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At This Hour

Israel-Hamas Cease-fire Hope Disintegrate; Israel Admits Own Errant Shell Hit U.N. School in Gaza; Ukrainian Troops Seize Flight 17 Crash Site; Tarmac Tiff; Hostility Against Jews Building Europe

Aired July 28, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Explosions rocking the Middle East as plans for an extended cease-fire between Israel and Hamas disintegrate.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN CO-ANCHOR: Developing @THISHOUR, rebels say Ukrainian troops are storming the Flight 17 site wreckage to wrestle control away from separatists.

BERMAN: And a second American has contracted Ebola in what is now the deadliest outbreak of this virus ever.

We are live with all the details @THISHOUR.

Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.

PEREIRA: And I'm Michaela Pereira. It's 11:00 a.m. in the East, 8:00 out West, those stories and much more, right now, @THISHOUR.

BERMAN: I want to get straight to the breaking news out of Gaza this morning. A hospital there has reportedly been hit. Our Ian Lee is in Gaza with the latest.

We have Martin Savidge standing by in Jerusalem, though.

Let's start with Ian in Gaza. What can you tell us about this strike?

IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, the situation is very fluid right now, but what I can tell you is what we're hearing from Al-Aqsa TV. This is a Hamas-run television station. They are saying that 10 people have been killed in an air strike and that 40 people have been injured.

We can't draw many conclusions from this because we have a team on the ground there now, but this is coming from Hamas television.

I've been to Shifa Hospital. This is a large hospital. It's the main hospital here in Gaza. There are many different buildings that make up this compound, but around it, there's also people taking shelter from the fighting here, from the war.

When you look, every little corner, there's a tent, there's a mattress, people sleeping, children running around. So if there is an air strike that hit Shifa Hospital, there's going to be a lot of questions, especially since hospitals are not legitimate targets during a war.

But we can't draw any conclusions yet. I need to stress that enough -- I can't stress that enough because we do not know exactly what is the cause of this explosion

But there are a lot of people there we're looking at pictures that are coming to us live from there, a lot of people injured, a lot of dead, a lot of questions right now, John?

PEREIRA: All right, let's turn to Martin Savidge. He's standing by in Jerusalem, and obviously, Martin, this comes on the heels of the attack on that U.N. school that was being used as a shelter in Gaza.

Has there been any update from the Israeli military on that attack?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's been no update on the current one. We are anticipating that there is going to be a statement from the IDF to either deny or in some way explain what is going on currently in Gaza.

But regarding that event of last Thursday, which was the attack that took place on the United Nations school in which 16 people were killed and hundreds of people were injured, Israel is now saying that, yes, there was one of their mortar rounds that went off course and went into the center, opening compound of that particular school.

Of course, they said they didn't do it intentionally. They also say they have video from a drone that says to them there were no one in the courtyard at the time of that incident, and that as far as they know, nobody was injured or killed.

Of course that goes directly against what witnesses on the ground are reporting, so there is a lot of conflict back and forth whenever you have these explosions, these strikes that take place because both sides begin pointing the finger at the other.

It just increases the level of distrust that is already running extremely high, Michaela.

BERMAN: And of course the incident that we're watching right now, we've been seeing pictures coming from Gaza, from the Hamas-run television network there of the Shifa Hospital complex, Hamas saying it has been struck and that there are several people dead, and Hamas claims that several of them are children.

We do not have this confirmed ourselves. We are headed there to find out what we can.

Ian Lee, who is in Gaza for us, while this is happening, Israel continues to point out the existence of these tunnels dug from Gaza to Israel. I've seen estimates of 31. I heard from an Israeli official this morning who said as many as 36.

These tunnels really have one purpose and one purpose only.

LEE: Well, that's right. They are made to infiltrate into Israel, to send commando units really behind lines and to raise havoc, and they have been used quite successfully that we've seen.

If you compare what this war to the last war where we saw the Israeli military move into Gaza, that was in 2008/2009, 10 soldiers were killed in that war alone. Now there's four times that number.

Hamas has been -- we've seen them use superior tactics than last time. We've seen them use heavier weaponry, more sophisticated weaponry. They were prepared better this time than they were in 2008 and 2009, and that's what's really bogging down the Israelis when they try to move down into the Gaza Strip further.

But Israel has said that during these lulls, during these cease-fires that we have seen, that they are going to continue to target those tunnels, and they see those as one of the major threats that -- one of the major threats to Israel, the other being the rockets, two of the things that they are going after.

BERMAN: Going after these tunnels, Israel says it is worth it, despite whatever international pressure they are now facing.

Our Ian Lee in Gaza, Martin Savidge in Jerusalem, thanks so much.

Coming up, our Wolf Blitzer actually went inside one of these tunnels between Gaza and Israel. He has an amazing report to show you. Looking forward to seeing that.

PEREIRA: That's coming up at 1:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN. Be sure to tune in for that.

Now both Israel and Hamas are ignoring international calls for a cease-fire as the death toll rises on both sides of the conflict. More than a thousand Palestinians have been killed, about three-quarters of them civilians, including more than 200 children.

BERMAN: Israel puts its death toll right now at about 43 troops, two civilians, and an aide worker.

The failure right now to even accept a brief humanitarian pause underscores the difficulties in securing a permanent cease-fire.

I want to bring in right now our military analyst, retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.

Rick, one of issues, the reason they have not been able to reach a compromise, is that neither side seems to think it's in their interests to even inch forward. Israel wants to destroy these tunnels, doesn't want to do anything until these tunnels are gone.

And for Hamas, the fight itself seems to be the success.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: What are the conditions they want for even just a humanitarian pause?

The Israelis say, OK, we'll agree to humanitarian pause, but we're going to stop right where we are, and we're going to continue to look for the tunnels. The Palestinians say, well, we can have a cease-fire, but you have to withdraw back to the border.

Those are two diametrically opposed situations, and neither one are going to happen. So they are talking past each other and not to each other.

PEREIRA: That's been an ongoing issue. We've seen this time and time again.

I want to show you some video and talk back about that U.N. shelter, the school, that was serving as a shelter that was the scene of so much death and destruction, 16 civilians dead in Gaza.

Israel released a video. It's kind of a grainy video here that we're going to show you what the military called an "errant mortar shell," our Ian Lee talking about this a moment ago, hitting what they say they thought was an empty courtyard at the school.

What do you see that we're not seeing when you look at this video?

FRANCONA: This is obviously -- this drone footage, and you can see that round goes in. Now, it comes almost straight down, so that is a mortar. And they say it was an errant mortar round and I have no reason to doubt that.

I mean, it did right square in the middle of that courtyard, though, and they say it was empty. But it looks empty from here, but we don't know what's down there on the ground.

So I think the Israelis would have been better served to have said it was a mistake. It was an errant round. We didn't mean to put it there. And if people were injured or killed, they should just apologize for it.

But to just adamantly dig in and say there were no people there, they don't know that.

BERMAN: If you look at Hamas now, as compared to where Hamas was more than 20 days ago, Hamas was, as an organization, struggling. With all the conflict in the Middle East, they'd lost their allies and Egypt, and Syria was no longer paying attention to them because they have their own problems.

Now it seems in some ways they're stronger than before, and this presents a problem when Israel deals with them as there tries to be these negotiations to settle this. They're not negotiating directly.

There was a key U.S. official, a Defense Intelligence Agency head, Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, who essentially said, you know, at this point, maybe Israel needs to be careful, because if they damage Hamas too much, something even worse could spring up in their place, something like ISIS.

FRANCONA: The animosity is so great that something will rise up. Will it be Islamic jihads revisited? Will it be stronger than or worse than Hamas? But it goes beyond the borders of Gaza. What we're seeing throughout the region is this increased recruitment in all of the jihadi groups. ISIS, the Syrian rebels, al Qaeda, they are all gaining from this, because they see Hamas standing up to Israel. If you want to unite the Sunni extremists, all you have to do is bring up Israel.

And it's interesting, just overnight, the character of all of the social media changed, and now it's us and Gaza. Everybody is now united with Gaza. I think that there will be repercussions for this not just for Israel but for all of us as we have to deal with this jihadi surge.

PEREIRA: The question is how to deal with that effectively and without further violence. That's another big question.

FRANCONA: And I just don't see any hope right now for what's going on in Gaza, because the Israelis have -- as you said earlier, they are willing to take the international condemnation as long as they can get into those tunnels and destroy those and hopefully destroy the rocket arsenal.

I don't think they have the capabilities to do either in the time they have allotted.

PEREIRA: Colonel Rick Francona, appreciate you being here again.

BERMAN: Stand by. We're going to talk to you in a little bit about some other subjects.

A fight for the control of the Flight 17 crash site in Ukraine as investigators really have to turn back on their way trying to get there, and then there's this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your attitude is really something, sir. We're out here on Mike. Good morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Settle down, captain happy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Yeah, you heard it there, tense moment between a Delta Airlines pilot and an air traffic controller in Atlanta.

You are going to want to hear it again. It's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: @THISHOUR, pro-Russian rebels say Ukraine's military has stormed the Flight 17 wreckage site and is now in control of part of the area. We're still waiting to hear a comment from Kiev and other international investigators.

BERMAN: While this is happening, another valuable day is slipping away from investigators. In fact, it actually slipped away. Dutch and Australian experts were headed to the Flight 17 crash site. They had to turn back because of the heavy fighting. The team was hoping to recover more of the wreckage after they negotiated with both pro-Russian rebel and Ukrainian forces, and they thought -- they thought they would have safe access, but that apparently did not happen and will not happen today.

And the fighting it seems could only get worse before it gets better, Ukraine now saying Russia sending more troops to towns near the border.

Retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona back with us, as is safety analyst David Soucie. Rick, I want to start with you, we're hearing that the Ukrainian forces, the government forces, have begun to take control, if not of the crash site itself, part of it, Some of those key areas there. Will that be helpful to investigators?

FRANCONA: I think so because they have a vested interest in this being exposed as something that the pro-Russian separatists did and not them. So they are going to want to have the investigators in there to back up their side of the story, which says it wasn't us, it was these guys who had access to a Russian SA-11 and not us.

PEREIRA: It seems like time is of the essence. David, when you look at the fact that we're 11 days post the downing of MH-17. How compromised is this site? We don't know, in those 11 days, what further molestation of the site, if you will, of this crime scene, deemed the largest one in the world, right now.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: I think the worst of the crime scene damage is over right now. The investigators --

PEREIRA: But then the elements and all that other --

SOUCIE: Yes, that is true. I spoke to investigators yesterday. This is really quite a setback with Ukraine. They had a written agreement, Malaysians did, with the rebel to have to go in there and have access to the site and now Ukraine has come in and said no we want access to the site. It is almost as if they are all trying to do the right thing but the timing is wrong. It is really to coming together.

BERMAN: Yes, Rick, what do you make of this? Because the investigators, they had a deal with both the pro-Russian rebels and Ukrainian government for safe passage. It didn't happen and it may very well be the Ukrainian government forces, the ones that the U.S. is more or less supportive of, if not supporting directly, that have been more of the aggressors today and over the last 24 hours. Should these investigators trust these guarantees?

FRANCONA: Well, the fact -- word has to get down to the lowest level and that could be the problem. I think there's just a whole lot of confusion out there. Remember, this is a war zone. There's active fighting going on and they have just push the separatists out of this area and they are trying to push them back up toward an enclave near the Russian border. They are probably still moving and I'm hoping they just haven't gotten the word down that that particular sector yet. And when they do, then the investigators will get back in -- or get in there finally.

PEREIRA: And you say there are so many different factions among the separatists. It makes it very difficult to get communication in and clear consensus. So David, once they get in, because we know these inspectors are going to try again and they are going to try until they get in their safely, that's a concern in and itself. But once they can get to work, how quickly do they need to act? And how long could that potentially take?

SOUCIE: They need to act very quickly. They need to focus on the front of the aircraft, the need to look at what the transponder was -- the encoding of the transponder at the time of the accident. They also need to go to the west site, where there are bodies. I'm looking at satellite images right now of areas that have not even been tread upon. So those area's need to go. That is where there's still some human deceased on those areas, so they really need to focus on those and get those deceased out. And then get a piece of that aircraft, a piece that shows shrapnel that's been transferred on to the aluminum and that is the hard evidence that they will need to prove this case.

PEREIRA: Is that a case of hours or days?

SOUCIE: It should be just a case of maybe a day or two to do that. But ideally, you would want at least a week there.

PEREIRA: They are not going to have that.

BERMAN: They are not going to get a week. And, you know, you say they want to focus on the front of the aircraft, that's the area the rebels were going through with chainsaws a week ago. Who knows what they are going to find when they get there. David Soucie, Rick Francona, great to have you with us, appreciate it.

PEREIRA: Let's talk about, as an airline passenger, you know, you kind of want the pilot and the people in the air traffic control tower to kind have a good working relationship, right? Listen to this little exchange that happened recently between a controller and a Delta pilot in Atlanta.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE, CONTROL TOWER: I don't have an attitude. I'm just saying it looks like you joined Lima instead of Mike, and I'm just trying to correct you before you stay in Lima.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: PILOT: OK, cause, my god, there's another plane out there, it's like six miles away. Your attitude is really something, sir. We're out of here on Mike. Good morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE, PILOT NO. 2: Settle down, captain happy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: You heard a third voice there. Another pilot was getting in on the conversation too. Delta says customer safety and service were never in question. It is investigating the tarmac tiff further. My opinion of this, is we work in a business where a lot of things are said in raised tones and four letter words spoken form the control room.--

PEREIRA: Never here.

BERMAN: I do not care what the attitude is in the workplace as long as the --

PEREIRA: Right, end results. My god man, there's another plane on the tarmac, that should be the biggest concern.

BERMAN: This is not about bruised feelings in cockpits or air traffic control.

Ahead for us @THISHOUR, hostility against Jews building in Europe as protests from Paris to Berlin rage on. Should world leaders now step in to do something about this?

PEREIRA: We're also watching the Ebola outbreak as it spreads in Africa. Another American aide worker has been infected. We're going to tell you what you need to know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Concerning sights there. Protesters from Paris to Berlin have been marching in the streets against Israel actions in Gaza. In some cases, those protests have turned nasty, targeting all Jews. In Paris, protesters have attacked synagogues. They have looted shops owned by Jews chanting, death to the Jews.

BERMAN: In some of the protests in German there have been people calling for Jews to be gassed, clearly a reference to the holocaust there.

PEREIRA: German officials are so concerned about this anti-Semitism at these protests they have actually sent 1,000 officers to monitor a pro-Gaza demonstration that included anti-Semitic slogans.

BERMAN: Max Foster joins us now from London. You know, Max, obviously there's a difference between being anti-Israel or against Israel's actions in Gaza and being against Jews in totality. But some of the lines seem to be getting blurred here.

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They do. The politicians are desperately trying to balance freedom of speech and criminal behavior. There are acceptable demonstrations, anti-war demonstrations, pro- Palestinian demonstrations taking place. But on the fringes, as you say, there is some particular nasty language coming out, some violence and there's a great deal of concern that this could escalate. And it is, increasingly, a pan-European problem.

So last week, we had the foreign ministers of France, Germany, Italy, issuing a joint statement saying they are going to do all they can to combat this anti-Semitism. And just today the chair of the all party parliamentary group against anti-Semitism here in the U.K., where there have been lot's of incidents as well, less violent incidents, but incidents never the less, issued a statement saying, it's to our collective shame that anti-Semitic sentiments have been proliferating throughout the U.K. and Europe in recent weeks. We must learn some lessons to insure that the middle-east and tensions there don't play into the streets at home.

PEREIRA: So, Max, The question is, we hear these statements and that is important, but what is actually being done? Anything substantive? Any action being taken?

FOSTER: They launch an inquiry in the U.K., a parliamentary inquiry. And that is due to the complications here. Because actually finding an incident and nailing it to anti-Semitism can be a problem. But the monitoring group, Community Securities Trust, they said that the number of anti-Semitism attacks and incidents, verbal or violent, have doubled over the last month. They have notice an increase in Muslim anti-Semitism. So the attacks being carried out by people who appear to be Muslim. That's a very worrisome trend here in the U.K.

In France, where the incidents are tougher and more violent, they are actually banning demonstrations. That is causing an issue amongst libertarians, who are very concerned that people should be able to demonstrate and because of anti-Semitism they are not able to.

BERMAN: Max Foster for us, covering this in London. Thanks so much for being with us, appreciate it.

PEREIRA: Take a short break. Ahead though, another American worker in Africa testing positive for the deadly Ebola virus. We're going to take a look at how it happened and we'll ask the question could this virus continue to spread?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)