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Will ISIS Try to Hit American Targets?; Is the U.S. at War in Iraq Again?; Maliki Standing His Ground; What's Next in the Flight 17 Investigation?; Special Ebola Serum Only in the U.S.;

Aired August 10, 2014 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And this hour, we are fast forwarding to the week ahead. We'll be focusing on several big stories that are developing here at home and overseas, including the latest cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, hopefully the last before the two sides can broker a permanent peace deal.

We have a live picture there of Jerusalem just one hour into that latest cease-fire.

We're also following developments on the latest airstrikes by the U.S. in Iraq. A deadly crash involving a NASCAR star, and the growing Ebola outbreak in Africa.

We begin now with our five questions for the week ahead. And question number one, will ISIS militants retaliate for U.S. airstrikes by trying to hit American targets, such as the embassy in Baghdad?

Right now, ISIS controls Iraq's largest hydro electric dam. A failure of that dam could be catastrophic, resulting in flooding all the way down to Baghdad. We are going to discuss what ISIS may aim for in the week ahead.

Question number two, is the U.S. back at war with Iraq and should it be? President Obama vows combat troops will not hit the ground, but some experts, many former generals, officials, aren't so sure, given ISIS' growing cache of weapons, fighters and its evolving strategy.

I want to hear your thoughts so please tweet me @Jimsciutto, that's J- I-M-S-C-I-U-T-T-O. I'm going to read some of your responses on the air.

Question number three, what does Pope Francis hope to accomplish by sending an envoy to Iraq? Cardinal Fernando Filoni is set to leave Rome tomorrow heading to Iraq to campaign for action to help Christians and other displaced minorities fleeing those ISIS militants. But can this cardinal make any kind of impact on the ground?

And question number four, will Israel and Hamas really stop shooting at each for 72 hours? That is the latest agreement at least in theory, three days to let negotiators in Cairo try to hammer out a longer term deal, acceptable of course to both sides that will result in something of a lasting peace. But all the players here are very stubborn we know. Israel says no peace talks until rockets stop launching from Gaza and Hamas says if Israel does not show up, they will walk, too.

And question number five, what is next for NASCAR driver Tony Stewart? He pulled out of today's race in Watkins Glen, New York, after he struck and killed a fellow driver during a dirt track race last night. It is under investigation. Will he face charges in the days to come?

Back to question number one now. Will brutal ISIS militants retaliate for U.S. airstrikes by trying to hit American targets?

Just today, fresh U.S. strikes, five of them, demolished five ISIS targets in northern Iraq. ISIS is considered the world's most dangerous jihadi group, known for brutal executions, even beheading children.

Joining me now to discuss is retired Major General James Williams. He's the former commander of the 4th Marine Division and Matthew Hoh is a former Marine Corps captain as well and a former State Department official in Afghanistan.

General, I wonder if I could start with you. I have spoken to U.S. intelligence officials for weeks now who have talked about the threat from ISIS, both based in Syria and Iraq, to American interests. The concern that they send some of the many foreign fighters fighting alongside them now home to Europe and the U.S. to carry out attacks.

In your view, does that make this a direct threat to U.S. national security, which then calls for direct military action, not just the airstrikes, but more longer term military action to stop ISIS in Iraq?

MAJ. GEN. JAMES WILLIAMS (RET.), FORMER COMMANDER, 4TH MARINE DIVISION: Well, Jim, I think one of the big challenges right now for the administration is that there has to be a coherent strategy that's communicated properly to not only the American people, but also to U.S. forces as well as our allies. And ISIS is a determined group. ISIS has great will. ISIS has great experience. And I'm sure some of the ISIS fighters are some of the former Iraqi and Syrian fighters that have great military experience.

And unless somebody gets down to confront them, you know, civilian populations and Iraqi forces who run away aren't going to do it. So I think they will do whatever they feel that they can do because they have the will to do it.

SCIUTTO: A sobering thought. The U.S. back into war in Iraq potentially.

Matthew, I want to talk to you because you spent time in Afghanistan. ISIS has many things that al Qaeda in Afghanistan never did. It's got a huge piece of territory, crossing two countries, Syria and Afghanistan. It's got many more foreign fighters fighting inside, particularly Western fighters, Europeans, more than 1,000. Americans, more than 100, with the ability to go home, potentially, and carry out attacks. The U.S. went to war against al Qaeda in Afghanistan and many partners

in that war. Had U.N. backing. Is ISIS a threat on a par with al Qaeda, post-9/11 or possibly even a greater threat that requires military action?

MATTHEW HOH, FORMER MARINE CORPS CAPTAIN: Well, Jim, thank you for having me on, and that's a great question and it's a good thing to compare the two because it's very difficult to compare them. The thing that makes ISIS so different from al Qaeda in that what makes them more of an insurgent group in many ways than a terrorist organization is, one, they haven't carried out attacks overseas yet, also two, they have a constituency. They have found partnership with the Sunni populations in both Syria and Iraq and that's where the biggest danger comes from.

And so my concern with our policy is that we'll try a military policy towards ISIS, which will further push ISIS -- I'm sorry, push the Sunni population towards ISIS because they'll see us as backing one side in a civil war, you know, backing the Shia or backing the Kurds against them. And we have -- we have a very challenged policy approach anyway, right, Jim, because a year ago at this time, many of the same people who were arguing to put troops on the ground, to get us involved in Iraq's civil war, were arguing to get us involved in Syria's civil war.

And what is so absurd about it and that's so concerning to me is that if we had gotten involved in Syria's civil war last year, then we would have basically been on the same side as ISIS in Syria. So I think we have to really take a step back here and look at what we are doing.

And the other thing, too, is people keep talking about the political solution here, but all I hear are military efforts. If the political problem is that the Sunnis in Iraq are disenfranchised from the Shia government, then how is bombing the Sunnis on behalf of the Shia government going to solve that political problem?

And so that's something I think we really have to look at, what's the actual political solution here that separates ISIS from the Sunni population so that they can -- so that they can then be dwindled, that they can become marginalized as a franchise and then you can use law enforcement approaches to go after a terror group as opposed to having militarily fight what ISIS now is, which is really an insurgent group.

SCIUTTO: Matthew makes a great point, General. ISIS was on the same side effectively against Assad. Interestingly the president last fall decided not to launch airstrikes against the Syrian government, which ISIS was fighting but he had decided to launch strikes against ISIS, which, you know, as Matthew explained, on the other side of the battle there.

I wonder, when you look at that and you look at the region, not just Iraq, not just Syria, do you see a lack of administration strategy or at least an articulated administration strategy in the region?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think it's a little bit confusing. For example, you know, Matthew's right. You know, we -- if we were involved in Syria, we might have been on the side of ISIS, but at the end of the day, we said we drew a red line. The problem is we drew the red line and nothing occurred or very little occurred. And so ultimately the question is it's not only the region. I think it's the entire Sunni part of Islam that is looking at this because it's 90 percent of Islam.

And so depending on how we approach that, I don't know what kind of response we may get from other Sunni populations around the world, so that could cause dangers to the United States if we are not careful on how we handle this and whether we are really committed to it. I'm not sure that we're really committed to it yet.

SCIUTTO: Certainly an open question, we know that the president went into this latest military action somewhat reluctantly.

We thank Matthew Hoh very much. General Williams, we're going to ask you to stick around for a little bit to come back after this break.

And coming up, will defending ISIS ultimately mean sending American troops on to the ground in Iraq? We're going to discuss that question right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. And this just into CNN, we are getting some ominous reports out of Baghdad just now. CNN confirming that Iraqi troops and security forces deployed in and around the Green Zone in Baghdad. This is the secure area where many government buildings are and military headquarters, major bridges linking east and west Baghdad closed. We're told that a curfew may be coming any minute.

These moves follow some threatening words from the current Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, refusing, it seems, to step down as prime minister, accusing the president of Iraq of violating the constitution.

Again, these are early developments. They are just coming in. We are confirming them as they come in but ominous signs that this political agreement that the Obama administration and others have placed a great deal of faith in, in terms of the way forward in Iraq, a very serious stumble here and even more ominous signs of troops being deployed, bridges closed and a possible curfew coming.

We're going to continue to follow these developments and give you all the latest. Please stay with us as we do. It's great that we have Marine Major General -- retired Marine Major General James Williams with us now.

General Williams, I wonder if I could ask you for your assessment of these moves now, as you see these security forces deployed there. How worrisome a development do you think that is? Does it look to you like the beginnings of a coup possibly or just a show of force? How do you read them?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think it could be a show of force. I mean, if you're talking about protecting government buildings, there may be a sense that ISIS forces may be closer than everybody thinks at this point. And so depending on what the undercurrent in Baghdad is right now, that could be a great sign for concern. But it may also be a concern that there's a coup afoot. I'm not sure who among the Maliki government would actually cause that coup.

You know, it seems to me that he had pretty good support. So I don't know if this would be something that would be pushed from outside forces or whether this would be inside forces if there is a coup occurring. But I think there could be a much smoother transition of government, if it was allowed.

SCIUTTO: We have Erin McPike at the White House right now.

Erin, you know well that the Obama administration officials have talked repeatedly about how their priorities is a political settlement there, a more inclusive government, brings the Sunnis in, et cetera. So now you have this deadline passing. It had been extended to come up with a new prime minister or agreement on a prime minister, but you have these ominous moves here.

Are you getting any reaction yet from White House officials to what's happening in Baghdad? Are they concerned? Are they watching this closely?

ERIN MCPIKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, we have reached out to the White House for some reaction on that. Still looking to get some reaction for them. I want to point out, though, that we've been getting some mixed messages from the administration on this situation generally. Just yesterday and over the past several days, President Obama has insisted, as you said, that there will be no ground troops in Iraq. However, on Friday, Secretary of State John Kerry said in a news conference that the president has taken no options off the table.

The other thing I would point out is just yesterday, President Obama said we're -- the U.S. is not moving the consulate in Irbil or the embassy in Baghdad. Then today, the State Department issued an updated travel warning, saying that they are moving staff out of those two locations.

Now the administration is generally outlining what they are doing on a day-to-day basis in terms of these food drops, any airstrikes, but they are not outlining a broader strategy, as if they don't have one yet. And that's where a lot of the criticism is piling up, particularly from Republicans like Senator John McCain, who is on CNN just this morning and he said this narrow scope is ineffective in dealing with ISIS.

Now the last point that I would raise, Jim, is that if the Obama administration and the U.S. military is successful in rescuing the remaining stranded people from Mount Sinjar but they don't obliterate the ISIS militants what's to say this could not happen again, Jim? And that's another thing we haven't heard from the administration yet.

SCIUTTO: No question. I mean, you have two problems really now because you have the ongoing threat from ISIS which the administration is responding to but they've always returned to politics, a political settlement as key to the long-term civility in -- in Iraq and now tonight you have some worrisome developments there.

Just to -- I'm going to tell my viewers that we just got this urgent crossing now, that special forces loyal to the Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, have been deployed in strategic areas of Baghdad, this coming from Iraqi police.

Again these developments on the ground in Iraq happening very quickly. Today was supposed to be the deadline for choosing a new Iraqi prime minister. That deadline had been extended. But now Nouri al-Maliki, who many have wanted to see go in Iraq, making signs here that he is not going to go quietly.

We're going to keep watching this very closely, we're going to bring you developments as they come. Please stay with us. We're going to have some more news and some more analysis right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back, I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And we are covering breaking news out of Iraq, developments happening by the minute there. I'll just read you the latest.

We're told that special forces loyal to the Iraqi prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, have been deployed in, quote, "strategic areas of Baghdad." These are Iraqi police who are telling us this. Sunday was meant to be a deadline for choosing a new prime minister for Iraq. That deadline was extended, but Nouri al-Maliki accusing the president of Iraq of violating the constitution by extending that deadline.

And in some of these moves, by deploying forces loyal to Maliki, loyal to himself, certainly showing, at a minimum, that he is not going to go quietly. At worst, the possibility of military action of some sort playing into the political development there, which the Obama administration has placed an enormous amount of capital in. They say that a more inclusive government is key to Iraq's stability going forward, far more than U.S. military action there.

I continue to be joined by Major General James Williams. He was with the U.S. Marines, great deal of experience in Iraq.

I wonder if could I begin, Major General Williams, by asking you, these moves we're seeing now, special forces loyal to the Iraqi prime minister deployed, bridges linking east and west Baghdad blocked, security forces surrounding the Green Zone, which is to remind our viewers is that more secure area in the center of Baghdad where government facilities are located.

What does this -- what is the military significance of moves like this that you're seeing right now?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, if these are loyal forces to Maliki, then this is very much sort of a protective move, at least that's the way I would judge it, and that he wants to protect his position and if these forces are loyal and it sounds like some of them may have come from the Ministry of the Interior and since this is coming from a police report, those are very loyal forces in the Shia population to the prime minister. So I would see that as a protective move on his part.

SCIUTTO: Is -- protective certainly. If you're exercising that kind of control in the capital of a country, a country that is really at war right now with U.S. involvement in the north and potentially around Baghdad, because the president has identified Baghdad as a red line to some degree, because you have so many Americans inside the Green Zone, in fact, at the U.S. embassy there, the U.S. is involved whether they like it or not. But as this is happening, does this look to you in the worst case like the beginnings of a military coup?

WILLIAMS: I think this may be the beginning of more of a civil war and a split within Iraq, which is -- when I was in Iraq, and most of our military forces talked about this quite a bit, we felt that where we were going politically at the time, training the Iraqi forces and all of those things, were probably just frosting on the cake. It really wasn't a real solid move, even though that was something that we reported and supported and did all those things.

But at the end of the day, these forces that are there, the Iraqi forces, are very weak. You know, they don't have great leadership, they don't have the professional level leadership that you would have from U.S. forces and, you know, when units start to break up and run away, those are all signs that these are tribal factions now maybe dictating to some of those forces, come back to the tribe and support the tribe. So whether they are Sunni or Shia forces, those Iraqi forces will continue to break up, in my opinion.

SCIUTTO: Well, Major General James Williams, thanks very much for joining us.

You can say that there are two battles under way right now in Iraq. One against ISIS, as it moves forward and the other, a political battle taking place right now and coming out in the form of military moves, where you have the current prime minister of Iraq, Nouri al- Maliki, deploying forces in and around Baghdad, as he appears to be refusing to go down easily as a new government is formed there.

We're going to keep you abreast of all the latest developments. Right after this break, we're also going to have Michael Holmes joining us. He has years of experience in Iraq and we hope he can put this into context for us. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And we at CNN continue to follow some ominous developments on the ground in Baghdad. These are political developments. We have the deployment, we are told, by Iraqi Police of special forces loyal to the current prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki. Special forces loyal to him deployed around strategic sites in and around Baghdad.

We have reports that bridges connecting the city -- city's east and western sides closed off. Also reports of an increased military security force presence around the Green Zone. This is the secure zone in the center of Baghdad, where government facilities are located and crucially, I might remind our viewers, also where the U.S. embassy in Baghdad is located, with hundreds of American diplomats as well as military advisers.

These are the developments we have as we have them right now. I'm joined now by CNN's Michael Holmes. He's joining us on the phone. He has a great deal of experience in Iraq. We also have Steven Cook, senior fellow for Middle Eastern Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. And we're happy to have retired Marine Major General James Williams, his own experience in Iraq as well.

Michael, I wonder if I could begin with you. This was meant to be a day of possible political transition, finally an agreement on a new prime minister for Iraq. That deadline passed, it's been extended now, you have military moves on the ground.

What do you think the significance of these moves are?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, I have to say that I -- you know, could say we are surprised, but in many ways we're not. Nouri al-Maliki, it's not in his DNA to go down without a fight. And this is a man who really is feeling besieged at the moment. He is cornered on all sides, if you like. He's got ISIS on his doorstep, in a military sense. He even had the grand ayatollah, Ali al-Sistani, the other day saying politicians should not cling to their posts.

But this is a guy who seizes on the power, he holds it, he's demonstrated his sectarian style of governance over the last few months and really, you could see it coming in some ways that he wasn't going to go down without a fight. He's a guy that has ruled with an iron fist. He has completely shut out Sunnis from the process which in many ways has led to what we have seen in northern Iraq and in some ways, it's not surprising, it's very disturbing, however, as you say and if he has put his people out on the streets like this, it's a very worrying situation.

Let's remember that the militias that exist, Shia militias, who have offered their support to him, they are not necessarily beholden to him. They have already demonstrated their independence of the Iraqi government in the past. Will they stick with him? Are they going to back this? Is -- you know, Sammy Brigades, are they going to stand for this? It's a very worrying situation in the capital.

SCIUTTO: No question. Steven Cook, Council on Foreign Relations, I wonder if could I bring you in. I just saw a tweet from Brett McGurk, he is the senior State Department official with responsibility for Iraq policy. He says, "We fully support the president of Iraq, Fuad Masum, as guarantor of the constitution and a prime minister nominee who can build a more national consensus."

So it appears you have the U.S. here lining up against Maliki and we've heard that to some degree in recent weeks, that they would like a more inclusive prime minister there.

What does the U.S. do now and do you think the U.S. has placed too much faith and hope in a political settlement as key to stability in Iraq in light of these continuing divisions that we are seeing playing out right now?

STEVEN COOK, SENIOR FELLOW FOR MIDEAST STUDIES, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, I think that the deputy assistant secretary of state's statement is clear that the United States is breaking from Maliki, that there really is no political support coming from Washington for Maliki, but the second part of your question is really the important one. Might this all be beside the point? And what we are seeing in Iraq with Maliki is the culmination of a decomposition of the political process that's been going on for quite some time.

The idea that Maliki could be inclusive or that he could oversee an inclusive political process at this point or that any Iraqi politician who would come to office as prime minister and survey the political arena and the number of problems that they have and do anything other than try to accumulate problems to establish control of this country I think is unrealistic at this point.

SCIUTTO: General Williams, picture this scenario. You're in Iraq, say, you're fighting a war right now against ISIS, a very formidable enemy. And at the same time, you have this political disagreement going on and troops now being deployed in Baghdad, in effect, against -- Iraqis against Iraqis, right, not even just against the threat from ISIS.

How much of a challenge is this as a commander if you're trying to fight and, of course, the U.S. is now involved in this fight against ISIS -- to fight that battle while there's this political battle going on?

WILLIAMS: Well, if you talk about it from a pure military sense, the competency of our military to do military things is without question. The question becomes whether the political aspect of rebuilding the government hand in hand with the military apparatus will be in sync. So, you know, in a war, we fight multiple lines of action and politics and developing the political landscape is just one of them, along with what we would do from a military perspective.

So what I don't see right now is clear political delineation of where we go next. And so -- and because this is happening so rapidly, all of this is kind of like what we would call an on-call mission. Things are going to happen. We're going to keep planning, thinking about it and deciding what's got to be done. So I'm sure the National Security Council is working feverishly today to figure out what's the next course of action and then how our military fits into it, how the political fits into it, what do we need from our intelligence, and then ultimately what do we need from our economic development activities.

SCIUTTO: General Williams, Steven Cook, Michael Holmes on the telephone, thanks very much for joining us.

Just a reminder to our viewers, two battles in effect under way in Iraq, one against ISIS, particularly in the north, with U.S. airstrikes involved, now a political battle that we're watching unfold on the ground in Baghdad. The current prime minister deploying forces, special forces loyal to him, around key installations in Baghdad, refusing to go down in effect politically while the U.S. expressing support for the Iraqi constitution and the Iraqi president. This is a story we're going to continue to follow very closely in the -- in the coming hours.

Thanks for staying with us.

Meanwhile, another story we're following very closely overseas, investigators at the MH-17 crash site in Ukraine have called off the search for bodies, saying that fighting in the area has made the site too unstable and too dangerous.

How will they continue their search for victims and for answers when they can't even reach the crash site? We'll ask one investigator who's been there since the very beginning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

As the humanitarian crisis grows in eastern Ukraine, Secretary of State John Kerry is sending a strong warning to his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, do not invade under the guise of peacekeeping. Meanwhile, in the heated Donetsk district, the self- proclaimed leader of pro-Russian forces there said they would consider a humanitarian cease-fire to bring aid to civilians but they are not ready to surrender their territory and would, quote, "fight to the death."

But what about the investigation into the crash site of Malaysia Flight 17?

I want to bring in Michael Bociurkiw. He is the spokesman for the OSCE monitoring mission in Ukraine.

Michael, you have been to the site many times. You have just returned from months in the region. Have things improved at all since you first arrived? There have been promises of greater access to the site. There have been some attempted cease-fires, et cetera. But is it any better today than it was when that plane went down?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, OSCE SPOKESMAN, UKRAINE MONITORING MISSION: Hi, Jim. Good to be back with you. Well, what we're seeing now is actually the worst of all possible scenarios. We already said if that front line does pass through the crash site, then that will have to cause a temporary stop to any type of things like the retrieval of human remains, the search for passenger belongings as well as that very, very crucial criminal investigation.

At the moment, as we speak, there is no activity going on. All activity was suspended a few days ago after the Dutch, who lead the investigation, said that it was just too dangerous to proceed with that recovery of human remains.

And this -- Jim, this was after two separate incidents where live fire landed very close to the more than 100 experts, as well as our monitors that were brought in.

Now also, in the area surrounding the crash site, you have key cities of Shakhtarsk, which is basically a dead zone right now, and also Donetsk, lots of shelling there. We were at a hospital only on Thursday. Very bad damage to that and also to residential buildings.

In Donetsk, a city of about one million people, about a quarter of the population has fled already. So huge humanitarian disaster unfolding.

SCIUTTO: This is weeks into this tragedy. These things should have been done a long time ago if this was a proper investigation. The bodies removed, piecing and poring over the wreckage to build a picture of what actually happened here.

At this point in your view, is it too late to get answers that all sides are going to accept in an investigation?

BOCIURKIW: Well, Jim, we've always said that each passing day makes it more difficult, makes the site more vulnerable to human and manmade -- human and natural factors. There's a lot of debris still out there that hasn't been combed over at all by investigators, and sad to say, Jim, is there's considerable human remains still out there, that shelling that live fire that I talked about only a few days ago put a very abrupt and sad end to that humanitarian effort to recover human remains.

Also, relatives are waiting for return of the personal belongings. Only about 10 cubic meters has been retrieved. So that's another problem. And who knows what would happen now with the front line directly in that site, what will happen to those huge pieces of fuselage that remain out there and that need to be investigated and retrieved?

SCIUTTO: Well, it's just heartbreaking, even outrageous to imagine that these weeks later, still human remains there.

Michael Bociurkiw, thank you for you and your team's efforts to try to get hard answers but also respect for the families who lost so many loved ones there. We appreciate having you on again.

BOCIURKIW: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: It is the secret serum that's being credited for saving two American Ebola patients. So why isn't it being sent to help the hundreds affected in Africa?

We are asking two of the nation's leading health experts about that right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back, I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

Nearly 1,000 people have died from Ebola in West Africa. Two Americans who caught the virus while helping there are improving at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. They were given an experimental Ebola serum that people in Africa do not yet have access to. That is raising a lot of ethical questions.

Here is our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, the husband of one of the two American Ebola patients shared had his thoughts on his wife's battle.

DAVID WRITEBOL, HUSBAND OF EBOLA VICTIM: I'm grateful and happy that she's in a place that enables her to receive the best care possible and that will give her every opportunity to get better and to recover.

COHEN: To hear the CDC tell it, nothing works to treat Ebola.

DR. TOM FRIEDEN, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: We've reviewed the evidence of the treatments out there and don't find any treatment that's had proven effectiveness against Ebola disease.

COHEN: But what about the experimental drug given to Dr. Kent Brantly and Nancy Writebol that likely saved their lives? They got the drug when African patients didn't.

Many critics now asking, why did the two Americans receive the serum when hundreds have already died in West Africa and many more are at risk? Currently, there's very little of the drug to give.

DR. ARTHUR CAPLAN, NYU MEDICAL CENTER: The world's supply of that drug, I imagine, would fit in a tea cup.

COHEN: But that, of course, is fixable. They could, with time, make more. The ethical problems are much thornier.

CAPLAN: Look, we've had two people who got it, but you want to wait a couple of weeks to see that they don't get terrible side effects, their livers aren't destroyed, they don't die all of a sudden of some unexpected consequence. You also want to make sure you do a little more safety studies so you know what dose to give.

COHEN: Dr. Peter Piot, who helped discover the virus, and two other Ebola experts, say patients in Africa should get a chance to take the drug. Writing in "The Wall Street Journal," they said, "It is highly likely that if Ebola were now spreading in Western countries, public health authorities would give at-risk patients access to experimental drugs. The African countries where the current outbreaks of Ebola are occurring should have the same opportunity."

(END VIDEO TAPE)

SCIUTTO: That was CNN's Elizabeth Cohen.

Liberia's president says she wants the U.S. to conduct clinical trials right now in Liberia, but as we just heard, it may not be safe enough yet.

Let's talk about these questions. Dr. Anthony Fauci, he's director of the National Institutes of Health, and Dr. Jeffrey Koplan, he's vice president for global health at Emory University, which received these two Americans who caught the virus.

Dr. Fauci, if I could begin with you. We know there are rules about how you bring out and introduce drugs like this one. But it was tried with success on two Americans. Back here, you understand that there are many Africans suffering now who say why can't we try it as well? Are the circumstances dire enough as Ebola spreads and WHO says that it's moving faster than they can react to accelerate this process to get the serum to people there quicker?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: No doubt, Jim, that's the case. I think we should point out that the two Americans who got it, that's the first time it's been in a human. And there's this assumption that it has worked dramatically, and actually we do not know that because the individuals were under good care and we're getting better anyway. So I think we better withhold judgment that this was some sort of a miraculous turnaround on the basis of this serum.

But I agree with you completely, the company is trying to scale up now, even with some resources from the -- from the United States, from the -- from the Department of Health and Human Services, to make more of this so that we can actually get it to the Africans who need it. But right now, there's less than a handful of doses. We need to accelerate the production to do a clinical trial, as Dr. Caplan said, to determine, A, is it safe, and B, is it effective? But at the same time, to have the compassionate use to get it to people who might need it so it's really a balance between the two -- determine if it's safe, determine if it's effective, but be compassionate in getting it as soon as you possibly can to the Africans that need it.

SCIUTTO: That's a fantastic point you make, and I haven't heard it, Dr. Fauci, that maybe that the serum was part of the solution to the two Americans' problem, not necessarily did it all by itself, there was other care they received.

Dr. Koplan, I wonder if could I ask you. Let's say that this process is accelerated, in light of the severity of the threat in Africa, how long would it take under some reason -- with some reasonability here to get these drugs if they worked to people on the ground in Africa?

DR. JEFFREY KOPLAN, VICE PRESIDENT FOR GLOBAL HEALTH, EMORY UNIVERSITY: I'm no expert in the drug production, but it's likely to be weeks or months to get them going and it's got to be emphasized that these drugs are unproven. We don't know what the risks are which don't what he what the benefits are and the small amounts of them. To control this outbreak requires isolation and contact tracing and it won't happen with the drugs. It requires traditional public health methods.

SCIUTTO: That's a very good point as well.

And Dr. Fauci, I know that people in situations like this, they like quick and easy solutions. This one may not have a quick and easy solution. So what are the key steps that need to be taken in West Africa to do,

as Dr. Koplan says, to control this and to get treatment to people on the ground and keep these -- paths of infection from continuing?

FAUCI: Well, there are two things, Jim. There's fundamental good public health medical care and infection control. That's become very difficult because of the health care system in those countries that are very poor and without resources.

We have experience with outbreaks since 1976 with Ebola, certainly on a much smaller scale than we're seeing now, but they are controllable with the right isolation procedures, the right health care delivery and protecting the health care providers by personal protective equipment.

Because of the size of the outbreak now, what we really need and we can deliver that now is an influx of resources to improve the health care delivery. As Jeff said, it's certainly true that by the time you get enough drugs, even the ones that are not proven to people, that's going to take months and months.

Right now we can do medical care and that's what the global community needs to step to the plate and help these countries in order to be able to get the kind of care that will not only help the people who are infected, but will actually prevent the spread.

SCIUTTO: Simple steps make a difference.

Dr. Koplan, I wonder if I could ask you what did you and your team learn that might be valuable to share with Africa and others who are responding to this outbreak? What did you learn from the treatment of the two Americans that might help folks on the ground in West Africa?

KOPLAN: Well, I'd have to emphasize that my knowledge of the care of these two patients is the same as yours, from press and reports elsewhere. All the care of these patients has been confidential at the request of the patients.

I think what we've learned, amongst other things is that there is little danger to the public and little danger to health care personnel when, as Tony said, proper personal protective equipment is used, when what we know about the disease and its transmission is employed, we can minimize risk for all those taking care of the patient and anyone else around in the community.

That now has to be taken to scale in West Africa, with much less resources, with a lack of this equipment, clothing, masks, et cetera, and that has to be provided for them there and some technical support as to how to use it.

SCIUTTO: Dr. Fauci, one thing you hear of on the ground in West Africa is just about information, that people who need to get care don't get care because they feel that the hospitals are actually where people go to die. They are concerned about getting worse there.

How do you get over those sorts of problems? FAUCI: That's going to be very difficult, Jim. That's the social and

societal issue of years and years of mistrust of authority. Those are countries that have been mired in conflict and they have a great distrust of authority and health care providers is a form of authority to them. So what they do, and this is so counterproductive, rather than bringing the patients to the hospital they try to take care of them in their home.

And that spreads it among the family members and we have the same issue with the proper disposal of bodies, which are not supposed to, without protection, touch. And because of the customs of the country, something that's deep seated and deep rooted in them, they do that and it just essentially compounds the difficulty that we have and spread it. It's a very, very sad situation.

SCIUTTO: No question. Continuing challenges.

Thanks very much, Dr. Fauci, Dr. Koplan.

Another international story, ISIS militants and Kurdish forces are battling for control of key towns in northern Iraq. We're going to have the latest, right after this.

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