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End to Night Protests; Iraq Problems; Evacuation of Refugees

Aired August 13, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for joining me.

We have to begin this hour just outside of St. Louis, Missouri, where community policing has gone to a whole new and some critics are saying disturbing level, as these images right here show you. These pictures come after three straight nights of violence, after police shot and killed an unarmed student. It was supposed to be his first day of college Monday.

Last night, another officer shot someone else, not in Ferguson, but just outside this town of 21,000 people. Still, it's to the point, the city of Ferguson, Missouri, has called for demonstrations only during daylight hours. According to a press release from the city, they're saying, quote, "unfortunately" -- let me read it for you - "those who wish to co-opt peaceful protests and turn them into violent demonstrations have been able to do so over the past several days during the evening hours." But Ferguson Police still has yet to name that police officer who shot and killed 18-year-old Michael Brown Saturday. Keep in mind, Brown was unarmed and an eyewitness told CNN Brown never went after the officer's gun.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DORIAN JOHNSON, EYEWITNESS & SHOOTING VICTIM'S FRIEND: At no point in time did they struggle over the weapon, because the weapon was already drawn on us. So we were more trying to get away out of the angle or aim of the weapon, besides going towards the weapon, because it was drawn on us already.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: However, today, the chief of police told our affiliate there KMOB-TV that the officer has a facial injury from this alleged altercation. It was an altercation that has ignited a national outcry, as well as frustration as expressed in this opinion piece in "Deadspin." The headline, the title of this piece, "America is not for black people." The author of that piece, "Deadspin" columnist Greg Howard, joins me now. Also with me, HLN law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks.

Gentlemen, welcome. MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Thank you, Brooke. Good to

be with you.

GREG HOWARD, COLUMNIST, "DEADSPIN": Thank you.

BALDWIN: Greg, let me begin with you. We've got a lot to talk about, about your piece. First, just beginning with "America is not for black people." It is definitely an intention-grabbing headline. What did you mean by it?

HOWARD: I meant that black people in this country aren't offered the same protections as white people. But, you know, and I would extend that to all minorities in terms of safety from police and the assumption that, you know, unarmed black men won't be shot. You know, we aren't afforded that. We're not afforded the right to be angry. You know, we're not afforded the assumption that we are -- that we're people.

BALDWIN: You go through example by example by example. We're actually talking to a woman next hour who lost her son 20 years ago in an illegal chokehold here in New York. But let me ask you, because I really want to focus this conversation - and, Mike, this is when you're going to chime in, in just a minute - about the -- your point about the militarization of police in this country, especially in the wake of 9/11 with a whole new enemy on our hands. Let me just quote you. You wrote this, "the worst part of outfitting our police officers as soldiers has been psychological. Give a man access to drones, tanks and body armor and he'll reasonably think that his job isn't simply to maintain peace, but eradicate danger." Greg, what do you mean by that, "eradicate danger"?

HOWARD: I mean, you know, if you give a man a hammer, no nails are going to go look for nails, you know? And I think when you're -- when police officers are given all this equipment, when they're given tanks and assault rifles, you know, and drones and airplanes, you know, for one small town like Ferguson, I believe it -- the obvious solution is that there are people to use it on or there's a reason to have this. You know, and so I think there's a psychological aspect there where the neighborhood in which you're supposed to patrol and keep safe, you probably see, you know, danger everywhere. You're probably --

BALDWIN: You want to destroyed, to use your word.

HOWARD: Right.

BALDWIN: And that's why, Mike Brooks, I wanted your voice as well here because I know you were with D.C. Metropolitan Police for 26 years, you were with the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force for several years after that. When you hear all of this, and especially to his point about the psychological ramifications of the drones, the tanks, the rifles, et cetera, to his point, does that lead to unnecessary aggression on behalf of police?

BROOKS: I don't believe so. And I don't believe that the city of Ferguson has any drones. But if you go back to 1997, look at LAPD and the north Hollywood shootout, when law enforcement, 11 officers were injured during a shootout because they were over -- they were overmatched because they didn't have the weapons they need. Nowadays, things -- you have to have -- look, I believe in community policing. I was a SWAT member myself. We were called the emergency response team. But you need a tactical element. Now, every time we see -- let's say a mall shooting, an active shooter, the Navy yard shooting, you need to have teams like this, as well as community relations officers as part of the same department.

BALDWIN: But at what point do you draw the line then? Because when you do look at these pictures, and I'm not saying Ferguson, Missouri, had drones. Maybe they would like to have drones. I don't know if they have drones. But when you look at the pictures from these different members of law enforcement, you know, head to toe in riot gear. And, yes, we did see the looting that first night. But, you know, does that -- it's almost like chicken or egg. Does wearing riot gear then incite the riot or vice versa? Greg, what do you think?

HOWARD: I mean, I believe that police being in Ferguson really, really up -- you know, up the stakes and up the fear on the side of the citizens. You know, I saw -- what I saw was Ferguson police and St. Louis County Police were saying, you don't have the right to express your anger. And they were doing so in a peaceful manner. And they were answered with police in full riot gear. You know, police shooting them with rubber bullets, shooting tear gas at them. I --

BROOKS: Well, that's -

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Mike, jump in.

BROOKS: No, that's because -- well, the reason they were out there in riot gear, the -- when the shooting happened, you didn't see police in riot gear. You saw police in riot gear after all the civil disobedience, when you saw all the stores being looted, when you saw the quick trip where all this may have began. We saw that set on fire and looted. And then the next night, all -- rounds shot -- fired at law enforcement. Law enforcement supposed (ph) to come out there in soft hats (ph), no body armor, no vests, no gas masks and deal with crowds like this throwing rocks and bottles, shooting at them? I don't think so.

BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE) point.

BROOKS: Police aren't - police aren't paid - police aren't paid to get hurt. They're there to protect citizens. But also you have to also respond in like. If someone's throwing rocks and bottles, you put on your hat and you get your shield. If someone's shooting at you, you bring out the armored vehicles because you don't have to walk around and get shot at.

BALDWIN: But, Mike, the - yes. And I hear you and your facts are right, but there seems to be -- and you listen to the police chief, you listen to the people of Ferguson and even beyond. Listen, this is emblematic of what's happening across this country. There is a cycle of tension, there is a cycle of distrust between certain communities and police forces.

BROOKS: Sure.

BALDWIN: The real question is, how do you break that? How do you - how do you establish that trust, especially after, in this case, it is so shattered?

BROOKS: Well, you know, right now, the U.S. Department of Justice community relations team, they brought service - brought in teams because, right now, I understand why there might be some distrust of local and state law enforcement. But they're there to try to bridge the gap between the community and law enforcement to try to build that trust back. We saw them used in Sanford, Florida, to a great success after the Trayvon Martin incident.

So, you know, again, you do need a tactical element. A lot of people think it's demilitarization. But when you need them -- and you go to New York, Greg and Brooke, where you are now, you can walk down the street and you see New York City NYPD emergency services outside icons with automatic weapons, with body armor, with helmets. Are they not needed there? No, they're needed there.

BALDWIN: Final thought from you, Greg, then we've got to go.

HOWARD: I mean for you to say that there's some distrust among, you know, minorities and blacks for police is - I mean that's probably - that's pretty wild that you would say that because, I mean, there are generations and there have been generations of blacks. And one of the first things they're taught is that, a, don't trust the police and, b, don't do anything or don't be anywhere where a police would have some reason to shoot you. You know the --

BROOKS: But why is that? But why is that? Why did that happen?

HOWARD: Well -- well, it happens because black men's lives aren't valued.

BROOKS: What about the black - what about the black - (INAUDIBLE) -

BALDWIN: Hang on - hang on, Mike. Let him answer. Let him answer. Go ahead, Greg.

BROOKS: No, I just want to know but when -

HOWARD: I mean, yes, the question -- no one's saying - no one's saying, watch out for police if you have a gun, right? People are saying - people are saying, watch out for police if you're walking down the street. Don't walk down this street at this hour because you might get stopped and it may turn fatal.

BROOKS: But what about -

HOWARD: You know if -- have you ever - I mean have you ever felt -- well, you've been a cop. But like, you know, I think - I think that is a right that Americans should have, is to be able to walk down the street or, you know, to be able to speak to a police officer without being choked out or shot or executed with their hands up.

BALDWIN: And I think right to your point this is also -

BROOKS: But there are more - there are more black men -

BALDWIN: Hang on, Mike. This is also just bringing up an entire other conversation, which we'll be having at the end of the show. And we talked about this a lot after Trayvon Martin's death, about just being an African-American parent in this country and having young - having young kids and having to have that conversation with them. You know, listen, I never had to have that conversation with my parents, but a lot of young people did. And I respect that. And we're going to talk about that a little later.

But for now, Greg Howard, just again, your piece is entitled "America is not for black people" on "Deadspin." Thank you so much for joining me.

HOWARD: (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: And Mike Brooks, truly, you as well. Thank you.

BROOKS: Thank you, Brooke.

HOWARD: Thanks, Mike.

BROOKS: Thanks, Greg.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, we have to talk about the breaking news out of Iraq. The U.S. now considering rescuing thousands of religious minorities trapped by blood-thirsty militants. But that mission would put the U.S. at risk of direct confrontation with ISIS. Coming up live, we'll talk to someone who has just left this chaotic mountaintop.

Plus, as Robin Williams' suicide sparks a national discussion on depression, did his peers miss any warning signs? You're about to hear Williams himself talk about addiction, suicide, mental health. Robin Williams' own words coming up here on CNN.

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BALDWIN: As we come to you this hour, more American forces arrive in Iraq as the U.S. considers a change in mission that risks putting U.S. service men and women in direct confrontation with these jihadi fighters. Why? To help these Yazidis and other persecuted religious minorities who are facing certain death.

Right now, a U.S. plan it taking shape to rescue them. As many as 20,000 people from this mountain, they were driven to by ISIS militants. Further south in Baghdad, a series of deadly bombings has ripped through the city, killing at least 27 people there. All of this as the Iraqi prime minister, Nuri al Maliki, is digging in, lashing out against what he is calling a quote/ unquote "conspiracy" to replace him with a successor backed by the U.S.

Joining me now from Orlando, Florida, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, U.S. Army retired. General Hertling commanded the U.S. force in northern Iraq during the combat years 2007 to 2009. He has been to Sinjar Mountain.

General, welcome.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Hello, Brooke. How are you this afternoon?

BALDWIN: I am doing OK. Let's begin with you and let's actually just begin, because what helps me is looking at maps. So let's just show our viewers this map of Mt. Sinjar. And so this is based on the best information we have. And, you know, not to oversimplify here, but we, at CNN, we were led to believe that ISIS fighters are poised just southwest of the mountain there, the yellow and orange stripes. ISIS, obviously we know these are the terrorists. Bad, bad guys. If they are clustered together, general, why not -- if we're talking about this U.S. airstrike campaign, why not just take out those militants right there at the base of the mountain?

HERTLING: It's hard to do, Brooke. I mean when you talk about taking out soldiers on the ground, it's a very difficult challenge. And I think we have been looking for targets. I would suggest that there are over 30 sorties or 30 aircraft up a day in northern Iraq. They are, in fact, looking for targets. But it's very difficult to do unless you have observation on those targets very close. It's challenging. We don't have that right now. I think we're trying to get --

BALDWIN: How do you have that observation: Do you have to be on the ground?

HERTLING: You don't have to be. You can use drones and we have been doing some of that. You can have other pilots observing it, but it doesn't give you 100 percent accuracy when you're at 10,000 feet or above. So it's just a challenge.

It isn't as easy, as I've said before, as a video game where you just kind of put the cross hair and start knocking down targets.

BALDWIN: OK.

HERTLING: This is a challenging force. They're intermingled with civilians on the ground. We don't know what a target is from, again, from 10,000 feet. You do the best you can if you have some type of military equipment and you know they're using it against the population.

BALDWIN: OK. So then by our best estimate, there are thousands of refugees on top of the mountain. You have -- you've been there, triple digit heat this time of year. You have no shade. Ivan Watson talking about seeing a lot of them under just trees, where they could find any bit of shade. They have absolutely no shelter. Obviously very desperate to get to safety.

Is there a way to do that, to get to safety in an orderly manner so there is not a repeat of some of the chaos we've seen up until now and some of what you're looking at, these people just scrambling to get inside of these helicopters, maybe even weighing them down. HERTLING: Yes, there are several ways you can do this, Brooke, but

they're all difficult. And I think in order to do it properly, you have to have key intelligence on the ground so you know exactly how many passengers you're there to pick up by whatever means you're using. You have to have the right logistics to get in and get them out. You have to have an overhead platform for air power or air cover, for close air support. You have to have the potential for fighters. You have to have the logistics and the command and control that will separate the groups of however many number of people -- and we're not even sure of that yet -- into the right packages to either pick them up on some type of transport or some type of aircraft.

And, you know, these people have been traumatized. So you really have to turn chaos into order as best you can to get those folks out of there. It is a very challenging mission. And, you know, our president's mission to the troops there has been prevent a humanitarian disaster. Remember, about six weeks ago, we sent soldiers or we sent militant forces into Baghdad and Irbil with two key missions of assess the situation, protect American citizens and prevent humanitarian disasters. They have done that assessment now, but all of this with the Yazidis on top of Mt. Sinjar has come up in the last few days. So it takes a while to plan these kind of operations, especially when you don't have ready access to the area. And we don't have that right now.

BALDWIN: We don't have that right now. General Mark Hertling, thank you so much.

Coming up next, we'll focus on this region, we'll speak live with a reporter who just actually left that mountain and he has a pretty chilling account about how desperate parents are to feed their children. We'll talk to him from Iraq.

Also ahead, the academy in charge of the Oscars posting this message about Robin Williams after the actor's suicide. They tweeted "genie, you're free." Was it appropriate? Was it encouraging someone on the edge? We'll discuss.

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BALDWIN: More American forces are heading to Iraq, as the U.S. considers a change in mission, as we told you a moment ago, to help these Yazidis and other persecuted religious minorities who are facing certain death on top of this mountain in northern Iraq. Joining me now, Jonathan Rugman. He's a foreign correspondent at ITN and he has been on Sinjar Mountain for multiple days.

Jonathan, we have been looking at these harrowing pictures, these desperate men, women, children, families, you know, trying to get off this mountain, hop on helicopters when they come down for those drops. But first let me just ask you, where are you right now, how far are you from ISIS forces?

JONATHAN RUGMAN, FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT, ITN: I suppose I'm about 10, 20 miles away from the Islamic State front line inside northern Iraq, inside Kurdish controlled northern Iraq. I have to say, a place which is jubilant tonight because it does seem as if the world is coming to its rescue. You have those 130 American military advisers deployed, talk in the last few minutes of American boots on the ground to help with the humanitarian relief effort. The French saying that they are prepared to arm the Kurds. The British saying they will join in with the relief effort, as well. So it seems as if things are moving here. If not to push Islamic State back, then certainly to come to the rescue of these Yazidi refugees who have been suffering in such large numbers here.

BALDWIN: So maybe some jubilance where you are, but let's talk about the situation and how dire the situation was. You were in that -- on the mountain. You know, you talked to different families in the region. There was a mother, Jonathan. Tell me about how desperate she was to feed her child.

RUGMAN: Well, I met this mother yesterday. And, in fact, I met her again today. And she was walking. And she'd been walking for 15 miles with her two-month-old son, Eamon (ph). And she was in such danger, and they were in such danger, that she had walked off Mt. Sinjar into Syria, which as you know is not one of the safest of places, and then done a big loop round back into Iraq. And she told me that because they'd had no food on that mountain and because her mother's milk had run out, she suckled the baby from a mountain goat in order to keep it alive. In fact, a very sensible thing to do because a goat's milk is very nutritious.

But she also told me that the reason she had fled is that her fellow Yazidis have been buried alive, as she put it. She had heard of executions, women being taken away, men killed and she said that if she hadn't moved, if she hadn't taken her baby with her, she would have either been forced to convert to Islam or she would have been killed.

BALDWIN: So goats milk in this kind of situation helping this child, giving this child the nutrients. As she has been one of so many of these refugees who have, as you pointed out, gone into Syria and then back into Iraq to escape ISIS.

Let me ask you about this possible U.S. rescue mission, even if it doesn't take on a ground component. We don't know. It's clearly evolving. But you have seen firsthand how dangerous it can be, you know, in the skies. What do you see as the best solution there?

RUGMAN: Well, dangerous indeed because I have to tell you that the helicopter pilot who crashed yesterday with a "New York Times" reporter on board, and she is OK -- but it was the same helicopter pilot who carried me the day before. And that pilot is now dead.

These helicopters that the Iraqis have been using are rusting old Russian MI-17s. Barely have four of them. Sometimes they are deployed on bombing missions against the jihadists, which is why they desperately need the latest technology, they need much better helicopters than what they've got.

And I have to tell you, when I flew up over Mt. Sinjar on a rescue mission, when we came back, laden with 25 refugees, we heard anti- aircraft fire, the jihadists below us were trying to knock the helicopter out of the sky. And that is the risk that any pilot is going to have to take if he embarks on a mission like this.

BALDWIN: Trying to knock it out of the sky with weaponry from the ground?

RUGMAN: I think transit (ph) from the sky, it's a dangerous mission. The problem is that if you go up on the ground itself, you're far more likely to encounter the jihadists on the ground. It is probably a better risk to take to fly in with a large helicopter, to have perhaps special forces on the top of the mountain gathering the refugees together into transit camps so that there are large numbers ready to go quickly. I would think that that is a safer thing to do than it would be to create some sort of land corridor stretching for miles.

BALDWIN: OK. Right, which some had proposed. Jonathan Rugman, foreign correspondent with ITN, thank you so much for sharing the stories and risking yourself to get the story out there. We appreciate it very much, from Iraq right now.

Coming up next, as fans continue, of course, to mourn the life of Robin Williams, we'll speak live with a celebrity publicist who not only deals with stars in their own depression, but she herself is very candid about her own depression. She says everyone wears a mask. Do not miss this important conversation.

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