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Interview with Amb. Joe Wilson; Ferguson, Missouri, Described as War Zone; Robin Williams Had Parkinson's Disease; Problems in Ferguson, Missouri, Need Solving by All Americans.

Aired August 14, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: So with me now from Santa Fe, New Mexico, Joseph Wilson, the former United States ambassador to Baghdad. He was there before Gulf War 2.

Mr. Ambassador, welcome.

JOSEPH WILSON: I was actually before Gulf War 1. I was there during Gulf War 1, 1990-91

BALDWIN: Gulf War 1. Our apologies.

WILSON: Yes.

BALDWIN: Let me throw a map on the screen that serves to illustrate the larger crisis here. And so it's all kinds of colors here. But the thick red streaks are the parts of northern Iraq where ISIS is active. Green is where ISIS essentially rules. And we're hearing today of a possible move by ISIS on the town of Kirkuk. What would it mean?

WILSON: Well, Kirkuk is the -- the newly proclaimed Kurdish capital. It's the oil capital of Iraq. They -- they would be able to disrupt the oil supplies. Certainly demoralize the Kurds, who just recently took Kirkuk. And while they would probably find some difficulty in finding markets for the oil, certainly disrupt domestic production.

BALDWIN: And then you have these, as we mentioned, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of refugees, this desperate exodus. We have been seeing this video of these families fleeing northern Iraq, fleeing ISIS. And we're finally seeing what's really happening here is these people been driven from their homes. Let me play my conversation with Fareed Zakaria earlier this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA, GPS: It is the end of the multicultural Middle East. The Middle East used to be actually a place where Christians, Muslims, Jews, for many centuries, were much a part of Arab countries. Baghdad was a third Jewish in the early 1940s. That's over. What you're watching in Iraq is -- first of all, remember, something like 600,000 Christians have already fled Iraq because of the Shiite sectarian government in place in Baghdad. Now what you're witnessing is a kind of dramatic ramping up and a horrific escalation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: What he said about the end of the multicultural Middle East, still sitting with me here at the end of the week. A, do you agree? B, do you think that these various ethnic groups eventually will find a place to settle down, and where would that be?

WILSON: Well, I think Fareed is probably right on the end of the multicultural Arab world. It looks like a lot of ethnic cleansing and moving of populations east and west and to different areas.

As it to where these refugees end up, a lot of them will end up in Jordan, a lot in enclaves in Iraq or southern Turkey, an area where the U.S. military and U.S. government could be very helpful of in providing humanitarian support and relief for the refugee exodus, which I think most people following this have been expecting. So it's not a surprise. And hopefully, everybody is geared up to handle the flow of refugees into camps.

BALDWIN: So that's the refugees. What about the fight in Iraq? What about ISIS? You hear from the Obama administration, they say --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: -- you know, Iraqis, the Kurds, they are the ones to take on ISIS. Can they do that?

WILSON: Yeah. I think is, as others have said, particularly in the administration, represents a very real -- not just the threat to Iraq and Syria. But the carving out of a 13th century caliphate in the beginning of the 21st century is a threat to the region and ultimately given the amount of foreign fighters that are coming into join is, it becomes an international problem. I can't imagine --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: How do you mean international?

WILSON: -- Chechen and Georgian. Well, the foreign fighters. We worry about foreign fighters coming back to Western Europe and the United States. I think you can be darn sure the Russians and other countries are worried about Chechen fighters. I don't think you defeat ISIL, which is about 15,000 fighters, three brigades. They're a tough outfit. And I don't think you beat them without boots on the ground. So the question then becomes, whose boots on the ground? And that's what I meant when I said this should not be an American project. It should be --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: You mean a coalition --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: -- of their neighbors?

WILSON: Yeah. When we conducted the gulf war, for example, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, we put together a coalition of most of the rest of the world. I would be looking for support within the region, the gulf states, the Saudis, other Sunni-dominated regimes, to a minimum, be coming out and decrying what al Baghdadi is doing in the name of the Sunni.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Haven't the Saudis been providing money to ISIS?

WILSON: They have. Sure. And the border between Turkey and Syria has been very porous for a long time. So it's time for all of the players in the region to understand that this is -- this poses a much greater threat than the benefits that they were hoping to achieve by supporting them in the beginning. Those benefits being to overthrow President Assad in Syria.

BALDWIN: For all the people who don't know the region, we wanted to talk to you, Joe Wilson.

We thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate it.

WILSON: Thank you very much.

BALDWIN: You got it.

Coming up next, we will take you back to Ferguson, Missouri, and talk to someone who is on the streets witnessing these clashes firsthand. He has described it as a war zone.

And just into CNN, a personal statement from the wife of Robin Williams. She reveals something huge about her late husband. She says Williams was suffering from early stages of Parkinson's disease. We'll have a live report for you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

No doubt the pictures we see out of Ferguson, Missouri, are striking. Police on the streets dressed in riot gear, wearing bullet-proof vests, helmets, assault rifles at the ready. The images we're seeing, frankly, look like they are straight out of a war zone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNFIRE)

(SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There are guns there and they're firing into the crowd.

(GUNFIRE)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Ouch! (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

They're firing rubber bullets.

(EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop throwing stuff at him.

(SHOUTING)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: These are pictures from just last night on the streets of Ferguson. Police fired flash grenades to disburse a crowd. Images like these are making a lot of people wonder if police are the ones escalating the situation, including Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL, (D), MISSOURI: I have been working to try to demilitarize the police response over the last 24 hours. And I want to make sure the people I work for understand that I want them to have respect and safety as they exercise their constitutional rights to protest.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It's horrible, what's going on, isn't it?

MCCASKILL: It's heartbreaking. I love this community. And I know the people of this community. And the way they're being portrayed is terribly unfair to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me from Ferguson is Jamellele Bouie, reporter for "Slate."

Welcome.

JAMELLELE BOUIE, REPORTER, SLATE MAGAZINE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Can you just describe for me, on both sides, both from police and these protesters, what did you see?

BOUIE: So I was there at the beginning of the protest or the demonstration, sort of the hour before I think tear gas and rubber bullets began, and the demonstration began very peaceful. It was like there were marchers coming down the street where Michael Brown was shot. It was clergy leaders, parents, children, teenagers, a very big and diverse group. They got to the intersection where Brown was killed, and the police were there, and I should say, that initially, it was a pretty routine police response. It was uniformed officers with batons and typical riot shields, nothing out of the ordinary. But after the demonstrators would not leave, about like an hour into the event, the police then brought in SWAT gear, even though nothing had changed in the behavior of the demonstrators. The only thing that had changed is they were just -- they just were unwilling to budge.

BALDWIN: Molotov cocktails? Did you see anything like that? Any fires started from the protesters, or none whatsoever?

BOUIE: So I -- I didn't see any Molotov cocktails. I've seen a photo that shows a handful of young men making a Molotov cocktail. That would have happened later in the evening. And I should say that those young men were aberrations, honestly. Everyone else there was peaceful. Everyone else there was -- maybe not respectful, but certainly well within their rights as American citizens. And the choice to launch tear gas and rubber bullets, to the perception of people there, came suddenly. The police said they heard a bottle break. And I guess the Molotov cocktail was that bottle. But for everyone else there, it seemed to be a sudden decision to launch tear gas and then to launch rubber bullets and then to use flash bangs and stun grenades.

BALDWIN: Which --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Which brings up your point in your piece, Jamelle. Let me quote you from your "Slate" piece talking about the militarization of police. You write, "Ferguson police have used armored vehicles to show force and control crowds. This would be one thing, if Ferguson were a war zone or protesters were violent, although it's hard to imagine a situation in which American police would need a mine- resistant vehicle."

You know, there is the argument, of course, that police have the right to defend themselves. Having a conversation yesterday with someone in law enforcement almost three decades, and especially in the wake of 9/11 and this country has a new enemy, that's one thing. But when you see these images playing out on the streets, your take is what?

BOUIE: Right. So, you know, there's no doubt that the police have the right to defend themselves. I don't think anyone is questioning that. But you know, the police -- the police aren't there to contain citizens. The police are there to protect them. And the idea that the police need heavy weapons, armored vehicles to, quote, "defend themselves" from ordinary citizens who are demonstrating is really disturbing. It's a disturbing thought, and suggests a very disturbing relationship of citizen to civil society and to civil government. The police, yes, should be able to defend themselves. And in the case of Ferguson, very few instances, they really haven't had a reason to defend themselves. But the right to defend yourself as a police officer does not also come with the right to brandish assault weapons and sniper rifles in crowds of children and teenagers.

BALDWIN: We heard from the governor of Missouri, spoke a while ago, Jay Nixon, saying he will be announcing in an hour and fifteen minutes from now operational changes or operational shifts. Might that pertain to policing there on the streets of Ferguson? We have to watch and wait and see.

But for now, Jamelle Bouie, thank you for telling the story in Ferguson. Let's pivot from Ferguson to the news. We have been covering the

tragic news in the wake of Robin Williams' death this week. New information just into us at CNN from his wife. She has released this entire statement about his death, and toward the end, when you read the whole thing, she reveals, he was suffering from early stages of Parkinson's disease. We'll tell you what she wrote in its entirety, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

BALDWIN: We had been reporting this week that 63-year-old Robin Williams ended his life earlier this week, and now we're getting a little bit more information from his widow, who has just released this full statement, and she wants it to be read in full. So I'm going to do exactly that. This is from Susan Schneider. She writes this: "Robin's sobriety was intact and he was brave as he struggled with his own battles of depression, anxiety, as well as early stages of Parkinson's disease, which he was not yet ready to share publicly. It is our hope in the wake of Robin's tragic passing that others will find the strength to seek the care and support they need to treat whatever battles they're facing so they may feel less afraid."

Dan Simon is live for us in Los Angeles.

And, Dan, I mean, ooh, talk about tragic all the way around. It just brings up more questions.

DAN SIMON, CNN ANCHOR: That's right, Brooke. You know, since his tragic passing, the question everybody has is why? How could this man, full of so much life, you know, commit suicide? And perhaps this gets us a little closer in answering that question. You know, maybe it gives us some insight into his psychological well-being. We know he was battling severe depression. But I think the question, Brooke, is did this diagnosis of early Parkinson's cause the depression, or did it just add to an already existing problem? So I think, you know, people will be analyzing this very closely. This has been all kinds of speculation as to what may have been going on in his life. But I think just adds another, you know, layer to an already complex question that everybody has any time anyone takes their own life -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Sounds like questions for doctors and those who were treating them. There is no way we can begin to understand, at least for now, why he would have done this.

Dan Simon, thank you so much.

Coming up, we're going to take you back to the streets of just outside of St. Louis and Ferguson, Missouri. And my next guest wrote an article titled "What White People Can Do about the Killing of Black Men in America." He'll join me live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: My next guest says the problems in Ferguson, Missouri, require response from all Americans, not just African-Americans. Paul Raushenbush, "Huffington Post" editor, writes, "There is an epidemic in this country and the victims are black men. Americans are rightfully outraged but it will require all Americans to be mobilized before the racism that undergirds these killings ends and the deaths along with it. White Americans have to stop channel-surfing the outrageously bad news around the world and focus on the death to our fellow Americans."

And he joins me now.

Nice to see you, sir.

PAUL BRANDEIS RAUSHENBUSH, EXECUTIVE REGION EDITOR, HUFFINGTON POST: Great to be with you.

BALDWIN: If anything, the title of your piece, "What White People Can Do about the Killing of Black Men in America," you get to the point about white people need to listen and show up. How do you mean?

RAUSHENBUSH: It's not just a black problem. It's not something that happens over there to those people. This is all of our problem. This is the suffering of our brothers and sisters, in Ferguson, in Staten Island, in L.A. They're feeling vulnerable, like less than human in America. And that's everybody's problem. We need to show up, show solidarity and be part of creating solutions, long-term solutions.

BALDWIN: Not just sitting on a computer with hash tags and tweeting.

RAUSHENBUSH: Well, I think that, you know, there is an awareness that comes from social media. We see images. All of us became very aware of what happened in Ferguson. We got images very quickly. But we can get a certain, you know, good feeling about retweeting something you agree with, and then consider that actually something that you've done. A friend of mine, who is really in the trenches with this, a black pastor, said it's a moment, not a movement, when we do that.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Yes. And it needs to be a movement.

RAUSHENBUSH: It needs to be a movement. This is Reverend Tony Lee, outside D.C. And he's really working on creating a movement of people helping to change systemic racism in this country.

BALDWIN: So how does the church help?

RAUSHENBUSH: The church helps in a variety of ways. A lot of times, the church is the central institution in many cities across the country, so they get involved. They get involved and have good relationships, outreach with the police. The police know them. They know the police. They hold the police accountable. They recognize. They use their influence, their moral influence, to say it's not OK to kill our black men. We need to have people accountable, so that the next time, there is a sense of repercussion. And not only that, the black church has to be preaching, and the white church has to be preaching, everybody has to be preaching. Black people matter. Black bodies matter. Black lives matter.

BALDWIN: To think they have to preach that, to remind people of that.

RAUSHENBUSH: That is the history of our country. It's the history of our country that we're overcoming of years, you know, of foundational racism. And we're making progress. There are good things that are happening. But this shows us how far we have to go.

BALDWIN: It does, every time this happens. But it shouldn't just be a reminder and a moment, to that pastor's point, in Prince Georgia County, Maryland. It needs to be a movement.

Paul Raushenbush, thank you so much for stopping by, trying to cover every angle of the story.

RAUSHENBUSH: My pleasure.

BALDWIN: Coming up next here on CNN, you have seen the pictures coming out of Missouri. Police armed with assault rifles, military vehicles. We are now hearing even Attorney General Eric Holder says he is concerned about use of military equipment there. We'll explain why. What he's saying, next.

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