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At This Hour

Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson Shot Michael Brown; Calm Prevails in Ferguson Protest; Ukraine Destroys Russian Convoy; Paul Bremer Critical of Obama Over Iraq

Aired August 15, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Did the robbery play into this or does it only matter what happened in those minutes or seconds during the confrontation between Michael Brown and the police officer?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, that is the discussion and that discussion has certainly changed just over the last 90 minutes.

It may change more in a little bit, Don. We do expert to hear from Ron Johnson, the Highway Patrol chief overseeing the situation now. Jake Tapper is going to have an interview with Governor Jay Nixon, at 12:30 on CNN.

We have a lot more information about what's going on in Ferguson. We'll be right back after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Let's get back to the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. We know a lot more than we did just two hours ago. This is what we were told this morning. This morning, Ferguson police chief, they named Darren Wilson as the officer who shot and killed Michael Brown. He's a six-year veteran of the police force there. Police say he received a 911 call of a robbery at a nearby convenience store.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: Dispatch gave a description of the suspect over the radio. Wilson encountered Brown soon after. The documents go on to say that Brown was accused of grabbing a pack of Swisher Sweet Cigars from the store. But the document did not say that Brown had a weapon.

I want to turn back to Ana Cabrera who is live in Ferguson right now.

We do know that we're going to hear from the Missouri Governor Jay Nixon at the top of hour. I know there's been a lot of informing coming out in that packet but again it's interesting we didn't learn that much information about the officer.

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. We are still working to try to gather information about that officer. Of course, we are checking all kinds of public records to look into this officer's history, to learn more about who he is personally, and we are very careful here on CNN to vet information to make sure we are bringing accurate informing to you and your viewers. We are working to gather more informing on this officer, I want everybody to know, but we want to make sure we're talking about the right Darren Wilson before we bring any information forward.

So that being said, what we do know about the officer is just that he was a six-year veteran. He had no disciplinary actions on his record as a Ferguson police officer and was described by the police chief to us as somebody who was nice and well mannered and feels terrible about what has happened here in his community.

What I don't think is denied by anybody is there is still a problem within the community in terms of the racial tension and the African- American population. By many accounts, people we've been talking to, feel like they have been oppressed in this community for years, and this was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak. This incident involving Michael Brown's shooting and the response by police afterwards with the military vehicles and that type of thing that has really ignited the conversation and the issues that are very deep in this community. And speaking of just how deep and passionate people are, you know, the issue, and people are in this community, and we've been seeing protesters gather in large numbers immediately following that police officer press conference and people are angry. You know, I know the police chief told me this morning, they are putting this informing forward because they felt like the police officer, Darren Wilson, was going to be in a safe and secure location, and they thought his safety would no longer be in jeopardy, but also they want to make a stride and show good faith of trying to be transparent and releasing information that people are calling out for. That has been a big question. People have been asking who is the person who killed this unarmed teenager, and so he put that name out there. But people we're hearing here are saying that's not good enough.

In addition, we heard from one resident who said that this almost -- the way this press conference was handled this morning almost does more harm than good because there was so much focus on the robbery. So a lot of the residents in this community who have been angry over this incident say this is almost like another example of the police officers here trying to villainize the victim of the shooting. And that's the dialogue, that's the narrative and the conversation we're hearing right here on the ground at this quick trip that has been deemed the ground zero of the protests -- Michaela and John?

PEREIRA: Ana, we appreciate it. Thanks so much. We know you are working your contacts as best you can. We'll get back to you when it warrants.

Tension certainly has poured into the street in the wake of the shooting in the wake of the shooting of Michael Brown. We've seen images that look more lout of a war zone than a community in America. Is it a rogue police department or is there a deep racial divide? We'll explore that after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: We now know the name of the police officer who shot Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, Darren Wilson. Last night, in the town of Ferguson, there was an unusual calm. Well, unusual for this week at least there this as the Missouri State Highway Patrol took charge of security and their captain, Ron Johnson, walked together with the protesters.

PEREIRA: Let's remind you what it looked like, though, for the last few days. Police in riot gear, SWAT, armored cars patrolling the streets, plastic pellets, tear gas. Some say it looked more like pictures from the civil rights area than 2013.

Let's bring in Mo Ivory, host of the "Mo Ivory Show" on radio; and CNN commentator, L.Z. Granderson.

L.Z., I want to start with you, because I think an hour ago, we probably would have been having a very different conversation, but in light of the news that we have found out, the name of the officer involved in the shooting, which is something many people have been pushing for for a long time in terms of transparency, but then this information about a so-called strong arm robbery. How does this change things for you? Do you feel differently now? What questions do you have going forward?

GRANDERSON: Well, it doesn't change anything for me because the piece that I wrote Monday asking about how many unarmed black people need to be killed hasn't really been changed. The thing for me from the very beginning is the fact that there's been a long history of distrust of African-American men, and that usually leads to violence and some sort of statement about the person who gunned them down fearing for their lives, and so from my perspective, it really hasn't changed a great deal. From all the witnesses that have come forward, what we know or what we've been told by witnesses anyway is that Michael allegedly had his hands up when he was repeatedly shot by the officer. Nothing that came out today changes that. And until we get the autopsy report, I don't think we have any facts that would change that.

So my fear, obviously, is that this new information will have people turn away from the real issue, which is whether or not excessive force was used and led to the death of Michael Brown, not whether or not Michael Brown took some cigarettes -- took cigars out of a store.

BERMAN: I hear what you are saying, L.Z.

And I'll guess I'll ask you, Mo, does it change the discussion though if you are talking about the death of an unarmed civilian or the death of a suspect? How does that change the discussion? Because if he was a suspect in this strong-arm robbery, does that change the discussion, Mo? Would that have changed the environment in Ferguson over the last five days?

MO IVORY, ATTORNEY & HOST, THE MO IVORY SHOW: No, I don't believe it would have. But I want to say it has already changed the discussion. We found out this information and the discussion has already changed. What they will do now, which is what always happens, is the victim becomes the person that gets put on trial. Every single time a black man is killed, unarmed at the hands of the police, they become the person that gets put on trial, and it's already happening right now. Oh, well, Michael Brown is a felon. Michael Brown robbed a store. Oh, Michael Brown -- we're already hearing it. Twitter is going crazy. My phone has been blowing up. Of course, it's going to change the conversation. It already has. Just like L.Z. said, it's not change the fact that he was gunned down while his hands were up. Whether or not there was a burglary, whether they want to characterize it as a robbery, it does not change that fact. Because what it could have been, if he was a suspect, if it is true that the police officer had reasonable suspicion, then he could have simply arrested them. He could have put them in the back of the police car. He could have taken them to the Ferguson Police Department. They would be living. He would be living right now.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: I want to get more questions into L.Z.

Because I want us to look forward. This is the issue. I'm worried we're going to forget to look at the end game. The end game is figuring out how we can make things better on the ground in Ferguson and around the country and police and African-Americans and other minority groups. L.Z., where do we start?

GRANDERSON: I think we start with the transparency that we've been pushing for, for a better part of a week now. The reason why people are automatically assuming that whatever details come out from the police at this point is some sort of elaborate scheme to make a cover up is because things have not been transparent. There's so many questions still out there right now. If the young man with Michael Brown was allegedly part of the robbery, why hasn't he been arrested? Why hasn't he been arrested? I think transparency for Ferguson and, going forward, other police stations, is what we need.

IVORY: L.Z., not only that, why hasn't he been even been questioned by the Ferguson police?

BERMAN: These are terrific questions, questions I think should be put to the police as they face reporters. I believe that's going to happen next hour. We'll stay on that.

L.Z. Granderson, Mo Ivory, thanks so much for being with us.

We will continue to follow this story on CNN.

Plus, we have the latest on the crisis in Iraq. President Obama saying there will be more air strikes going on there. Up next, we'll speak with a man who essentially ran that country for more than a year after the invasion of 2003. Ambassador Paul Bremer, he says the U.S. should be doing more now. We'll hear his argument next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

PEREIRA: Some breaking news, out of Ukrainian. That country's president says they have destroyed most of a Russian military convoy that crossed into the country overnight. Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, says he, quote, "Knew nothing about that convoy." Moscow says it did sent a convoy carrying humanitarian aid for the people of Ukraine. U.N. peacekeepers say they don't think there's any relation between the mission trucks and the aid trucks. Some of the concern was it was either aid for the pro-Russian separatists or perhaps a Trojan horse of some sort.

BERMAN: Yeah, very confusing what's going on right now.

Joining us, Ambassador Paul Bremer. Of course, Ambassador Bremer essentially ran Iraq as the U.S. envoy there between 2003 and 2004.

Ambassador, great to have you. We do want to talk about Iraq in just a moment, but, first, you also have decades of experience in foreign policy as well. This information we're just getting from Ukraine, the Ukrainian president saying their troops were in direct confrontation with a Russian military convoy. If that's the case, that seems to be awfully dangerous news.

PAUL BREMER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Well, I'm sympathetic with the Ukrainian position with this. They, after all, have sovereign borders with Russia and the Russians have stirred up all this problem in eastern Ukraine. I think they are rightly concerned about this food convoy. And I read the stories this morning that there was an actual military convoy coming across into a different site. Let's see how it all develops. If the Russians have crossed in with Russian military forces into Ukraine, it's the first time that's happened, really, since the end of World War II, that a country has done that, and it's a very serious problem for American foreign policy if it's true.

BERMAN: Not counting Crimea, which they did, albeit in different uniforms.

(CROSSTALK)

BREMER: Yes, but they didn't invade Crimea, they simply took it over. This, from the report you just read, sounds like forces crossing an international border to get into Ukraine.

BERMAN: Good point.

PEREIRA: Let's turn our sights on Iraq for a second. Sir, we know you've been vocal in criticizing the Obama administration for pulling our troops out of Iraq. As you look at the situation there, as ISIS continues its march, how many U.S. ground troops would you station right now in Iraq, and what would you have them do?

BREMER: Well, I think, first of all, the president deserves credit for re-engaging militarily. A week ago, it was a hard decision for the reasons we know. He set out a red line basically in his interview with "The New York Times" on Saturday when he said we will not allow the establishment of an Islamic caliphate in Iraq or Syria. That's a pretty clear statement of objective. The question then is, how do we prevent that from happening, the establishment of an effective caliphate there. I think there's a lot more that needs to be done. Doesn't necessarily call for X number of combat forces on the ground. I don't have enough expertise to comment on that. But there are things we could do.

BERMAN: Such as, sir? I understand you don't want to get into troop positioning, but are you talking about ground troops, just more air strikes? I'd like to understand the scope of what you're after.

BREMER: First of all, there are three things we should do. First of all, we need to greatly step up the assistance we're giving to the Kurdish military. I know we've started to getting some more and ammunition in. They need heavy equipment to deal with the stolen American equipment tank, and armored personnel carriers that ISIS has. They need airlift to move their forces. They're defending a 650-mile frontier. They need better intelligence and so forth. Secondly, as the Iraqi government reconstitutes itself, we should be doing everything we can to help them pull back together the Iraqi military that we trained. All of the officers down to brigade level were purged by al Maliki. They need to be put back together. Thirdly, the point you're getting at, we need to have a more robust, initially, air campaign against the lines of communication of ISIS against their supply depots and their staging areas, including over in Syria. The border doesn't really exist anymore. Certainly, not in ISIS terms. And we need to be -- be prepared to do all of those things. Whether combat forces, in the end, will be needed on the ground remains to be seen. If we act vigorously now, we probably can avoid that.

PEREIRA: You referred to Nouri al Maliki. We know that that didn't end well. He ended up being sort of viewed as a disaster in that nation. Tell us what you know, if you know anything of the man that is set now to replace him, Haider al Abadi. Do you have any reason to believe he is going to be better at unifying Iraq and getting it back towards more stability?

BREMER: Well, I think he probably will be. I knew him when he was there. He was the minister of communications. He proved himself to be a good executive. He's a trained engineer. Did most of his education in Britain. He was effective as minister of communications. Opened up the country to cellular service, for example. Whether he'll be as effective as a player on the broader stage, we'll have to see. He has said the right things about broadening the government, which means two things. First, he's got to get some kind of working relationship with the Kurds. Secondly, he must make an effort to bring the Sunnis, particularly the Sunni tribes, in the western part of Iraq, where ISIS has now got a presence. The tribes -- you know, the ideology of ISIS is so radical that the tribes aren't going to support that. They didn't support it when we did the surge in 2006 and '07, and that's why we were able to defeat al Qaeda in Iraq.

BERMAN: Sir, have you been shocked by how poorly the Iraqi military itself performed over the last two months, particularly beginning when this mess happened, it started in June? You worked so hard to help train or begin the training of the Iraqi military. They just melted away.

BREMER: Well, two things to remember. First of all, that Iraqi military did defeat al Qaeda with our help. By 2009, they were defeated. As the president and the vice president pointed out when they came into office, basically, al Qaeda had been defeated. It was defeated by the Iraqi army. The real problem was al Maliki's purging down to the brigade level of many of those officers, and particularly in the units that collapsed up around Mosul. It's obvious that the enlisted men did not have faith in those officers anymore. So of course, they collapsed. Now, we have to reconstitute it, help them do that.

PEREIRA: Former envoy to Iraq, Paul Bremer, thank you, about both the breaking news and the ongoing situation in Iraq. Hopefully, you can join us again here on CNN very soon.

BREMER: Thank you.

BERMAN: That's all for us @THISHOUR.

I'm John Berman.

PEREIRA: I'm Michaela Pereira.

Let's head over to "LEGAL VIEW" after a quick break.

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