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Teen Killed Linked to Crime; Police Link Teen to Robbery

Aired August 15, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, I'm Brooke Baldwin, live here in New York.

We have a lot of new developments out of Ferguson, Missouri, including this video just released showing a suspect resembling 18-year-old Michael Brown allegedly stealing cigars in what police are calling a strong-arm robbery. Here are the still frames. You've seen these. Stand by for the video. Ten minutes later, according to police records, Michael Brown was shot and killed by a police officer.

Jake.

I don't know if Jake Tapper can hear me. But, Jake, if -- why don't we just hit pause. Let's just take a look at this video. I'm not going to talk over it. I want you to take it in. Then we'll chat.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: OK.

BALDWIN: OK. Let's stay on the video. And, Jake, I don't know if you can see it, but for our viewers, because I just want to be precise, this is what we have. This is page seven of this document drawn from the Ferguson Police Department. So as we watch this, and I know it's quick, this is what police say. They say they identified the man in that red cap as Michael Brown. And they say he is inside this store, along with his friend, Darrion Johnson. So what they're saying is that they were in the store and the shorter man, according to police, was the clerk. And you can see the individual in the white t-shirt, khaki shorts, hat, shoving, has the cigars in hand, walks out of the store, Jake Tapper.

That is the gist of what we can now finally see. We saw the still pictures released this morning. Finally, the video being released, Jake. But still, you know, and I've been hearing the chorus all day. You've been talking to people there in the community. And we'll talk about your interview with the governor and Captain Johnson in a minute. But what you're hearing from the community is they're saying, OK, with this - with this -- it's not a shoplifting, because he was shoving, according to police, it is a strong-arm robbery. They're saying that does not justify shooting and killing this young man.

TAPPER: Right. And that's been the response from the people here in Ferguson, regardless of what happened in the convenience store, they say, even if that is Michael Brown and there are, of course, a lot of people who are suspicious of not only the timing of the release of this video, but also the video itself and whether or not it is definitively Michael Brown. People say it doesn't matter because even if police were going to stop him and question him, it doesn't justify what happened.

We have heard from a number of witnesses over the last week or so who describe a scene that is very different from the one that Ferguson police describe. Ferguson police describing a scene where Michael Brown made a move for the gun of the officer. Other witnesses saying that's not what happened. That Brown was trying to get away, and, in fact, had his hands up when he was shot by the officer.

So certainly the release of this video does add new information to what we know about this case. New information about why Brown may have been stopped. Why Brown and his friend, Antonio (ph), may have been stopped. And yet it doesn't answer questions or resolve matters for people here in the community because as far as they're concerned, it is almost a completely distinct and separate incident, even if, in the minds of the police, they are entirely related, Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Let's back up for a minute because if people are just joining us, I really want to help connect the dots. And I know it's impossible because we don't have facts on a lot of this. But once we see -- and, again, it is Ferguson police saying that this was Michael Brown in the cap. We see him leaving the store. I hear you that people in the community aren't entirely sure that it was Michael Brown.

The next thing we have seen, there are pictures, 15 minutes or so after the call from the clerk inside of this convenience store to police dispatch. The officer, who was identified today as 28-year-old Darren Wilson, six years on the force. He's patrolling the neighborhood, right, Jake? He's patrolling the neighborhood. He hears about the strong-arm robbery, and he responds. Take it from there.

TAPPER: Well, look, I mean, without question, it is, as far as a law enforcement matter, relevant. And it also gets into when this matter is assessed, evaluated, potentially adjudicated, into the state of mind of the officer. Was this person a suspect in what was a law enforcement event where somebody strong-armed, robbed a convenience store. Is this person potentially violent? Those are the questions that police officers are going to say were in the mind of the shooting officer.

But, as I said, in the community, people say, look, even if that was Michael Brown and even if he did take these cigars in what is called a strong-armed robbery, that is not a reason to end his life. And so far we are still waiting for information, specifically about any investigation that -- the investigations have really just been launched both any St. Louis County Police and also a separate investigation by the Justice Department into what happened. And with all the witnesses that have been out there, and some of them -- one of them we spoke with yesterday who had yet to be interviewed by police, he said. There's still a lot of questions here, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I think almost as important as what we know, it's what we don't know. And we don't know the perspective of the officer. We don't know how -- if there was a scuffle in the police car, if there was a trying - a back and forth over a weapon or if Michael Brown, as the eyewitnesses have said, was walking through the street, hands up and he was shot. Jake Tapper, stand by, because you're going to stick with me through

the hour there live from Ferguson. But we are now hearing, this is important to point out, we have just gotten a statement from Michael Brown's family for the very first time since the release of all this information by the Ferguson Police Department. So this is pertinent. This is what they're saying about Michael Brown.

They say the "family is beyond outraged at the devious way the police chief has chosen to disseminate piecemeal information in a manner intended to assassinate the character of their son following such a brutal assassination of his person in broad daylight. There is nothing, based on the facts that have been placed before us, that can justify the execution-style murder of their child by this police officer as he held his hands up, which is the universal sign of surrender. It is no way transparent to release the still photographs alleged to be Michael Brown and refuse to release the photographs of the officer that executed him."

So that is what we're hearing from the family. That is the first reaction we have to the new developments that have come out this morning and really sparked huge discussions in this Missouri community.

Don Lemon has been there.

Don, I was just watching your back and forth with these different people, you playing devil's advocate. Tell me what the folks are saying.

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're upset by it. Like I told Wolf Blitzer earlier, they think it's suspicious. They think it's shady. They are - They don't - well, many of them just really don't believe it. And so earlier where there had not been any protests out here, now there are protests. They're saying they're not going to let this stop them. You see them here, Brooke, to right. They gathered on the street corner here. You see them behind me over my shoulder here. And then you see them -- we're going to walk this way and see if we can talk to some of them. You see them here in front of the QT, the Quik Trip, the one that has been burned out.

Move over and let me talk to you. Can you sit over here.

What do you make of the timing of the release of this video?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I believe that the timing is suspect, just like everything, with the investigation is suspect. The whole thing. I mean it's just -- it doesn't make sense. It's time for America, I mean, to really look at what goes on with officer procedures in every kind of situation like this.

LEMON: Does it make a difference to you about what happened or possibly happened inside the convenience store, the releasing of information this morning?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it makes a difference (ph).

LEMON: I'm sorry?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It makes a difference.

LEMON: It makes a difference how so?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because they not sure - they should finish the investigation first before they release that. And the way they -- the captain walked away and just left it as plain as he did, he shouldn't have done that. He should have stayed and answered questions.

LEMON: You think he should have stayed and asked questions.

There are people that have been gathering around here every single day. Most of it has been peaceful the last couple of days. But there was some, you know, obviously some boisterous incidents that happened earlier. You concerned about that at all?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I'm concerned about it. I don't think they should have handled it that way. They should have kept the protests peaceful.

LEMON: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And wait until the investigation was done.

LEMON: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But even -

LEMON: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even if - even if the cameras show that they're saying cigerellos (ph) were stolen, still the American people need to know what the semantics used in saying that he strong-arm and - a strong-arm robbery. And he's an 18-year-old kid and still did not - it still should not have eventuated to him being shot and murdered like that. There are officer procedures that could have been taken better. Things could have been done in a different light. But for him to lose his life and be shot 10 times, even as an 18-year-old kid taking some cigerellos is a - a crime --

LEMON: It doesn't justify the shooting --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't justify the murder.

LEMON: And killing of an unarmed teenager.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

LEMON: Hey, Brooke, again, look, more protesters gathering here. OK. That's fine. If you don't want to be on camera, then you need to talk to me after this because I'm live, all right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All right.

LEMON: All right, I'll talk to you after this. But again, you see, Brooke, that there are protesters gathering here

again. And, you know, I think we're going to be here tonight. There will be protesters and we'll be following it, Brooke. But you hear what people say, they don't think, you know, it really -- what happened in the convenience store if it did happen it justifies the shooting and killing of an unarmed teenager.

BALDWIN: Don, let me just stay with you as we're looking at these pictures of all these people dispersed and frustrated. What we're missing is the information once we see - I don't know if you can hear me. Give me the thumbs up, Don, if you can hear me.

LEMON: I can hear you.

BALDWIN: OK. What we're missing - what we're missing is the information in the street from police. The facts. Do we know when police - do we know when police will release that information?

LEMON: I'm -- say one more time, Brooke, it's very loud here. One more time.

BALDWIN: Do we know when - do we know when Ferguson police or whoever is overseeing this now will release the information as far as what happened on the street, how many shots fired, the engagement between the officer and Michael Brown. We know nothing.

LEMON: We know - we don't know specific details as it relates to that part of the investigation or that incident report. But, Brooke, if you look on the incident report that has to do whatever happened in the convenience store, it does reference, and there are some details about the shooting and about how the officer came upon Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson. And it also says that they believe the officer fired four to six shots. That's on page 17, if you look at it, Brooke. And it also says what they believe the suspect in the convenience store was wearing and the suspect on the street, just around the corner was wearing. So there are some details about the shooting that's in that particular police report that was released this morning. But that's not the police report that's specific to the shooting.

BALDWIN: Yes, I guess that -- that's what I was getting at. I have it. And I've read it through, as I know you have.

Don Lemon, stay with us. We'll come back to you a little later this hour.

Coming up here, we will interview a member of the NAACP. How are they reacting to today's new developments there in Ferguson.

Also ahead, now that police say Michael Brown was a suspect in this strong-arm robbery, does that change the case? We'll bring in lawyers, because one attorney we're talking to says it actually does make a huge difference. He'll explain, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Alongside me, Jake Tapper, live in Ferguson.

And we have this new video just in to CNN. Police are naming 18-year- old Michael Brown as a suspect in this convenience store strong-arm robbery is what this is. That's because he, according to police, and you can see, shoved this clerk. So that takes it from shoplifting to strong-arm robbery, just to explain. All of this allegedly happening minutes before Brown was shot and killed by a police officer.

TAPPER: But six days later, of course, many more questions remain. CNN's Susan Candiotti takes a look as we all as a country try to piece together what happened that day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dramatic surveillance photos taken inside a convenience store show a robbery in progress. The suspect is tall, heavy, unarmed, and seen grabbing what police say is a box of cigars there in his right hand. The suspect's left hand appears to be at the throat of a clerk. The suspect is accused of leaving without paying. The store calls 911.

Question, is this 18-year-old Michael Brown? Answer, police say yes. He appears to be wearing a white t-shirt, khaki shorts, flip flops and a red St. Louis baseball cap. The same clothes Brown was wearing when he was shot. The same red baseball cap is seen lying in the street.

Question, who was with Brown in the store? Police say it appears to be Dorian Johnson. They say his description matches the young man stopped by police with the friend he called "Big Mike." No charges will be filed against Johnson in that robbery case.

Minutes later, Brown and his friend are confronted by a police officer in his cruiser about a quarter mile away. Question, who's the officer? Six days after the shooting, we now know his name, Darren Wilson.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's been a police officer for six years. Has had no disciplinary action taken against him.

CANDIOTTI: The biggest question, why did Officer Wilson shoot brown? The answer remains murky.

DORIAN JOHNSON: The officer says get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of the street, verbatim, was his words.

CANDIOTTI: Johnson says a squad car starts to leave, but goes into reverse, backing up within inches of the teens.

JOHNSON: At that time he all reached out the window with his left arm. He grabbed on to my friend, Big Mike's throat, and he's trying to pull him in the vehicle.

CANDIOTTI: What little police have said differs sharply.

CHIEF JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS CO. POLICE: One of those individuals at the time came into the -- as the officer was exiting his police car, allegedly pushed the police officer back into the car where he physically assaulted the police officer.

CANDIOTTI: Police say the two struggle over the officer's gun.

BELMAR: There was at least one shot fired within the car.

CANDIOTTI (on camera): Mike Brown's friend says Brown was just trying to get away, not fighting for the gun.

JOHNSON: I saw the fire come out the barrel and I instantly knew that it was a gun. I looked at my friend, Big Mike, and I saw that he was struck in the chest or upper region, because I saw blood splattered down his side.

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Another witness is watching from a distance.

TIFFANY MITCHELL, WITNESS: The officer gets out of his vehicle and pursues Michael as he's shooting his weapon. Michael jerks his body as if he was hit.

JOHNSON: And at that time, he turned around with his hands up, beginning to tell the officer that he was unarmed, and to tell him to stop shooting.

MITCHELL: And then he turns around, faces the officer and puts his hands up and the officer continues to shoot him until he goes down to the ground.

CANDIOTTI: Question, how many times was Brown shot? We don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't release anything from the coroner's report because I don't know.

CANDIOTTI: Question, how did Officer Wilson's face get swollen, and what's his explanation for shooting Brown? We don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't release anything about the interviews with the officers or any of the witnesses because I don't know. Yes. And I really don't want to know until this is done.

CANDIOTTI: And when will that be? We don't know that either.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Susan Candiotti there.

So, does the news about Michael Brown allegedly being part of this robbery change the equation a bit? You know, listen, obviously people are falling on both sides of that. So let's just go ahead and bring in our two lawyers here, Paul Callan and Danny Cevallos. And I think it's really important to point out here what we do know. And when people are hearing this word "robbery," a lot of folks, Paul, to you, are saying, hang on, hang on, no, he was just stealing some cigars. This was shoplifting. But it's not. Explain why.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No, it's not shoplifting. The definition of robbery in Missouri, and by the way in most other places, is the use of force to either take property or retain property. And in this case, it would be he took the property and then he fought with the owner of the store to retain the property. That's considered a forcible robbery. It's robbery in the second degree, a class b felony, very, very serious crime under Missouri law. So this is not a glorified shoplift. This is a real robbery under Missouri law. Now, he is a juvenile, in all probability, so it wouldn't be handled as an adult crime.

BALDWIN: OK. So, Danny Cevallos, given that explanation, you say this news, this information and now we have this video police saying it was, in fact, Michael Brown, you say that changes -- that changes the story.

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It changes it a lot from a legal perspective. Look, the narrative yesterday was from Dorian Johnson and others that these people were walking down the street minding their own business. That's fine. Today the narrative now appears to be, they may have been involved in, not a shoplifting, but a robbery. And why is that important? It's because it's a felony. And that -- if you are a fleeing felon, the Supreme Court has said, where someone is a fleeing felon and they threaten the officer with serious bodily harm, then there may be authority to use deadly force.

Now, it's a separate question whether or not he, in fact, held up his hands and said don't shoot or I'm unarmed or whatever he said. That's a factual inquiry. And the police may have to answer for that. But to say that these facts today change nothing is to ignore the law. It certainly can be your opinion, but it ignores the law.

BALDWIN: Well, let me - let me -

CEVALLOS: And the law is clear that if a dangerous fleeing felon is fleeing, police can use deadly force.

BALDWIN: Let me push you - just hearing from a woman in the community and I think if she were sitting here, just hearing her conversation with Don Lemon, this is what she would want to know. She would say, listen, in this country, you're innocent until proven guilty. Unfortunately, if, in fact, he was guilty of this strong-arm robbery, he is not alive to face the, you know, justice system in this country. And hearing from the family and their reaction to, you know, police releasing this tape and the pictures, talking about the character assassination of their son, is that fair?

CALLAN: Well, it -

CEVALLOS: Well, it's - go ahead, Paul.

CALLAN: You know, is it any fairer than attacking the police officer where we don't even have film of what he saw. OK?

BALDWIN: We don't. Where is that?

CALLAN: So -- which is why, by the way, there's an instruction and Danny Cevallos has heard it many times as a trial lawyer, that you get in a trial and you know what the judge says? BALDWIN: What?

CALLAN: Wait until the end of the case and all of the facts are in before you make up your mind.

BALDWIN: Right.

CALLAN: And I don't know -- frankly, this is a stunning development in this case because -- and it's going to shift --

BALDWIN: Which part of it? Which part?

CALLAN: Well, it's going to shift the landscape enormously because, remember, as of yesterday, it was the only story we heard was that this officer, without provocation, dragged this young man into the car by his neck.

BALDWIN: Right.

CALLAN: And, of course, the young man was going to react adversely. A struggle ensued. And the gun was discharged in the police cruiser.

BALDWIN: Right.

CALLAN: Now we know he was wanted in a robbery, so there was valid grounds to stop him and arrest him. And if he tried to take the officer's gun and it was discharged, the officer certainly can't be blamed for that part of the encounter. Now, that doesn't let him off the hook for part two, if the young man had his hands up and the officer fired, then the officer may still be guilty of a crime.

BALDWIN: Here's my follow-up to you on that because we know, and we saw in the video, according to police, that it was his friend, Darrion Johnson, who was with him, allegedly stealing these cigars. And so we have heard and seen Darrion Johnson on our air, our media outlets, you know, telling his story as an eyewitness there, telling the story of Michael Brown with his hands up, you know, universal sign of surrender. But yet he never once mentioned that they were inside this convenience store pilfering cigars. And I'm wondering if that then would force a lot of people to question the veracity of his account.

CALLAN: Well, it certainly would. And there's another charge that a jury gets on credibility, which is if a witness is lying about one part of his story, you can assume he might be lying about the other part of his story. Now, of course, sometimes you can be truthful in one part of your story. But credibility here is undermined severely. And, of course, we haven't heard what the police officer has to say as to why he fired that fatal shot.

BALDWIN: And the key question, why wasn't all of this released on day one? We're talking -- we have more questions. We'll talk more next hour on all of this. Danny Cevallos and Paul Callan, thank you both very, very much.

CEVALLOS: Thank you. BALDWIN: Coming up, we will take you to Ferguson. You will hear from a community leader there, a member of the NAACP, reacting very strongly about this -- the fact that police have now released this video. And that organization is also conducting its own investigation into what happened on Saturday. Where does that stand? We'll ask, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)