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Dr. Drew
Teen Vanishes, Returns After 9 Months; Mom Lists Kids on Craigslist
Aired August 14, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the teen kidnapping suspect and the girl he allegedly abducted, face-to-face. Was she kept in
a shipping container in his backyard?
Plus, a mother attempts to sell her five children on Craigslist. You`ll hear from her.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone. My co-host is Samantha Schacher.
And coming up, a killer dream being used as a defense for attempted murder.
Samantha, this is crazy.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes, I know. And, Drew, this woman claims she was dreaming of filleting a fish.
PINSKY: Fillet a fish, fillet a neck in that case, though, it turned out. We`ll get into that.
SCHACHER: Sound fishy to me.
PINSKY: A little comedy here, Sam. Way to go.
First up, though, we have some new and disturbing developments in the case of Abby Hernandez, the 15-year-old who vanished from nine-months and
then mysteriously reappeared just last week on the very same road where she had disappeared. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Police have arrested this man, 34 years old Nathaniel Kibby. He`s charged with, quote, "felony kidnapping" for knowingly kidnapping
Abigail Hernandez.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We used the most sophisticated investigative techniques in this case, from cell phone tower analysis to social media
analysis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-four-year-old Nate Kibby answering to a felony kidnapping charge. The victim, 15-year-old Abigail Hernandez,
sitting just feet away with her mother in the courtroom. Kibby shackled and wearing a bright orange jail clothing peered around. The two never
made eye contact.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state is recommending became be set at $1 million.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kibby arrested at his Gorham, New Hampshire, trailer, with a metal storage container behind the trailer. Investigators
won`t say whether or not that`s where Abby was held against her will for the last nine months.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining us to discuss, Anahita Sedaghatfar from AnahitaLaw.com, Segun Oduolowu, host of "The Wired In with Segun" podcast,
and Kristin Brockman, host of the new TV show, "Hollywood Today Live."
Anahita, did you think it was all peculiar that she was in court today when she really didn`t need to be there, didn`t she?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ANAHITALAW.COM: I did. I found that so strange, Dr. Drew. I`m not sure that was the right thing for her to do. She`s
trying to heal right now. She just got back from supposedly being kidnapped for nine months.
And, no, she didn`t need to be there. She was just sitting there. She was almost so confident. She seemed a little defiant. She had this
aggressive look on her face.
I don`t know. I`m not sure that was the right thing for her to be doing.
PINSKY: Segun is shaking his head.
What`s say you about that front row appearance? And I wonder, Segun, do you sense what Anahita suggesting, is that there`s some relationship
between these two?
No, no, Samantha, I`m not saying romantic relationship, but some sort of familiarity.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Well, here`s my problem with Anahita, who I`m sure is a brilliant lawyer. I didn`t know she had become
the body language expert. The fact that she`s there, who are you to judge how she grieves, or comes across with her pain. If she wants to sit in the
front row and show --
(CROSSTALK)
SEDAGHATFAR: I wasn`t saying that she was grieving. I`m just saying if I was her mother and my daughter was kidnapped for nine months and she`s
15 years old, would I have her show up at an arraignment? She doesn`t need to be there.
ODUOLOWU: But, Anahita, your initial statement was -- she was sitting there confident.
What does her sitting there confident have anything to do with the crime that may have been committed against her? I have my doubts about
that crime, but I`m not going to judge a girl sitting at the front row and looking at her attacker in court.
PINSKY: Samantha, are you going to pile in on us?
SCHACHER: Yes. Listen, first of all, there are a lot of doubts about this crime. I think that`s B.S. I don`t think it`s fair at all. There`s
not enough evidence out there to warn all of us to even question the mother and her story, to question this poor girl.
From what I see, it looks like that she was kidnapped, possibly held in this shipping container, possibly experiencing nine months of hell, and
then she hears everybody questioning her story? That`s further re- victimizing her.
PINSKY: Could be, Samantha. Good point.
We`ve got some more details about Nathaniel Kibby`s past. Let me just list some of them for you guys. Kristen, I`ll give you a chance to react.
High school classmates described him as an outcast. He was sort of in and out of the system for a long time. In `98, he was convicted of
assaulting a 16-year-old girl, grabbed her on the neck, wouldn`t let her leave. He apparently went to prison at one point, wound up in the psych
unit after threatening suicide.
In another assault incident, he was in court for allegedly pushing a woman to the ground after he rear-ended her car, and he may have been in
court recently during the time Abby was missing in December, someone with his name showed up to pay a $300 fine for marijuana possession.
Kristen, the guy is, you know, has some issues. He`s the kind of guy that could easily have kidnapped the young girl, right?
KRISTEN BROCKMAN, HOST, "HOLLYWOOD TODAY LIVE": Right. That doesn`t mean he`s guilty, but so oftentimes these criminals that do these things,
do have lengthy criminal history. I can`t help, when we hear the speculation about her being kept in the backyard in this container, you
know, it`s all too familiar of Ariel Castro, Phillip Garrido.
PINSKY: Yes.
BROCKMAN: But back to her sitting on the front row, I have to say I think it`s very brave. To me that says that that`s somebody who wants to
stick it to him for what he`s done.
SCHACHER: Agreed.
PINSKY: Segun, you seem to be having --
ODUOLOWU: Oh, yes. My question for Kristen is I just have a hard time believing that the trailer park idiot kidnapped a girl for nine
months, kept her in a sound proof --
PINSKY: Nobody knew.
ODUOLOWU: But kept her away, and then she magically appears on the doorstep? Listen, she`s reunited with her month --
PINSKY: Which side are you on? Are you saying he`s guilty?
ODUOLOWU: No, I never said --
PINSKY: What`s confusing about this case?
ODUOLOWU: He`s not guilty until he`s proven guilty. I`ll give Anahita credit for beating that into my head. But I`m not going to judge
him. I`m not going to judge her --
PINSKY: Go ahead, Kristen.
BROCKMAN: Well, like Samantha said, I think there`s just so little evidence right now that it`s hard to point one way or the other. But, you
know, they`re talking about her unhealthy appearance, if she was (AUDIO GAP) somewhere like that. If you look at the pictures of her on the
internet when they were looking for her versus the pictures shown in court today, she does look unhealthy. So, that could be something.
PINSKY: It is -- what? Anahita, what?
SEDAGHATFAR: I was going to say it doesn`t matter whether or not this guy was some stranger that kidnapped her, someone she didn`t know, or if he
was someone who groomed her, maybe he was a pedophile, and he manipulated her and she went with him voluntarily, because what I suspect is that the
felony he`s going to be charged with that`s part of the kidnapping charge is going to be sexual assault. It doesn`t matter if she went with him
voluntarily or not, because a 15-year-old cannot consent to sex. So, it`s irrelevant.
PINSKY: That`s right. No, listen, let`s remind ourselves that she`s 15, she`s the victim, no matter whether she had a familiarity with him or
not. There`s not been any allegations of sexual misconduct yet.
We don`t know much of anything, because the D.A. is not telling us much. All we had yesterday was what seemed like a peculiar reaction on the
mom`s part and now the daughter`s. We`re just discussing or feelings about the way people reacted to this. For instance, one of the things I have
concerns about.
Sam, I know you`re throwing your hands up. Just two things. Everybody think about this across the break. Where was her dad? Why
wasn`t he freaking out?
And mom, why wasn`t she losing her mind in front of the press, as opposed to going, mommy, please come home. I want to convince you, you
need to come home now.
SCHACHER: Can we at least give her the benefit of the doubt that in her statement, "I`m grateful I was released"?
PINSKY: A show of hands. The 15-year-old a victim, everyone, hands up, 100 percent.
Segun, come on.
ODUOLOWU: I don`t know. I don`t know.
SEDAGHATFAR: Regardless of whether she went voluntarily or not, that`s the point.
PINSKY: Right. That is the point.
ODUOLOWU: He could have manipulated the --
PINSKY: Doesn`t matter. Doesn`t matter. He`s the adult in the situation.
Let`s get more into the man`s charge and his past brushes with the law when we bring in the behavior bureau.
And later, please say -- this is a story we told you about earlier -- a wife slashed her husband`s throat while he slept, but her defense --
Anahita, you`ll love this, I know you use it somebody -- it was all just a dream.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-four-year-old Nate Kibby answering to a felony kidnapping charge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was like looking at the face of evil.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abby went missing after school last October, touching off a massive effort to find her before she returned last week.
PROSECUTOR: I cannot tell you how a child like that can get through the nine months and endure, but she has done that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family friend sat in court with Abby and her family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abby`s decision to be here, and Abby`s mom decision was -- their decision certainly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abby and her family left the courthouse without comment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam.
We`re discussing the 34-year-old man who allegedly held Abby Hernandez against her will for nine months.
Let`s bring in our behavior bureau. Karamo Brown, host of #OWNShow on Oprah.com, Jennifer Keitt, life coach and radio host, and Emily Roberts,
psychotherapist.
Sam, more details on Kibby than I present in the last block. Tell me some more.
SCHACHER: Yes. OK. So, one neighbor said he`s a loner, known as Crazy Nate. She said she tells girls to stay away from his trailer. A guy
from high school said he was an oddball who wore trench coats and talked about how he was a vampire.
And then, also, they said that he lived by himself ever since that his girlfriend moved out two or three years ago. They also described him, Dr.
Drew, as a gun enthusiast and antigovernment fanatic.
PINSKY: Fantastic.
Jennifer, based on what we`ve learned and what little we heard about Abby, we just don`t know much, you think -- I keep asking this question,
and again just to help us understand why we`re feeling funny about it, do you think there was -- that the mom knew? You`re saying yes?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I`m saying yes.
PINSKY: There`s something missing in this story. Yes, go ahead.
KEITT: Here`s by personal experience, I was 15, an older gentleman took an interest in me. I have to be totally honest with you. I was
infatuated with that.
At 15 years old, you are looking up to these guys. I believe what I saw on her face was maybe a mixture of empowerment, but really guilt as
well. Not guilt that she did anything wrong, but if she fell for it, if she fell for him, if she went away in the beginning with hopes and dreams
and then it turned into this entire nightmare that she found herself in.
PINSKY: That`s right.
KEITT: When I think back to when I was 15, you know what I`m saying? I could have easily been here.
PINSKY: It makes her no less of a victim, right? It makes her no less -- but it helps us understand why we`re having this funny reaction.
Sam, you have trouble with that, though.
SCHACHER: I mean, she had a boyfriend this whole time that she was supposedly in love with. Are you saying she had this boyfriend and at the
same time she was being groomed by this man? It`s also in my opinion you`re assassinating her character, you don`t know.
PINSKY: No, no, no, Samantha, not at all.
KEITT: No, no, no, no.
PINSKY: In fact, Jennifer is identifying with her.
SCHACHER: She had a boyfriend.
KEITT: Not at all. Wait. When a 34-year-old man takes an interest in you and you`re 15 years old, and she`s a beautiful girl, you don`t know
what she was saying to her. I don`t care how great her boyfriend was. I had boyfriends, too, but when an older man takes advantage of the fact that
you are vulnerable, you are young, fresh, you`re hot, you can`t tell me she was any match for him.
SCHACHER: I agree, but I don`t think this is the case.
PINSKY: Well, we get you, but, Emily, that sort of how it happens. If we were to play stats, this would be, Jennifer is describing kind of a
common scenario, and we`re learning tonight also, there had been reportedly a messy divorce between the parents, which could really set the girl up for
this kind of grooming, right?
EMILY ROBERTS: Absolutely. We don`t have enough evidence yet to at least -- I want to know what was going on with regards to like what they
were doing online? What were his records or her records?
PINSKY: Right.
ROBERTS: You also make a great point trauma reorganizes the nervous system, whether it was a messy divorce, if it was something that happened
at school, whatever the case, clearly she has some issues with men. Not to say she`s not a victim. Absolutely she`s a victim. She`s 14, 15 now.
She`s a kid. It`s kidnapping regardless.
PINSKY: That`s right. It doesn`t -- Sam, I think you`re thinking we`re somehow thinking less of her.
SCHACHER: Oh, no, no, no, hold on. I agree with you completely that that could be a scenario, but I don`t like the fact that everyone is
jumping to that being the scenario, when we don`t know that.
PINSKY: Fair enough.
All right. So, Karamo, you settle the score.
KARAMO BROWN, #OWNSHOW: Kidnap, no, manipulated yes. I don`t agree - - I think she took part in this, like she was groomed by this older man. Of course, she is a victim. I feel very bad for her for going to the
situation, but I do not think she was kidnapped. I think she was manipulated and groomed by the man.
ROBERTS: She`s still a kid.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Let me throw this to Jennifer since you`re sort of identifying with her. Having been somehow am bivalent about the
circumstances that she got into makes it more traumatizing, not less, or at least differently.
KEITT: I agree. I agree. It`s so funny. Now that you`re talking about the story in it`s totality, because I didn`t realize about the
divorce you mentioned today, that was me. That was me. We don`t know how vulnerable or girls are when we are going through life and we don`t have
father figures, and we`re looking for that love, that admiration.
Once again, I know we don`t have all of the facts. All I am saying is that face, that face looks like empowered, but it also looks like, oh, my
God, maybe I got in over my head. I want to see this thing to the absolute end. I agree that she should have been there. That`s liberating for her,
but I don`t know that I wholeheartedly agree that she wasn`t in some kind of way sucked into this, and so much, you know, her mind was involved.
PINSKY: Yes, and, Emily, I said somebody powerful, I want to reiterate it. Trauma reorganizes the nervous system. We just hope this
young girl against treatment. She will need it, regardless of what the legal nuances or what the specifics are of this case. She was traumatized
by this guy. This is traumatic for her what she`s going through right now.
Thank you, guys.
Next up, a mom try tries to sell her kids -- speaking of trauma, tries to sell her kids on Craigslist. You`re going to hear from her. She`s
going to talk to me.
And later, she said dreams made her do it, but police say a wife`s attempted murder was a real-life nightmare. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I was not trying to give kids away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that`s exactly what social workers thought (INAUDIBLE) Johnson was trying to do, when she posted this ad on Craigslist
two weeks ago, asking for someone to, quote, "take my five kids until I can find a job and a place to live."
UNIDENTIFEID FEMALE: The Craigslist ad was intended to find somewhere to live for me and all the kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But two days after that posting, all five kids, ranging in age from 2 to 9, were removed from her custody.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I look back at the ad, I saw that it did kind of seem as if I was trying to give up the kids, but I didn`t think
they were going to charge me with neglect and tell me I can`t see the kids except for if a social worker supervised it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam, Anahita, Segun and Kristen.
It is our most tweeted story of the day. That woman, 32-year-old mom, eight months pregnant now with her sixth child, says she regrets the ad`s
wording, but does not regret asking for help. We will speak to her directly in just a moment.
But, first, Sam, you got a copy of the ad. Share it with us if you will.
SCHACHER: I do. And you mentioned Twitter, our Twitter followers are actually really sympathetic towards her.
PINSKY: No kidding.
SCHACHER: Yes.
Now, the ad is still on Craigslist, Dr. Drew. It was posted on July 9th. The header is five kids in need of a temporary home.
It reads, "I`m currently homeless, and looking for someone to take my five kids until I can find a job and place to live. I called DSS and they
won`t take them. The shelter has a waiting list and urban ministries won`t let you work if you come there. I am a certified nursing assistant, but
can`t find work due to numerous doctors` appointments, because my 6-year- old accidentally hung himself. Please help, anyone."
PINSKY: Oh, my gosh.
SCHACHER: I know.
In regard to the hanging story, her 6-year-old reportedly hung himself on the ends of a yarn hat, and he was discovered dangling from a clothing
rack, I know, in a closet.
Now, the mom had to then immediately administer CPR, but her other children were watching. That`s why they all have to go to trauma therapy.
PINSKY: I`m so -- Anahita, you`re saying hmm, what does that mean?
SEDAGHATFAR: Yes. I mean, I just -- as angry as I am, clearly this ad was stupid, whether or not she was trying to ask someone to take her
kids or she wanted a home for all of them, it was stupid.
But I have sympathy for this woman. I mean, she had five young kids, she`s homeless, 7 months pregnant, Dr. Drew, and she did the right thing.
She tried to reach out to the right agencies. I think three of them turned her down. So, I feel bad for her. Maybe we need to look into those
agencies.
PINSKY: I feel Segun coming on with something to say here.
ODUOLOWU: Yes, this is one of these things where I`m going to get jumped on Twitter and on the show. I have no sympathy for this woman. In
fact, as a black man, I really feel that she just set the race back about 50 years.
Here`s my problem. You`re a health care worker, how come you have those many kids and no dad around? Put a condom on. I`m not buying the
story that the wording on her Craigslist`s ad, a Craigslist ad, because we did a couple stories a while back how Craigslist is not the place you want
to go to advertise for anything having to do with people.
I have no sympathy for this woman. You`ve got to know better. And don`t tell me the wording was bad. If you`re a health care professional,
I`m going to assume you have the requisite intelligence not to word it that way.
I don`t buy it. I`m so mad as a black person. I feel disgraced and ashamed that this woman shares the same pigment as me.
PINSKY: So, trauma therapy going out to Samantha.
SCHACHER: Oh, my gosh. Using your famous words, Segun -- shame on you.
ODUOLOWU: I`ll take it, I`ll take it.
SCHACHER: OK, this woman is not in my opinion, a neglectful mother who`s trying to pawn her kids off. In fact I think she`s quite the
opposite. It takes a lot of discipline to become a certified nursing assistant while also being a single mother of five. She lost her job,
Segun.
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: Sam, don`t do that. Sam, don`t do that. Don`t do that, Sam.
SCHACHER: She`s desperate. And you`re kicking her while she`s done.
ODUOLOWU: Do not give me the hooker with a heart of gold story, Sam. What kind of discipline does it take to put a condom on or birth control
not to have six kids? Eight months pregnant --
SCHACHER: So, she deserves this?
ODUOLOWU: Come on.
PINSKY: Kristen, help me out here. Kristen, what do you got?
BROCKMAN: She`s claiming she lost her job to begin with, because she missed work so much because she was taking this child to the doctor`s
appointments and to these therapy appointments for the other children. So, I don`t think she truly doesn`t care about her children or she would never
have done that to begin with.
PINSKY: Of course.
(CROSSTALK)
ODUOLOWU: I`m not saying she didn`t care about her kids. I`m saying, c`mon, you got five of them, one of them hung himself in the closet. Where
is the responsibility as a mother and as a woman? The fact that you women are defending this sad example of a woman --
BROCKMAN: I`m not saying a seventh child is a good idea.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: We wanted to give her a chance to defend herself, because I have a feeling, the one point that Segun is making is that too many kids
may be a legitimate concern, but what`s going on in the household that made her so desperate is what I want to know? Anahita, you have one more
comment.
SEDAGHATFAR: No, I actually agree to a certain extent with Segun, but yes, there needs to be some personal responsibility. Stop having kids of
you can`t take care of them. But she tried, Dr. Drew, she reached out to the appropriate agencies. Where is their accountability here?
PINSKY: Well, that`s a great point, but I have a feeling there`s more going on here than we know just yet. I suspect.
This poor man -- let`s give her one thing. Something made her desperate. Yes, Segun, maybe she had too many kids. She had overhead with
the kids and all, but something made her very desperate. I want to give her a chance to tell us what happened, why she went to the lengths, why the
system failed her.
She will join me next live. She`ll be here with us. She`ll be right with me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Johnson says she only turned to Craigslist after social services denied her request to temporarily place
the kids together in foster care. She says local charities also turned her down. Johnson tells me her kids` medical bills have put her in a desperate
financial situation.
The oldest one has behavior issues and her 6-year-old nearly hanged himself by accident back in April. That near death prompted social
services to open an investigation before the Craigslist ad even went up. Johnson who is expecting her sixth child regrets the ad`s wording but does
not regret asking for help.
MOSHIMALEE JOHNSON, MOTHER WHO POSTED CRAIGSLIST AD: If you need help, ask for it. Do not stay in a bad situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and the Behavior Bureau, Karamo, Emily and Jennifer. Moshimalee Johnson said, she posted the ad on Craigslist after other means
of finding temporary housing has been exhausted. She is single, 8 months pregnant with a sixth child. We will talk to her just a second. But,
first, Jennifer, you all have an interesting affect. You are all taken by this story and by Segun`s comments, I think. What say you, Jennifer?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: Yes. Well, I feel like I have to say something because Segun brought the race right in to it, right there on the
table. So, I do not feel embarrassed to talk to be black. I am questioning, though, her choices. And, what I mean by that is I do happen
to agree with Segun. Condoms do not cost as much as it does to have a child. That is first.
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: Secondly. Here is my biggest, biggest problem. Where are those children`s father?
PINSKY: Yes.
KEITT: And, why is not he being hung out to dry with her? She should not have ever had to go to Craigslist because where is the man that
helped her to get those children. That is my biggest problem with this story.
PINSKY: Right. Yes. There you go.
KEITT: She should have gone to him first.
PINSKY: And, may be she did. Emily, I see you just practically doing a jumping jack in regard to that. Tell me.
EMILY ROBERTS, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I mean where are the dad or dads here. She is going to have another kid. That is six kids. I cannot even
take care of like one kid, right?
PINSKY: Yes.
ROBERTS: And, who is going to help take care of this, if she does get the funding or she does get the child support. I mean there really
needs to be another parent or family member in the picture. Also, what about the money? Where is the child support coming from? Is there any? I
just have so many questions that I would love to ask her.
PINSKY: Yes. Well, I will get her in, in a second. I will give Karamo a chance for -- Go ahead, Karamo.
KARAMO BROWN, TELEVISION HOST: Well, immediately, I want to say as a black man that I completely disagree with Segun. I completely disagree
with Jennifer. I applaud Ms. Johnson for what she has done and I am thankful that she asked for help. And, someone who works in social
services, I know how hard it is to get those. And, no matter if the father is there or not, I want to talk about the fact that this woman tried to
help her children and I applaud her for doing that.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I applaud you Karamo.
KEITT: She tried to help her children without going -- I have got four kids --
BROWN: And, I have two --
KEITT: -- and, I tried too --
BROWN: -- and, I have tried -- I am a single father and I take care of both of my children and she is trying her best. And, I also work in
social services and I know how hard it is for mothers to get services and to get help.
PINSKY: Yes. That is right.
KEITT: But, they should not have to do it alone, though. That is the point because he laid down with her to have those children too. She should
never have to do it alone. Never. Why is she getting blamed?
PINSKY: Everybody is right. Let is go to the source. On the phone, I have got Moshimalee Johnson. She is the mom who has lost her five
children, which I also think is a tragedy after this post on Craigslist. Moshimalee, help us understand what happen here. What led you to this
point of desperation?
JOHNSON: Thank you for calling. I am trying not to laugh because it is very funny to hear somebody arguing over me that I do not even know.
But, I have a very long past and sometimes family is not always the best option. And, I do not have a big support system and I take care of my kids
by myself.
PINSKY: Is there -- I want to interrupt you. Is there more than one dad involved, and if so --
JOHNSON: No. All the children have the same father.
PINSKY: And, where is he? Where is the guy? He is the guy we really want to hold accountable for you.
KEITT: Absolutely.
JOHNSON: I know, right?
PINSKY: Where is he?
JOHNSON: He has some issues.
PINSKY: No kidding. But, he has left you with more issues. And, now the kids have issues because of his issues.
JOHNSON: Yes. So, I do not really, you know, like to go into blaming other people. I take responsibility for my children and I cannot depend on
other people to help me. The only thing I could do is depend on what I can do.
PINSKY: Moshimalee, hold on one second. Karamo, you want to respond to something?
BROWN: Yes. Mrs. Johnson I wanted to say thank you so much for first of all stepping up and trying to help your children. What I want to know
for you is what are you planning on doing, because I recognize you. I like you. I am with you. What are you doing to help this cycle be broken,
because I recognize there is some form of abuse that is happening here?
PINSKY: Right. OK. So, Karamo, what you heard, and I heard it too, she said she had some issues. We are not pointing fingers, but some things
set her up, some trauma set her up to be the way to make some of the choices she has made. And, now that trauma --
JOHNSON: -- just standing for what I believe and being different. Because so many people who have families who have secrets. You know, there
comes a point in time where you just have to separate yourself because you cannot convince everybody to be normal.
PINSKY: So, Moshimalee, getting out of that house is what made you -- getting out of the family or origin is what ended up with your being
homeless. Is that accurate?
JOHNSON: Somewhat.
PINSKY: OK, but when you say --
JOHNSON: You know, just trying to get my kids into a safe place for a temporary time until I could get enough money to get my own place.
PINSKY: Right.
JOHNSON: I was in foster care myself for five years and that was probably the best thing that happened to me. It has been an eye opener,
being back here with my family for the past year. So, I really feel like I need to either make some changes with them. But, I need to help myself
before I can try to save my family. But at the same time --
PINSKY: Let many ask you something. Moshimalee, I agree with you. You know, we always say you have got to put the oxygen mask on yourself
before you put it on children or anybody who is dependent upon you. But, we have seeing images of your son that hung himself. How is he doing?
JOHNSON: Amazing.
PINSKY: He is good?
JOHNSON: Nothing but a miracle.
PINSKY: And, what happened there? We were trying to make sense of that, too.
JOHNSON: My kids informed me that they saw this on a video game. And, my oldest son believed that you can get dug up and come back as a
zombie.
PINSKY: Wow. Emily, you reacted to that.
JOHNSON: Yes. I found him hanging in the closet and just by the grace of God I was able to do CPR and, you know, revived him. And, he
stayed in the hospital for almost two weeks. And, since then he has had numerous follow-up appointments, and I have not been able to go back to
work.
PINSKY: Moshimalee, let me ask one last question. I think people that would be critical of your circumstance would say too many kids. That
is what Segun`s basic point was. What do you say to people who want to hold you accountable for having too many children to be able to manage all
this?
JOHNSON: Well, the kids -- they are already here. I cannot make the kids disappear. I have to make the best of --
PINSKY: No. I understand -- No, of course. But, is there any response you have to your critics who might say that?
JOHNSON: No. All my kids are by the same father. I have worked since I was 14. I have never been on welfare. I just had a tragic
situation and it caused financial problems. And, in the middle of that, you know, I have discovered that family is not always the best option to be
around.
PINSKY: Yes.
JOHNSON: I just made a difficult decision and I just felt like it was best to try to place my kids in foster care until I could get my own
place. I do not have plans, yet, you know, to help me. And my family, I do not really deal with them.
PINSKY: Moshimalee, I think I hear what you are saying. We do not want to point fingers anywhere, but I think it is complicated. I get it.
And, I just want thank you for sharing your story and helping us make sense of it. It is messy, Karamo. But, it easy to say too many kids. Anybody,
please everybody -- with the kids. It is something that all of us need to sort of be more responsible around before you get yourself in a situation
like this.
All right. Now, we are going to switch gears. Entirely, police say a wife slashed her husband in her sleep while he was sleeping. The wife has
a defense that we are calling fishy. Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: She made threats that she would kill me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Investigators say she sliced her husband`s throat with a knife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INVESTIGATOR: He got stitches from almost ear to ear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Jones daughter told investigators her moth had been planning this for about a year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Jennifer, Anahita and Segun. Was the woman dreaming about filleting a fish when she slit her husband who was asleep,
slit his throat. That is her story. The couple`s teenage daughter called 911. The father is going to survive. Anahita, this is a good one for you.
(LAUGHING)
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, T.V. LEGAL ANALYST/DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I knew you were going to come to me with this.
PINSKY: This is a defense. Of course I am going to come to you. Did a defense attorney dream this one up or is this woman on to something?
SEDAGHATFAR: Well, Dr. Drew, there are cases where people do things in their sleep. There has been cases where people are dreaming and they
are eating. They are having sex even in their sleep.
PINSKY: OK. Guess what? Yes, you can blame that too if you were with somebody you did not want to be with.
SEDAGHATFAR: Worse can happen.
PINSKY: But, our Facebook friends are wondering if she took an Ambien, which is a medication that is hypnotic that also, Anahita, has
another good defense. People have used that one, which can cause amnesia and can cause people to do things. But, before I get to the panel,
Anahita, let me play your expert witness, OK?
SEDAGHATFAR: OK.
PINSKY: Here you go. So, the reality is, counsellor, this is a behavior that is not unheard of. It is REM sleep disorder. It involves
kicking, punching, jumping during the dreams where people can actually talk and laugh and scream. Dreams are involved usually being chased or
attacked.
And, of course, when you wake the person up, they can recall the dream. Some of the risk factors include neurodegenerative diseases like
Parkinson`s, chronic sleep disorders, like narcolepsy, even insomnia, anti- depressant medication, as we said hypnotic medication, manias can be associated with this. I have seen that before. And, drug and alcohol --
withdrawal alcohol or intoxication. So, there you go, counsellor. You got the perfect defense.
SEDAGHATFAR: Thank you. That is a perfect expert witness. I would like to retain you for my next case, Dr. Drew. But, it happens, you know?
It happens. I think you just explain it very well. I think in this case it might be a little difficult because there are other facts here.
PINSKY: OK. Well those other factors Segun, the couple is daughter thinks the mom may have been trying to kill her dad for at least a year.
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, SOCIAL ANALYST: I cannot believe we are having this much discourse on a woman who said she slit during --
PINSKY: Sleep slit.
ODUOLOWU: Sleep sliced. I mean I have heard of sleep walking, sleep eating, but sleep slicing? She dreamt she was filleting a fish, what
happened if she thought he was deboning a chicken? What kind of story would we have then? Come on. Anahita, do not defend that.
PINSKY: Jennifer, in 2013 she was charged with disorderly conduct for threatening to stab her husband. Later that same year, she was charged
with domestic violence for threatening the husband`s life. Jennifer what do you think now?
KEITT: When a woman tells you I am going to kill you, you had better believe it. When she gets to that point with her man that she is saying I
am going to slice and dice, he better sleep with one eye open. I am sorry. I am sorry, Dr. Drew. I am not in your possession. But, I believe that
woman had every intent on slicing him.
PINSKY: Sam, seems like it? Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes. When I first read the headline I was like, "Oh, come on! What an embarrassing, stupid joke of a defense." And, then I tried to
give her the benefits of the doubt and I tried to say, "Maybe she did have some sort of history of a sleep disorder. Maybe she is a woman of
character."
But, do not worry, Segun, because then I did my research and I thought, "Oh, wow, I should have trusted my first gut instincts. Yes, her
own daughter believes that she premeditated this for a year." She has a criminal history against her own husband for domestic violence, and as
Jennifer just eloquently said, used to threaten her husband to kill him. Why did not he leave?
SEDAGHATFAR: Rigth. That is my question, Dr. Drew. We talk about co-dependencies, sometimes. Why would this husband continue to sleep in a
bed with her, live with her after she has been already convicted twice for domestic violence against him? She has threatened to kill him --
PINSKY: And, why does she have a knife? Look at that tweet next to your -- next to Anahita`s head there. It says, "Why did she have a knife
in her bedroom?"
ODUOLOWU: But -- has no one seen "Basic Instinct"?
SEDAGHATFAR: That is one of the facts I was pointing to.
ODUOLOWU: No one seen, "Basic Instinct" with the knife and the ice pick beside the bed -- crazy sex is hot. Jennifer, if I had a dollar for
every time a woman told me she was going to kill me that I was dating. I will have about $55.
KEITT: What? OK. Segun, you better sleep with one eye open. You better sleep with one eye open. That is all I am saying.
SEDAGHATFAR: But, that is the fact that this does happen. This is a phenomenon. It has been proven in cases.
PINSKY: Yes. I am your expert witness.
SEDAGHATFAR: You are my expert witness.
PINSKY: I will tell you.
SEDAGHATFAR: Who could be better.
PINSKY: Yes, it does happen.
SEDAGHATFAR: Right.
PINSKY: However, all of the counsellors -- I feel a little embarrassed that I choice to be your expert witness because of all of these
circumstances during this case, you did not tell me about.
SEDAGHATFAR: You should be proud to be my expert witness, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I guess I would be. But, let`s take a little break and then I want to get some of your Facebook social media comments about this story.
It turns out, a lot of you, right now, are blaming Ambien, which is another reasonable thing, because you have all taken it and done a lot of crazy
stuff. I am hearing the producers are telling me that you got a bunch of stuff you want to report. So, we will get that out in just a second.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: She made threats that she would kill him, and she almost did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This is not the first time Judy Jones thought about killing her husband. Investigators say she sliced her
husband`s throat with a knife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: He got stitches from almost ear to ear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Jennifer, Anahita and Segun. Police say they have never quite heard an explanation like this one before. The woman said
she slashed her husband`s throat while he slept because she was dreaming of filleting a fish. She had to go to that kind of detail, guys.
She could not just say, "I do not know what was going on. I was dreaming and I was thinking somebody was chasing me and I slashed." And,
again, we have not answered the question, ladies and gentleman, about why the knife in the bedroom other than Segun has seen a movie where somebody
did that. Anahita, what about the knife in the bedroom?
SEDAGHATFAR: I do not think that is going to help her case. That is one of the fact that I was going to bring up to say, although this is a
plausible defense because it happens. We know the side effects of the sleeping pills, but she had a knife. She had two priors. She had already
threatened to kill him. Her own daughter says that this was planned. So, I do not think this is going to be a good defense for her as much as I
would like it to be, Dr. Drew, I just do not see it.
PINSKY: Sam says yes.
SCHACHER: Yes. I mean, so then did Lorena Bobbitt dream of slicing a hot dog?
PINSKY: Well, she was wide awake. She was wide awake.
SCHACHER: I mean that is my point, though. Like, give me a break, and the fact that there is so much history here.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: And, I am curious as to why the daughter was aware of this premeditation for a year, a whole year.
PINSKY: Yes. It is weird.
SEDAGHATFAR: Why was the husband still with her? I still do not understand that.
PINSKY: Well, he loved her, Anahita. He was in love with her.
ODUOLOWU: Every guy can defend that. Crazy sex is awesome. But, no, crazy sex is awesome, that is why we stay with crazy women. And, that
is there for anybody is interpretation. But, a lot of people are talking about whether or not it was Ambien.
And, as someone who does not like to fly and knows that Ambien helps millions of people get over their fear of flying or are sedated on a plane,
I do not think that Ambien or drugs, and if she uses that defense, I do not think that is the case. I know people are writing in and tweeting us and
on Facebook saying, "Well, I have driven my car on Ambien." That is your crazy thought.
PINSKY: Let me give some list. There is somebody alongside. There was a tweet that said somebody has done crazy stuff on Ambien. Anderson
Cooper, I talk to him all of the time about his use of Ambien.
(LAUGHING)
ODUOLOWU: Abuse of Ambien?
PINSKY: Use of Ambien. He knows. He knows, Anderson, I know. We have talked about it many times. Let me show you something that are out
there. Melissa says I walked right out the door. Gail says I have done the laundry in the middle of the night with no memory of doing it.
SCHACHER: That stuff is good.
PINSKY: Robin says, I have been known to drive in my sleep on Ambien. Jennifer, you want to comment about this?
KEITT: You know, I am wondering, Dr. Drew. OK. If you are saying to yourself over and over again I am going to kill him, I am going to kill
him, I am going to kill him, and you are saying that for over a year. OK, maybe you take a sleeping pill, could you act out what you have been saying
over and over again?
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
KEITT: I mean, maybe?
PINSKY: There is a point here, yes. Yes. And, by the way, maybe she had other psychiatric stuff that was making her so aggressive like a
bipolar disorder. People in these manic states will have -- I have seen people punch their spouse in their sleep when they are manic. I have not
seen people do that with medication side effects. I have not seen anybody really do anything that kind of harmful, Segun.
ODUOLOWU: Well, unless this woman is Wolverine and when she sleeps like claws come out. And, then she had to get up, get a knife and -- come
on. She is not wolverine.
PINSKY: Yes. That is the part that puts it over the top, out of the ordinary. If you notice all of those Ambien stories, they are benign
stories. They are not acting out extreme aggression.
KEITT: Exactly.
SCHACHER: They are doing the laundry. That sounds amazing. Can I have some Ambien please, so I can do the laundry and clean my house in my
sleep? It would be great.
ODUOLOWU: Next commercial break, Sam. I got you, dear.
SCHACHER: Thanks.
PINSKY: -- did you say that was an excuse, Anahit?
SEDAGHATFAR: I did not say that was my excuse.
PINSKY: Not your excuse. OK, I understand.
ODUOLOWU: An excuse of someone you have heard of.
SEDAGHATFAR: Someone I know.
ODUOLOWU: That is also a lawyer.
PINSKY: I think what we should do is reconvene some this panel for the after show and continue to talk about this. But, first Sam, let`s take
some tweets. I am getting a bunch of tweets about the -- I think I got some, the one I have up is this one about the woman who had her kids taken
away. Yes, here it is.
She says, "What have we come to. We are horrified when parents killed their kids and now we condemn this mother." And, I am sympathetic
to what Segun was saying that too many people have screwed up kids is the cornerstone of what has gone wrong in this country. It is where so many of
our financial resources are going. It is where so many of our human resources are going. It is where all of the suffering is coming; but,
still once we are there, we got to help these people.
SCHACHER: Yes. And, here is the thing, Dr. Drew. She has been working full time since she was 14 years old and she tried really hard to
better herself.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: I do not think that she ever foresaw this happening, and she has denied welfare. She is a very prideful woman. And, I think if
people dig deeper and start to research her in his history, I think they will really have sympathy for this situation.
PINSKY: Here is another one. If she asked for help before why would social services decide to step in now. In other words why did they come in
all of the sudden and take her kids away when she had been asking for help before. You know, how far -- what length did she have to go to get their
attention?
SCHACHER: It was the Craigslist ad.
PINSKY: It was the Craigslist ad, which we thought was a little excessive. The judgment in doing so was a little problematic. But, there
was another one here, I want to show you -- there had an Ambien one here, too. Where did it go?
SCHACHER: Did you?
PINSKY: Yes, it is.
SCHACHER: Cleaning ones?
PINSKY: I cannot find it now.
SCHACHER: Darn.
PINSKY: All right. Listen, come to the after show. We will talk more about these and get more of those tweets going. And, also, you can
DVR us anytime and then you can watch us anytime. So, please do so, and of course "Forensic Files" is up next.
END
