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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Cease-Fire Shattered

Aired August 01, 2014 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Caught in the middle.

Thanks for joining us AT THIS HOUR. "Legal View" with Jim Sciutto starts right now.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm Jim Sciutto, in for Ashleigh Banfield again today. It is Friday, August 1st and welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

Right now, a humanitarian cease-fire in Gaza should be 11 hours old with at least 61 hours to go. Instead, Secretary of State John Kerry, who helped broker the truce, along with the U.N., is condemning what he calls, quote, an outrageous violation by Hamas. As you know if you've been watching CNN, the lull lasted barely the 90 minutes, an hour and a half. And as we speak, Israeli soldiers are searching desperately for a comrade, a second lieutenant, who was captured in a suicide attack and firefight with Hamas. Two Israeli soldiers were also killed in that firefight. It happened near the southern Gazan city of Rafah, in a tunnel that troops were allowed to, under the cease-fire agreement, continue decommissioning. Hamas claims, however, that the attack happened before the truce, in response to Israeli advances on Rafah overnight.

Afterward, Israeli unleashed a bombardment the Palestinians say has killed at least 40 people in Rafah, including three paramedics, and wounding more than 200. Secretary Kerry says, quote, "Hamas must immediately and unconditionally release the missing Israeli soldier." He goes on to say, "it would be a tragedy if this outrageous attack leads to more suffering and loss of life on both sides."

CNN's Karl Penhaul is in Gaza. He brought us real-time coverage of the cease-fire as it was collapsing. He joins us now live with the latest.

Karl, it seems, from what we're hearing there, that Israel already unleashing not only a search for this soldier, but some fairly dramatic retaliation for this attack.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've certainly heard artillery fire on Gaza's eastern border. We've just had a CNN reporting team coming back from southern Gaza as well. They also heard what they described there as sporadic artillery fire. We do know though from witnesses and from the Palestinian health authority that around an hour and a half into the cease-fire this morning, what they described as Israeli shelling on a marketplace area and also close to a hospital. The Palestinian health authority saying 40 people were killed in that and 250 others wounded.

What we don't know is whether this incident was independent of the other incident that's been reported. A confrontation between militant fighters and Israeli soldiers in a tunnel. We are also getting statements from Hamas' political and military wing alleging that it was the Israeli forces that began advancing deeper into Gaza 90 minutes before that cease-fire began, saying that that is what started the firefight. Certainly no claim of responsibility yet from Hamas, however, that they may have that Israeli soldier, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Karl, is there any concern, and we've been reporting on this, yourself included before, about divisions within Hamas? Is it possible that another faction in Hamas carried out this attack without the blessing of the leadership or, in fact, that this cease-fire that was delivered, something of a surprise last night, that the terms of the cease-fire did not make it down to every rank and file soldier? What are you hearing on the ground there?

PENHAUL: I think there are a lot of questions still to be answered. I've heard on our air this morning, in fact, sometimes we -- quoting Hamas spokesman who live abroad, sometimes Hamas spokesman who live in Gaza, sometimes quoting the political wing, sometimes quoting the military wing. I believe that the issue here is possibly communication, not necessarily a disagreement.

Also, it needs to be pointed out, that there is not just Hamas. They're not the only militant faction here. We also know down in southern Gaza as well that Islamic jihad, for example, has militant fighters down there. We also know they operate tunnels. I don't have the answers, was it one of their operations, certainly no claim of responsibility from them yet.

Also, what we don't know in a group like Hamas or Islamic jihad that fights guerrilla tactics doesn't necessarily have clearly defined front lines. Of course, what we do know is that they have lines under the ground, not only over the ground. And one question we also need to answer is, where in the tunnel did that confrontation allegedly occur in relation to the front line on the surface, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, this is a messy, messy battlefield, difficult to control. Thanks very much to our Karl Penhaul, who has been right in the middle of it from the beginning.

I want to bring in my CNN colleague, Wolf Blitzer, now in Jerusalem.

Wolf, I wonder, from your perspective there, you've been speaking to Israeli officials every day, multiple times a day, was there any confusion about what was allowed under the cease-fire agreement in terms of operations inside Gaza, against tunnels, and what was not allowed? And is that possibly part of the explanation for this falling apart so quickly?

WOLF BLITZER, ANCHOR, CNN'S "THE SITUATION ROOM": The Israelis say they never had any misunderstandings. They say they fully appreciated, they fully understand what they thought were the ground rules of this cease-fire, that they would be allowed to go ahead and continue their operations, the decommissioning, as they call it, of these tunnels. They say that during the 72-hour proposed cease-fire, they would be allowed to do so. And that's what they were doing when they had this incident about an hour and a half, they say, into this cease-fire. Supposed to have started at 8:00 a.m. local time and the incident occurred around 9:30 a.m. Eastern Time.

So they say, from their perspective, there was no misunderstanding. They were dealing with the tunnels. They say they wouldn't have agreed to a cease-fire if they would have had to stop decommissioning or trying to destroy those tunnels, which they see as a major threat and one of their major military objectives in this campaign.

Mark Regev, once again, the spokesman for the prime minister of Israel, is here with us.

Now, Mark Regev, could there have been some confusion that when Israeli troops were moving to destroy those tunnels, the Hamas elements or the Islamic jihad elements or other Palestinian fighters in the area, misunderstood what was going on, they weren't fully briefed on the nuances of this John Kerry/Ban Ki-moon agreement and that's what caused this incident, shall we say?

MARK REGEV, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: A misunderstanding, only if they deliberately wanted it to be a misunderstanding because the ground rulings were clear. I mean we heard about the cease-fire about midnight. That's eight hours before it came into place. Before that it was negotiated between the relevant parties, with both the United Nations and the United States saying they had reached -- received assurances from Hamas that it would abide by the cease-fire. They specifically said Israeli forces could stay where they were in place and that the operation and Secretary Kerry said against the tunnels, to neutralize that threat, could continue.

BLITZER: But that's what Secretary Kerry said in New Delhi, in India. He spelled out what -

REGEV: Before this incident.

BLITZER: Right, he spelled it out. But in the written statement that the U.N. put out, there was no spelling out offensive, defense, tunnels. None of that was in that written statement. So I raise the question, could Hamas have misunderstood? Maybe they weren't listening to the audio or the video statement that John Kerry made. Maybe they were just reading the actual document.

REGEV: Or that they decided they didn't want to give this cease-fire a chance in the first place and they were looking to attack Israeli forces. I mean our forces had received orders not to be involved in offensive operations. Our forces were sitting where they were, doing defensive action, and were only to fire their weapons if fired upon. Now, Hamas opened up fire, killed two our soldiers, kidnapped a third. Unfortunately, that appears to be the situation. We saw, at the same time, mortar shell across the frontier and missiles, rockets into Israeli cities. So Hamas has clearly violated a cease-fire.

BLITZER: But the original violation, do you know for sure it was Hamas, it wasn't Islamic jihad, which you heard Karl Penhaul say they operate in the southern part of Gaza and they operate in some of those tunnels as well?

REGEV: Hamas is not a democratic movement. It's a very authoritarian movement. And it rules Gaza with an iron fist. And it can't subcontract out terrorism. It just can't do that. Any operation, any violence from Gaza, Hamas is responsible and Hamas must be held accountable.

BLITZER: Is there any hope that that cease-fire can now be revived or is that over with?

REGEV: I can clear. We have been working behind the scenes, together with the United States, together with the United Nations, together with the others, to make this cease-fire work. There was very intensive diplomatic activity for days. A package was put together and was put on the table publicly by the United Nations and the United States. We abided by that package. We honored the cease-fire. What can you do when Hamas on one day says they'll honor it and then the next day turns around and does this brutal attack?

BLITZER: So it's over -- so no more revival?

REGEV: I have to say (INAUDIBLE), at the moment, we're concentrating, first of all, on our military operation to try to rescue that soldier. And I hope we succeed. Secondly, we are continuing the operation against the tunnels and against the rockets. I mean Hamas today slammed the door shut on a diplomatically achieved cease-fire. And so we are acting militarily to deal with the Hamas threat, especially the rockets and the tunnels.

BLITZER: Mark Regev, thanks very much.

Jim, I know you read carefully the strong statement that Secretary Kerry released just a little while ago, put out by the State Department. It's a statement that basically is almost completely - and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong -- completely in line with the Israeli version of what happened. We'll get a different version, of course, from Palestinians, especially from Hamas. But it looks like, on this specific incident, who's to blame for the disruption, for the ending of that cease-fire, it looks, at least right now, that the U.S. and Israel pretty much are on the same page.

SCIUTTO: I absolutely agree. And, in fact, they're all using the same term, John Kerry, Josh Earnest, the White House spokesman, Tony Blinken, deputy national security advisor, all referring to this as a, quote, "outrageous violation of the cease-fire agreement."

Wolf Blitzer, thanks very much. Great to have you there right in the middle of it.

Up next, I'm going to be speaking with a Hamas spokesman to get their hard answers to hard questions on how this cease-fire fell apart. Please stay with us. That will be right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

Another cease-fire in the Middle East is broken and the finger- pointing has just started. Joining me now on the phone from Doha, Qatar, to talk about the latest flare-up of violence is the Hamas spokesperson, Osama Hamdan.

Thank you very much for joining us.

I want to begin by asking you this question. Does Hamas claim responsibility for this capture of the Israeli soldier? And is the soldier still alive?

OSAMA HAMDAN, HAMAS SPOKESPERSON: Certainly not. It's clear that the capture of the soldier is an Israeli story and now there is nothing from the resistance saying that there was a capture. So I really - I really want to emphasize that the Israelis have created this story of (INAUDIBLE) and now they are talking inside Israel that they were killed in a criminal accident. Now they are talking about a capture of a soldier as an excuse for invading Rafah and killing more than 70 (ph) Palestinians (INAUDIBLE). Who knows, they may declare after a few hours that they found him and no one will ask after that why they have this number of people just because they claim that he was vanished or disappeared.

SCIUTTO: So to be clear, you are denying that any Israeli soldier has been captured?

HAMDAN: We are clear from our men on the ground, we didn't hear anything about a capture of a soldier.

SCIUTTO: Is it possible that another militant group in Gaza carried this out, for instance, Islamic jihad or another group we don't know about?

HAMDAN: Well, the idea here is why the Israelis have violated the cease-fire and then claim that there is a lost soldier.

This is the big question, which is supposed to be answered by the Israelis and by the Americans who work hard mostly with the Israelis, not with the Palestinian side, to achieve the 72 hours of cease-fire.

We have accepted that, and we were informed there would be no militant actions during the 72 hours, and everyone knows that our people had been committed to the cease-fire clearly and wholeheartedly.

I can assure you, there was no rocket launched. Even after the Israelis have said it's failed, because we're still waiting for the United States and the United Nations to keep the cease-fire working unless they say it's not working.

So we are now saying in a clear voice, the one, the side who violated the cease-fire was the Israelis. They bombed the houses. When the people came back after one hour and a half, checking on their houses, it was bombed. More than 40 Palestinians were killed at the first 30 minutes and now there are still acting in that area. If Hamas wants to violate the cease-fire, that will be done everywhere, not only in this specific point in Rafah, which the Israelis are concentrating on, and we don't know yet why they are doing this.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this question, though. So you say Hamas did not capture a soldier. In fact, you're accusing the Israelis creating the story of a captured soldier.

Was there a firefight between Hamas fighters and Israelis including the use a suicide bomber that the Israelis say resulted in the death of two Israeli soldiers? Was there any gunfire between the two sides around the time of the start of the cease-fire?

HAMDAN (via telephone): OK, this is a good mix of the Israelis. They are trying to mix the fact with the false so the people will say it's all good.

The fact that there was a fight when the Israeli tanks invaded Rafah for a depth of two-and-a-half kilometers at 7:00 a.m. There was shooting in the area to warn them that they are invading the area, and then they shot at the houses and there was a reaction from the Palestinian side.

So the one who started the invasion, the Israelis, at 7:00 a.m., exactly at 6:48 a.m., they started that violation of the cease-fire around -- there was any action before the cease-fire when they invaded Rafah.

This is the point, they are trying to mix the things together, and this is why we ask the United States that we need an observer so they can say who start that, and I believe if there was observers, the Israelis were not there to do that, but knowing there is no observers and the United States would be on the same page with them as all the time, so they did that, being punished or being questioned even.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this question, because under the cease-fire agreement, as it was explained in public by Secretary Kerry and others, Israel was allowed to continue operations against Hamas tunnels behind Israeli lines but inside Gaza.

Were those terms clearly communicated to you? Was it your understanding that Israel would be allowed to use gunfire, tanks, et cetera, to continue to destroy tunnels after the start of the cease- fire? Was that your understanding?

HAMDAN (via telephone): Well, I have to be clear in that we were not told about this. All that we have been told is the militants will stay in their positions and no militant activity. This was agreement.

They had to ask the United Nations who said that in clear words and it's recorded. He said that clearly and we accepted that, no militant activities. The militants will stay in their positions.

The Israelis, the tanks moved for two-and-a-half kilometers inside the Palestinian land after what was agreed on. This is the problem. John Kerry is trying to protect the Israeli position.

When he can say -- he was supposed to say well the Israelis have done something wrong. We are sure this can be solved. And let's keep the cease-fire. And if he did that, there will be a position -- a positive position from the resistance.

But unfortunately, he is just condemning the killing and the capture the Israeli soldiers. What are they doing there? Why they were there? This is the question which was supposed to be asked.

SCIUTTO: Mr. Hamdan, I want to thank you very much. I want to remind my viewers what you just told us here.

You say that Hamas did not take an Israeli soldier. You accuse Israel of creating this story. You said as well that Hamas was not told operations were allowed to continue against tunnels during the cease- fire.

Thank you very much for taking the time now.

I want to tell our viewers as well, we're now waiting for a comment from the U.N. as the U.N. under-secretary-general for political affairs, Jeffrey Feltman.

After this break, we're going to go live to the United Nations where he's going to be speaking at a press conference. He helped negotiate this cease-fire. He's going to give us details about what happens next.

Thanks very much for joining us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: We're going to take you now to the United Nations where Jeffrey Feltman -- he's the under-secretary-general for political affairs -- is now speaking at a press conference about this breakdown of the Gaza cease-fire.

Here are his comments right now.

JEFFREY FELTMAN, UNITED NATIONS UNDER-SECRETARY-GENERAL FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS: -- questions they're covering everything.

There was a very complicated and strong diplomatic effort to arrive at the statement that was made last night by the secretary-general and U.S. Secretary of State Kerry that included a lot of regional international actors as well as of course contacts with the parties. The Egyptians, the Qataris, the Turks played an important role as well.

What was important was that we received assurances. We received assurances from the parties that they would observe a 72-hour humanitarian cease-fire that was supposed to begin at 8:00 this morning, local time.

We didn't offer the assurances. We were basing this on assurances that we had received directly and via the parties that were involved in trying to get to this point.

Our goal of course was very clear. We need to end the killing. We needed to push to get those types of assurances. And the secretary- general's statement says he's profoundly, profoundly disappointed that the cease-fire seems to have lasted for maybe 90 minutes this morning.

It's, you know, a tragic loss of opportunity for both sides to end the cycle of fear and suffering. We need to find a way to get back to that.

I think that Stefan (ph) has probably talked already about the situation now but you've asked me.

We see instead of calm today, instead of seeing Palestinian families out, able to tend to their daily needs, burying the dead, caring for the wounded, instead, we see escalation.

And it's -- the secretary-general is quite, quite upset about this. And we're -- looking to see how the same partners can work together to try to get back to where we hoped to be last night when the statement was released.

This is not going to be easy. I think all of us have seen situations where -- in the past where there have been captures of Israeli soldiers, and that has -- I think anyone would have predicted that was going to lead to escalation, so now we have to figure out how to get away from the escalation back to a cease-fire.

Of course the secretary-general in his statement did call for the immediate and unconditional release of the soldier that was reported missing and reported captured.

UNIDENTIFIED: Ali (ph), if you guys could just -- we're going to get a lot of questions. Stick to one question. We have time to get everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Stefan (ph), and thank you, Mr. Feltman.

In fact, Hamas -- the reality is Hamas is a major and other party in this conflict. Do you think that you should talk to Hamas directly or maybe talk -- let's say you've been promoting Iran in the region, in the conflict, in Syria, in Lebanon, to talk to Iran. Do you believe you should talk directly to Hamas, or you should talk to Iran?

And I have another question on Syria. What kind of relationship you're maintaining with the figures in the regime, especially (inaudible)? Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's try to stick to Gaza and the one question. Thanks, Ali.

FELTMAN: The -- I think Robert Serry has said before, and I'll paraphrase what he said, we could not do our job as the United Nations if we didn't have a way to talk to all parties.

We need to be able to have channels of communication where all the parties, that includes Hamas, know our views, where we are able to hear from all parties. I'm not going to go into tactically how we do this, but I want to assure you, Ali (ph), that we -- Hamas knows how to get information to us, to reach us, to debate things with us. We know how to reach Hamas.

But the assurances that were there last night from the parties were assurances that not only we received but were also conveyed to others.