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Don Lemon Tonight

Changing Face of Terror; Cease-Fire in Gaza; Interview With Sen. Chuck Schumer

Aired August 06, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Alisyn Camerota in New York.

Tonight, the changing face of terror. From teenagers to grandmothers, more women are being recruited by terrorists. We will tell you how some popular Web sites that your teenaged daughters may well already visit are luring them to hook up with terrorists.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Alisyn.

Progress in this region is measured in very small steps. So it's encouraging that the skies are quiet tonight over Jerusalem and Israel and Gaza. And there may be progress in Cairo.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have no sympathy for Hamas. I have great sympathy for ordinary people who are struggling within Gaza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The price of even this temporary peace has been very high for the people of Gaza. And in a region where everything is politicized, both sides are battling over the body count. We will ask the experts what is the real toll.

CAMEROTA: Plus, Jake, it's a bird, it's a plane? No. It's a drone. And it may be hovering out your window. One senator says it's time to regulate these things. We will tell you his plan.

And caught on camera, a ruthless shooting. But it's the bystanders' reactions that you have to see to believe.

But we begin tonight with the very latest from the Middle East. So, let's go back to Jake Tapper in Jerusalem -- Jake.

TAPPER: Thanks, Alisyn.

Joining me now is Erel Margalit. He's a Labor Party member of the Knesset, the parliament here in Israel. And he's founder and chairman of Jerusalem Venture Partners. We're going to talk to him about what is going on right now.

Thank you so much for being here, Mr. Margalit. Right now, the clock is ticking. Just under 30 hours from now, this

72-hour cease-fire expires. Now, we have heard from the Israeli government they want the cease-fire to be extended. We have heard from the Palestinian Authority they want the cease-fire to be extended. Egypt wants it extended. The United States wants it extended.

But I'm hearing that behind closed doors in Cairo, Hamas is balking. It's unclear whether they really want to start firing rockets once again come 8:00 a.m. or 8:01 a.m. on Friday morning, or whether this is just a bargaining technique. What are you hearing?

EREL MARGALIT, ISRAELI PARLIAMENT MEMBER: I think Hamas has been not only difficult in firing, but also very difficult in handling the cease-fire situation.

Israel is very committed to the cease-fire. It's hoping that this could be reciprocated. And it wants to move the process from a battle in the field, which we're committed to having if that's what is necessary, to something that is going to be a lot more a process of trying to calm the region down.

TAPPER: Let me hand this to you for one second. It's just your microphone fell off. I want to make sure that it's working as well as possible here.

So the other question I have for you is, you're a member of the Labor Party. That is obviously the opposition party to Benjamin Netanyahu's party. Now, there is widespread support for retaliation against Hamas for its rockets. Do you look at the military campaign and not have any issues whatsoever with how it was conducted, with whether or not the use of force, as some critics have said, was disproportionate?

MARGALIT: Israel -- the consensus that was built in Israel was not built out of thin air. It was Israel agreed to two cease-fires. Israel tried to bring the situation to a halt.

When the second cease-fire was met with, you know, people coming, Hamas people coming through tunnels into one of the kibbutzim, and the threat was very imminent, Israel had to respond. And the strategic threat, the way that this was -- that came to Israel, all of us felt like terror was something that needed to be addressed.

And now the situation is such that what we want to do is we want to take the -- Egypt, the Palestinian Authority, the moderate Arab states that are standing behind Egypt and see whether together with the military strength that you obviously need when in Gaza, they're building tunnels right into Israel, to see whether in negotiation means we could bring the situation to a different phase.

TAPPER: I get all that and I don't think anybody would begrudge the desire by the Israeli government and the Israel Defense Forces to get rid of the tunnels. But, with all due respect, you didn't really quite answer my question. Do you not look at the use of force in Gaza, 1,800 people killed -- the Israeli Defense Force says maybe 900 of them were militants. That means 900 were innocent civilians. Hundreds of them were

children. Do you not look at that and think maybe it wasn't as accurate as it could have been? Maybe it was -- maybe the use of force was disproportionate? Do you have no compunctions whatsoever about it?

MARGALIT: Well, in war, when civilians are being killed, it's so painful.

And, of course, you ask yourself whether precision could have been greater, whether the surgical strike could have been more accurate. But, you know, when you have a situation -- I come from the Golani Brigade, the special forces of Golani, before I came into the Haifa sector and then into politics.

When you ask yourself, when so many of the fire is coming out of homes, when so many of the tunnels are coming out of the home and into the direction of Israel, you ask yourself what it is that you could have done better. Probably things could have been done a little better here and there. But, you know, this is war.

And once McNamara said the fog of war, when things are very heated, when people are coming at you with more rockets or with more fire and more fire, obviously, you do what you can to defend yourself. And every one of the Israelis did not get into Gaza because of hate, did not get into Gaza because one of the soldiers wanted to revenge. They came into Gaza because they wanted and we wanted to give a normal, creative life to the citizens.

TAPPER: Yes. I'm not so sure General McNamara is who I would be quoting at a time like this.

But, in any case, I want to ask about your specific background, your approach. You're a businessman in addition to being a politician. You say that you want a new approach to Gaza. You -- what are you talking about? What do you want to do? What do you want to provide to the people of Gaza?

MARGALIT: Well, I think that the negotiations that are going on right now, the fact that Israel has allies in Jordan, in Egypt, in the Palestinian Authority is something that we want to bring to the table, to the process.

And I can remember in the West Bank when there were suicide bombers when it was very difficult. And here what we have in Ramallah, we had the approach of having international companies come in between Israel and the West Bank. We have Cisco. We have Intel. We have all kinds of technology initiatives that are going on.

In the south, we have one of the biggest cyber-security parks that is being built, creating a shield for the world, so to speak, a virtual shield with American companies, with international companies.

TAPPER: Right.

MARGALIT: So what we're saying, maybe the political negotiations could be coupled with business approaches and negotiations as well, like an industrial zone between Israel and Gaza that was dismantled by the Hamas.

Maybe now the world can give this a guarantee, maybe hospitals, maybe schools, maybe --

TAPPER: Right.

MARGALIT: -- maybe water desalination, things that could be a win- win that could be brought into the process just like we did in the south, just like we did in the north of Israel, just like we did with the West Bank, when things were looking very difficult to add that to the political process because the start-up nation mentality could be brought to some of the negotiations.

TAPPER: From your lips.

Mr. Margalit, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: As with anything this conflict, even the body counts, the official body counts come down to whose side you're on, who you're supporting.

The Palestinians say 1,865 of their people have been killed in this conflict. That, of course, includes militants. The United Nations, human rights groups, and the Israelis, they all use different numbers.

CAMEROTA: So, Jake, how do we know the real number of civilian casualties?

Let's Matthias Behnke of the Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights.

Mr. Behnke, thanks for joining us. Mr. Behnke, can you hear me?

MATTHIAS BEHNKE, OFFICE OF THE U.N. HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: OK.

As you know, there are big discrepancies in terms of different agencies saying that there are different numbers of civilian casualties. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

I will put a graphic up on the screen for you. There are 1,800 roughly Palestinians who have been killed in the past month. There is a group called the Al Mezan Center For Human Rights. It's a Gaza group. They say that 82 percent of those casualties were civilians.

Then there is the Palestinian Center for Human Right, also based in Gaza. They say 84 percent of those killed were civilians. The United Nations say that 72 percent of those killed were civilians. And Israel says roughly 50 percent of those killed during this conflict have been civilians. So why is there so much confusion?

BEHNKE: Well, I mean, first, I would say in dealing with an armed conflict with hostilities ongoing, the organizations that are working on the ground have been looking to collect information as hostilities go on.

And that's not been a straightforward thing. So, what we said from the U.N. side is the figures that we provide are preliminary figures. Now in terms of methodology, when it comes to us, the Office of the U.N. High Commission for Human Rights, we're compiling this information, which is initial information, based initially from the media reports and then other sources.

And then we work together with a number of organizations, both Palestinian and Israeli, as well as our U.N. partners, to crosscheck and verify reports and see whether individuals are civilians or combatants. That's a process where we tally the numbers from different organizations and look at the information we have.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and I'm sure it's painstaking. But Mr. Behnke, let's say that you find the body of a 35-year-old man. How do you determine if he was a part of Hamas?

BEHNKE: Well, as I said, we try to cross-verify between different organizations.

That's not only media, but also it's human rights organizations. But we also look at other sources. For instance, the IDF sometimes releases numbers of alleged fighters that they have killed, but also armed groups will claim that their members have been killed and are martyrs and will announce that and so on.

So, it's a process that goes all on all the time. We will get closer to a more accurate figure if hostilities do not resume, because we can go out and talk to people. And Gaza is a place where people do know each other. People have knowledge of what the different people are doing and so on. So the figure will get more and more precise as we collect more and more data.

CAMEROTA: Mr. Matthias Behnke, thanks for explaining the process to us.

And when we come back, we will have much more on what these casualty figures mean and how they get used as political propaganda for both sides. We will debate that.

Also, the women of terror, how extremists are recruiting women from all over the world and just how dangerous these women might be and how they're recruiting them.

Plus, the caught-on-tape shooting that gets even worse when bystanders callously step over the victim.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TAPPER: Welcome back.

Amid all the charges and countercharges over the body count in Gaza, one thing seems clear. More Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli soldiers. The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reports that as of yesterday, 408 children had been killed. That's more than the 221 Israeli soldiers that have died in military operations over the past eight years.

Joining me now, Peter Beinart, CNN political commentator and a columnist for the Israeli newspaper "Haaretz," and Ben Shapiro, editor-in-chief of TruthRevolt.org.

Gentlemen, good to see both of you. Thanks for being here.

Peter, let me start with you. We're talking about the issue of civilians and civilian deaths in Gaza. Let's listen again to what President Obama said about that today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: No sympathy for Hamas. I have great sympathy for ordinary people who are struggling within Gaza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The president also reiterated the right of Israel to defend itself against rocket attacks. What did you make of his comments today?

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He is exactly right. Israel does have the right to defend itself. It also needs some better guarantees against Hamas rockets.

I was in Israel with my 6-year-old daughter during the first week of the war. We were in and out of shelters. It's very frightening. But ordinary Palestinians also need some relief from a blockade that has destroyed the Gazan economy and actually helped Hamas.

The blockade has destroyed the independent business class in Gaza by making exports virtually impossible. It's made it very difficult for Gazan fishermen to go a few miles out beyond the coast. Beyond that being a humanitarian disaster, it actually strengthens Hamas by creating -- strengthening the climate of despair and hatred on which Hamas feeds.

CAMEROTA: You know, it's impossible to know the real numbers. We just put up a graphic that shows all the disparities in terms of how many civilians have been killed. The two top numbers there are groups in Gaza. They say that 82 to 84 percent of the casualties have been civilians. The United Nations says 72 percent are civilians. Israel says only about 50 percent. So whose number should we trust?

BEINART: I don't think we know the exact number. Israel --

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Hold on, because Ben -- this is for Ben. Can you hear me, Ben?

(CROSSTALK)

BEINART: Oh, sorry. Please, go ahead, Ben.

BEN SHAPIRO, TRUTHREVOLT.ORG: Yes, I can now. Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

SHAPIRO: As far as whose numbers we should trust, I can tell you whose numbers we shouldn't trust, the same people who said that 5,000 people had been killed in Jenin, which was false, or the same people who said that two-thirds of the people killed in Operation Cast Lead in 2008-2009 were civilians, which turned out to be false, or the same people who have put out on Hamas TV that civilians should stick around in all of the buildings surrounding terrorist entities.

Those people are probably not the folks that we want to trust.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: But are you talking about Hamas putting out the numbers or these human rights groups in Gaza?

SHAPIRO: I'm talking about human rights groups in Gaza which are working with Hamas and Palestinian Authority sources in order to find those numbers.

How do they get those numbers in the first place? You heard the fellow from the U.N. say just a little while ago that they are working with both Palestinian and Israeli sources. The Palestinian sources they are working with on the ground in the Gaza Strip are in large part Hamas, Palestinian Authority or Islamic Jihad sources, who have a great interest in ensuring that the American people and that the rest of the world believe that a huge number of civilians have been killed, which -- it's the same reason why they're putting civilians in front of rockets on a regular basis.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Peter, if I could jump in, I just wanted to ask -- I'm interested in your thoughts on this debate about who is responsible for the deaths of these innocent Palestinians. Obviously, Israel carrying out the military campaign, some individuals, some critics saying it's disproportionate, not as accurate as it should be.

And then you do have evidence that Hamas, or at least militants in Gaza, are firing from population centers, firing from adjacent hospitals. Do you think that it's fair to blame Hamas for the deaths of Palestinians in Gaza?

BEINART: I don't doubt at all that Hamas is pursuing a strategy that is likely to increase civilian casualties by operating from urban areas.

I think Israel is bombing an area which is very, very densely populated with some weapons that are not all precision weapons. And so it's inevitable that a lot of innocent civilians are going to die. And regardless of the number, the Talmud says that whoever destroys a single human life, it's as if he destroyed an entire world.

So, I'm not so interested in the specific numbers. What interests me is, was there a political strategy that could have been pursued against Hamas that would have made -- so this war would not have been possible? What I find most tragic is that when you have peaceful, nonviolent resisters in the West Bank, they are repeatedly imprisoned by Israel.

And so Palestinians get the message that in fact nonviolence doesn't work. The real way to weaken Hamas is to show that people who accept Israel's right to exist and pursue their grievances nonviolently, as people in villages like Balin and Nabi Salih have been doing for a decade now, that they get results. And, tragically, this Israeli government has not done that.

CAMEROTA: Ben, do you want to take a crack at that?

SHAPIRO: Sure.

The nonsensical idea that Hamas is firing rockets because somehow they're mad about imprisonments in the West Bank or that they would stop firing rockets if Israel were to release the prisoners that it holds is nonsensical and idiotic.

In fact, Israel has just done multiple prisoner releases with regard to terrorists vis-a-vis Israeli soldiers, and that has not seemed to quell anything with regard to Hamas. When Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, that launched the election of Hamas and then further violence.

The idea that if Israel makes more and more concessions, that will somehow not embolden Hamas, as opposed to creating a movement against Hamas, that has not been proved by history in any way, shape or form. Peter always finds a way to ensure that Israeli policy is somehow responsible for rockets falling on Israeli cities, when it's really Hamas doing the firing.

BEINART: No. I'm actually talking about Palestinians who protest nonviolently in conjunction with Israelis.

The irony to me is that actually Ben and Hamas have an enormous amount in common. Hamas doesn't believe that Jews should be allowed to live in the state of Israel. Ben has said that Palestinians don't have the right to live in Israel, West Bank or Gaza, because he's called for physically expelling all of them. So, in fact, the true moral and ideological partners, Ben, are you and Hamas.

CAMEROTA: Ben, go ahead.

SHAPIRO: That is absolute nonsense, Peter. BEINART: You didn't write that column in --

(CROSSTALK)

SHAPIRO: And to call me equivalent with people who are murdering Jews is insanity. It's beyond insulting.

And if there is anybody who is emboldening Hamas to kill more children, it is you, because it's you're policies which have emboldened Hamas. They know that people like you are going to get on American television and talk about how the Palestinians are meek victims and whenever they fire rockets, it can be justified by Israeli policy. Hamas celebrates every moment you're on television, Peter.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: All right, gentlemen, that's it. It's impossible to have this conversation obviously without some level of inflammatory rhetoric.

But we thank both of you for your perspective on this, Ben Shapiro, Peter Beinart.

And Jake, thanks so much for being there in Jerusalem. We will see you tomorrow afternoon at 4:00 Eastern on "THE LEAD."

And when we come back --

TAPPER: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: -- we want to talk about the new and surprising face of terror around the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: When you hear the word terrorist, a certain image comes to mind. And that image is almost always male.

But there is a new face of terror. Young women are being recruited by groups like ISIS in some creative ways, and not just for martyrdom, but for marriage. And it just might be working.

CNN's Stephanie Elam has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There is leaning in, and then there is arming up.

MIA BLOOM, AUTHOR, "BOMBSHELL: WOMEN AND TERRORISM": The idea that women can be involved in jihad is something that people still don't take as seriously as they should.

ELAM: Women around the world are now taking part in jihad in Nigeria, Syria, and now in America, the number of women willing to give their lives to terrorist extremists, experts say, increasing over the last 10 years.

BLOOM: We have seen Western women going to jihad in Syria for about a year-and-a-half now.

ELAM: Why now? Experts believe terror group organizers count on women from Europe, Canada, and the U.S. to get past terrorism intelligence agencies.

BLOOM: It's Western women. They come with their Western passports. They're going to fall under a radar screen. Majority of the women are going to be there to be traditional wives.

ELAM: But that's not always the case. Take American Shannon Conley. The 19-year-old is charged with conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists. She reportedly fell in love with an ISIS fighter online and allegedly was on her way to join him in Syria before officials picked her up in April.

BLOOM: She was interviewed no fewer than nine times before her arrest by the FBI because she was scoping out a local church.

ELAM: Her attorney had no comment. Many of these women are radicalized at home, seduced on the Internet.

(on camera): How are they appealing to these Western women?

JEFFREY SIMON, AUTHOR, "LONE WOLF TERRORISM: UNDERSTANDING THE GROWING THREAT": You don't have to convince that many. If somebody spams millions of people, you only need a certain number that are going to respond to that.

ELAM: The scariest of prospects are the lone wolves, people acting on their own, like Roshonara Choudhry in England. The King's College student dropped out of school just before graduation and tried to assassinate a member of the British Parliament for supporting the Iraq war.

SIMON: She was not radical. She didn't talk about jihad. She just secretly by herself downloaded 100 sermons.

ELAM: Women, some fairly well-known, are also using Twitter to recruit new members from the West.

BLOOM: Like Umm Layth, who is one of the premier female jihadis. She is British. And she is the one that keeps calling to women around the world, especially women in the Western countries, to come and join the global jihad. They think that they're doing something good for their community or their people.

ELAM: A darker side of the fairer sex now wanted around the world.

Stephanie Elam, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: All right. Joining us now to discuss this is Rita Katz. She was born in Iraq,

and she spends hours each day monitoring the online chat rooms of Islamic terrorists. She is the director of a group called the Search for International Terrorist Entities, or SITE.

Rita, great to have you here.

RITA KATZ, DIRECTOR, SEARCH FOR INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST ENTITIES: Thank you for having me.

CAMEROTA: OK.

So, as we understand it from the piece that we just saw and the research that we have done, groups like ISIS are recruiting a new crop of young women to clean and cook and marry and bear children for this next generation of their fighters.

That doesn't sound like such a great deal for a Western woman. How are they luring them?

KATZ: Well, the situation is much bigger than that, actually -- especially when the war in Syria have started. We have noticed a change in the ideology and the propaganda in recruitment of women. We know, I mean, the issue of having women participate in Jihad is not new.

We have heard about two-side operations executed by women back from the late '70s actually, as early as that. And, we have seen suicide operations by women even in Iraq. Even Zarqawi's group, Abu Musab al- Zarqawi, which has currently based on the Islamic Caliphate or ISIS. He had used female suicide bombers in planting their attack suicide operations in Jordan in 2005.

CAMEROTA: Yes. But what is difference now, it is not just for martyrdom, it is for matrimony.

KATZ: Exactly. Exactly. And, what is different now is the call for women to join the Jihad in Syria is specifically not for Jihad, military Jihad, physical Jihad, but in order to marry the Muslim man that is suitable for her that will be assigned to her in order to raise kids.

CAMEROTA: Right.

KATZ: And to assist the Mujahid with whatever he needs. And, that is what they are calling for today.

CAMEROTA: OK. So, let's look at some of these tweets, OK? That are being used to lure these women. Here is a tweet. This is allegedly from a British woman who says she is married to a Syrian fighter. This is online. She says, "Allahu Akbar. There is no way to describe the feeling of sitting with the sisters waiting on news of whose husband has attained martyrdom." So, I mean who is susceptible to this type of inducement?

KATZ: I mean, you can see on a daily basis hundreds of women communicate with these women. Just today, we heard the news that in Spain two girls were arrested as they were going and trying to cross the border through Morocco to go to Syria and participate in this Jihad. One of them is 16 years old and the other is 19.

I mean it goes to the point where this cause really -- are aimed towards Muslim's women in the west. Women that have been part of our education. Women that have been part of our society. As part of the same tweets of online, somebody asked my sister is only 16. Can she come? And the answer was, "Yes, because everyone is welcome." And, it is clear that the --

CAMEROTA: I just want to raise -- you bring up a great point, and I just want to make this point before we let you go. The way they are getting to the teenagers is that they are using some websites that are commonplace websites among teenagers like askfm that is viewed even U.S. teenagers frequent sometimes. So, is that how they are getting at westerners?

KATZ: It is much broader than that, because there are propaganda that is being done by Jihad groups today, Nusra and Islamic State or ISIS is something that only when you really are exposed to it, you can understand and appreciate what makes people join Jihad. What makes men go.

I mean, we have thousands of fighters from the western world now in Syria and Iraq. The amount of propaganda is unbelievable. But, when we are talking about the type of website, we are actually talking not about something that is hard to access. We are talking about the social media.

CAMEROTA: Right.

KATZ: We are talking about -- you just mentioned --

CAMEROTA: You are right. Twitter.

KATZ: -- we are talking about Twitter. We are talking about Tumblr, Blog, we are talking about ask.fm.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KATZ: And, the reason that these are being used is that one of the most important weapons that we have today in this kind of war is the social media that they can use from their smart phones.

CAMEROTA: Yes, excellent point.

KATZ: You do not need computers or anything.

CAMEROTA: Right. Rita. Thank you for all this information. I will tweet out some links for people to see, so that they can educate themselves about this. It is great to have your expertise. Thanks so much for coming on.

KATZ: My pleasure. Thank you very much. CAMEROTA: All right. Meanwhile, if you think drones are just flying

around war zones, you may not have looked outside lately. We will tell you what one politician wants to do about the drones at home. But first, here is your "Sixties Minute."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: These days you can buy a drone at the mall and fly it pretty much anywhere. Just today a tourist crashed one into a hot spring at Yellowstone National Park. CNN's Miguel Marquez has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They are not just for the military anymore, where killing or keeping an eye on one's enemy is the goal. As our Karl Penhaul recently found out in Gaza.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARL PENHAUL, INTERNATIONAL JOURNALIST: The drones overhead quite clearly spotting some target.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: Today, they come in all shapes, all sizes, and they can go where no flying machine has gone before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PARKER GYOKERES, PROPELLERHEADS AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY OWNER: This is an industry where you waiting to explode. This is an industry waiting to change the way we see our world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: Parker Gyokeres sees a sky-high future in drones, like many he is frustrated by the federal government that have crossed the board ban from the use of them for commercial purposes. The FAA right now says no commercial use at all. That right?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: The FAA right now says no commercial use at all, is that right?

GYOKERES: The FAA has ruled that these are unauthorized for commercial use.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: A budding industry in need of direction, ready to take off in ways you might not imagine. From dream-like weddings to real estate listings creating curb and air appeal. Search and rescue companies, private investigators, law enforcement

agency, companies of all shapes and sizes, then of course there are the video artists who have found new ways to explore our world. The results, breathtaking.

Even in the news business, drones open a window on the world. The problem is CNN and so many other organizations have now been barred from using drones in their work by the FAA. We can use them indoors, places like this. But, it is a little tough to cover a news story from a newsroom.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: But, drones present a whole new range of problems as well. Several close calls reported with airliners near airports.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We saw a drone, a drone aircraft.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: This one at New York's JFK nearly hit an inbound Alitalia flight. It could have been devastating. Oh, and those dream-like wedding videos? Sometimes they can be a nightmare. Privacy concerns, who is watching who, and with what. Security concerns from terrorism to crime like when a drone unsuccessfully tried to make a delivery to a maximum security prison in South Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GYOKERES: There is a potential for misuse of any technology. What we are asking for is the opportunity to provide clear guidelines to use these as responsibly as we know how.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: A new industry ready to blast off, so long as the government, the FAA does not try to shoot it down. Miguel Marquez, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Miguel Marquez, thanks for showing us all that. Senator Chuck Schumer is leading the crackdown on drones.

Senator Schumer, thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D) NEW YORK: I am glad to be here.

CAMEROTA: OK. Before we get to your plan for drones, can we just talk about the news of the day and the piece process that it is ongoing in Cairo. What do you know about whether or not the U.S. has been somehow cut out of this process or sidelined?

SCHUMER: Well, I think that we are sort of hovering over it. You know, if the -- at the end of the day Hamas is greatly weakened and more moderate Palestinians can get involved, I think there is a real chance for a long-term cessation of any hostility, and maybe even better than that. So, I hope that is what happens.

CAMEROTA: We hoped that that is what happens as well. All right. Let's talk about something that you said about the use of drones that are now ubiquitous throughout New York City and the rest of the country. You called it the Wild West. Why? What is the problem with drones?

SCHUMER: Here is what happened. Drones do many good things. They are great for law enforcement. They are used to fight forest fires, see where they are, many other places. But, there are some danger too, safety.

We do not want a drone flying into the engine of a jetliner and causing mayhem, and privacy. You do not want a drone hovering outside your office window, your living room window or even your bedroom window.

And, a few months ago, the courts threw out any regulations on drones. So, we need some regulations. We need to keep drones for their useful purposes, but make sure that they do not interfere with our safety or our privacy.

CAMEROTA: And, senator, you are not alone in thinking that there need to be some sort of regulations on drones. 35 states have considered some legislation. Five states have passed laws. We have here some map up right now of the states that have passed laws that have regulate the use of drones. But, why not just leave it to the states? Why do you need a federal law?

SCHUMER: Well, this is something that really requires federal regulation, first. Densely populated areas like New York -- you do not want New Jersey regulating a New York drone. You can use national regulations. And, there ought to be set rules. This is going to be a new way of doing many different things.

And, I think even though who are involved would rather have one national rule than a bunch. The FAA has always been in charge of our skies. We do not have separate laws to tell airplanes how to fly over New York versus Illinois versus Florida. And, it ought to be the same for drones.

CAMEROTA: Amazon reportedly wants to use drones to deliver your packages and books, et cetera. Are you afraid that any sort of federal regulations would get in the way of commerce or somehow for business?

SCHUMER: Well, the federal regulations should be done in a smart way and thread the needle, allowing commerce and the useful uses of drones; but, at the same time putting limitations on privacy. For instance, do we want to allow private investigators to use drones and follow any of us around without our knowledge or permission?

So, the real privacy issues. But maybe there are some who say we should not have drones. I am not one of those. I think they serve many useful purposes. And smart regulation can save the baby and throw out the bath water.

CAMEROTA: Senator, I am just curious. Have you ever flown a drone?

SCHUMER: Well, you do not fit in a drone. But, have I ever manipulated one?

CAMEROTA: Yes. Have you ever gone to park or something and flown one around?

SCHUMER: No. I have held one. I have looked at them but I have never flown one myself.

CAMEROTA: They are kind of fun. You should try it.

SCHUMER: Yes. I bet they are. I bet they are. And, you know, that would be allowed under the rules if it is done in a right way.

CAMEROTA: Got it. Senator Chuck Schumer, thanks for joining us.

SCHUMER: Nice to talk to you. Bye-bye.

CAMEROTA: All right. And, up next, a brutal shooting in New York is caught on camera. There were witnesses, why they did nothing.

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CAMEROTA: A shocking crime in New York City was caught on camera. But, what is really stunning is the reaction of bystanders. CNN's Susan Candiotti has the story with some very disturbing images.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: About 7 seconds. That is how long it takes to fire several bullets into a man on the floor of a Bronx store before the shooter starts pistol-whipping him. Notice the drink in the attacker's left hand? He never spills a drop.

Just when you hope help is on the way, keep watching as one man walks by, then another, neither of them stopping to help. But wait. Here is one more, but he keeps going. Finally, this man holding a phone does not even pause. Look at the victim's feet shaking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: To look at this is disgusting. What do you think?

JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It looks like a callous disregard of human life. The way that the people who were in that area were just walking over the body. Four or five people just disregarding that individual as if he was some sort of a dog.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: But hold on. These bystanders are not strangers. Police say they just finished shooting an amateur rap video outside. Bullets started flying after the now bleeding man spit in the gunman's face. Psychologist, Jeff Gardere.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARDERE: There is no danger because the man is lying on the ground and the shooter was already gone. And, they knew one another. So, this makes this even much more callous and horrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: It happens more than you might think, like this scene from 2012. Bystanders do nothing to help this 86-year-old World War II vet in Detroit, who gets carjacked at a gas station. No one lifts a finger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AARON BRANTLEY, 86-YEAR-OLD WORLD WAR II VET: I wonder while he was passing me, if he saw me crawling and knew something was wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Earlier this year in Cincinnati, a crowd stands by as two women are stripped naked and beaten. Police say the attackers are getting back at the victims for ironically, not helping them during another incident.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARDERE: It is almost that whole idea of every man and in this case every man and woman for themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: Back in New York in May, it looked like no one would stop to help this man. He is attacked, hurled against a wall and kicked in the head. Several people walk by before a woman finally stops. The 68-year-old man died the next day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARDERE: They do not even say, "Oh my God, what is going on." They are just walking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: The man in this video is still fighting for his life. Police looking for the shooter. As for the others --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARDERE: But, I just hope for humanity's sake when they see this video that they are in what happened and the callous disregard that now they do feel awful about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CANDIOTTI: As awful as we feel watching it. Susan Candiotti, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: I want to bring in Lou Palumbo. He is a retired Nassau County Police Officer and he is the director of Elite Intelligence and Protection. Lou, great to see you. So, when you watch this video, this surveillance video from the Bronx, what is going on there?

LOU PALUMBO, DIRECTOR OF ELITE INTELLIGENCE AND PROTECTION: It is the norm.

CAMEROTA: No! That is not the norm. That level of callousness, stepping over a body?

PALUMBO: Absolutely. Done every day. You have to understand that. This is part of their culture. What this is more significant in statement is the fact there is a major disconnect between our culture, say how middle class white people live and people of color living in indigent neighborhoods.

CAMEROTA: But, wait a minute. When you say their culture, you mean gang members, right? Is that what we are seeing there? Gang members?

PALUMBO: Not necessarily. That is conjecture.

CAMEROTA: But, Lou, hold on a second. This is not how poor people act. Poor people help each other.

PALUMBO: I do not think that this has anything to do with your economic background. It has more to do with the cultural issue and the disconnect we have between the inner cities and what happens in mainstream America. That is the civil reality.

CAMEROTA: You said indigent. You said this is inner city indigent people.

PALUMBO: Absolutely.

CAMEROTA: But, that is not commonplace.

PALUMBO: It certainly is. It is more commonplace than you realize. All of these young men and women they grew up in the same neighbourhood. They know each other. They are not going to rat each other out. They do not have relationships with law enforcement. And they are this callous.

And, as you can tell from this episode, this individual had a little bit of a personal attachment to it, which is supported by the fact that not only did he shoot him seven times with what appears to be a 45 automatic pistol, but he was not content with that. He beat him with the pistol. So, it lends itself to how personal this really was and people just walking over him. It is just another day in paradise. CAMEROTA: But, it is possible that what we are seeing there is not

apathy, but fear? They do not want to show dissension. If that was a gang, they do not want to show dissension from the guy with the gun.

PALUMBO: No. It is callous. What you saw there was just pure callous. And, that is what this is about and that is part of the culture. They grow up this way. They are in a complete disconnect from mainstream America.

I do not want to go on a tangent, but when we talk about regentification of the neighborhoods, we do not regentify them for the minorities that live there. We do it with the expectation that upwardly middle class children are going to come in there and become new residents.

CAMEROTA: I have to disagree with you. I just do not believe that this is what you see every day regardless of the neighborhood or regardless of the socio-economic group. I mean that is why this is so shocking is because we have never seen -- well, not never. We have not in recent memory seen anything this heinous. So, it cannot be happening every day.

PALUMBO: It is happening every day. Perhaps, not as frequently in our city as it is in other cities. But, I will tell you, when you look at a city like Chicago with a gang and a drug problem where you have in excess of 100 shootings over the fourth of July weekend, people have this callous.

CAMEROTA: Lou, on that note, I am sorry. We have to leave it there. Thanks for your expertise. We will be right back.

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CAMEROTA: That is it for us "Tonight." Thank you so much for watching. AC360 starts right now.