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Dr. Drew
Vanished Teen Reappears After Nine Months; Police Arrest Nathaniel Kirby; Thirteen-Year-Old Terrorize Town with Murder Threats on Facebook; Criminal Couple Ransacks Home, Beats 80-Year-Old Man; Naked Hamburger Thieves
Aired July 28, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, missing girl mystery. A teen vanished. Gone for nine months, then walks back into her desperate
mother`s life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZENYA HERNANDEZ, MOTHER OF ABIGAIL HERNANDEZ: The majority of people somehow believe that she was pregnant. She was not. She did not run away.
I firmly believe that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, what happened?
Plus, a whole town terrified by threats on Facebook. The behavior bureau wants to know. Could a 13-year-old girl be responsible for this? Let`s
get started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Good evening. My co-host Samantha Schacher and coming up we will hear from the teen who mysteriously disappeared nine months ago.
HOST OF "POP TRIGGER": And nine months, Dr. Drew, is raising a lot of eyebrows on Twitter.
PINSKY: The human gestational period of nine months. What a coincidence. But first, that 15-year-old girl suddenly turns up in her hometown wearing
the very same clothes that she was wearing the day she vanished. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CORRESPONDENT: Young Abigail Hernandez, a daughter, a sister, a freshman at Kennett High School. The teen was last seen in early
October after leaving Kennett High School. She never made it home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CORRESPONDENT (1): Abigail`s mother reported the teen missing nine months ago when she was not home after school.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZENYA HERNANDEZ: Abby, we miss you. We truly, truly, truly miss you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CORRESPONDENT (1): Abigail`s face was plastered on billboards all over New England. In December police said the family
received a letter from Abigail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (2): Missing teen Abby Hernandez returning home to her mother. It came as a surprise even to investigators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (3): Now, 15-year-old Abigail was reunited with her family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (2): Officials described Abby as being in good condition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (3): There is no official word on where Abby has been or how she managed to return home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (4): This was a 14-year-old who went missing for nine months. She did not do this on her own.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID RUOFF, FMR NEW HAMPSHIRE ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Someone that had means to help keep her out of the spotlight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, police have arrested this man, 34-year-old Nathaniel Kirby. He is charged with, quote, "Felony kidnapping for knowingly confining
Abigail Hernandez with a purpose to commit offense against her." Joining us to discuss, Evy Poumpouras, former special agent with the secret
service, Vanessa Barnett hiphollywood.com and Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com. Mark, do these charges make sense to you?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Of course, yes. First of all, when you confine someone against their will, that is kidnapping all day
long. And, what they are saying is it was in furtherance of some other offense. Tragically and unfortunately, I have to -- again, I have no
inside information, but I have to believe it was perhaps to sexually assault her.
PINSKY: Well --
EIGLARSH: That is my concern.
PINSKY: Evy, do you have any thoughts that perhaps she went willingly, went on her own and then somehow she was duplicitous in this, not that a
14-year-old could ever be, let`s make that clear. But, somehow, it was not just this guy like physically abducting her.
EVY POUMPOURAS, ON-AIR SECURITY AND INVESTIGATIVE ANALYST: Right. Because of her age, Dr. Drew, it does not matter whether she went wilfully or not,
either way he is going to get charged if he did play a role. But, I do think that there is some wilful participation on her part.
And, there was something a little bit uncomfortable as far as what the mother stated. She said when she did her interview, and this is kind of
what raised my red flag, she said the majority of people somehow believe that she was pregnant. She was not. She did not run away.
I firmly believe that. OK. I firmly believe that. It is either she did or she did not. It is not what you believe. So, there is hesitation on
the mother`s part. She also says as for her knowing the individual, she should refer to that person as a kidnapper. I firmly -- she says I firmly
believe that she did not know the individual. So, she is not really committed. She is saying I believe this, hence there is some doubt in
question.
PINSKY: Not only that, Sam, if I were the parent, I would be freaking out. My daughter -- my 14-year-old daughter disappears and she has been
abducted. She is sending me letters from her captor. I would be totally beside myself. I would not be using the kind of language Evy just
described.
SCHACHER: I agree with you 100 percent. But, there is one part in the girl`s press release that she said -- I feel I have Evy`s hat on. So, I am
going to read from her press release -- But, in her press release, she says, "I believe in my heart that your hopes and prayers played a major
role in my release."
Release indicates that she was held captive against her will. So, to that -- It also lends to the fact that she was pale. She has lost a lot of
weight. She was in the same clothes that she left the day that she was abducted, possibly. Plus, if she was just pregnant, would not she be not
so underweight?
PINSKY: Well, no, not if she was not properly managed and was hiding out. Vanessa, do not you think?
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: They sound like spin artists to me. First of all, to tell me that, "Oh, thank you for this release." The
wording of that was very suspect.
PINSKY: Yes. You are right, Vanessa. I agree.
BARNETT: It sound as if it was from her. It was not from her. Secondly, we have the mother saying that she was pale --
PINSKY: Wait a second, everybody.
BARNETT: No, no, let me finish. You have the mother saying she was pale and underweight, but you have the officer saying that she was healthy and
she looked well. Something ain`t clean in the water.
PINSKY: All right, Mark -- But, at least it is raising issues for all of us. Do you understand?
BARNETT: Exactly.
EIGLARSH: Yes, raising issues is wonderful but just for a moment. Let`s say she is truly a victim. She did not go willingly. She was sexually
abused, and everybody is holding back a lot of detail because that is what you are supposed to do in an active investigation of an abhorrent crime.
See, the fact that we do not know is a good thing. It means police are not releasing information. That does not mean that they --
BARNETT: But, they know enough to arrest him, and so you are saying that there is possible sexual assault. Would not they have arrested him for
sexual assault if it happened? And, I am looking at it as a viewer.
Yes, it is unfortunate. And, we know that this girl, whether she walked away willingly or not, that there was a crime committed and she is a
victim. There is no conversation about that.
PINSKY: Mark -- hang on, Vanessa. Mark, would not they have to collect that data to figure out if there was a sexual assault?
EIGLARSH: If there is evidence of a sexual assault, they can always add that charge later. Right now they are still investigating, but at a
minimum they have concluded without a doubt that she was held against her will and it was for the purpose to commit some offense. What offense would
that be other in my opinion than sexual assault?
SCHACHER: Right. And, Dr. Drew, how come that none -- if she went willingly, how come none of her neighbors ever saw her going in and out.
Nobody had any idea that she was there.
PINSKY: As far as we know. Evy, last thoughts?
POUMPOURAS: Look. I do agree, but she is a minor.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: So, whether she went willingly or not --
PINSKY: Right. It does not matter.
POUMPOURAS: -- he is going to be charged at the end of the day. It does not matter. He is 34 years old. She is 15.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: I mean what is her mindset?
PINSKY: Yes. Exactly. That is what I want to get into with the Behavior Bureau. And, later, I want to talk about an 80-year-old guy who admits
shooting and killing an alleged intruder, and he says he has no regrets. We are back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZENYA HERNANDEZ: I believe you are out there somewhere watching and listening to me right now. I miss you and love you so much more than you
can imagine. I feel your absence every day. You belong at home with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam and our Behaviour Bureau, Erica America, Psychotherapist, Radio personality; Judy Ho, Clinical Psychologist,
Professor at Pepperdine University and Spirit Clanton, host of the new show, "The Daily Help Line."
And, that was Abby`s mom pleading for her daughter`s return, a month after she disappeared. Nine months after she was lost. Abby was found walking
down the very same road where she had last been seen before she disappeared.
Erica, I have a couple of things. I gave a couple of problems. I do not know if you were bothered by the same things I am. Like I said, if I were
that mom pleading for my daughter after she had been gone a month, I would be freaking out and I wonder if you suspect she knew this guy?
ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I first want to say. It is amazing and a miracle that she returned home --
PINSKY: Yes.
AMERICA: -- because we know what happens with these missing person cases. Most of the time they end up murdered. So, she is back. I do not think
there`s a point --
PINSKY: But, Erica -- Erica, I am going to stop you. Erica -- Erica -- Is not -- that is pretty common knowledge. So, is not that the reason why the
mom should have been losing her mind as opposed to sort of having a firm belief that she was out there and she knew where she was? You know what I
am saying? It seemed very contained while it should have been --
AMERICA: But, you are saying it is a big conspiracy or something?
PINSKY: No. I do not know.
AMERICA: Because to me, it does not matter whether she met the guy online or whether some guy took her and plucked her out of nowhere. She was 14.
It is kidnapping. It does not really matter. What my thoughts are now how do we take care of this family and of this girl who has probably severely
been traumatized and they really need to be in therapy this entire time as we unfold what exactly happens.
PINSKY: Of course. Of course. Spirit, what do you say about this?
SPIRIT CLANTON, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, the whole thing is bizarre. That is what I say, that she disappeared. She is walking back down the
same street. She is wearing the same clothes that she left in, and even that they call that -- the pleading that her mother was discussing. Did
not it almost sound like she was talking to her daughter?
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: Honey, I wish that you would come home. You know we love you. You know I am here.
PINSKY: Spirit -- Spirit, if she had said, I want you to leave that guy that you think is telling you all the things you want to hear -- you know
what I mean? If she would thrown that in there it would have made perfect sense with what she was saying as opposed to, "My god, my daughter is
missing. Somebody is going to kill her any day. We have to get her back. Anybody that knows anything" --
CLANTON: Thank you.
PINSKY: -- grab her, tackle her, kill the guy, whatever you got to do.
CLANTON: -- Her friends. Exactly, Dr. Drew, exactly.
PINSKY: Sam, you say no.
SCHACHER: No. I disagree, Dr. Drew. Listen, I am on the complete opposite side of the spectrum as you. I think that this girl was kidnapped
against her will. I think that is why she chose the word released in her press statement and I think it is horrible of all of us to be sitting here
saying that she may have been pregnant. She may have left willingly. She may have just up and ran away from home.
I am talking about people online. I am generally speaking, when this girl could have been completely abused and in a house of horrors for nine months
for all we know.
PINSKY: Well, I think Mark Eiglarsh infected your mind -- infected both of you for that matter.
SCHACHER: On the break, yes.
PINSKY: But, Judi, let`s get to this. Let`s talk about a 14 and 15-year- old brain versus even a 16-year-old brain. It is a very different brain. These frontal lobes that I always talk about, very undeveloped in a 14, 15-
year-old, and that is why they are so carefully protected by the law.
So, Judi, talk about that for a second that whatever went on with this girl, that guy, although we are speculating that we do not fully understand
what happened here. That guy is the responsible party here.
JUDI HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. In a 13, 14, even a 15-year-old, the executive functions, that frontal lobe you were
just talking about is very under developed. They are not able to really make rational decisions all the time. They are very easily influenced. It
is hard for them to plan ahead and problem solve for themselves, which is why the law protects them so well.
Now, one of my concerns is that, if this girl was taken against her will, does she has developed feelings and caring and empathy for here captor.
The syndrome that we know of as --
PINSKY: Stockholm --
HO: Stockholm Syndrome --
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: And, it is very, very easy for especially a 14 to 15-year-old to develop this. Why?
PINSKY: Yes. That is right.
HO: Because that is their defense mechanism against trauma. So, they are going to bond with this person and feel empathy for this person to survive
the trauma she went through.
PINSKY: And, yet still in spite of that strategy to survive the trauma, the experience is still shattering.
HO: Absolutely, and so it is going to affect her attachment going forward. It is going to even affect her loving feelings towards her actual family.
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: She may become very upset at them at some point and actually defend this captor.
PINSKY: Abby posted this on a website that was called bring Abby home. Quote, "I wish that I could personally thank everyone who looked for me.
My gratitude is beyond words. It is an incredible feeling to be home and I believe in my heart that your hopes and prayers played a major role in my
release. Thank you all for the welcome home."
Spirit, that quote sort of goes out to what Judi was saying, maybe she was suffering from sort of a Stockholm Syndrome and now she has gone home and
woken up to what was going on. That would also explain why the mom was trying to sort of get through to her. Is there anything in there?
CLANTON: Could be or it could be a situation. OK, now you are home and I have said I believe this, I believe that, so now we have to get all of our
ducks in a row. We have to present a united front. We are a family. We are back together. This was not you leaving -- This was you, you know, not
just leaving because you wanted to.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: Everybody has to be on the same page here. It is going to be very interesting the way this unfolds.
PINSKY: Erica, you might give your last thought because you look kind of upset.
AMERICA: Yes -- no, I am just saying no matter what it is, the fact is she is a 14-year-old girl.
PINSKY: Yes.
AMERICA: Whether she, you know, fell in love with some guy on Facebook, or on Tinder, illegally -- it is wrong. She does not have the ability to
decide to go away with someone. So, I think she was kept against her will.
PINSKY: There is no disagreement, but it is just interesting how there is some of the complexities to this story that still need to be explained.
All right, guys. Thank you.
Next up, a 13-year-old is arrested. This is even a younger kid. Police say this girl terrorized an entire town on Facebook. One of her alleged
victims, a young guy is here. And, later why did two naked guys and one in his underwear -- here they are. Why did they steal 60 hamburgers? We will
show you the video after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Screen grab shows the girl saying she was going to kill everyone in Splendora and quote, "Go down with Christian
Beasley." Montgomery County Law Enforcement also took the threat seriously.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Very seriously. It is something that we do not take lightly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Reaching out to Facebook in an effort to trace the source. They say Facebook resisted, but eventually released the
information. And, late Sunday they made an arrest. A 13-year-old girl. The 13-year-old is charged with making a terroristic threat, a third-degree
felony.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Evy, Vanessa and Mark. Police say a 13-year-old girl terrorized her entire town with Facebook messages threatening to kill
everyone using a fake name and a fake photo. She is accused of targeting a classmate who had been battling cancer.
She posted on his wall, quote, "You should have died." She is charged with making terroristic threats, that, of course, a felony. Evy, my question is
on this story did law enforcement go too far or should every online threat be taken very seriously?
POUMPOURAS: I think in this situation they did not go too far. She made several threats, threats to kill people in the town. You did not know at
the time who it was coming from, and it is irrelevant. She is 13 years old. She is still at an age where she could have executed this, so to
speak, if she wanted to.
How many times do we talk on the show about young people who commit certain crimes that are egregious? Here you go. They did not go too far. They
did the right thing.
PINSKY: Yes. Mark, I have to agree with Evy. So, many times we are all saying see something, do something, take action when there is -- where
there is smoke, go after it before some catastrophe occurs.
EIGLARSH: Yes. I have defended many teens who have been arrested before on your show and in real life, and I said, you know, law enforcement went
too far. This is not one of them.
PINSKY: Good.
EIGLARSH: I do believe she should have been arrested. To send a message both to her and others not to do this. However, I would ask, could you
hold up your little brain, Drew?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. You got it. My brain, yes.
EIGLARSH: If I go to court for her and if you would not, run your fingers over that frontal lobe.
PINSKY: This part. This part here.
EIGLARSH: OK. Exhibit A --
PINSKY: You can hand the guy on the stand talking about the frontal lobes, yes, yes.
EIGLARSH: Yes. That is how I would defend her. I would go to court and say, "OK, she was arrested. She did something abhorrent, but that portion
right there, not fully developed. That is why she does what she does. So, give her some type of counselling, probation. Do not lock her up and throw
away the key. Let`s help this girl. She is troubled."
PINSKY: Sam or as I now call you Mark Eiglarsh, Jr.
SCHACHER: Or Evy Poumpouras, Jr. I feel like I can be a like a little hybrid between the two of them. Mark, you know exactly how to excite Dr.
Drew. Just bring up the brain. But, I agree with you, guys. I mean look at Elliott Rogers and the Santa Barbara shooting, you know?
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: He clearly on his social media account, he showed his motives and he foreshadowed this mass shooting. And, that is the world that we
live in today with all these mass shootings occurring left and right, we have to take her threat seriously.
And, yes, she is 13 years old, and she did not carry it out, but she also disrupted a lot of people`s lives. The police officers who were not on
duty. They had to begin work because they had to go look for her.
The police officers who were on duty who had to work overnight shifts and then the community that was afraid to go outside because of this violence
that was supposedly going to ensue.
PINSKY: Evy?
POUMPOURAS: Look, the other thing, too, is that this is kind of well executed, premeditated. She created a fake name to use online. She did
this over a period of time. So, you kind of see this gradual progression so to speak.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
POUMPOURAS: This was not just like overnight something she just snapped and decided to do.
CLANTON: Yes. But she also is -- like you said, 13 years old and on top of that, let`s look at the bigger picture. Hurt people hurt people. This
young lady, there is something going on in her home life where she cannot live with her parents. She is living with family members and she is crying
out for help.
She is putting these things online. And, let`s be honest, 13-year-olds, they put crazy stuff online. I read some of the comments on Instagram and
on Twitter that are baffling; but, yes, you take her into the police station but that is where this lesson needs to end because there is
something much more that we need to be focusing on in this girl`s life. Like I am happy, you know, she did not blow up the town, but let`s focus on
how we can make this girl better.
PINSKY: Well, I will bring a Behavior Bureau in, in a minute.
EIGLARSH: She makes a very good point.
PINSKY: Absolutely. But, Evy does, too, in terms of there being enough frontal lobe function to be able to premeditate whether what she did.
SCHACHER: And, you have to set a precedent at the end of the day. We cannot have a bunch of --
EIGLARSH: No. No. We are talking about -- We are solely --
CLANTON: Where are these precedents when the boy in Santa Barbara killed so many people and went driving around. Where are the precedents there is?
SCHACHER: Well, let`s start now.
PINSKY: Mark.
EIGLARSH: We are only talking about mitigation.
PINSKY: Evy?
EIGLARSH: Mitigation. And, like she said, the cancer metaphorically is that this girl was hurt somehow. The symptom is, surprise, surprise, she
is acting out. Let`s find out why she`s hurt. Who did this to her and why.
PINSKY: Evy?
POUMPOURAS: Look, I get all of that and agree with that, but at the end of the day there should be the law is there to show there are consequences for
your actions. You cannot go online. You cannot make random threats.
EIGLARSH: Agree. Agree.
POUMPOURAS: There needs to be a consequence. She should be punished. Yes, give her help but you need to punish her according to the law --
PINSKY: And, Mark, there was another piece of this that kind of bothered me, that the girl`s -- that the details about the girl`s account from
Facebook, the site apparently wanted more proof that the threat was legitimate. They had trouble getting the information to law enforcement.
The Facebook is quoted as saying, quote, "In this case we reviewed the matter and asked the police to send us legal process or a court order for
the requested information." Is that the way we are going to have to be dealing with these things that have imminent potential?
EIGLARSH: Yes. The answer is yes. You have a subpoena. You get a subpoena and then they respond. That is how it works.
PINSKY: Evy?
EIGLARSH: That is what I would advise them if they were my clients.
POUMPOURAS: There are certain situations under exigent circumstances or emergency circumstances where you can bypass this type of thing, a court
order, even Miranda rights. When you have an emergency situation where there could be imminent threat or harm, law enforcement is allowed by the
law to circumvent this process. So, I think this is where they kind of got into it with Facebook.
PINSKY: OK. Next up, the mother of one of the targeted children is here with me and her son I think will be as well. I would love to speak to this
young man. They want to meet with the suspect. And, later, 60 hamburgers are stolen, but why naked? We will get into that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: The private message came out of the blue last Thursday night telling 13-year-old Christian Beasley, he should have
died.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMY GASKAMP, MOTHER OF CHRISTIAN BEASLEY: It made him sick all day. He was sick that night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTE: The next day his mother learned her son`s classmates had received similar messages.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GASKAMP: I did not know it was a 13-year-old or if it was, you know, a grown adult, but it was real. To me it was real. My son being sick
because of it was real. These kids all commenting on his Facebook, that was real.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Late Sunday they made an arrest. A 13-year- old girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GASKAMP: He put a post last night when he found out they captured her that he could rest now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and our Behavior Bureau, Erica, Judi and Spirit. Police say a 13-year-old used a fake Facebook account to torment her
classmate who has cancer. Her post escalated into threats to kill everyone in her town. Erica, our Twitter community though has been saying this is a
parenting issue. Why is this more, and do you feel the consequences will really probably change this girl`s behavior?
AMERICA: OK. Well, I want to say I think that everyone was doing great. I love the consequences because this is a serious issue, especially today
with social media having such a big part in our lives. And, people need to know if you misuse it, if you lie, if you threaten to kill people, you are
going to be brought to justice, it is that simple.
And, here if she had sent a letter out to somebody saying, "I am going to kill you or you should be dead on this day," they would get in trouble the
same way. So, I think that it was absolutely not a parenting issue. This is something that is a new issue because of where we are in 2014, our lives
are different than they were, say 15 years ago and there needs to be some precedents put in place.
And, I do not even think this is an example being made of her. She made herself an example by doing it. You lose your right to privacy. You lose
your rights to do any of that when you threaten to kill someone. So, of course, yes, after the fact, after she is punished, she needs to have some
type of treatment. And, we got to figure out what is going on with her; but, I think it was Evy who said she needs to be prosecuted by the law
first.
PINSKY: So, let the Ax fall now. Spirit, I see you nodding vigorously.
CLANTON: That is right. High-five, girlfriend. I am so with her on this. If this was parenting issue, her parents would have parented her. She is
not even living with her parents at this point.
PINSKY: Right. Right.
CLANTON: She probably has some type of conduct disorder, which Dr. Drew, you know better than anybody. We could be looking at antisocial
personality disorder later on down the line.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: She said she was going to kill the whole town. Facebook, I am glad they got it together although delayed, and everybody else, kudos for
stepping up and stepping in. Who knows where this could have gone?
PINSKY: And, Judy --
CLANTON: Who knows?
PINSKY: Yes, absolutely, Spirit. And, Judy, Spirit has an excellent point here is that either this is something, again, the brain, the psychopathy of
a genetic disorder or an antisocial personality disorder related to the environment she is raised in but you say treatment right now could stop the
progression to a fixed personality disorder.
JUDY HO, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST: That is right, Dr. Drew. I cannot stress how much time is of the essence right now for this 13-year-old. Right now
is the critical period for more advanced moral development. So, while the consequences are helpful, that is a lower level moral development. It is
kind of like trying to do something or not do something to avoid punishment and to get rewards.
What we need to work on for this person to become a good productive citizen is to help them with this advanced moral development, which is happening
right now at the age 13. So, she does not get treatment right away and start to learn more about this advanced motor development to see if she
actually can be a candidate for a productive citizen later, then we are really --
PINSKY: And, let me put a word that people need to develop. That is a high order human experience that is again, I do not want to hold my brain
up a third time tonight, but it is a certain area of the brain --
SCHACHER: You love it.
PINSKY: -- singular orbital frontal system, which is underneath here -- I cannot quite point at it, but is empathy. The ability to understand other
people have agency and other people have feelings. And, her consequences harm other people.
Now, speaking of the harm she has done, on the phone I have Amy Gaskamp. Her son Christian Beasley, he was the one targeted on Facebook. Christian,
of course, has been battling a cancer, Leukemia. Christian, are you on the phone with me?
CHRISTIAN BEASLEY, TARGETED ON FACEBOOK: Yes, sir.
PINSKY: Thank you for joining us, Christian. You have been very brave with all this. How are you doing now?
BEASLEY: I am really good. I got 20 more months of chemo.
PINSKY: Great. And, you know it is a treatable condition, my friend. So, hang in there and then that will be the end of it. Put it behind you and
get on with your life. And, why do you think this girl targeted you? Do you know her? Did you guys have a fight?
BEASLEY: Well, I really do not know her because she made a fake account and she -- I cannot tell who it is because they blurred her face on
television. So, I mean I have no clue and I cannot figure out a way how to find out who.
PINSKY: Once you do, let`s say she is listening tonight, Christian. Do you have a message for her?
BEASLEY: I just want her to, you know, talk to her face to face and see why, you know, she would do that and I am not like that kind of person who
just wants to get back at a person like that. I just want to try to help the person.
PINSKY: Help her get better. You are making all my panelists tear up here, my dear. Mom, are you there with me, too?
GASKAMP: I am. He is making me tear up, too.
PINSKY: He is a great guy. Well done, mom, speaking of the parenting which we started out this conversation. Kudos to mom here. Now, mom,
school starts soon enough here maybe within a month or so. Is Christian fearful about running into this person or if he does not figure out who it
is?
GASKAMP: The only thing we have discussed is the fact that maybe he will be walking down the hallway and, you know, she might walk right by him and
he does not have a clue that it is her. He do not know that, you know, she is the person that was behind the computer or whether or not there is more
than one kid, who knows? But, it is a little bit -- it is going to be an uneasy feeling knowing he is going to walk down the hallway and she could
be right there beside him.
PINSKY: Sam, did you want to ask Amy something?
SCHACHER: Yes. Amy, did you -- OK, so, Christian, did he tell you that this online bullying was happening or did you monitor his social media?
How did you find out?
BEASLEY: How did I find out --
SCHACHER: About the threat.
DR.DREW: This is for mom.
SCHACHER: For mom, yes.
PINSKY: Amy, did Christian tell you or were you monitoring?
GASKAMP: Yes. Absolutely, I monitor and so does his dad actually, and he just actually went to bed and he said, "Mom, look at this text I just got."
It is like 11 something at night. It is like what in the world? So, I got his phone and I told him to take a snap picture of it and I reposted it on
his Facebook, and I said whoever is friends with this person, either delete her or delete Christian off of your Facebook.
And, before I even got up the next morning, which he had been up sick all night long throwing up. I do not know if it was his nerves, his medicine,
it was really disheartening for him, but there was a slew of comments, a ton of kids coming out of the woodwork stating that this person had
messaged them, to go hang themselves. If they could not do it, she would do it for them. It was a terrible list of things.
And, a lot of moms that private messaged me, they had no idea that even their child had been bullied by this person. So, it opened a lot of kids`
eyes and it opened a lot of parents` eyes, and you just cannot take any chances and kids have learned a lesson in Splendora from this.
PINSKY: Well, I think also a lot of moms learned a little lesson on social media management.
GASKAMP: Exactly.
PINSKY: Good job, Amy for doing that.
GASKAMP: Exactly. I thought at first I overdid it. I thought at first I was blowing it out of proportion because she was 13 and then the more that
I learned all these other kids that she had talked to like this, I was like maybe I did the right thing here. It was sad to see this little girl
walking into the police station, but at the same time something is not right, and she needs some help.
PINSKY: Last word, Judy, you shrugged your shoulders there when she said it was sad to see the little girl walking into the police station. It is
sad, but it is what had to happen.
DR. HO: Absolutely. Amy, you did absolutely the right thing. And, you know, I think that your son actually demonstrates that advanced moral
development we were talking about.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
DR. HO: He is so forgiving and wanting to help her.
PINSKY: Yes. Exactly. Well, thank you, guys. Thank you for doing what you have done and thank you for joining us this evening. We really
appreciate it. Next up, an armed homeowner.
This is another guy we will debate about whether this is advanced moral development or perhaps some -- a block in moral development. A homeowner
fights back against two alleged intruders. They did not count on this 80- year-old gentleman having a gun and shooting. We will talk about that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: An 80-year-old man says he arrived home to find this couple stealing from him. The duo reportedly beat him, threw him
to the ground, then continued to ransack his home. Despite his injuries, police say the elderly man got a gun and fired shots at the suspects as
they fled. The woman was struck twice and died at the scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Evy and Spirit and welcoming for the first time to our program, T.V. Host Danielle Robay. You were tweeting out there like
crazy about this story. The homeowner told KNBC in Los Angeles that before he killed the suspect, she yelled out to him that she was pregnant. Take a
look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM GREER, 80-YEAR-OLD HOMEOWNER: She said, "Do not shoot me. I am pregnant. I am going to have a baby" and I shot her anyway. I shot her in
the back twice. She is dead and it is all her fault, but he got away. When the time comes to defend yourself, you best do something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He says he has no regrets. The coroner tells us she was not pregnant. Spirit, your reaction?
CLANTON: He said when the time comes, you best do something, and you know what? I am so sorry, but I am with him. They got into his house, not
once, twice, three. This is the fourth time this has happened. And, I am not saying it is them, but they did him harm. He did what he had to do.
PINSKY: Danielle says no.
DANIELLE ROBAY, T.V. HOST: I completely disagree. I think, first of all, her talking about being pregnant is completely irrelevant to the case. It
is about imminent danger. So, she was fleeing the scene and he shot her. At this point, it becomes a case for judge and jury. If we all took
revenge into our own hands, we would be living in a very dangerous society.
PINSKY: All right. Sam, what do you say?
SCHACHER: How do you know if he did not feel threatened? He had been burglarized multiple times. They beat him to the point where they broke
his collar bone. He is 80 years old. I am with you, Spirit. I mean they broke into his home. They beat him up. Sorry, it is their fault that they
got shot.
PINSKY: Evy, what do you say? Is it a vigilante justice? Danielle have a point here.
POUMPOURAS: OK. So, this is thing with this, it is either stand-your- ground to protect yourself when you are in your home. There is a law that protects you or self-defense. At the point, when they are in his house and
they attack him and he shoots them, he is in the right. He is correct.
Now, once they are fleeing, if they leave the premises and they are going away, he is no longer in imminent danger or harm and he decides to engage
and shoot and this is what appears happened this time, then that changes things. So, now it is no longer you defending yourself or standing your
ground. It is you seeking revenge, execution-style. This is where it gets tricky. Although, I am empathize with him. There is a point where you
have to cease and desist.
PINSKY: The Los Angeles district attorney`s -- Spirit says no. The district attorney will determine if he should face charges or not. So,
Spirit, you say no?
CLANTON: You know what? I say it is unfortunate, again, that these people lost their lives, and I understand the whole once they leave your house.
But, I think that perhaps we need to look at changing the law because how many criminals take advantage of this law? They broke into his house, an
80-year-old man, broke his collar bone, beat him. Had he not gotten the gun, this could have happened the other way around.
PINSKY: Danielle, what do you say?
ROBAY: I mean I am sympathetic with him although I do not think jurors will find him sympathetic. He said he has no regrets in shooting her.
And, I feel that once someone leaves your domicile, it is a case for judge and jury.
PINSKY: And, Evy, they may empathize with him -- well, they may empathize with him, literally. They may think this guy must feel terrible to have
somebody in your home again. I guess I understand why he shot.
POUMPOURAS: Look, I can understand him. I mean they broke his collar bone and they beat him and he says I have no regrets. I get that, I am OK with
that. It is at that point where he does not cease and desist and where he allows his age and anger to seek revenge. The law exists so that we do not
seek revenge for ourselves. We go to the law and the law --
CLANTON: What makes you think he was angry? Who said he was angry? What makes you think it was out of anger --
POUMPOURAS: Would not you be angry if somebody broke into your home and beat him.
CLANTON: No. I would be scared. I would be scared. If they did it four times and I am 80 years old and they broke my collar bones and they beat me
--
POUMPOURAS: Hang on. We are not talking about being in the home.
CLANTON: And they ransacked my home, I would be freaked out.
POUMPOURAS: OK. Hold on, again, we are talking as they are fleeing. If somebody is fleeing away from you, then you are no longer in imminent
danger. That is the concept.
CLANTON: You have got to be kidding me. And, I again, I agree with you, and again I agree with you about the law but I stand by that perhaps the
law should be changed because there is no way I would give them a fifth time to come back, especially now that they know I have a weapon.
PINSKY: Danielle?
ROBAY: I mean, it is not about your feelings. It is about the law. They left his house. They fled. He could have locked his door. He had a gun
to protect himself. It is about revenge.
PINSKY: Unfortunately, you guys, the case --
CLANTON: That man is here to tell the tale because he had the gun. That is all I am going to say.
PINSKY: You know, well, I sympathize deeply with this man and what Spirit is saying, the Zimmerman thing comes to mind for me and it just makes me
very uncomfortable.
All right, next up, the police want your help on identifying these naked hamburger thieves. Anybody recognize these guys? You see your friends
walking around in their underwear all the time I am sure. So, we will talk about that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: They were just a bunch of drunk guys having a good time. That is going to land them in jail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Lou Bangert of Doc`s Beach House was at home on Sunday when his kitchen staff called him and asked him to check the
restaurant`s security footage from overnight.
LOU BANGERT, DOC`S BEACH HOUSE` GENERAL MANAGER: I see the door opened, and three guys come in. And, I go, "Oh, my God these guys do not have any
clothes on."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: That is right, no clothes. Besides one thief wearing a pair of underwear, the three burglars did not have a stitch of
clothing between them. Bangert says they broke in a little after 3:00 A.M. on Sunday and stayed about five minutes.
BANGERT: They took three cases of hamburgers, three red peppers, and some bacon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: They seem to be laughing and having a very good time while they were committing a felony crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Evy, Spirit, and Danielle. The three burglars are still on the loose. The owners of Doc`s Beach House is out about $150 and
stolen food. He says two of his waitresses would like to get a hold of these bandits and have a date with them. They liked how they looked
apparently on the security camera. But, Danielle, really we are going to excuse criminal behavior based on how somebody looks?
ROBAY: First of all, Dr. Drew, I like how they looked. They looked like student athletes. Second of all --
PINSKY: Do you want to forgo the crime, let them go, just have a date with them? Maybe that`s the way you kind of -- what would that be, coerce them
or -- you know what I am saying?
ROBAY: So funny. I mean, when I was in college guys did a lot of things for fresh meat, but this is definitely extreme. I mean, the funniest part
is they left a trail of red peppers 100 yards from the restaurant. They are like the Hansel and Gretel burglars. I mean it is hilarious.
PINSKY: Sam?
SCHACHER: They are like real life hamburglars. I love it. I think it is hilarious. So, I think that they should have to suffer the consequences?
Absolutely. But, I think this was some sort of a dare. I mean the fact that they are naked and they stole 60 hamburgers. It seems like they are
going to take those hamburgers to some sort of house party. So, I think it is college shenanigans.
PINSKY: Spirit, here is what bugs me is that these guys get a pass because they are Caucasian suffer dudes and they look like they are having a good
time. Think about -- let`s just paint the picture of some other profiles going in there at night, all of sudden, "Oh, it is a serious crime, now."
CLANTON: You know, let me kiss you on that because I am sitting over here mortified, you know?
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: And, I am losing faith in my millennials really. The fact we could think this is cute and then, you know, a few weeks ago we had the
handsome guy who just got the modeling contract because he looks so good, never mind he is a criminal.
This is the same state where we had a child lose his life who was fully clothed, mind you, who paid for his meal, but here we are talking about
some college kids who broke and entered and because they have nice bodies and they are college guys, "Oh, it is cute. I want to date them." Get
real. This is serious and it is disgusting.
PINSKY: Evy, do you agree with that?
CLANTON: I am offended.
PINSKY: Yes. Evy?
POUMPOURAS: Look, you know me, equal justice for equal crime for everybody. So, should they be penalized, yes. And, I do agree with you.
If you change the profile somewhat and maybe we change the color of their skin, we change their clothing, we change certain things, maybe we would be
a little more judgmental. So, I agree with Spirit on that one.
CLANTON: Maybe?
PINSKY: Right. That is more than maybe, Spirit. I agree with you. I think we have to like check ourselves always and we react. But Danielle,
you want to defend yourself.
ROBAY: No. Dr. Drew, I did not think about that and I think changing the profile does change it a little bit. However, they never went into the
restaurant. They were never going to steal money. They were strictly in the kitchen. This is clearly a prank. They were drunk.
CLANTON: They were in the restaurant. What do you mean they never went into the restaurant? They broke into the restaurant. This is breaking and
entering.
PINSKY: Sam?
SCHACHER: Of course, and they should suffer the consequences. But, come on, guys. Like in comparison to all the other stories we cover, could we
have one kind of light story? I think we are blowing it a little bit out of proportion.
CLANTON: No. I am going to blow it out of proportion. I am sorry. Because as a black woman if that were three black males that were walking
around in their boxer shorts or their bras or let`s talk socioeconomics --
SCHACHER: I get that. I get that.
CLANTON: -- if this was three homeless men who leaves in that area, it is not funny --
SCHACHER: I said they should suffer the consequences. But, I am sorry --
PINSKY: Evy, settle this for me.
POUMPOURAS: Look, I agree with both. It is nice to have a nice laugh because we have all these serious, you know, stories we cover but at the
end of the day on the serious note, I agree with Spirit. I really do.
PINSKY: I do, too. And, guilty as charged, too, by the way. I first giggled at this thing when I first saw it and I understand Sam and
Danielle`s point of view, but you got to think about these things. You got to think about it when you do that, you check yourself. What I want to do
next, I want to get your tweets. We are going to discuss them with this panel right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Evy, Spirit, and Danielle. And, you tweeted us a lot about the 80-year-old man who shot the not so pregnant suspect.
Sam, give us some of those.
SCHACHER: Our twitter is blowing up, Dr. Drew. So, I have one from JaySilio #notpregnantburglar. "Tragic all the way around however he seems
quite proud of what he did. That`s scary."
PINSKY: And, that is consistent -- which side is he taking on that one?
SCHACHER: He does not like the idea that this elderly man even though that he was burglarized does not have any empathy for the fact that he shot and
killed somebody.
PINSKY: So, he is sort of straddling Danielle and Spirit. What else you got?
SCHACHER: I also have one from JudyTata73. "Come on, beating up an 80- year-old man. They would not have started running if he did not have a gun." And, then I have one more that shares similar sentiment, Dr. Drew.
Mdogramiro, "No, if they broke into his home, why should he be charged? They beat him. Stop talking about revenge."
PINSKY: OK. And, that is basically Spirit`s point of view, right? So Danielle, you were the one taking a different point of view?
ROBAY: Yes. I mean, any rational person would say that these burglars are categorized as bad guys. They were threatening. They beat up an elderly
man. But they left his house. Once someone leaves your domicile, it is for judge and jury, bottom line.
PINSKY: And, Evy, you are saying the same thing.
POUMPOURAS: Look. This is the thing, Dr. Drew. At what point do we draw the line? Spirit said earlier we change the law. But, what you change the
law to, they leave his home. Now , hey are outside of your domain? Then what? You change it to going to their car? Do you follow them to the car
and shoot them there? Do you follow them home and shoot them there to seek retribution? Do you see what I am saying --
PINSKY: Yes. I do. But, Spirit you are expressing really an emotion we feel. We are all frustrated with these things. Would you agree?
CLANTON: Listen. You know, for me it is beyond frustrated. I think about it like this, my grandfather is close to that age. And, if I had to have
him call me to say, "Baby, they broke into my house again. Baby, they broke into my house again. Baby, they broke into my house again and this
time they beat the hell out of me. Baby, I am afraid they are going to come back."
If he has a gun, my only complaint here is that he did not get both of them. And, I am sorry. I respect life like anybody else, but I respect
the life of those I love. And, I would not find myself running up in somebody`s house. And, let`s bear in mind, this is not the first time that
she has done this either.
PINSKY: Right. Right.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: And, Danielle, I will let you respond, but I think what Spirit is saying is that very much like what Evy described, Danielle would get a -- I
mean excuse me, Spirit would get a gun and would chase them to their car and have at them.
CLANTON: No. I am not saying that either. But, I have guns but I would challenge anyone to come into my house and not think I would defend myself
nor the people that I love.
PINSKY: Danielle, real quick.
ROBAY: Well, what happens if he runs outside and shoots and misfires and kills a kid? What if that is your kid --
CLANTON: He did not.
ROBAY: But, what if? Where do you draw the line?
CLANTON: He did not. I draw the line and he got who he was supposed to get.
PINSKY: And, Sam, that is Evy`s point.
SCHACHER: Yes. I see both sides. I think it is really easy for us to look at it now and say he should have done this, or this but I think he
felt really threatened and he was fearful.
PINSKY: We have to wrap it, guys. Got to go there. Thank you for your conversation. Forensic Files starts now.
END
