Return to Transcripts main page

Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Missouri Governor and Highway Patrol Press Conference in Ferguson; Interview with Nixon and Johnson

Aired August 15, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

GOVERNOR JAY NIXON (D), MISSOURI: I've said certain things should have come out sooner rather than they did later -- sooner. But that's not the point. The point is where we stand here, and where we're standing here right now is that new facts are out that weren't out yesterday.

But those are not the full picture of anything. Those are some facts that came out. I'm not saying they're not relevant or important. We cannot forget. They're facts. They're pieces of information.

QUESTION: (Inaudible).

NIXON: No, I think the focal point here remains, you know, to figure out how and why Michael brown was killed and to get justice as appropriate in that situation.

Now, because of the appropriate outpouring of angst about both the substance and the process, what Captain Jackson and his team are attempting to do -- excuse me, Captain Johnson -- is to make sure that folks have a chance to give their voice as well as keep the peace at the same time. That's our focus.

QUESTION: (Inaudible)

NIXON: Well, I think you saw it -- I think everybody saw a clear change of tone and operational activities yesterday. I'll stand by that.

Yes, Kevin?

QUESTION: Governor, there is a possibility, just a possibility, that the two investigations might find the officer acted properly in shooting Michael Brown in self-defense.

What are we doing to prepare (inaudible).

NIXON: I think there's a lot of steps along the way that are going to cause angst and pressure. That's natural here and appropriate, appropriate, frankly.

There's a young man that was killed. There's an officer involved in that. There's a great deal of energy, appropriate, accurate, real energy, and so I think we'll look at those guideposts and engage them accordingly. But I think, you know, we're hoping to make sure that during this process, this difficult challenging process, that there is focused energy and peace for the businesses and piece in this community.

Here and then there. Here and then there.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) for their safety and everybody's safety (inaudible).

NIXON: I'll leave those questions. The captain or colonel will get their operational -- I just don't know. Yes.

QUESTION: What's your reaction (inaudible).

NIXON: We're focused on the responsibilities we have here.

QUESTION: Governor, right here.

NIXON: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

QUESTION: Looking at Ferguson in the way that it has blown up I guess, how can you look at the other foundations in the surrounding communities are failing, are closing, losing its accreditation.

The school districts are fighting amongst each other. Michael Brown graduated from a high school. He was going on to further his education in a trade school.

But now for the other children that came from the other communities that came into this community and had this uproar, how are you going to enthusiastically help their educational level?

NIXON: Obviously, some of the schools have already started. Normandy -- yeah, Riverview has. Normandy opens on Monday.

I think we've all got a lot of things to do to make sure those children have the opportunity to begin school. How do we get into these long-range issues? We've got to be doing a lot. That's not a simple question.

But I will tell you making sure we improve the quality and access to education and provide that opportunity for all our kids. Public schools are the backbone of our state. And we'll continue working. I do think it's especially challenging here with some of the issues that have arisen.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) my parents marched peacefully. It didn't matter which side it was on, but they gave me a quality education in the city of St. Louis.

Our city schools are closing, governor. You're the chief. You're the one. You're the admiral. You're the head. Why are our schools closing? Why are they boarded up, being sold off?

NIXON: I'll get back to -- we'll continue our discussion because these are major issues. Let me just quickly say that we've seen challenges in St. Louis City schools. I don't mean to get micro about this, but as you see some of the gains that were made this year, some of the investments in preschool that have been made over the last several years, the direct leadership of Dr. Adams in there, I think they're making some progress.

Next question.

QUESTION: (Inaudible)

NIXON: Yeah, I know, I know.

Anybody else? Over here, to you, then you.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) specifically, removal of military-style police, has that made you reconsider the use of this in Missouri police departments?

NIXON: I think you always do -- after things are done, you always do a hot wash later on and analyze, and I know the patrol through the academy and whatnot watches all this stuff and then tries to do better each time.

So I think we're learning a lot, but I don't want to be critical of anybody as to what they've done. I made the decision they made to give the order to the colonel, to shift the operational change here. And I think it made a very positive difference over the last 18 hours.

And my full expectation is that it will continue to pay for safety and security and the opportunity to get justice as quickly as possible.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) we've had a lot of questions. Let's take two more questions, two more questions, one for the governor maybe and one for captain Jackson.

Right here.

QUESTION: (Inaudible)

NIXON: We have parallel investigations going on. The Justice Department under Attorney General Holder is one of those. St. Louis County is doing a separate one. Those are two separate ones.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) bringing out those military vehicles --

NIXON: That's a local operational choice.

QUESTION: (Inaudible)

NIXON: You know, I think there are going to be some -- some bumps along this road to justice, OK?

I think there are going to be some moments of angst between now and the finish line of this process, and it's important that during that process, we not see a -- the energy, appropriate energy, amassed to cause outbursts, but instead to be used to make sure that justice is served. And that there's safety.

And so I think there's going to be a number of points along the way.

QUESTION: (Inaudible)

NIXON: I'm not privy to anything. Information was released.

QUESTION: (Inaudible).

NIXON: If -- well, I didn't mean to nuance it in that way. Information that I had not seen, that the captain has not seen, that none of these guys seen, came out, and like I said, the captain's already answered that question about that.

QUESTION: How deep do you see the problems (inaudible).

NIXON: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

QUESTION: Why do you think the information today came out about the supposed robbery and not (inaudible) --

NIXON: I don't know. I don't know. I don't -- I don't know.

QUESTION: Let's take one last question. We've got to wrap up.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) what do you see is the long-term solution?

NIXON: We're focused on the operational situation we're in now. I'm not unaware of longer-term problems, as I've said a number of times here.

QUESTION: (Inaudible).

NIXON: What?

QUESTION: (Inaudible).

NIXON: I have no idea, I have no idea.

QUESTION: (Inaudible)

NIXON: On Monday, I asked for a Department Investigation, Monday. On Tuesday, I appeared in the community. On Wednesday, I appeared in the community. Thursday, I appeared in the community. On Friday, I'm here.

So whatever folks are saying out there, I mean, very quickly --

QUESTION: (Inaudible). He did feel, the manner of it was very, very sarcastic. It was not responsible. We don't need people like that in charge, not just one people of one race but for all people.

A lot of people out here, we're parents, we have children and families that we love. And if we cannot trust our police officers, who can we trust? Who can we trust?

We should have to have the police, that we're going to be treated equally , fairly. If you took the oath, you should be sworn to protect and serve all people, of all races. The way that the mayor and the way -- what is going to --

NIXON: Two things real quickly. I think you saw -- you continue to see patrol, the order I gave to colonel, this community -- Captain Jackson is going to be here, all the way in your community.

You can be well assured we're communicating back and forth. I think he's a little better trained than me. I think he's got more skills to deal with the challenges that are here than I do on the ground. I have full confidence he and the patrol are going to do a good job.

I will ask, as this process goes forward we're trying to make sure there's an open way that folks can express their energy, express their concerns, while protecting the property and getting this process to its necessary conclusion in a timely and complete fashion. I would ask everyone to follow the lead of the captain and do the best you can to respect the people.

Captain, is there anything you'd like to add?

CAPTAIN RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: To your concern, Sunday night, the governor was involved Sunday night, Monday. There are a lot of things that went on behind the scenes. He's been here. He's been in conversation. So he has been here.

One thing I will say about the governor, he's saying this isn't about him. This is about each of you. And so he's definitely been here all week. He came yesterday. He came today.

And we've had other instances in our state. I can't remember a time we've had a governor for five days be involved and show up and be here. And he's been here every day.

When my phone rings and I'm talking to the colonel or talking to the governor, that doesn't happen every night. And so -- he is --

QUESTION: (Inaudible).

JOHNSON: I have been talking about after this is over, there have been bigger things after this is over to make us all better. They need to continue to happen, and training, diversity, having more minority officers in our communities.

It need to be reflective, more women on our police departments. All of that needs to happen. The only way it will happen is if you demand it and we listen and make it happen.

QUESTION: Can't be and governor --

JOHNSON: Last question. I'll be down there later tonight.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) areas to protect their safety(inaudible) --

JOHNSON: The area last night where the protesters were, we've got -- there's port-o-potties down there. There's barriers down there. That's where the -- we'll be there. We'll make sure they can be along that street and stay as long as they want.

QUESTION: (Inaudible)

JOHNSON: Coming back where?

QUESTION: (Inaudible).

JOHNSON: What time do you want me to come back?

QUESTION: (Inaudible) all of the traffic preventing them from going down to protest peacefully, they were redirecting them to my street.

So why was there strong presence police protection other than the areas where they were redirecting the traffic?

JOHNSON: Where was that at?

QUESTION: (Inaudible) right on north. My husband and I have been unable to come home except last night when they took out the military- style riot gear.

I'm unable to (inaudible) peacefully at my neighborhood without riot gear police coming in with their intimidation tactics. Causing fear, people in McDonald's, and they're still not bringing trust back to the community. They are protecting themselves.

JOHNSON: Was that occurring last night?

QUESTION: Last night it was peaceful. Once all of the stuff changed --

JOHNSON: It's a new day. It's done changed.

QUESTION: (Inaudible). Wait a minute, my question is, those were still police officers. Someone gave them orders. Someone gave them direction.

So it may be a new day, but I still have to live through hearing this while they pull the media and helicopters away and all of a sudden, the next morning, I hear about someone being shot. How can I feel comfortable and safe?

It's a new day now for you all. Once it's over, what's going to happen for us who hear the news reports are still reporting looting and riots and the people protesting?

How is it going to be a new day for me when they're still saying all over the country, my relative, are you OK, are they still looting? Are they still looting? Everything the reporters put out has to do with (INAUDIBLE), has to do with the looting, has to do with the rioting, has to do with everything but the case. Civil rights have been violated.

JOHNSON: Can I say something?

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE). JOHNSON: Can I say something? And after this is over, I'll be here with you. But I want the media to listen to what she said because I tell you, my phone's ringing and saying the same thing that she's saying, show the city for what it is. Show what you saw last night. Show what you saw --

QUESTION: None of the peaceful protests -

JOHNSON: Yes.

QUESTION: Yesterday on the news, none of it was (INAUDIBLE).

JOHNSON: She's talking to you. Let's do it. All right. I've got to go. I'll see you guys tonight down at the Quik Trip.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: And what started as a press conference effectively turning into a public venting and perhaps the headline not so much in any facts being released about the investigation, but the clear evidence that there is still a strained relationship between authorities and the public, at least in this community of Ferguson, although, and this is a big although, this was a concerted effort to put forth from the governor on down to the person on your screen, Captain Ron Johnson, who's now the de facto leader of the security situation in that community, that it is a combined effort to not only fix the situation now, which effectively, if you've been watching CNN's live coverage all night and all through the morning, was a far better last 24 hours than the prior five.

And going ahead in the future, so many of those people asking the same question over and over again, what about my security situation for my family as we move forward? That's obviously a big, big issue for not only Captain Johnson, as he marches with people, he said it, not one arrest, not one roadblock. It was, quote, "a good night." There was much better communication. So clearly it is working so far. This change in dynamic.

But then also, again, he has promised to continue his effort to comb back into the community. He says he's going to speak with the chief of Ferguson Police, Thomas Johnson, later on today to get a briefing.

What was very interesting though in this, and I have to say, was that he said he had not seen the video. The video that was released this morning. And I think I said Tom Johnson. I beg your pardon. The chief of police is Thomas Jackson. Thomas Jackson. I beg your pardon.

Clearly, what was critical here is that the captain did not say he'd seen the video that was released this morning. And this is a big headline.

I want to bring in two of my guests who have been watching these developments very, very closely. Don Lemon is live on the scene right now. He listened through that press conference.

Don, what I think is so critical is that we've had so many developments this morning from the investigative and from the security angle. This morning from the investigative, we heard the name of the officer and we also saw video of an alleged violent robbery, an assault robbery, a strong-arm robbery, they call it, of the deceased, the 18-year-old Mike Brown, prior to the shooting. And then we saw this community response to the policing tactics. Has the dynamic on the ground changed? Has the calculus changed at all? Has the information made any difference?

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It has made a difference. And we're standing right out here at this QT. There is the QT right there, the one that was burned down. You can see it not far from Canfield Drive where Michael Brown lost his life. So these people, all of these people, and there were many more listening to Ron Johnson as he was holding a press conference, really listening intently. And I do have to say, if anyone has the ear of this community, man, it is -- it is him. He -- people here really respond to him.

And there are many people here who are upset, especially about the timing of the release of this information. They think that something is fishy about it. They're thinking that the police in some way are trying to make this young man out to be a character that he is not. And so they're upset by that. But they're glad at least at the information about the officer is coming out, but their -- they believe that he - that the - that police are trying to discredit Michael Brown. And they don't think that what happened in that convenience store - and, again, I'm just saying what people out here are saying, they don't believe what happened in the convenience store, if it did happen, if that is indeed Michael Brown, that it has anything to do with the confrontation that he had with police in the middle of the street, in front of the apartment complex. They see those as two really separate events. Much as people saw the Trayvon Martin case as two separate events as to what happened at the convenience store when George Zimmerman followed him and then those 90 seconds that we heard so much about during Trayvon Martin trial -- during the George Zimmerman's trial, where the case of the - the case really focused on that. That's how they're seeing it here.

It's making people a little bit more upset here and I think the concern is, you know, as you heard Mr. Johnson say, the concern is violence. And they are pressing for peace here, even in light of this new information, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: OK, Don, stand by on the ground live in Ferguson. Don Lemon's been reporting throughout all of this.

I've got some of the finest legal minds that can weigh in on these very fast developing, you know, facts that have come out of Ferguson. Joining me now, Mark O'Mara, Mark Geragos, Joey Jackson and Jean Casarez here on the set live with me.

Mark Geragos, first to you. What Don Lemon just reported that these, according to the community, are separate incidents. The robbery and the video that was released earlier this morning, the incident reports that were released earlier this morning, and then ultimately the confrontation and shooting of Mike Brown, separate, shouldn't be considered part of the same thing, and yet how can they not be? You've read through the report. MARK GERAGOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they're clearly related. And I

do agree with the community who thinks it looks fishy because they purposely released the officer's name the same day they released this stuff. They're hoping, from a public relations standpoint, that you're going to trump that by doing a little character assassination first.

BANFIELD: Is that deflection or is that context?

GERAGOS: That's deflection.

BANFIELD: Releasing those two things together?

GERAGOS: Right. Right. They waited. They had this, as you know. If you read the reports, they had the tape as early as the following day and claimed they couldn't open it because their computer system didn't work. So part of the Keystone Cops nature of this whole investigation.

BANFIELD: Joey Jackson, I'd like you to weigh in on that.

JOEY JACKSON, HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Sure. You know, Ashleigh, I get the fact that they're talking about what happened at a convenience store. You could argue that it has something to do with what occurred. But here's the point. That might lead the police to have probable cause to stop. But it certainly does not lead to justification to kill. And so say, for example, that that is him there, how do we leap from that incident to an actual shooting in the street? And then even in identifying, Ashleigh, the actual shooting there, does what happened at the police car, apparently based upon what witnesses are telling to this point, and then you have someone who's going away, which is Michael Brown, and his hands up clearly surrendering. And so he's shot at that point, according to witness accounts. And so, therefore, there's still a lot of explaining to do with regard to the use of deadly force in this case. Was it necessary or not?

GERAGOS: Oh, let me - let me -- Joey, you know what they're going to say? I can tell you right now. The cops are going to say, and the law enforcement's going to say, look, he just got finished pushing somebody in the convenience store. This supports the idea that when he was at that car and they were trying to apprehend him that he pushed the officer. At that point, that was the -that gives them the same narrative. That is going to be exactly what the prosecution's going to argue.

BANFIELD: Well, and let's not forget, the description that came over the APB was effectively a strong-armed robbery.

Quickly, Jean Casarez, give me the legal definition in Missouri -

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BANFIELD: When you're a police officer in a cruiser and you hear - you're looking for two suspects with the description - clear description and there's a strong arm robbery, what are they thinking?

CASAREZ: Well, they're thinking that there's violence that has just taken place, a robbery, a violent robbery, and that someone is on the loose. And this case is going to boil down to the state of mind. The state of mind of the officer and also the state of mind of the descendant. Very important. And that's why the convenience store is important because states of mind were formed --

BANFIELD: It started there.

CASAREZ: It started there.

GERAGOS: And the -

BANFIELD: Mark O'Mara -- just quickly, I want to get Mark O'Mara in on this because there's a lot to talk about and this is just - this is a big part of it. But another huge part was the fact that finally, on day six, the request was granted. The release of the name of the officer. It's Darren Wilson. I want, from your perspective, just quickly as we wait for the governor to speak with us live, how is his life different now than it was an hour or two ago before his name was released publicly?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the officer's now going to be the focus of the anger of the community. It may be unfortunate for him, but he's now in the middle of a situation because of the actions he took on the street. And he's going to have to deal with that. Hopefully the police will, of course, protect him.

I said for the first few days keeping it private was OK, or secret. It is about time. And I'm glad it was finally released.

I got to say, this was unnecessary deflection in releasing the information about the convenience store. But the reason why they may have done it was because, when you have a felony, and therefore a fleeing felon, that gives law enforcement an additional right to pursue and to act with a certain amount of force. But that smoke, the reality is that officers should not have shot unless he himself was in fear of imminent great bodily injury.

BANFIELD: So much of this is going to come down to the forensics of the moment.

I want to go right away live to the scene in Ferguson where my colleague, Jake Tapper, has been able to wrangle Governor Jay Nixon post ad hock press conference/community town hall.

Jake.

JAKE TAPPER, ANCHOR, CNN's "THE LEAD": Thank you so much, Ashleigh.

We're here in Ferguson with the governor of the state, Democratic Jay Nixon, and also, of course, Captain Ron Johnson of the Missouri State Highway Patrol, who's taken over security in Ferguson.

I want to start with you, governor. A lot of angry members of the community, angry about things having to do with beyond -- far beyond this one incident and the protests and the militarized response of the police. NIXON: I think there are two things. Obviously, you've touched an old

wound here when you deal with issues like this. And we recognize that. We also recognize that we want to keep the community safe while allowing those voices to be heard. And I think that Captain Johnson, a chief (ph) from the Missouri Highway Patrol, did an outstanding job last night of clearly changing the tone, making it safer, but allowing those voices, which are appropriate in this situation, to be heard.

TAPPER: Captain Johnson, a lot of people in the community right now think that the release of this videotape, this closed circuit television from the convenience store, where Mike Brown, the late Mike Brown, allegedly participated in a strong-armed robbery. I know you haven't seen the video, but a lot of people in the community think there's something fishy about this. That they're trying to besmirch his reputation in the court of public opinion. And they note that it happened at the same time that the officer's name was released. Do you understand why members of the community view the release of this information suspiciously?

JOHNSON: I do. And I'm going to try to get a clear understanding on why that was released in that way. But I can't answer that right now. But when I leave here, I am going to meet with the chief and try to get a clearer understanding of the dynamics of how that occurred.

TAPPER: What is protocol for police if there are suspects wanted in a strong-armed robbery?

JOHNSON: And I can't speak to the protocol that the Ferguson PD have in place.

TAPPER: OK.

Governor Nixon, I'm sure it's no surprise to you that a lot of members of the African-American community are not your biggest fans. It goes back, as far back as I can tell, to '92 when you campaigned against desegregation in this state. Do you think that you have work to do when it comes to talking and conveying your appreciation of their frustrations with the African-American community in this state?

NIXON: Well, we've all got work to do as a society. It's not just about me or any - I mean, as a society, as we see from this. There are protests going on all around the country, all around the world from what's happened here in Ferguson. This is a large chasm that needs to be joined. And I prefer not to personalize it. I've got a lot of great friends in these areas (ph). We made a lot of progress. I, quite frankly, think that the operational changes that I ordered yesterday had a big effect last night at getting both safety and peace and we're going to continue to work to make sure that stays the same.

TAPPER: There is a huge amount of criticism of how militarized police in this country have become post-9/11. I believe Missouri, in the last few years, has received $17 million worth of military goods, including mine-resistant trucks. I don't know if you have them on the state highway patrol, but do you see a need for this kind of equipment?

JOHNSON: I don't know about the mine-resistant trucks. I do know that there are times when we have to use our armored vehicles with our SWAT teams to preserve lives. So there are times where that is appropriate. But I think there's times when it's not appropriate.

NIXON: I mean if you've got an active shooter and you've got to get there, folks have got to be there safe. If you've got a bomb threat, you have to be able to meet that threat. Clearly, you know, in this situation, the captain has presented a much different front. I think that front's very positive. But like I say, we'll review what assets are. We're concerned about all these matters. We want to make sure there's trust with the police department.

TAPPER: But, still, Buchanan County has a mine-resistant truck. You have a lot of mines in Buchanan County?

NIXON: I mean, like I said, I don't - I'm not going to say other than, I mean, when there are significant disasters, oftentimes at the larger levels they ask for mutually aid and cooperation. Like I said, we'll have a good discussion about that long run. We'd like to get to the end of the line on justice here. We'd like to get these things completed. But we want a peaceful night tonight where people can speak and their property is going to be protected.

TAPPER: I came here a few days after I was in the Palestinian territories in Israel. And I brought the same bag with a gas mask and a helmet and Kevlar because of the scenes I saw on the street and because of the rubber bullet wounds I saw of innocent people that were protesting peacefully. Does that embarrass you, the scenes that were on the television?

NIXON: I mean we all saw the scenes and they looked like a war scene. And that's one of the reasons why, as we saw that escalation, I made the strategic and kind of relatively unique decision to move the way I did, to shift the control, the security on the ground here to the highway patrol and the colonel assigned a great local leader here to lead that. I saw what everybody else saw and I didn't like it. And we don't want to see it again. And our hope - but that's a two-way street. That's not just - that's not just the folks from law enforcement. That's the folks in the community. So this officer is working with his team to make sure that those bonds are such that those options aren't even on anybody's table.

TAPPER: Captain Johnson, are African-Americans treated fairly in this state by the police?

JOHNSON: I believe our citizens are treated fairly. But I also believe that we don't live in a perfect state. You know, we could be here and there could be citizens from other races could say, you know, I haven't been treated fairly. But any individuals that have not been treated fairly is an issue. And so it's not our intent that means anything, it's our - it's our - it's our actions and the outcome. And so I think that we have a great state, but I do think some people have had that feeling that they've been done wrong and something's gone wrong. We need to fix that. And we need to make sure everybody has that understanding that trains so we're treating everybody correctly.

TAPPER: Are African-Americans treated fairly by police?