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At This Hour

Israel-Gaza Crisis, MH-17 Shoot-Down Impacts the International Community; Identification of MH-17 Victims Underway; Ukraine Cabinet Resigns, Coalition Collapses; CNN Ukraine Freelance Correspondent Abducted

Aired July 24, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Good to have you back with us @THISHOUR.

Just a matter of days, hundreds more killed in the Middle East. The majority, innocent civilians. Multiple deaths hours ago, in fact, after shells struck a U.N.-run school that was serving as a shelter in Gaza. And a commercial airliner shot down over Ukraine. 298 innocent lives lost. Their remains finally being returned to their loved ones. These crises are not just challenging world leaders and diplomats but they're also impacting the international community.

Joining us to discuss this is U.S. -- former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Bill Richardson.

Sir, it's very much a pleasure to have you back with me today.

BILL RICHARDSON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Thank you.

It's difficult in light of all the conversations that we need to be having right now. And I have to say, we know the very delicate nature of foreign relations, finding solutions to all these crises very difficult but very critical.

RICHARDSON: It's essential. Again the United States is a key player, but we can't just do it alone. In the Middle East, we have to get Egypt, which is helping, Qatar. Turkey, they're potential play players. And a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. In Russia, in the Ukraine, we need the European Union to help us put pressure on Russia to end the fighting in the Ukraine by finally moving forward with some sanctions. So you're right, Michaela, it's a very turbulent world. The Middle East is exploding. But what we need is allies. And I think Secretary Kerry is doing the right thing intensive whirlwind diplomacy led by us, but also with major players like the European Union and Egypt and the Middle East helping us all the way.

PEREIRA: So let's talk about that with Secretary Kerry there on the ground in the Middle East, working to essentially rework that cease- fire agreement that Egypt initially put forward. It was summarily rejected by Hamas. Do you feel confident that we're getting closer? Do you think that conditions that Hamas has laid out are manageable for Israel? Do you think the two are getting any closer? Because the fact is, we saw more innocent die just hours ago.

RICHARDSON: Well, it's not going to be immediate, but I see some positive signs. For instance, a reduction in some Israeli bombings. More conciliatory statements by Hamas. They're reducing some of their demands on the blockade. I think Egypt, a good part of this entire effort, is that Egypt is stepping up as a potential cease-fire peacemaker. What I think needs to happen now is Qatar. They house the Hamas people in Qatar. I think Qatar can play a more active role.

The problem, Michaela, is that Egypt and Qatar don't get along, Egypt and Hamas don't get along, Turkey seems to be not playing because they're so pro-Hamas. I think there needs to be a constellation of pressure moving more in a more unified way. This is where I think Secretary Kerry, who knows the region well -- he invested a lot in this Israeli-Palestinian peace, can bring people together. And I do think Israel is ready to -- after it protects itself by destroying some of these tunnels, after making sure their people are safe from these huge bombardments from Hamas, that they will move towards a cease-fire, which is essential before any more reduction of tensions is brought forward.

PEREIRA: The hope is it would be a lasting one. We don't want to be right back here in a couple years like we've seen happen in years past.

Allow me to turn for a second to the situation in Ukraine. Again, we're watching the aftermath of 298 lives lost, innocent victims in the midst of a conflict there. I want to ask you, we know that you've written a book, you've been involved in many high stakes negotiations on the world stage. This book you wrote "How to Sweet Talk a Shark" maybe you're the man to ask, how would you deal with someone like Vladimir Putin today? How would you negotiate? How would you pressure? What do you think could be done to reason with such a man?

RICHARDSON: Well, I think the European Union, if today when they discuss sanctions, they move forward and not just talk about sanctions, for instance, on Russian banks, on state-owned banks that have been bolstering the Russian economy, preventing European investors from investing there, a potential arms embargo on Russia, technology and other embargoes from the European Union to Russia. The problem is 28 countries in the European Union have to act unanimously. But for the first time, because of this horrendous tragedy, there seems to be an effort to really punish Russia, not just talking about it.

Germany is going to be the key. If Germany says, well, you know, let's give them more time, then it's not going to happen because they're the strongest economy in Europe that deals with Russia. But I see signs that finally the international community, after this tragedy, is moving forward.

I like the Australian proposal of a multinational force comprised of Australia, the Dutch, Malaysia, to move in there to get unfettered access to the bodies, to the evidence. This could end up, Michaela, this entire tragedy, in an international court -- probably not the U.N., because Russia can veto an international criminal court effort -- but some kind of international court like the Lockerbie, Pan Am, that involved the Libyans. These are not good days for Russia and Vladimir Putin. But pressure is what is going to make Putin move. I disagree with those that say that Putin is not conscious of the international effort on the Russian economy, which is being threatened by more sanctions, and the Russian economy is not necessarily in good shape right now.

PEREIRA: Certainly isn't.

Former ambassador to the U.N., Bill Richardson, always a pleasure to have you with us. We'll hope the European leaders along with other allies can work together to put some pressure on the situation there and make some things change. Thanks for joining us.

A short break. Ahead @THISHOUR, the difficult task of identifying the remains of the MH-17 victims. It is under way. How long is it going to be before families receive the remains of their loved ones though? We'll talk about that next.

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PEREIRA: @THISHOUR we're learning more about yet another air disaster. Air Algeria reporting that flight 5017 with 116 people aboard likely crashed about an hour into its trip from Burkina Faso to Algiers. It was about a four-hour flight north. 116 people on board. The airline says there were people of multiple nationalities on the plane. The State Department does not believe that there were any Americans aboard. Our Chad Myers says there was severe weather in the region at the time.

Meanwhile, in the Netherlands, more bodies from the Malaysia Airlines shoot down have arrived in the Netherlands from Ukraine. 74 cover fins total today. It could be months before their remains are identified.

Let's talk about the identification of those bodies right now. Our chief medical correspondent, Sanjay Gupta, joins us.

Sanjay, I'm glad to have you there. We know this is grim work, really difficult and tough and emotional work, but we also know it is so vital. Give us an idea of this identification process and how it might differ from say a regular autopsy?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the scale alone, Michaela, makes this very different. It's a military base behind me. It's a very somber as you might imagine mood here. A lot of people coming to pay their respects.

In terms of the autopsy alone, it's scale. You have stations set up inside trying to facilitate this process. 75 investigators, I was talking to officials earlier, the process has begun for these investigators. They set up these stations. Everything from looking at the most basic identification techniques, what was the person wearing, what kind of jewelry, any identifying marks on their body and move on to things like dental records and medical records and ultimately DNA. I'll tell you, it's the conversations right now that these investigators must have with families to try to collect that information. It is time -- it is time, obviously, but also such heartbreaking work. It's all part of this process -- Michaela?

PEREIRA: Yeah. It certainly is. We know that it's going to continue as they continue to remove bodies from the scene, put them aboard the train, get them on a plane, and get them back to Amsterdam. Is there any sense of how long all of this is going to take, even just I.D.'ing the body parts they have there?

GUPTA: We're not talking about hours and days here, we're talking about weeks and months. It's always difficult to say, I will tell you, you know, when you talk to these forensic examiners, this is not something they want to rush. Obviously, you don't want to make mistakes. You want to be very complete. Given the idea that these -- the remains were sitting in this field for some time, they have to be careful about contamination when doing DNA evidence, for example. You want to make sure you're not looking at something that is an incorrect result. So when the flight in Tripoli crashed in 2010, it took about 30 days for 104 people to be identified. So again, I think we're talking about that kind of time frame here.

PEREIRA: There's questions if the remains were disturbed or contaminated on the scene. Give us a sense, though, as you've been watching all of this, how well equipped are they to handle this? It came as such a devastating and terrible surprise to this nation, and we know it's impacted them. Do they have the equipment, the resources, to deal with all of this?

GUPTA: It really seems like they do, Michaela. Again, it's very -- a large number of investigators, 75 investigators, people have been coming in and out of the military base all day. We don't know what their connection is with this particular investigation. But you have a large group of people who have come together for this.

And also I should point out that the military force here really is directing the investigation. Whereas, the United States, after TWA, for example, it was the medical examiners sort of directing the investigation. I think as a result, they have a lot of resources here to get this done. Time will tell, but my guess again, Michaela, is before final identification is made on everyone, all those souls on that plane, you know, it's some time will have passed, weeks if not a couple months.

PEREIRA: Again, we have to remember while 192, 193 of them were Dutch citizens, there were people from around the globe. Those bodies will have to be repatriated to their home nations as well. That's going to take some time.

Sanjay Gupta, Doctor, thank you for looking at this with us.

Ahead @THISHOUR, a freelance journalist working for CNN has been abducted in Ukraine by pro-Russian separatists. We'll give you the details next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PEREIRA: We're getting some clarity on some information on the flight AH-5017, the airplane that crashed in Mali that was destined for Algiers. The airport -- the Facebook page for Bakino Faso said that the daughter of Castro was on board that plane. We're being told that is not true. The center that she runs in Havana said that she is in Havana. In fact, CNN teams on the ground in Havana said that they have spotted her, that she is at an event there at the Cuban Center for Sexual Education and that she was not on board that plane. We're going to continue to watch that as word comes of that airplane crash in mail.

Meanwhile, we're watching some breaking news out of Ukraine. The Ukrainian cabinet, including the prime minister, has resigned. The prime minister said some members of the governing coalition pulled out, resulting in a collapse of the coalition.

Sara Sidner is live in Kiev and brings us the latest details on how all this played out -- Sara?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, this may seem like almost insanity to the outside world with all that Ukraine is dealing with right now, that the government has basically dissolved. The cabinet has dissolved. The prime minister has resigned. But actually, this is what was promised during the presidential elections which happened at the end of May. There was a promise made, and that promise was made because the government has many, many members of the former regime still in place. Some of whom are out of the country, have run from corruption charges. Police still want to get their hands on them. And there are some members inside the parliament that are elected officials that are a part of the old regime. And the promise was we're going to clear this out. We're going to do this democratically. And that's why you're seeing this right now.

But it does seem like bad timing with all that Ukraine has to deal with at this particular time. They really have a world crisis on their hands. And now they have a political one -- Michaela?

PEREIRA: What now, Sara? How will things proceed tomorrow in Ukraine?

SIDNER: Well, it will go as planned. The plan is to have elections at the end of October, which is when they are normally scheduled. And there will be an interim system in place. All of the people who are in place, like the prime minister, they will act as the interim prime minister. So still, same government in place trying to run the day- to-day actions of the country, but, of course, now elections start -- election campaigning starts. But, yeah, you're seeing a situation here where they are dealing with quite a lot here in Ukraine -- Michaela?

PEREIRA: Which shows you can plan things and then life happens. When you see what happened in Ukraine, the timing of this now coming into question.

Sara Sidner, we appreciate your reporting from Kiev. Thanks so much. We're going to stick with more developments in Ukraine. A Ukrainian

journalist freelancing for CNN has been detained by pro-Russian separatists. This is Anton Skiba. You're seeing his picture here. We're told he was abducted from outside a hotel in Donetsk in Ukraine two days ago.

Our Ivan Watson is in Donetsk as well. We'll talk to him about where we know this young man is.

Ivan, do we have any sense of where these pro-Russian separatists may be holding him?

IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We haven't gotten any updates despite numerous requests for information throughout the day today, Thursday, from separatist officials. According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, Michaela, quote, "Abductions and detentions of journalists are happening at a dizzying speed in eastern Ukraine." And this young man, this young Ukrainian journalist, Anton Skiba, who had basically worked just one day as a translator and guide for us, helping take us to the site of Malaysia Air flight 17, is one of those journalists. There was a group of separatist gunmen led by a senior separatist official waiting at our hotel when the TV crew came back around this time Tuesday evening, and they detained him. They called him a terrorist and led him away in a car. Now, they have since told us that he was being questioned. The accusation, that he is a Ukrainian agent spy, a very serious one at a time when the Ukrainian army and the separatists are fighting a civil war that has claimed the lives of more than 430 people just in this region of eastern Ukraine.

But a number of international press freedoms and human rights groups, including the U.N., including reporters without borders and the U.S. ambassador in Kiev are all calling for the release of this young man, who, again, we have not heard from. We've been trying to work behind the scenes to secure his release -- Michaela?

PEREIRA: Highlighting the dangers on the ground in that very volatile region.

We urge you, Ivan, and your team to stay safe. Thank you so much for bringing that to us. Stay well.

We're going to take a short break here. Be right back.

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PEREIRA: A different perspective. A German astronaut tweeted this picture of Israel and Gaza from more than 200 miles above the earth. The astronaut calls it, quote, "My saddest photo ever." He says he can actually see explosions and rockets flying over the region, see city lights, but then also there you see some spots that are extra bright.

We have pictures like that to show you because of what happened in the '60s. ISS, the international space station, is a direct descendant of the space race. Here's my segue to tell you to watch CNN's Emmy-nominated series "The

Sixties: The Space Race." Tune in, set your DVR, 9:00 p.m. on CNN this evening. I want to thank you for joining me @THISHOUR and keeping me company

today. I'm Michaela Pereira.

"LEGAL VIEW" starts right now.