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Don Lemon Tonight

Outdoor Market in Gaza Hit by Israeli Air Strike; Ebola Outbreak Claimed Nearly 500 Lives, Including One American; ESPN Suspended Stephen A. Smith for One Week

Aired July 30, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon. It's 11:00 p.m. on the east coast.

And early Thursday morning in Israel and Gaza, where another day of deadly violence is expected. An outdoor market in Gaza was hit by an Israeli air strike today. The Gaza health ministry reports 17 people died.

And a deadly strike on a United Nations shelter in Gaza. The U.N. blaming the attack on Israeli artillery. One official says the world stands disgraced for not protecting children. A live report from the Middle East is coming up.

But first, a frightening warning to Americans from U.S.-born jihadist fighting in Syria. That battlefield is 6,000 miles away and feels even farther as the world's attention is focused on the conflict in Gaza. But there is a group of Americans directly involved in the Syrian civil war, and they're vowing to spread jihad.

CNN's Jim Sciutto has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is a chilling warning from a terrorist born and raised in America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are coming for you. Mark my words!

SCIUTTO: In this video posted online this week, an American jihadist destroys his passport, and warns his home country is not safe from attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is (INAUDIBLE). I'm from America. I'm 22 years old.

SCIUTTO: He is Monar Mohammad Abu Salah (ph), a college dropped out from Florida who traveled to Syria to join extremists in the fight against the regime of Syrian President Bashar Al Assad.

Then this May, he died in a suicide bombing, detonating a bomb-laden truck, more than three years into a civil war in Syria that has killed tens of thousands, and now spilled into neighboring Iraq, thousands of foreign fighters have been drawn to the battle. Among them an estimated one thousand westerners, including more than 100 Americans. U.S. and European officials are now gravely concerned about what could

happen next. Intelligence has found these fighters are being trained to carry out attacks when they return home, including to America.

JOHN CARLIN, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: The number of foreign fighters that are already in place in Syria and the number of westerners in that group is one that is unprecedented. And I think it's a larger number than we ever saw in the ungoverned space of Pakistan and Afghanistan region.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Deep fears about U.S. and other western recruits like Abu Salah (ph) have led U.S. officials to call the wars in Syria and Iraq a direct threat to the U.S. homeland. It is now a race against time to track them and catch them before they can strike -- Don.

LEMON: Jim Sciutto, thank you very much.

Back with me is Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, CNN military analyst and former U.S. military attache in Syria.

Abu Salah (ph) is his name. He is believed to be the first American to carry out a suicide attack in the Syrian civil war. Are we going to start seeing more of this?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Probably, as the recruitment of Americans ramps up. This is one of the things that Al Qaeda and the other jihadist groups have tried for years to do. Find an American who is willing to participate in Jihadi operations, whether it be overseas or more importantly back in the states because that American passport allows them to go back and forth with almost no questions.

LEMON: So how do they find them? How do they recruit them?

FRANCONA: Well, they're looking for something. Many of them self- radicalize. They find on the internet these jihadi sites. The Awlaki was very good about radicalizing people via the internet. So, if they're looking for something, they'll find it. And the internet is a real wealth of information for them.

LEMON: Is he from the same hometown as your mother?

FRANCONA: My mother lives in the same hometown as his family in Florida, yes.

LEMON: And do you know the family?

FRANCONA: No, we don't.

LEMON: But we know he did come back. If you saw the new reporting, he did come back to the United States before carrying out that suicide attack in Syria.

FRANCONA: Yes. This is the scary part. He was able to come back to the United States virtually undetected, stay here for a while and then return to the battlefield in Syria. There is no reason he couldn't have come back again and carried out some operation here.

So this should be a wake-up call for us that we need to, as Jim said in his report, we need to find some way to track these people and to deter them from doing this.

LEMON: You're attache in Syria?

FRANCONA: I was.

LEMON: So you spent a lot of time there. What does the location reveal, if anything about where it happened in Syria?

FRANCONA: Well, this is north of Hamas. It's on the main highway from Damascus to Aleppo. It's an old town called (INAUDIBLE) which is doesn't mean much but it is on that main highway and controls the road. If the rebels can control that road, they can stop the flow of goods and soldiers to and from the north. It's a very strategic location.

LEMON: He vows in the video, he says America is not safe, right. So you know, I know we have to take it seriously, right? And people have said we need to start take it seriously. But taking something seriously and start worrying about it, two different things. Two different levels.

FRANCONA: I think it's important for law enforcement to take a good look at this and find out how they're radicalized and how we detect it. The problem is if yourself radicalize on the internet and you go to Syria to join the groups, how does that come to the attention of law enforcement? It probably doesn't.

LEMON: This is what the FBI, just a few months ago, James called me said the number of Americans traveling to Syria to fight is increasing.

FRANCONA: Yes.

LEMON: What is the military's response to the problem?

FRANCONA: Well, it's got to be a law enforcement response. And you've got to find them before they go, because once they go, they can walk right back through JFK. That's a real problem. And it is true that the recruitment is up. And we've noticed recruitment actually going up over the last few weeks because of the situation in Gaza.

LEMON: That was my next question. That plays into this?

FRANCONA: It absolutely does. Because as your earlier guest Fareed I think mentioned it, the resistance gives them some cache. And it attracts people from other parts of the Muslim world and in the United States. They say they're standing up to the Israelis or the Zionists, as they call them. And it's a recruiting tool for Al Qaeda and other Jihadi groups. LEMON: I asked Richard Haass about this, and this is an article by

David Brooks in "The New York Times" today where he mentioned Richard Haass. And he said what happens, of course, and he is talking about what is happening in Gaza, he says in the Middle East, it has become what Richard Haass of the council on foreign relations has called its 30 years war, an overlapping series of clashes and proxy wars that could go on for decades and transform identities, maps, and the political contours of the region.

FRANCONA: Yes. This is a conflict that really there is no easy fix to because you've got two groups that want the same thing.

LEMON: This is the possibility of a 30-years war as he said?

FRANCONA: I think it's already been going on for 30. We may be looking at 30 more.

LEMON: Really?

FRANCONA: And if you look at the current situation, the demands that Hamas has and the Palestinians have and the demands that the Israelis have are diametrically opposed. They're not even close to a solution. They may get a ceasefire, but if they do, we'll be having this conversation two years from now.

LEMON: Also, there is sort of the meat of this argument is that the world's eyes are focused on Gaza. And then not looking in other places. And in other places, there are conflicts that are happening and there are things that are going on that we're not aware of.

FRANCONA: Well, it's not that we're aware of it. It's just that our focus gets drawn to the crisis of the day. Right now we're talking about Gaza. Two weeks ago we were talking about ISIS.

LEMON: Meaning intelligence may not be paying attention too?

FRANCONA: Well, intelligence is paying attention.

LEMON: Law enforcement?

FRANCONA: But it's the decision-makers have to focus on what is important.

Secretary of state is focused on Gaza right now because that's the big crisis. But he still has to deal with what is going on in Syria and Baghdad, Syria and an Iraq with ISIS and the Islamic state.

LEMON: Rick, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Coming up, there is tension there is turmoil and there is bloodshed in Gaza. But is it a humanitarian crisis? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. The sun is rising over Gaza after a deadly day in the Middle East with air strikes on an outdoor market and a U.N.-sponsored refugee shelter. That is a live picture that you're looking at.

CNN's Martin Savidge, though, live for us now in Jerusalem.

Martin, there is new video today of that market bopping that took place in Gaza. Let's take a look at it.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

LEMON: Just grisly video, Martin. What is the update on it? What can you tell us about it?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The video is horrific. Of course, the loss of life is horrific. And the Israeli military is finding itself in a very difficult circumstance of trying to explain exactly what happened there.

The IDF has put out a couple statements. You know, first they were asked what about the attack on the school. Now what about the issue with the marketplace.

Because it happened late yesterday afternoon, there is not a whole lot that the IDF has said about the market. They will only say look, that was happening during the time of what Israel had proclaimed to be a window of a humanitarian ceasefire. But at that time Hamas continued to launch rockets against Israel. Israel maintains the right to respond.

Whether that market was hit as part of a response or Israel has also said it is possible that rockets fired towards Israel may have fallen short on the part of Hamas. And it actually was Hamas that hit the marketplace inadvertently.

The IDF, the spokesperson for IDF, that's Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner has stated that over the last 48 hours, the Israeli military has noted a number of instances in which the Israeli army is being blamed for these attacks that they say they had nothing to do with. In other words, they are implying, this is a direct strategy on the part of Hamas to either lure Israel into attacking civilian areas or that Hamas is actually attacking them themselves and blaming Israel. Of course, I've got no way to either verify or deny that for you, Don.

LEMON: The U.S. today, Martin, condemned the bombings that killed civilians, but also agreed to resupply Israel with weapons. Are U.S.- made weapons being used right now in Israel's attack on Gaza?

SAVIDGE: Well, they are. I mean, I don't think that comes as any surprise to anyone. In fact, the USA is helping to provide the very important missiles that are used to protect Israelis. That's the iron dome defensive shield that has been highly effective in this particular conflict.

The fact that the United States has admitted that it's got a billion dollar stockpile of weaponry, a billion dollar stockpile in Israel should indicate to you how strong the military relationship between Israel and the United States is, how strong the political relationship is. The fact that it wants to draw on the stockpile should also indicate

something else. Israel usually is very clear in transmitting its future intent. If it wants this stuff, it implies it's thinking this military operation is going to go longer and maybe will be expanded -- Don.

LEMON: Martin Savidge in Jerusalem. Martin, thank you very much.

Joining me now, Lieutenant Colonel Geoffrey Corn, the former army jag attorney, now law professor at south Texas college of law, and retired army lieutenant general Russell Honore, author of "leadership in the new normal."

I appreciate both of you.

General, to you first. Is the situation in Gaza a humanitarian crisis?

LT. GEN. RUSSELL HONORE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, let's put hit the way, Don. We have about 1.8 million people, most of them don't have running water and power tonight. And there is consistent fighting going back and forth where the Palestinians and Hamas and Israelis are exchanging fire. In between that are 1.8 million people.

Yes, it's a humanitarian crisis. And the Israelis have done a great work going in there, getting their tactical objective done. Now it's time for this thing to stop. The citizens, the casualties are mounting. Over 1300 casualties. No electricity, no water. Depending on some lines that have been disrupted, it is time for this to stop. This is a humanitarian crisis.

LEMON: So what would you go in there and do at this point? What can be done at this point?

HONORE: What can be done? We can make sure we can get a ship in there to try and take care of the casualties that have been injured. We can get a crisis team in there working with the Israelis. Because some of the power that go into Gaza come out of Israel. Some of that power will come out of Egypt. And get those lines back up and end the suffering for electricity and water. Because a lot of people live in high-rise buildings. We need to look at this as a crisis now that need to be dealt with. Both sides need to stop. They have played a good game.

LEMON: I want to get the colonel in here.

Because Colonel, you know, as the general has been saying, and obviously this is in the middle of a war zone, right. What responsibility to warring parties have to protect civilians?

LT. COL. GEOFFREY CORN (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, the first responsibility is to distinguish between attacking civilians and attacking lawful military targets. But as the general knows, there is no more complicated environment to implement that rule than in close combat in urban terrain. And that is a very, very difficult situation. What is clear is that both sides to the conflict have a legal

obligation to do everything feasible to mitigate the risk to civilians. That means that Hamas has to avoid putting their vital military objectives, their rockets, their resources in the midst of civilians. And it also means that even if they do that, the IDF has to do everything feasible to avoid inflicting civilian harm. But it doesn't mean that the IDF has to stop attacking these targets. Because if that were the rule, then it would be impossible for them to conduct their operations.

LEMON: Do you agree that it's a humanitarian crisis at this point, before I ask you the next question?

CORN: Of course it's a humanitarian crisis. There is close combat occurring in a densely populated urban environment. And, again, military commanders are taught from inception that this is the type of environment that they should avoid at all costs. And I think that t fact that the Israelis have put this ground operation in to implementation in this environment, knowing how difficult it's going to be, knowing that it's going to be unavoidable to cause civilian casualties is an indication of how significant a strategic objective that nation sees this operation. And inevitable that people are going to suffer.

And I think one of the -- a certain category of individuals that's not getting enough credit here are the humanitarian aid organizations like the international committee of the Red Cross, like United Nations humanitarian agents who have the challenge of working with both sides to try and find space, to find protection and aid for these civilians.

LEMON: So listen. The United States is supplying additional ammunition to Israel. You heard Martin Savidge's report of that. He said it should come as no surprise. And doing this while hoping for a ceasefire. How is that viewed in the Middle East, Colonel, and then general?

CORN: Well, look, I think if there are people who believe that this is an act of brutality on the part of Israelis, they are going to link that to the United States, because they're going see the United States is facilitating it.

But on the other hand, there are many people who believe that this is a legitimate act of self-defense, and that the Israelis have a right and a responsibility to conduct this operation, and the United States should stand with its allies.

So I think people who are disposed to view the parties one way or the other will either consider this a laudable action by the United States or a negative action by the United States.

LEMON: General, I want to get this into you because as we know, what you did in New Orleans, and you went in there and you got the place in order. And you mentioned people in that, and you said in a dense area, living in high-rises, right? So how complicated it is to minimize civilian casualties when the enemy is embedded in urban terrain. HONORE: I think we've seen that conversation play out at the top of

every aisle, where both sides come on and describe their position. The question is this need to stop. We see the consequences of it. We are playing with something here that could ignite the entire region. It needs to stop. The Israelis are allies.

LEMON: What would you have Israel do? Israel is saying that they are coming through -- and they are concern that it, quite honestly, no one wants to go back to the days when you would see, you know, suicide bombings go off in cafes and restaurants all the time. So what would you have Israel do?

HONORE: Israel one of the most well equip, well-trained reputable armies in the world. Has accomplished their tactical mission to close down the opportunities. They have the iron dome, which we've collaborated on and created. It's protecting the people of Israel.

Have there been losses? Yes. But look, it's time to stop before this get escalate to a point where they can't stop. Israel can defend itself. This group will not bring down Israel. But what could happen is the house of cards happening. This is a humanitarian crisis. They need to declare victory and leave.

LEMON: And then what about Hamas? Using people as human shields and you know, reportedly using children as human shields. What is their responsibility, colonel?

CORN: Well, that's clear. The international law of war makes it very clear that the parties to the conflict are prohibited from attempting to immunize what they know are targets. Their military assets and their military capabilities by commingling them with the civilian population.

Now, to be clear, if they do that, it does not release the IDF, the Israeli forces, from their obligation to try and minimize the risk to civilian -- of civilian casualties. But it is a clear violation of international law if it turns out, as it appears to be the case, that Hamas is deliberately locating their vital military assets, most notably their rockets, in the midst of civilian populations. And it should be condemned as quickly and as vigorously as any condemnation of improper attacks by the IDF that people believe are occurring.

LEMON: All right.

So let's assume that there is eventually a ceasefire in this conflict. What is the lasting impact of this kind of damage to this kind of damage to the civilian population and the infrastructure? I mean, in Gaza, conditions are degraded. Is that only fuel for this cycle of violence, General?

HONORE: Absolutely. You've got infrastructure that has been torn apart, to include the sewer system, Don. This is going to take not only weeks, but months to repair. A system that was already teetering because much of their water is purified from the sea. It is time that they stop the fighting, try to get that infrastructure back up. Imagine these kids, a whole generation of them when they go back to school. Somebody say well what did you do this summer? They spent their entire summer watching their friends being in the middle of a war. This need to stop. Israel has accomplished its objective. Pull back. And then Israel need to help the Palestinians reconstitute that infrastructure. And the United States need to have teams in there working with the U.N. to get that thing up so people can live.

LEMON: Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining me. Appreciate you.

And coming up, until this week, the Ebola outbreak had been contained to three west African countries. But a U.S. citizen contracted the virus and died five days later. Is Ebola coming to the U.S.? We'll get into that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.

The peace corps announced today that it is pulling more than 300 of its volunteers out of three west African countries in the grip of the Ebola crisis. The outbreak has already claimed nearly 500 lives, including one American. And more than 200 other deaths are suspected to be caused by the virus.

And there was a prayer service tonight at the Cavalry Missionary Church in Charlotte, North Carolina for one of its members who contracted Ebola while working in Liberia.

More tonight on this growing health crisis from CNN's Pam Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the deadly Ebola virus moves across west Africa, concern about it spreading even further mounts. Two peace corps volunteers exposed to the virus are on isolation and under observation before they can return to the U.S.

The peace corps announced today it is pulling out hundreds of its volunteers from the three west African countries affected by Ebola and returning them to the U.S. And CNN has learned that the centers for disease control is considering raising the travel warning to affected countries to the highest level, advising Americans against any nonessential travel.

GARY SIMON, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL DIRECTOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Of course there is a possibility of somebody flying in from Africa or some place.

BROWN: As two American aid workers stricken with Ebola in Liberia are showing signs of improvement, the Christian organizations they work for are evacuating all nonessential personnel out of that country. The son of one of those infected aid workers spoke on the "Today" show.

JEREMY WRITEBOL, SON OF EBOLA PATIENT: She is fighting through it and continuing to express a few symptoms. But she is able to move around on her own. And they're getting lots of fluids into her.

BROWN: The disease has already claimed the life of a Minnesota father of three, Patrick Sawyer. Sawyer flew from Liberia to Ghana after a layover there, he flew on to Togo. There he switched to another plane and became violently ill as he flew to Nigeria. Sawyer's widow says she spoke with her husband just days before he died.

DECONTEE SAWYER, WIFE OF AMERICAN EBOLA VICTIM PATRICK SAWYER: He was visiting his sister. She was ill. And he helped care for her. And so he contracted it that way. They didn't know it was Ebola. Because Ebola displays other symptoms like malaria symptoms. So they thought she may have malaria. So he was helping. Had he known, you know, he would have definitely taken better precautions.

BROWN: Liberia has shut down some of its borders and closed all of its schools, and health officials in certain west African countries are screening inbound and outbound airline passengers and working with CDC to show people how to protect themselves from Ebola. The CDC ready with these isolation pods should it need to transport anyone stricken with Ebola that needs to be brought back to the U.S.

Pamela Brown, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Boy. Pam Brown, thank you very much.

I'm joined now by Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, a board certified internist and gastroenterologist.

So Doctor, welcome.

DOCTOR JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST, GASTROENTEROLOGIST: Thank you.

LEMON: So far this virus hasn't entered the U.S., as far as we know. But as we heard it in Pamela Brown's story, there two peace corps volunteers are in isolation, and 340 are being moved out of west Africa. Should these workers be allowed back to the United States, or should they be screened?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, I think they eventually should be allowed back to the United States. But before that, they should be screened. I mean, as you saw in the case of Mr. Sawyer, who went to visit his sister, he didn't know, you know, what she had. So Ebola can take two to 21 days to show symptoms. So I think three days to three weeks of quarantine is worth it to make sure that this isn't spread into this country.

LEMON: Today the President of Liberia issued a statement and called this outbreak of Ebola unprecedented and truly an international problem. Does this outbreak pose a threat outside of western Africa?

RODRIGUEZ: Of course. I have no doubt. You know, to my way of looking at this, it isn't if Ebola is going to reach Europe or the United States. It's a matter of when. So definitely with today's transportation, it's a risk for anywhere in the world in any opinion.

LEMON: Describe that scenario.

RODRIGUEZ: Well, the scenario is, for example, Mr. Sawyer, who was on a plane, he didn't know he had symptoms. He died within 24 hours of disembarking. On that plane, did he cough into his hands? Did he shake somebody's hands, you know? Did he go to the rest room? And, you know, perhaps there was some feces. You know, it's hard to talk about, but you really don't know, you know, if anybody on his flights, and I know that they're tracking them down, could have caught Ebola. Are they now in Paris? Are they now in New York?

LEMON: So many people travel, right, from America to Africa. I'm supposed to go on a trip with my mother in a couple of weeks to Africa. Would you go to west Africa?

RODRIGUEZ: It depends where you're going, Don.

LEMON: They won't tell us where we're going. But it's in west Africa.

RODRIGUEZ: You know, to be quite honest, if it's just a vacation, no, I would not go. Now, we all have responsibilities that come with our jobs. And maybe that's different. You know, as a physician, I'm probably going to come face-to-face with this one day. So a leisurely vacation in west Africa, no, I would not go.

LEMON: They say it's not a leisurely vacation. It's with ancestry.com, and they won't tell us where they're going because they're revealing genealogy. But I'm just wondering, she asked me today. So you know, thanks for answering that question. We'll reassess in the morning.

The world health organization has confirmed 800 cases and 456 deaths. But suspects, you know, there are many, many more or both. Why this strain of Ebola? Why is it so aggressive, and what scares you about it?

RODRIGUEZ: Actually, Don, it's kind of lucky, because this appears to be a different strain, believe it or not, than the most aggressive, which is the Zaire strain. That kills 90 percent of the people. This is around 55 or 60 percent, which is still huge. What scares me is there is no sign that this is on the decline. What scares me is that people can spread it before they even know that they have it.

LEMON: OK.

RODRIGUEZ: So those are two big things that scare me.

LEMON: As we were discussing this today, and I thought about it in all the stories I covered over the years, Sars, Monkeypox, I can't even think, bird flu, the swine flu, hoof and mouth. None of them really ever came to the United States. They posed problems in other places, but never really came here. Is this different?

RODRIGUEZ: This is different. And the fact that it is so quick to kill. And the one treatment that we had for Ebola was isolation. Even when villages got it, you would isolate it so it wouldn't spread. It has spread. So how do you isolate a city of 10 million that gets this? That's the problem in my mind.

LEMON: Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, thank you.

RODRIGUEZ: My pleasure.

LEMON: Coming up, Steven A. Smith, known as the outspoken sportscaster on ESPN. But his comments got him in deep trouble this time. More on that next.

And tomorrow at 9:00 p.m., CNN's Emmy nominated "the Sixties," a nation at war, abroad and at home. And the years -- the year was 1968. Here is your sixties minute.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 1968 has certainly been one of the unhappiest years in American history.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 1968 was one thing after another.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You assassinate nonviolent direct action, you try to kill the dream. OK, here is a taste of the nightmare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Robert Francis Kennedy died at 1:44.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was the only lead they're I feel gives us any hope for the future.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we're going to win remember that if we're going to have law and order.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we have a little too much violence in this country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People were afraid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to question ourselves. Is our country coming apart? What are we becoming?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The "SIXTIES" tomorrow night at 9:00 on CNN.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So tonight the Baltimore Ravens announced that their star running back Ray Rice will address the media tomorrow. The NFL suspended Rice for two games after charges he assaulted his fiancee.

ESPN's sportscaster Stephen A. Smith made these comments about domestic abuse after that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) STEPHEN SMITH, ESPN SPORTSCASTER: We got to also make sure that you can do your part to do whatever you can do to make -- to try to make sure it doesn't happen. We know they're wrong. We know they're criminal. We know they probably deserve to be in jail. In Ray Rice's case he probably deserve more than the two-game suspension which we both acknowledged. But at the same time, we also have to make sure that we learn as much as we can about elements of provocation, not at this there is real provocation. But the elements of provocation, you have to make sure you address it. Because what we've got to do is do what we can to try to prevent the situation from happening in any way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So joining me now is Danny Cevallos, CNN legal analyst and a criminal defense attorney and then Philip W. Cook, the author f "Abuse Men, the hidden side of domestic violence," Dr. Judy Ho, the clinical and forensic psychologist.

Welcome, everyone. This has been a very touchy subject. Everyone has been talking about this, and really having strong opinions about it.

So Danny, yesterday ESPN suspended Stephen A. Smith for one week due to his comments suggesting women shouldn't provoke men to hit them. Apology, his apology this week. He apologized I should say after that suspension, or just before that suspension. What do you make of this? Is that enough?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, let me see, Don. You have asked me to come on your network and speak my mind about another network that suspended a guy for speaking his mind. Yes, exactly. I mean. pardon me if as we say in first amendment parlance, my speech is a little chill.

But look, you have to read the entire transcript and watch the entire video. I think number one if you can even discern what he is saying. I'm not sure Stephen A. Smith meant to use the word provocation in certain parts. But look, it boils down to this. If you condemn Stephen A. Smith, logically, what that means is, you believe it's impossible for a female ever to physically provoke a male. And that's fine if that's your position.

But I don't necessarily believe that if you took a poll of the family violence courts or the police officers or anyone in the domestic violence business or divorce law, I don't know that they would agree with you that it's impossible for a female to ever physically provoke a male. And that's the only way you can condemn Smith.

LEMON: Listen, he probably should have gotten maybe a little bit more facts. I have written about this. I have studied it. And it's the underreported domestic abuse. And that is domestic abuse against men.

But listen, you said maybe he didn't mean to say provocation, right, or provoke. There are plenty of instances, and this is what he said about Chad Johnson. This was back in 2012. He said there are plenty of instances where provocation comes into consideration, instigation comes into consideration. And I will be On the Record right here on national television and say I am sick and tired of men constantly being vilified and accused of things and we stop there. I'm saying we can go a step further. Then he goes on about this.

So the question is, Philip, what do you make of this? He has done it before. Danny says he doesn't believe that he meant to say provoke.

PHILIP W. COO, AUTHOR, ABUSE MEN: Well, let's put it this way. No one deserves to be hit, period, man, woman, or child. Provocation, a very bad choice of words. No one makes you physically attack someone. If you are too angry or so on, you know, if the police were there, that attack would not probably happen. They made me do it is no excuse for domestic violence, period.

Now, it's a different question, however, as to whether or not men, as well as women and children can be physically abused by the other gender. The answer to that of course is simply yes. Let's take a look at the latest centers for disease control report. Over a lifetime, they said 28.8 percent of women and 28.5 percent of men have been physically abused, raped, or stalked by an intimate partner. That's pretty equal, isn't it?

LEMON: Yes. But the question is, Dr. Ho, what is the double standard? Here it again, this goes beyond what happened to Ray Rice. Ray Rice say, you know, has not gone to court yet. But has admitted in some way that he did hit his then fiancee, now his wife. This goes beyond. And now this opens up a conversation about domestic violence. So we're not talking specifics about that case. But why the double standard since we have moved on to this?

DOCTOR JUDY HO, CLINICAL/FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: And there absolutely is a double standard, as you just mentioned, that somehow it's OK for females to hit males. But the males are not supposed to hit back. And this is not everybody and every circle. But when you take a poll and when you look at the research, there are these beliefs that a man should never hit back, but a woman can hit if she gets upset. That that is something that is pervasive in our culture.

Of course this is a problem, as we already discussed because there are males who are being abused. And it's very much underreported because there is a stigma against that.

So we have a problem here of the double standard. We have a problem of the underreporting. And I completely agree that nobody should be hitting anybody. And that that is going to be part of the evidence that you have to look at.

Unfortunately, the word provoked makes it sound like that the female had it coming, that she somehow deserved it. And so of course that poor choice of words is why we're having this discussion tonight.

LEMON: OK, listen. I want to talk about provoke. Can someone ever be provoked? Can if a woman hits a man and a man hits her back, who usually -- who usually starts these confrontations in a relationship? Is there research for that, Dr. Ho?

COOK: Yes, there. HO: Yes, there is some research about that, Don. And actually, most

of the times we see that the woman is the one who aggresses first. But I think the problem is that most of the times the woman does not do as much damage physically on a man than the other way around, which is why we have this double standard.

But there is research. And it shows that most of the times the women do sometimes start the altercation. They may just be pushing. But then of course the man gets upset and then they might push back. But that's such a bigger deal than the woman pushing in the first place because of all the issues we discussed before.

LEMON: Go ahead, Philip Cook.

COOK: Yes, well, there is solid research on that. And basically, if you look at some 300 published research studies, been going on for some 30 years, they pretty much say the same thing. Half the time it's a case of myth mutual combat. A quarter of time the woman is violent. A quarter of the time the man is violent. Half the time women strike first. Half the time men do. In terms of injury, there is a greater proportion of injury to women overall when you combine mild and serious.

However, when you get to the most serious forms of injury, the rates are fairly similar. Women make up for the size and weight differential, which is pretty obvious in most cases by using weapons twice as often. Or attacking when the man is unaware, such as the man who was rolled up in the bed sheets and beaten with a baseball bat. The man who was set on fire, a football player who opens the front door and gets blown away by a shotgun-wielding wife.

You know, these things happen as well. So size and weight differential makes up, you know, is made up by weapons use and attack by surprise. One man I know is 6'2". He came home fell asleep on the couch. And his wife didn't like that, hot could have 15 thrown and hit by a heel.

LEMON: I want get Danny in here because I want to go back to now -- I'm going to back to talk about ESPN specifically.

In 2010, ESPN was outraged when two employees used a term chink in the armor when referred to agent basketball player Jeremy lin. One employee was fired, the other suspended for 30 days. Is violence against women not as offensive to ESPN as race or a slur?

CEVALLOS: You're saying that -- I think you're saying that should this have been a more egregious offense to ESPN.

LEMON: Yes.

CEVALLOS: I think that's a global -- look, these networks are private entities. They're not necessarily in the business of penal codes. So they're not necessarily good at it. In a way, all of their punishments are going to be arbitrary.

But, you know, you have to take a step back and say number one, Stephen A. Smith is paid for his opinion. And he speaks extemporaneously on all manner of subjects. And if he wasn't a firebrand, we would have never heard of him.

And part two is he is an entertainer. He is not the secretary of state. He is not making policy. He is a guy for his very interesting opinion. And guess what? We're all talking about it. So frankly, and this is just a suggestion, maybe ESPN isn't quite as outraged as you might think, because we are now all talking about ESPN.

LEMON: All right. Everyone stick around because coming up, self- defense aside, is there ever, ever, ever a justification for physical violence between a man and a woman? That's next.

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LEMON: Welcome back.

Nobody knows exactly what happened inside the elevator with Ray Rice and his then fiancee, now his wife. But we do know that it has sparked a controversy about women and men and domestic violence. So I am back now with Danny Cevallos, Philip Cook, and also Dr. Judy Ho.

Can I ask you about, remember, we were all analyzing that video with Jay-Z and Solange, his sister-in-law. And everyone praised him for doing the right thing, right? He just sort held her back and the security guard came and got her. He never hit her. So why would you praise Jay-Z, and he is getting, you know, Ray Rice is -- and saying Ray Rice did the wrong thing? I'm going to ask Dr. Ho.

HO: So why would we be praising Jay-Z instead?

LEMON: Yes, if he didn't defend himself.

HO: Well, the fact that he is -- right. And he is holding back. And that's kind of what our culture expects men to do when women aggress on them.

And your question before the break, Don, was a good one which is it OK? And I think that most people would say that there was some justification that the man was actually afraid that he was going to really seriously get hurt, and he was acting in self-defense. And it doesn't matter who aggressed, whether it's a man or a woman, you defend yourself.

Unfortunately, like Philip talked about earlier in the segment, we do have some problems with females being the ones who are more seriously hurt or at least report that they're more seriously hurt. And that's why we have this discrepancy.

LEMON: OK. Go ahead, Danny. You want to weigh in on this?

CEVALLOS: Yes. You know, you bring up an interesting social thing. I mean, when we see that video of Jay-Z, we say well, that may have seemed more honorable that he stood there and took it. Maybe that's true. But that's also a bit of a gamble. We are human beings and we are

susceptible to injury. All it takes is a few ounces of pressure in the wrong place to break a nose. And while we may look that video and say well, we admire what Jay-Z did by not fighting back.

You know, violence can come in any forms. And as I said before and as apparently the studies show that women are capable of violence just like men. And violence is very unpredictable. I mean, something you seemingly innocuous can actually really hurt somebody. And maybe even deadly force when you don't expect to use it.

And believe me, the criminal courts are full of people who weren't aware or didn't plan on using deadly force, but they end upped doing so.

LEMON: Philip, quick. I have just a short time left. Quickly, if you can get in on this.

COOK: Well, certainly. One, we need to label things correctly. What happened in the elevator was a sexual assault. You can clearly see that in the kick and where she aimed it. So when it happens to a man, you know, we should label it as a sexual assault. Number two, there is huge policy changes we need to make. Here is a terrible example I think, frankly. You know, there are more shelters in which women are faced with a terrible choice of not being allowed to have their teen aged sons, any boy over the age of 12 allowed into the shelter.

LEMON: Yes.

COOK: There are more shelters with that policy than there are shelters for men, heterosexual or gay. And that's --

LEMON: I've got to go. Thank you, all. Thank you. We'll be right back.

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LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. That's it for us tonight. Thanks for watching.