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Crowds Ralling in the Wake of Michael Brown's Death; President Leaving Martha's Vineyard Late Tonight; Police Response to Ferguson Protests; Battle Rages for Mosul Dam; Interview with Reverend Markel Hutchins

Aired August 17, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow.

We begin, of course, in Ferguson, Missouri this evening. Right now, crowds are rallying in the wake of the death Michael Brown, an unarmed teen killed by police officer. Voices are raised in song, Michael Brown's parents are there, his teachers are there, community members that gathered. The Reverend Jesse Jackson is also there inside this Ferguson church. It is standing room only. There is also a line outside of people not able to get in.

The uplifting songs stand in sharp contrast to last night's protests. Gunfire and seven arrests on the streets was what we saw last night. Police say a protester is in critical condition at this hour after being shot in the chest, but it is not known at this point who shot that protester.

Here is what is next in Ferguson. The curfew returns at midnight, central time. The justice department says that officials will be conducting military officials a second autopsy on Michael Brown's body. We do not have a reporters on the ground there at this point. We are going to get back to him as soon as we do. We will get back to you there on the ground to out Ed Lavandera who is on the ground there.

Meantime, the unrest protest and tension are on the Obama administration's radar as well. They have been fully briefed on the situation in Ferguson today. The justice department ordered another autopsy, as I said, to be conducted on the body of Michael Brown. This one will be done by a federal medical examiner, likely a military medical examiner. That is what we're told. That is at the request of Michael Brown's family. This still will not replace the state autopsy.

Our senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta traveling with the president, he is in Martha's Vineyard right now.

So first, Jim, to you, how closely is the president following the situation in Ferguson right now?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, he is on vacation, but the administration officials do tell us that the president is staying on top of the situation. He has been staying on top of it. Ever since, it began unfolding about a week ago.

We have been told that the president was briefed earlier this morning on the situation in Ferguson by his senior advisor Valerie Jarrett. She has been sort of a point person on this crisis over the last several days. She has been in touch with civil rights leaders on the ground in that community, and also talking with the NAACP president, Cornell Brooks, and talking to the Reverend Al Sharpton. And so, she's been keeping the president up to speed on those developments.

But rest assured, Poppy, I think the president is going to be more involved -- the White House will be more involved in the situation in Ferguson over the coming days. He is going to be briefed, the situation, once again by attorney general Eric Holder, when he gets to the White House tomorrow.

The president is leaving Martha's Vineyard late tonight, a late night player on 10:00 tonight. He arrives back at the White House around 11:30 later on this evening. And he's going to be back at the White House for the next couple days before returning to Martha's Vineyard on Tuesday night, Poppy.

HARLOW: Right. And in terms of those meetings, I know he's going to have a full, full day tomorrow. We know he is going to be briefed by Eric Holder, the attorney general on the latest in the situation in Ferguson. What other meeting does he going to have?

ACOSTA: He is also going to be meeting with the national security council on the situation in Iraq. As you know, over the weekend there were those air strikes on these ISIS targets to help Iraqi security forces retake the Mosul dam.

The president send a war power letter, what they call a war powers letter to the speaker John Boehner and members of Congress just today, notifying them, giving that legal notification of those air strikes that occurred over the weekend. And in that notification, Poppy, it says basically what the administration's explanation is for these air strikes and this is not an expansion of the mission that the president authorized in Iraq. That it's really in keeping with the mission. They are saying, they are argument is that those air strikes to help recapture the Mosul dam, protected U.S. personnel in Baghdad, the belief being that had that dam broken, that it could have swept in to Baghdad and put U.S. personnel and perhaps U.S. embassy in Baghdad at the at risk.

And so, the president will be keeping up to speed on that situation as well. And in addition to meeting with vice president Biden. So definitely a big interruption on the president's vacation schedule. He's going to have a lot on his agenda, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely. And we just saw, you sent to all of us that memo coming from the White House in the last ten minutes or so, trying to make it very clear. Look, these still not an expansion of our mission. We doing this to protect the people on the ground. We will talk a lot more about that throughout the show.

Appreciate the reporting from Martha's Vineyard. Jim Acosta for us. Let's go now, we do have Ed Lavandera who is on the ground in

Ferguson.

So Ed, I know -- I believe you are outside, right? And those lines behind you, these are all people that could not even get inside that rally for Michael Brown. What is your sense you are getting on the ground there?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, it's been a staggering turnout for this unity rally. There's only about 1300 seats in the sanctuary of this church, just a few miles away from where Michael Brown was killed last weekend. But look at the scene behind me. People have still continues to flock and this event continues on.

And Fredricka, I would say there's probably close to 2,000 people here in the parking lot. There's a local radio station that's started to pump out audio from inside the sanctuary. So the crowds gathered around. The local radio stations farther, Poppy, sorry.

And so, it's just an unbelievable scene here as we have seen just people continue to flock here this afternoon. And inside the service it's been very emotional, very strong words, angry at times, several speakers talking about how Michael Brown was quote "executed."

But the service started off with captain Ron Johnson who for many people has been seen as a savior in the last few days. He is the state highway police captain who is put in charge of security. And for many of the residents in Ferguson, he's been kind of a breath of fresh air here on the streets.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: Because when this is over, I'm going to go into my son's room, my black son, who wear this pants sagging, wear his (INAUDIBLE), got tattoos on his arms, but that's my baby.

And well all ought to be thanking the Browns for Michael, because Michael is going to make it better for our sons, so they can be better black men. So (INAUDIBLE) better for our daughters, so they can be better black women. Better for me so I can be a better black father.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: And Poppy, you could hear that Captain Johnson basically setting the tone for the intensity of this unity and the speaker who have been speaking out here this afternoon.

Michael Brown's parents are there, but they are not speaking. But they did say through their attorneys who spoke briefly that they thanked everyone for their support, and obviously urged people to continue protesting peacefully. And that is something that is very much on the minds of many of the people here that I have spoken with here this afternoon. As we've seen repeatedly the last week, occasions where the protests

have turned violent and defiant and become dangerous in many ways. The people here very cognizant of how many people around the world and around the country are watching. And they hope that the images from today are what stands out and kind of overshadows the violence and the danger that they have seen in the overnight hours.

HARLOW: Because I do know, Ed, that we did hear Ron Johnson say that he was disappointed what happened last night. A lot of people were peaceful, but there were seven arrests. There was one American shot, it's not known by whom. They did have to use some tear gas, for example, so we will certainly see what, you know, transpires tonight. What are people telling you on the ground there, Ed, about whether they think this curfew is a good idea?

LAVANDERA: You know, there are a lot of people who did not like the idea of this curfew. And it will continue, but what was interesting last night as the curfew time was approaching midnight, there were a lot of people who voluntary started leaving the scene early. It was almost kind of -- it seems like in a way of making it easier for the police and the security forces there to do their job -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Ed, I appreciate the reporting on the ground there where you are. Thank you.

We are going to go right inside where Ed is standing. We are going to listen to Martin Luther King III speaking at this rally for Michael Brown.

MARTIN LUTHER KING III, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: As it relates to something called finality. I remember my father preaching a sermon one time about death. And he talked about his own funeral and I'm not going to talk about that today, but it just popped in my mind.

Because I was 10-year-old when my dad was gunned down. I was six, 12, 11 when my uncle mysteriously drowned. I was 15 when my grandmother was gunned down in the church by praying the Lord's prayer. So I -- while I don't understand losing the child, I understand losing a loved one. And all of us should understand losing a loved one.

The stage has been set. And today and forever people will be talking about Michael Brown. That is for sure. But what this community chooses to do. I mean, Rev. has already about jobs and opportunity. This is the time for America to create opportunities. In communities all across this county and this country, there is no shortage of resources. It's just a shortage, hit before, now maybe there was a shortage of a will.

You see, when we think about this thing and we think about victims, Victor Hugo used to say wherever this is darkness, crimes will occur, but the guilty one is not merely he who created the crime, but those who created the darkness.

I hope you understand that what I'm saying is that when we create a climate, when we create training and opportunity jobs for people across America, much of what we see will go away. That's only one things.

The second thing is our police departments need human relations, sensitivity and diversity training. When you understand how to interact, because every ethnic group is different, and every ethnic group has made a contribution to this nation.

Now, finally I want to say, just before I go to my seat, because I wanted to be here and will be back again and again, why? Because my dad used to say that our destinies are sort of tied together. I can't be what I ought to be and tell you what you ought to be. You can't be of what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be because our destinies truly are tied together.

More and more people will be coming to St. Louis. And the leadership here has encouraged, not just justice, but justice perhaps won't come unless there is an independent prosecutor.

This is not Martin King, this is what the community has said. And the current prosecutor as demonstrated bias. Therefore -- he should -- if he is fair and right. But that only happens when one of the things you do is sign a petition that's online that others will be talking about.

Because we, and as I say America is watching and the world, and as Rev, said, people are really embarrassed. Because we go all over the world promoting democracy and fairness, at least that's what we are saying, and yet we're not even creating democracy in our own communities. Because our own many, not all but some police departments, are not conducting themselves in the ways they could.

So let me rush to tell you, do not in any ways tire, why? Because we've come much too far from where we started. You see, no one ever told any of us that our roads would be easy. But I know our God, our God did not bring any of us this far to leave us.

Justice can and will come, but St. Louis County, Ferguson you must continue to stand and be heard. God bless you.

HARLOW: You were listening to MLK III speaking there, what has now been a lengthy rally for Michael Brown in the wake of his death one week ago. We are going to continue tracking that as you saw the Reverend Al Sharpton just taking the podium there. We will continue to track that.

Quick break here. But coming up next in the NEWSROOM, a question that many are asking, what will it take to stop incidents like the one in Ferguson, Missouri? One of our experts weighs in on that. And also, the fight to retake a very critical dam in Iraq from ISIS militants.

We are going to take a very close look at the U.S. plan to try to contain this terror group. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: So how can peace return to the tense streets of Ferguson, Missouri? People are still very angry after an unarmed teenager, Michael Brown, was shot and killed by a police officer a week ago. Police in riot gear faced angry protesters last night. Congressman John Lewis, who endured a police beating when he marched with Martin Luther King Junior more than 50 years ago says what is happening in Ferguson is a disgrace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: We have to get police officers, local elected officials to respect the dignity and worth of every human being. It's a shame and a disgrace that in a city that's almost 70 percent African-American to have only three African-American police officers.

Ferguson, it's not in the American south, but we're doing much better in the small towns and cities in Georgia and Alabama and Mississippi. It's shameful. This is a disgrace. We must teach people the way of peace, the way of love, the way of nonviolence, but we cannot have peace and order without justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: I want to bring if retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Russel Honore. You will remember him well because he helped restore order in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. Thank you for being with us, sir. We appreciate it.

LT. RUSSEL HONORE, (RET.) U.S. ARMY: Good evening.

HARLOW: What do you make of the congressman's comments? Does he have a point?

HONORE: Well, I think he's talking about some enduring things that are challenges in communities around the country, which speaks to the point of how will we work our way out of this crisis, which speaks to a need for a strategic message coming from the state and the federal government to how we get back to normal and what it's going to take to do that and what could be some defining things, poppy, like the government, community organized memorial service, then a time line by the state and federal government to have some pronouncements on initial findings. But at some point in time, how do you get back to normal? And they're going to have to clean that up in some type of all of government strategic message. They certainly can't live it on the back of the police captain, the commander on the ground, to create all of that. All of government now needs to step up.

HARLOW: You know, when you talk about this curfews that went in place, you have some really important points that you think are critical to making it work. Because what we saw last night, captain Ron Johnson said he was disappointed. We saw seven arrests, saw some teargas that officers used. What needs to be clarified to try to make this curfew work?

HONORE: Yes. Community, communication on local television, repetitive repeating what the purpose of the curfew. People have a right to assemble. Inside that the government has a responsibility by the constitution to maintain safe and security environment for everybody in the community. People and property. Here comes the rub -- when the government decides we're going to put a curfew in in order to enforce safety and security, people said we're not happy with the outcome, so then you can get into civil disobedience. We're going to not follow the curfews until we get something. And in this case the people continue to call for something that resembles, what is the justice plan?

And I think a part of the strategic communications is the government beyond captain Ron Johnson, he's doing a great job, must figure out what is that promise here so people can move on. People have not heard something that inspired them to move on. This thing is still fresh and I think they're going to have to continue to communicate that this is about safety and security, and it's not punishment.

A curfew cannot be looked at as punishment. It has to be emphasized this is for the safety and security of the community at some point in time the kids have to go back to school, they have a transition out of this, and the politicians are going to have to figure that out, Poppy.

HARLOW: And many of them are going to school as early as starting tomorrow. When you hear from the Brown family through their lawyers, have said they want people to follow this curfew, that is their hope that there would be peace and calm on the streets. When you talk about someone else coming in to try to help with that outside of the local police there, outside of captain Ron Johnson, who could that be, in your opinion?

HONORE: Cut, dropped. We dropped.

HARLOW: It sounds like he can't hear me anymore. The perspective from General Honore is very helpful for us to hear. And w appreciate him joining us. Hopefully, we can get him back for you.

We're going to take a quick break here and we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. Joining us now again, Lieutenant General Russel Honore. Thank you for joining us. I'm sorry about the technical difficulty there before the break. But I'm glad you can hear me now, sir.

The question I was asking before we went to break is this. You suggested someone else perhaps should come on the ground to help the situation there. From your experience, who would be the best person to do that?

HONORE: I think somebody designated by the governor or senior elected official who can work with the captain and work on communicating and going through the community and getting people's concerns and pulling that together in a strategic communications message that describes to the people that this thing -- that justice will be done in a courtroom. And the political issues in the community will be solved in the ballot box.

For the time being we've got to address the concerns of people. If you look at this curfew tonight, the people continue to push back on the armored vehicles, yet each night there's a problem the armored vehicles show up. Why are they doing that? So they're still doing things that they don't have to do that incite the people, but they still can control the crowds.

There's just some things to get on message with and be consistent in order to build confidence with the people. And then deal what is that big event that will recognize this young man, a community event. When the business community is going to step up. If there's another service there should be telethon (ph) outside so people can see. There should be a city event that goes all the way into St. Louis, people would means that can help put this and help this family heal and move on toward justice.

HARLOW: That's a really interesting idea. You know, and when you do, as you brought up these armored vehicles, this is riot gear, some of these weapons that is we used in war brought onto the streets of Ferguson, we saw some again last night, isn't a lot of this about the perception and how you approach people? What you're wearing, what you're holding? What do you think would be most effective?

HONORE: Well, I've had this experience with this in South Korea with demonstration of over 100,000 people. And the techniques -- (INAUDIBLE) said are used by the South Korea services. Upfront they have policemen with shields, then there's a second line of policemen with shields. Then there's a third line of policemen with shields. You don't see any guns. When you're doing a civil -- or disobedience control, there are no guns up front.

It appeared that we -- our solution -- and our doctrine inside our police department is that you move the guns up. If you're leading with a SWAT team, controlling a civil disobedience, you're in trouble. You've got -- you've got an attack mechanism up front when you should be having a control mechanism upfront and be able to -- be able to control the crowd without pointing guns at them.

HARLOW: We appreciate you joining us, Lieutenant General Russel Honore. Glad we could have you on the program tonight. Thank you for being with us.

HONORE: Good day.

HARLOW: We're going to continue this conversation with two of our political commentators. Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson are going to join us right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. We continue to follow the unfolding situation in Ferguson, Missouri, that has brought the conversation about race relations in America right to the fore.

CNN commentator Ben Ferguson, also Marc Lamont Hill, join me now know.

Thank you both for being here. Ben is in Dallas, Marc is in Ferguson, Missouri. And before I begin, I want you both to listen to remarks from a guest that I spoke with here on the program last night. He says this incident has been blown out of proportion. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN JACKSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE BLACK SPHERE LLC: America is not the racist enclave that everybody says that it is, that the cops are not targeting black people, neither are white folks. I asked you a second ago, I said, why don't you give diversity training to the people going to the football game?

We meld every single day. We meld at restaurants. We meld at schools. We meld as a nation, as part of the mosaic every day in multiple ways. Just as the police help people every single day, but we take a situation like this, we blow it out of proportion, because that's what happened, we want to set the narrative that one side is good, the other side is bad, and that is what's bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Marc Lamont Hill, you're in Ferguson, you just left the rally there, along with the family of Michael Brown and many others, Is this situation being blown out of proportion?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely not. You know, the energy here in Ferguson is very much reflective of what we see around the country, and that is black and brown people saying we have had enough.

This isn't about one isolated incident. This is about black bodies being vulnerable in public space every single day. And Michael Brown and Ferguson, the microcosm of a broader problem we see in America, and that's why you see this reaction. The fact that police haven't been transparent. The fact that they've been antagonizing the crowd -- I was out here last night and had teargas shot at me.

So there's absolutely no way we could see this as anything other than a crisis that warrants this level of attention.

HARLOW: You had teargas shot at you for what?

HILL: We were out here -- we were out here beyond midnight, peaceful protesting, though. There was absolutely no violence at this moment, there was no antagonism. We were peacefully protesting, saying hands up, don't shoot. The crowd was out there. Police moved forward in their vehicles, military-style vehicles, and -- although they said teargas wasn't going to be shot, teargas was shot, we ran. Another kid was shot, not by police, but I'm saying that's the level of confusion that came after the teargas was fired. It was a very, very ugly place.

HARLOW: Ben, to you, I guess, had you and our viewers listen to Kevin Jackson. Also said to me last night in our conversation that, look, diversity training is not what is needed here. That is frankly not the solution. Having faith leaders go out and try to work the community, not the solution. What is your take? What is the solution? BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, Marc just

brought up a huge point. I would challenge Marc and others to obey what they're trying to do to try to restore order, which is if you want to cause problems, if you want this to continue to spiral out of control, stay out past midnight and don't respect the authorities.

The African-Americans have been put in charge of the situation, to regain the trust, yet you're still not listening to them. And I think that's one of the issues here. Some of the people I think are wanting to have this excitement, wanting to have this rage, and wanting to have this continue on, when the governor I think did the right thing. He said here is a man that we're going to put in charge, an African- American man that can talk with the community, that can go out and try to get this to calm down a little bit, and to be peaceful.

Yet Marc acts like he's a victim when he's the one that broke the rule last night after midnight, and saying just because they're peaceful, that doesn't mean you don't -- you get to break the rules. So as long as we continue to have this I think we're going to have problems.

HARLOW: Marc? Marc?

HILL: Ben, it also -- it also doesn't mean that the -- it also doesn't mean that we should invite or that it should be warranting military-style response. Again, this is the whole problem with Michael Brown. The kid was jaywalking --

FERGUSON: But I think because you're antagonizing after midnight.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Let me finish the point. But being black in public space is an antagonism in and of itself. Michael Brown was just walking down the street and they're saying he's antagonizing police. We're peacefully protesting and they're shooting teargas and ultimately firing weapons.

Martin Luther King violated the law. Violated the law.

HARLOW: Police have said that they --

HILL: Sitting in was violating the laws. All of this stuff is a violation of the law but we always push back.

HARLOW: One second to be clear here. Let me say something, Ben. To be clear here, to Marc's point, police did say there that overnight no shot was fired by police overnight last night. I want to make that clear. And I want to ask you both, but I'll begin with you, Ben. I'll go to you, Marc.

FERGUSON: Correct.

HILL: Absolutely.

HARLOW: This is an important question. There's been a lot of talk about the 53-member police force in Ferguson that has three African- Americans on it. Is it important, do you think, Ben, to have more black police officers as part of that force?

FERGUSON: I don't have a problem with that. But my concern is this. Are we saying that we want segregation? Because that's the only way that it's going to be fair in minority communities? I mean, I thought we didn't want to have segregation saying that only African-American cops can police African-Americans, only white cops can police white Americans, only Hispanic cops can police Hispanic people.

HILL: That's not the point.

FERGUSON: I don't think -- let me finish. I don't think it's funny. But this is my point. They wanted to have --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: But I think a lot of this is funny.

FERGUSON: Let me finish.

HARLOW: Let Ben finish.

FERGUSON: Let me finish.

HARLOW: Please let Ben finish.

FERGUSON: Marc, many in the African-American communities, just like you're saying you want African-Americans in charge. You have an African-American that now is in charge, and you absolutely do not obey him by staying after midnight last night and then acting like you're a victim when teargas is shot.

My point is, if an African-American in charge, you won't listen to him, what difference does it make if it's a white cop? Because it sounds like you're not going to listen to him, either.

HARLOW: Marc, to you. Does that -- Marc, to you, does the police force there need to have more African-American members? Or is it not about what race you are as part of the police force? Is it about policing in a way and being -- having more communication is what we've heard is needed between the community members and the police?

HILL: Absolutely. And I apologize for interrupting Ben. There's a time delay. I would never interrupt my dear friend Ben Ferguson. But I think it's not either-or, I think it's both end. I think on the one hand, black people didn't march so that they could be beaten by black cops. We don't want to integrate a police force who are going to replicate the very same patterns of brutality and terrorism. I don't want that.

I want black cops who are well trained. I want white cops who are well-trained. It's entirely possible to have an all-white police force that can engage in community policing that doesn't violate people's rights and that respects the community. That is possible. But still in a town that's 70 percent black it's mind-boggling there are only three black police officers on the force. That's reflective of a broader structure of racism and I'll say white supremacy that we have to deal with not just in Ferguson but around the country. This is a broader international issue that we have to deal with.

FERGUSON: Sir?

HILL: Ferguson and Michael Brown speak for everybody.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Here's my thing. Do you want segregation in African- American communities? Are you saying that it needs to be definitely proportionate to the African-American population, which is segregation?

HILL: It's not about segregation, Ben. Having black people in a black town as police officers isn't segregation. It's reflective of the needs of community. White officers -- not traditionally, white officers often have been insensitive to the needs and the culture and the practices of black people. But again black officers often do the same thing. Putting a black person as a business manager for the same racist structure does not make black people feel better. We're not advocating for different police. We're advocating for better police.

HARLOW: You know what I think is clear? I want you to both stick around. We're going to talk more about this later on the show. We're also going to have you talk about the situation between the United States and Iraq right now. But what is important I think that you both agree, and everyone agrees on, is that there needs to be a lot more and a lot better communication between the police force there and the people on the ground there.

We'll be right back after a quick break. As I said we're going to talk about this as the U.S. conducts air strikes in an effort to retake a very strategic dam in Iraq. Is it going to be enough? How much is the situation going to escalate? How much is the U.S. going to get involved? Our experts weigh in, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Turning now to the crisis in Iraq, a fast and furious battle is raging right now for control of the Mosul dam.

U.S. forces conducted 14 air strikes against ISIS targets in addition to several yesterday as Kurdish forces on the ground are attempting to retake that dam. So far it seems like their mission is working. A spokesman for the Kurdish forces say they had taken over the eastern side of the dam. Not yet the other side, though. This fierce battle rages on the western side.

The challenge to retake this dam without damaging it is very daunting. If the dam is compromised cities from Mosul all the way down to Baghdad could be flooded.

Aside from this battle, ISIS -- the threat from ISIS is growing exponentially inside Iraq. Let's bring in some experts to talk about it and what the United States is doing right now. Doug Olivant is with us and also CNN national security analyst Bob Baer. Doug you served as director for -- for Iraq, really at the National

Security Council under both President Bush and under President Obama. So you know the president's thinking on this. And it was just over a week ago when President Obama said, I will not allow the United States to be dragged in to fighting another war in Iraq. Is that how you read this situation?

DOUGLAS OLIVANT, NEW AMERICA FOUNDATION: I don't think the United States is going to fight a war in Iraq, but it may well support someone else's fight. I think that's what we're seeing here. We have not only Kurdish forces but an Iraqi army brigade that are closing on the Mosul dam. We've seen over the past week so frankly neither of these forces have performed very well, both the Iraqi army and the Kurdish forces didn't fare well in the early fighting.

Now with U.S. airpower supporting them, taking out the major targets, that may allow them to move forward and secure the Mosul dam, which as you point out is not only a source of water and power, but also has the ability to be used as a weapon if it's destroyed.

HARLOW: You've also said, though, Doug, that you think the administration is finding loopholes to be able to fight ISIS like this, while still sticking to what they have said in the narrative, that this is to protect people on the ground.

OLIVANT: If we look at all the president's justifications, these are -- he says it's about protecting our soldiers and diplomats at our embassy in Baghdad and consulate in Irbil. That allows us to get around, you know, legal restrictions, about use of force in Iraq. It allows us to pretend, frankly, that this is not about the larger picture about containing ISIS.

I think what we're seeing is the administration wants to contain ISIS and not let it expand further until an Iraqi government is formed. Until then I think we're going to continue to see just these pin pricks on the periphery, Mosul, around Irbil, perhaps continue to protect the Yazidis. It's not until we see a government formed in Baghdad that I think we might be willing to take some more comprehensive steps.

HARLOW: Bob Baer, is the United States effectively combating ISIS right now? Or do you think that this is something that ISIS can last through and power beyond?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Poppy, I don't -- this isn't going to turn the tide against ISIS? This is a guerrilla force, can move very quickly. If they drive them away from the dam and they probably will. You'll see them pop up some place else. Toward Baghdad, for instance, or Syria, in fact.

This campaign is not going to be won from the air. You're going to need the people on the ground, the Iraqis, or the Syrians, to crush them and it's the only way it's going to work. And frankly, the U.S. getting too deeply involved in this will only help ISIS in the end because it will look like a war between Islam and the United States, which we don't want it to become. HARLOW: Well, that's very important point. And it begs the question,

you don't want the Sunnis to think that the United States is engaging in an anti-Sunni war. So how do you -- how do you best work with those on the ground to prevent that?

BAER: Well, Poppy, I mean, I could be upfront on this, I'm trying to help some Sunni tribal leaders get to the United States. We've been ignoring them for a couple years now. We hadn't had no confidence in them. But now they, themselves, are worried and they want to work with the United States and fight this battle and I think it's time we engage with them more and see if there is the possibility of a second awakening.

This may be fantastical, but they are offering -- they are handing out, you know, they are coming us to and asking for help and I think it's -- we should take a look at this. Again, we don't want American troops in there. And, you know, Obama right now is panicked about the situation there and they've called up Joint Special Operations Command, Delta Force and SEALs, and called back to duty for possibly going to Iraq. It depends how bad it gets.

HARLOW: To you, Doug, what do you think can be learned from the non- intervention, the air strikes that we didn't see happen in Syria when we knew that ISIS was a threat there? What can be learned? And also there have been some experts that have been saying, look, we actually need air strikes at the same time in some of these targets in Syria as well. Do you agree with that?

OLIVANT: Well, we're certainly caught on the horns of a dilemma here. We don't want to intervene in Iraq because it's Iraq and we don't want to intervene in Syria because the situation is so complicated in that three- or four-sided war, but I think we are going to end up being drag into it. I mean, we've not taken ISIS seriously enough.

There were early reporting, you can remember when Mosul fell, there were many who are saying well, this is just a -- this is a Sunni uprising against an authoritarian government in Baghdad. Well, then they attacked Irbil. So we can see that this isn't about a Sunni uprising. This is about a terrorist group that has very real goals to take over the entire region. Now whether they are capable of doing that is not clear but they sure had a good couple of months and I think the president is now taking them very seriously.

Now he doesn't want to go back to Iraq, but on the other hanged her doesn't want there to be a terrorist safe haven either and we are now in the place where there is a terrorist safe haven inside Iraq. What are you going to do?

HARLOW: What about Syria, before we wrap up quickly? Do you think that the U.S. should introduce limited air strikes in Syria?

OLIVANT: You cannot defeat ISIS if you don't engage them in depth, across Iraq and Syria and anywhere else that they go to. If you are not attacking them comprehensively, you're just allowing them to have sanctuary and giving them a place to retreat to.

HARLOW: Doug Olivant and Bob Baer, appreciate you both joining us. Thank you.

OLIVANT: Thank you very much, Poppy.

HARLOW: Still to come here in the NEWSROOM, a closer look at how to try to heal the pain in Ferguson.

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HARLOW: Welcome back. Another night of protests in Ferguson, Missouri. One person shot, seven people arrested. Police were out in force during a midnight to 5 a.m. curfew. They even fired some teargas into the crowd to try to reach that critically wounded gunshot victim. The shooter has not yet been caught.

So where do we go from here? What can we expect tonight when another curfew will be in effect?

Joining me to talk about all of this is civil and human rights activist, the Reverend Markel Hutchins.

Thank you for being with us, sir. Joining us from Atlanta. We appreciate it.

REV. MARKEL HUTCHINS, CIVIL AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Great to be with you.

HARLOW: How does the community here rebuild trust? What do they need? Because some people have been saying -- we just heard from Lieutenant General Russel Honore saying you need someone to come in from the government there and outside body to be there to help quell the tensions.

You don't think that that is the solution necessarily?

HUTCHINS: Well, I think it's a combination of things. I think local leadership is critically important in these kinds of situations. I do agree with General Honore in some sense that local leaders are oftentimes restricted by the relationship that they have within those communities. For example, I don't think under any circumstances, the local district attorney and the local police department can effectively investigate what happened to Michael Brown.

So I think it's a combination of local leadership and those from the outside, particularly from governmental entities, working with community leaders and police to figure out how to move forward in this situation.

HARLOW: What needs to be done most, from what you've been seeing on the ground unfold over the last week? What is needed most?

HUTCHINS: Well, I think one of the things that is critically important is people in that community have got to step up and take responsibility, really take leadership in the community itself. I think the police chief there in Ferguson really needs to begin to take more of a backseat. Had he done some very specific things in those early days, for example, had the police chief stepped forward and called for a meeting of community leaders, religious leaders, civic leaders at city hall with the mayor in the hours immediately following the shooting, had the police chief announce in these conversations that he was going to hire and retain a more diverse workforce, more closely resembles the racial demographics of a community, we probably would not have seen the kind of pandemonium and chaos that we are seeing now.

HARLOW: I want to talk about that because we just had Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson, our political commentators, on talking a lot about whether really it is the answer to have more representation on this police force that is African-American. Of course, two-thirds of the community is African-American there. You've got three members of a 53-member police force that are black.

But is that the solution, the color of their skin, or is it about something bigger?

HUTCHINS: I think it is a combination of things. First of all, Poppy, there is no one solution to this problem. I think what has exploded in Ferguson is kind of a powder keg. Over the last 60 days there have been four shootings of young African-American men across the country with law enforcement involved and all those young men were unarmed.

So I think what is exploding now is kind of a culmination of things and I think that's what is being felt right there in Ferguson. Seventy percent of the population African-American and yet, less than five of the 53 police officers are black or brown. Now that does not mean that if they hire and retain a more diverse workforce, there will be no problems, but certainly will bring a sense of forwardness and a sense of resolution to some of the racial imbalances currently felt in their community.

HARLOW: Let's hope that we see peace on the streets tonight when that curfew takes effect at midnight.

Reverend Markel Hutchins, thank you so much for coming in and for your insight.

HUTCHINS: Thank you. Good to be with you.

HARLOW: Good to hear from you.

All right. The next hour of NEWSROOM starts right now.