nation sort of wrapped them up in their collective arms.

CUOMO: And the knowledge that there's very little chance that given the complete incompetence of the militants who are overlooking this scene, or not overlooking it I would submit, you're going to have all the bodies. You need a relationship with these people in order to get access. I think there's a real maturity on the part of Dutch leadership to make sure that they give themselves the best chance to get closure for their families. PEREIRA: Preeminent diplomacy. You make a good point. This is such

stark contrast to the scene you first arrived at. I watched you really struggle with trying to understand how the scene could be so disrupted and yet, you felt a very real threat and very real danger on the scene in those first hours that you were there?

CUOMO: It is a real threat. I mean, the men and women who are there covering this right now, putting themselves in harm's way and great personal toll in order to get the story out. And, you know, very often we debate, should you go, should we not go, you and I had that discussion when we're talking about my plans to go places, but I have to tell you in this situation, I think if the media hadn't been there, and CNN was just one of countless media organizations, you would not have had anybody preserving the scene and you wouldn't have anybody protecting against whatever instincts these militia men had.

You know, the deceased who are there, I've never seen anything like that. Obviously we talk a lot about this stuff off camera, but if you and I are warring with each other, there's an inherent disrespect for each other and the dead of each other. I've never seen such disrespect in a situation where there was no animosity involved. These people had no part of this conflict.

The self-appointed prime minister said a federal monitoring -- international monitoring organization told him to ignore the bodies and do that. That's just not true. We checked with the organization. This was just a function of pure disrespect.

PEREIRA: The one thing I love that you also made a point of showing was that the villagers there did what they could to try to give some dignity to this tragedy and try to pay some respects. They held a very solemn service there.

CUOMO: They did.

PEREIRA: And that was a beautiful thing as well. I'm glad you were there.

CUOMO: And dangerous.

PEREIRA: Very dangerous.

CUOMO: Because it wasn't welcomed by the militia there. Because it was seen as sign of disrespect of their control.

PEREIRA: I am so glad you were there to tell the story, but also glad to see you back here. You need to be safe with your family as well. Thanks Chris, thanks for sharing this with us.

CUOMO: Thank you.

PEREIRA: Short break ahead @THISHOUR. Another devastating plane disaster as an Air Algerie flight vanishes from the radar. We are going to take a look at what happened. Do we know? So many questions. We will be back.

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PEREIRA: @THISHOUR, more people in more nations around the world will be mourning the loss of their loved ones, once again in a plane disaster. This time in Africa. Just a short time ago, Air Algerie tweeted that Flight 5017 apparently crashed. Air Algerie is Algeria's main carrier. It was an MD-83 jet. It left the west African nation of Burkina Faso, it was headed to Algiers. In about an hour, some 50 minutes into the flight, the plane simply disappeared from radar.

The airline now believes that the airplane went down in eastern Mali. There were 116 people on board from multiple countries. The state department does not believe any Americans were on board. However airport officials in Burkina Faso say the daughter of Cuban President Raul Castro, the niece of Fidel Castro, was one of them. They posted that on the airport's Facebook page. We have not received confirmation or word, any reports out of Havana, we're pursuing that and will bring that to you.

Want to bring in our safety analyst David Soucie, and Chad Myers is also here. Chad, I actually want to talk to you, Indra Peterson, our meteorologist, earlier this morning was giving us an idea about weather in that region of the globe, it looks as though weather very well could have been a factor. What do we know about what's been going on there weather wise?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: A factor maybe, you will talk to David later and he will say one thing won't bring down an airplane. And this is an area where you talk about the ITCZ, the zone that creates the hurricanes that eventually get to America. Look at all the weather all the way through here. This is the convergence tropical zone that gets into the Atlantic that eventually goes all the way to the west and into our airports, into our shores, into our hurricane zone. But there's Burkina Faso, there was the storm it tried to fly through or around on it ways to here. On Ug-859, a well known flight pattern here, and then all the way up to Algiers, flying right into a very large cell, or even series of cells.

PEREIRA: Chad, thanks so much for that. And David Soucie, one thing doesn't bring down an airplane. We do know apparently the pilot had, sort of, alerted air traffic that they wanted to reroute a little bit because of weather. That's the one thing we do know.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well we do know it was actually the air traffic that asked him to divert.

PEREIRA: Okay.

SOUCIE: So he made this diversion because of weather. But that doesn't mean it was bad enough where it would have brought the aircraft down, as he mentioned, en route. Weather has never really -- sometimes has, but only rarely does it cause a problem with an aircraft to cause it to go down.

PEREIRA: What other things would cause it too? So you have got weather, what other factors? SOUCIE: Well, what happens with weather is it causes -- It's another

thing to consider for the pilot. In every accident site there's more than one cause. Everything has a different cause and they are all culminated. So you have five or six things that happen. When weather occurs and changes the routine, that's when it makes you vulnerable to other types of things as well.

PEREIRA: Like?

SOUCIE: For example, reacting to a depressurization. You are trying to react to depressurization while you have a -- while you're dealing with weather, you have to worry about the weather below as opposed to ahead --

PEREIRA: Wouldn't we have heard a call from the plane?

SOUCIE: Absolutely. That's what makes this such a mystery right now, is why was there not a call? Why wasn't there -- the last thing we heard was, yes we are going to divert. That's all they knew.

PEREIRA: MD-83, give us an idea of this airplane. What do you know about it? Good mechanical record?

SOUCIE: If you were to say it's a good reliable tractor and has been for the FAA it's been there, it has been there forever within the aviation industry. It's one of the backbone - The MD-83 is on of the backbone airplanes oft the entire aviation industry. It has a very good safety record and no reason to suspect it was mechanical at this point necessarily.

PEREIRA: David Soucie, the latest report that we are getting is that the plane went down in Mali, It was on it's way to Algiers, left Burkina Faso, 116 souls on board, their fate we know not of at this hour.

So, we want to say thank you to you and our thanks to Chad. Obviously, this is a story we're going to stay on top of. Chad Myers and David Soucie, thank you. A short break here.

Ahead, more bloodshed in the Middle East where most victims have been innocent civilians. The question is can diplomatic solutions be reached? Are they viable? We're going to speak with a former U.S. ambassador to the U.N. next.

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