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Rally For Justice in Ferguson Ends; President Returns to Washington Tonight; Legal Insight on the Michael Brown Case; Kurdish Forces Gaining Control of Dam; Ebola Isolation Unit Attacked by Mob; Interview with Aisha Sultan; Three Autopsies Set for Ferguson Teen

Aired August 17, 2014 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Six p.m. here on the East Coast. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow. Thanks so much for being with me this evening. And, of course, we'll begin in Ferguson, Missouri.

Just a short time ago, an emotional rally for justice came to an end, the crowd gathered in the wake of the death of Michael Brown, an unarmed teen killed by police one week ago. Michael Brown's parents were there. You see them walking to the podium, they did not speak but they were. But their lawyer spoke on their behalf.

Also, teachers of Michael Brown were there, friends, community members, all inside of this church in Ferguson, which was standing room-only, long lines outside of people waiting to get in, the uplifting song stood in sharp contrast to last night's protests where gunfire erupted and there were seven arrests on the streets.

Police say a protester is in critical condition after being shot in the chest. It is not known though who shot him. The curfew in Ferguson does return tonight at midnight Central Time. And Justice Department official says a second autopsy will be performed on Michael Brown's body.

I want to bring in our Ed Lavandera. He's outside church where the rally took place in Ferguson.

What did you hear from all the people there on the ground as this was going on, Ed?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was an intentionally -- intensely passionate experience for many of the people who have sheep up here this afternoon. You know, the church sanctuary where this convenient took place, they only fit about 1,300 people or so, inside the lobby, everything completely packed and they probably close to 2,000 people who had to stand outside of the church here in the parking lot. You look around me. Much of the crowd is still here. These were people who at one point simply could only gather around a local radio station's speaker, they could try to hear what was going on inside.

And it was very strong and passionate words that were delivered inside. And in many ways, it really kind of captured the anger and frustration that has been boiling over here for a little more than a week now. Many of the speakers talking about how they felt that Michael Brown was simply executed by Ferguson police officer. Cries for justice continued.

Several speakers, civil rights leaders, prominent civil rights leaders attended at the rally here, community rally, but it was the words from the attorney for Michael Brown's parents that were some of the strongest and the most poignant.

Listen to what Benjamin Crump had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL BROWN'S FAMILY: Just know that this was their child and they loved their child. They had every right for their child to have due process of the law. What is true due process you say means? Due process is when I put my hands in the air, you don't execute me because you had a bad day. When I put my hands in the air, you don't decide to be judge, jury and executioner on that day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: And, Poppy, one of the things continue to hear over and over from people here, and they know full well that much of the country and the world is watching what is happening here on the streets of Ferguson and obviously, they are very concerned about the images and the tension that happens in the overnight hours and they are hoping they will hear from people here and tell us over and over again, is that they hope that these images, these events where people are coming together and protesting in this peaceful way will continue, hopefully it will spill over, and hope that these images and these messages overshadow the more confrontational and violent images that we have seen in the overnight hours. And that they hope that that's what will happen here in the days ahead -- Poppy.

HARLOW: And, you know, Ed, you heard such loud applause and praise for Captain Ron Johnson, when he spoke during that ceremony today. But at the same time, he's one of the officials that's calling for this curfew, for everyone to abide by it at midnight. Do the people that you're talking to on the ground there agree with him? Do they think it's a good idea?

LAVANDERA: You know, there were lot of people who are, you know, quite frankly very worried that the curfew would inflame passions once again. But, you know, what our reporters on the ground saw last night was that it was close to midnight and many of the people who were there protesting started leaving early so that they could clear the streets, make the jobs for the police officers much easier.

So, obviously, Ron Johnson, since he was put in charge of security here on Thursday by the governor of Missouri, in many ways, has kind of been seen as a savior. As he walks the street, he is continuously hugged. He received a standing ovation when he opened up the unity service here this afternoon. So, this is someone who has -- I don't know how well known he was before all of this happened, but he has become an extremely beloved figure in all of this very quickly.

HARLOW: Yes, he certainly has. It's really been fascinating to watch how much he has impacted that community. We will be watching and see what happens tonight, whatever happens, let's hope that it is peaceful.

Ed Lavandera, thank you.

Well, Missouri state patrol captain who Ed and I were just talking about, Ron Johnson, got a very -- he got very emotional when he spoke today that the service at the church in Ferguson. He says that violence during last night's protest really brought him to tears.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: Yesterday was a tough day. You now sometimes when you're trying to create change, you start having conflict with your friends. Yesterday was the day that I -- the first day that I cried.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Johnson also said today there when he took the podium that Michael Brown's death will not be in vain. He says when the controversy comes to an end and when more reasons are known here, he says that Brown will have made things better for Johnson's own son and other young black men in America.

President Obama will interrupt his vacation this evening. He will return later tonight to Washington. This is partly to learn more about the developments in Ferguson, Missouri, and partly to deal with other situation around the world.

Our senior White House correspondent, Jim Acosta, is traveling with the president in Martha's Vineyard.

So, first, Jim, let me ask you about this. We know that Attorney General Eric Holder is going to meet with the president tomorrow to discuss Ferguson, right?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right. That's right. That's one reason why the president's schedule over the next couple of days is going to be a lot busier than perhaps White House officials initially anticipated just a couple of days ago.

You know, the president has been keeping up to speed on the situation in Ferguson by receiving briefings from top officials, Eric Holder being one of them, giving briefings to the president, but also, the president was kept up to speed this morning on the situation in Ferguson by his senior adviser, Valerie Jarrett. She's been on the phones with civil rights leaders over the last several days, White House officials say she's been talking with the governor of Missouri, Jay Nixon.

And so, that's how the president has been keeping up to speed on all of this. He has obviously been on vacation. But, as you mentioned, Poppy, he is returning to Washington later on this evening, about 10:00 tonight, and over the next couple of days will be having meetings at the White House.

But, Poppy, I think one thing that we will be looking for is to see whether or not the president comes out once again and makes some sort of statement about the situation in Ferguson. As you recall late last week, he came out in front of the cameras, it was the second time in front of the cameras during this vacation and he called for peace and calm. And while it initially appeared that that might be the case and White House officials were telling us they were relieved to see things sort of get back to normal in Ferguson.

As you saw over the weekend, there was a violence that broke out in the overnight hours over this weekend, and so, we'll have to see whether or not the president comes out in front of the cameras again after his -- after his, you know, urging the country to return to some sort of calmness and peacefulness there in Ferguson, that those words really were not heeded over a lasting period of time, Poppy.

HARLOW: And also, the president is going to have some pretty important meetings on Iraq as well, right?

ACOSTA: That's right. He will be meeting with his National Security Council, according to officials tomorrow and just in the last several house, the White House released the letter from the president to congressional leaders about what is happening in Iraq, sort of a War Powers letter, as they call it -- really that's the legal notifying cakes the president is required to give Congress about military operations and they wanted to give Congress notification through this letter about what is taking place or took place over the weekend with respect to those air strikes and those ISIS targets around Mosul.

The Mosul dam that they were hoping that Iraqi security forces could retake, and appears in has indeed happened and administration officials are saying that the reason why that notification took place is they want to keep Congress up to speed and the reason why those air strikes took place, it was not an expansion of the president's authorization for military use of air power over there in Iraq, really, they say its nee keeping with that authorization, because have that damn broken, had it failed, they are saying that U.S. personnel in Baghdad, at the embassy, might have been at risk.

And so, we'll have to wait and see whether or not there is some sort of expansion of air strikes in the coming days, and just how they tie back those potential air strikes to the authorization that the president has issued so far, or whether or not we will see new actions from the president. He meets with his National Security Council, as we mentioned. He's also meeting with Vice President Biden as well, Poppy.

HARLOW: All right. We'll be looking forward to reports from there tomorrow as the president leaves vacation, goes back to the White House for some critical meetings tomorrow.

Thanks, Jim. We appreciate it.

More on our top story in just a moment. And this next after the break, when is the unrest in the streets of Ferguson going to come to an end? What's it going to take? Ben Ferguson and also Marc Lamont Hill, back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: More than a week now since a police officer in Ferguson, Missouri, shot an unarmed black teenager and killed him and there are still so many questions that people want anticipates to.

Our Susan Candiotti walks us through the series of events that led to Michael Brown's death.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dramatic surveillance photos taken inside a convenience store show a robbery in progress. It's about 10 minutes before Michael Brown is shot dead.

A police report describes a tall, heavy, up armed suspect picking up a box of cigars, then heading for the door. When a clerk tries to block him, the suspect grabs his shirt collar with his left hand, pushing him out of the way and walks out.

The store calls 911 reporting robbery.

Question, is this 18-year-old Michael Brown? Answer, police say yes. He appears to be wearing a white t-shirt, khaki shorts, flip flops and a red St. Louis baseball cap. The same clothes Brown was wearing when he was shot. The same red baseball cap is seen lying in the street.

Question, who was with brown in the store? Police say it's Dorian Johnson, standing behind Brown here and next to him at the door.

Dorian is not being charged in this case. He's brown's friend who saw the young man he calls "Big Mike" shot dead.

Johnson is a key witness in the shooting who's already been interviewed by investigators.

Ten minutes after leaving the store, Brown and his friend are confronted by a police officer in his cruiser about a quarter mile away.

Question, who it's officer? Six days after the shooting, we find out his name, Darren Wilson, wearing a badge for six years, a clean record.

CHIEF THOMAS JACKSON, FERGUSON, MISSOURI POLICE: He was a gentleman. He was a quiet officer. And he was -- he is -- he has been an excellent officer.

CANDIOTTI: But the biggest question, why did Officer Wilson shoot brown? The answer remains murky. Yet police now acknowledge when Wilson first stopped Brown and his friend, it had nothing to do with that cigar robbery. It was far less serious.

JACKSON: Because they were walking don't middle of the street, blocking traffic. That was it. DORIAN JOHNSON, BROWN'S FRIEND: And the officer says get the

(EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of the street, verbatim, was his words.

JACKSON: But now, this intriguing new detail, the police chief says when the officer drives by the teens, he may have spotted cigars in Brown's hands, making a possible link to the robbery minutes earlier.

JACKSON: And then as he passed them, you know, I guess that's when he might have seen the evidence and connected.

JOHNSON: At that time, he reached out the window with his left arm, he grabbed onto my friend, Big Mike's throat and he is trying to pull him in the vehicle.

JACKSON: What little police have said differs sharply.

CHIEF JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS CO. POLICE: One of those individuals at the time came into the -- as the officer was exiting his police car, allegedly pushed the police officer back into the car where he physically assaulted the police officer.

CANDIOTTI: Police say the two struggled over the officer's gun.

(on camera): But Mike Brown's friend says Brown was just trying to get away, not fighting for the gun.

JOHNSON: I looked at my friend, Big Mike, and I saw that he was struck in the chest or upper region, because I saw blood splattered down his side.

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Another witness is watching from a distance.

TIFFANY MITCHELL, WITNESS: The officer gets out of his vehicle and pursues Michael as he's shooting his weapon. Michael jerks his body as if he was hit.

JOHNSON: And at that time, he turned around with his hands up, beginning to tell the officer that he was unarmed, and to tell him to stop shooting.

MITCHELL: And the officer continues to shoot him until he goes down to the ground.

CANDIOTTI: Question, how many times was Brown shot? We don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't release anything from the coroner's report because I don't know.

CANDIOTTI: Question, how did Officer Wilson's face get swollen, and what's his explanation for shooting Brown? We don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't release anything about the interviews with the officers or any of the witnesses because I don't know. Yes. And I really don't want to know until this is done.

CANDIOTTI: And when will that be? We don't know that either. Susan Candiotti, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Our thanks to Susan Candiotti for her peace there. So a lot of certainly remain. We're going to take quick break on CNN.

When we get back, our legal panel joins us to discuss more on this top story. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

I want to get some legal insight now into the Michael Brown case. Joining here in New York, Danny Cevallos, he's a criminal defense attorney and CNN legal analyst.

Holly Hughes also joins us. She's a former prosecutor, now criminal defense attorney.

And thank you both for being here. I appreciate it.

When you look at this case, it is shaping up as a case of the officer's word versus the word of eyewitnesses.

So, do you, Danny, what we do know, a new development is that the FBI has interviewed new witnesses, witnesses that they say did not -- have not at this point talked to local officials.

Given what we know so far, do you think that that the community there, the officers there on the ground, that the prosecutors there have been too slow to bring charges or to make an arrest?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: All right, first, even though we have up to three eyewitnesses that support Mike Brown's story or I should say Michael Brown's friend story --

HARLOW: Dorian Johnson.

CEVALLOS: -- Dorian Johnson, I don't know that that long is going to be enough for an indictment. And when people talk about speed in this case, I'm a little surprised because candidly, those of us familiar with law enforcement and the justice system know things simply don't move as fast as you'd like.

And when it comes to getting documents, getting indictments, not every case is the same. You know, a DUI stop, a officer knows right away whether or not someone should be arrested. In a case like this, I don't think there's anything particularly unusual it's taking a little time.

HARLOW: You have three eyewitness accounts though.

CEVALLOS: Absolutely. HARLOW: At least. So, we don't know what those new witnesses told

the Department of Justice officials who spoke with them in the last 24 hours.

To you, Holly, do you think that this is moving at an appropriate pace?

HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It is. And the reason I feel that way, we have done two autopsies ant forensics, Poppy, is what's going to back up those eyewitness testimony stories. You don't want to go into court and have an officer say one thing and a citizen say something and it's going to be, who do you believe? You want to nail that case shut. You want those forensics saying are the entrance wounds in the front of the body or as some of the eyewitnesses are telling us, are they in the back of the body?

HARLOW: But one of the --

HUGHES: Was this somebody retreating at the time they were shot? We don't know.

HARLOW: Sorry to interrupt you. I apologize.

HUGHES: That's OK.

HARLOW: Hate it when people do that to me. I apologize.

But the question, though, I do wonder about that. We do know that this first autopsy has already been done by the county. We are awaiting a second and a third autopsy. So, aren't those rules already known?

HUGHES: What they're gong to do is they're going to compare all of them to make sure that they are the same and they don't want to violate the integrity of the investigation.

Danny's right. These things take time and no lawyer, whether you're a prosecutor or defense attorney wants to rush into court with a half- baked case. You want to know what you have.

HARLOW: I got to ask you, usually there isn't a second and third autopsy. I mean, the family is ask forward second to be done independently, the Department of Justice do one as well.

But in a typical case, you wouldn't necessarily have that, would it be them moving too fast once theft results of the county's autopsy?

CEVALLOS: No, what we are talking about, multiple autopsies are obviously the result of all this media attention. If there wasn't media attention, I promise you, there would be one autopsy and that would probably be it.

So, what's happening is the law enforcement is taking extra steps to make sure they have the case right. And again, I have to go back to this -- Holly, help me out here, anyone whoever tried to get discovery from law enforcement or from the prosecution knows -- and it's not necessarily their fault, they careful, they marshal their evidence, they wait until they have the evidence that he they want before they indict.

Now, sometimes, it's the defense attorney's position that they do so too quickly and maybe they have the wrong guy. But at the same time, there's nothing -- there's nothing per se wrong with the prosecution or the law enforcement in this case taking the time, circling their wagons and making sure they have the right facts.

HARLOW: Do you both, I'll start with you, Danny, then to you, Holly on this question, do you think that a special prosecutor should be appointed? There's been talk about that, given all of the global attention this is getting, should someone from the outside be coming in?

CEVALLOS: Sure. I mean, in a case like this, ideally, would you want someone independent to come in. I mean, it really depends on each and every case, also a question of resources. You can't always have when you have some allegation of impropriety, we just don't have the resources to bring in special prosecutors on every one of these cases.

In a case like this, however, because of all of the attention, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that. But as a general rule, you don't have any special entitlement to a special impartial prosecutor.

HARLOW: But it does, Holly, it does change the picture when you have the media and as the -- as the governor of Missouri said yesterday, the eyes of the world on this situation.

HUGHES: That's exactly right. And that is why, as Danny explained, they are taking their time and getting it right. I think we're probably going to see dual prosecutions here. I think you're going to see a federal prosecution and I think you're also going to see a state prosecution.

And Danny's right. You can't just go, oh, well, you know, it's local, so therefore, we need a whole new prosecutor. No, you don't. If you have a prosecutor who is not involved in any way personally with this officer, who may or may not be indicted, then there's no reason they can't do their job. They will put up the evidence. They will call the medical examiner. You can't say because it's a small town, everybody there is tainted, everybody is corrupt. That's false a allegation, it is a false assumption.

There are a lot of very good people in this town who want to see justice done and a almost every prosecutor I ever worked with when I was one and worked against as a defense attorney, they want to see justice. They're not trying to do their buddy a favor.

CEVALLOS: Absolutely.

HUGHES: They are going to go after this officer the same way they would anybody else. They're going to look at the autopsy reports, the forensic s, the trajectory, the GSR, is there gunshot residue, is there not? They're going to look at everything. They're going to take eyewitness

statements. They're going to look at the credibility of their witnesses.

And you don't need a special prosecutor to do that. You just need a good, honest prosecutor. So, I think we're going to see the dual prosecutions, but it wouldn't surprise me if they don't leave it in the hands of the local person who is already elected.

HARLOW: Guys, got to get a quick break in here, we are bringing you back after the break to talk more about this. We're looking at a bunch of different angles here -- legally in this case. The legal panel joins us back, in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

Let's bring back in our legal panel to discuss the case into the killing of Michael Brown. I'm joined here in New York by Danny Cevallos. He's a criminal defense attorney and also CNN legal analyst. Holly Hughes also joins us. She is a former prosecutor, now a criminal defense attorney.

Guys, let's continue this conversation. We were just having a heated discussion in the break about the photograph of the officer who killed Michael Brown, Darren Wilson.

To you, Holly, first. That this has not been released by the police. And a lot of people are asking why. Is that typical that you would not release this photograph?

HOLLY HUGHES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, whether it's typical or not, I don't think it's right. They've certainly put out there Michael Brown's photograph. They've released the video of Michael Brown allegedly stealing cigars. So if we are going to have full disclosure, then why not put his picture out there?

I mean, you don't want to paint a target on him and nobody wants to incite violence or have somebody going after him, but if you are truly innocent and if you are not doing anything wrong, then it seems a little disingenuous to put all the negative out there about the person who was shot, the victim, Michael Brown, and not release the officer's photograph.

HARLOW: Danny?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, look, if you want to say there are special rules for special cases when it comes to releasing information, that's fine. But when you take a step back and look at this like any other criminal prosecution, which we should, or investigation, then you ask yourself, is this a normal amount of time for information to be released? Because everybody was upset that there was no information and then when it was released, everyone was upset at what it contained. HARLOW: But Holly's -- Holly's point is if you are putting the photos

and the surveillance video that police say is Michael Brown in the convenience store right before he was killed out there, why aren't you putting the police photo out there? Does she have a point?

CEVALLOS: And my response to that, and Holly, as a prosecutor, would know this, in building her case in chief, you have to ask what is the purpose of that in a typical discovery packet. What purpose does a photograph of an officer serve?

Now a photograph of a suspect, once they are arrested or if they are in a lineup, that is part of discovery, but this is an individual whose identity is absolutely known. So what then is the purpose of releasing photographs? The demand for -- the government is obligated to turn over information under Missouri Law. It's not obligated to turn over anything and everything that the people desire. It's just not the way the law is.

So if they want a photograph and that's not part of the typical discovery packet, we can't say there's an entitlement. There may be some moral obligation to provide it and we can talk about that, but if it's not part of a typical discovery packet and if it's not part of a typical investigative file, then I have to ask, where is the positive right for the people to have that photograph?

HARLOW: You know, Holly --

HUGHES: Poppy, let me jump in and respond to what Danny said. I'm not suggesting that it's part of the legal discovery, but what we are talking about is using

media and social media to sort of get your side of the story out. And since they have chosen -- this young man is dead. There is not going to be an armed robbery or a strong armed robbery prosecution. So why release that video? That's what I'm saying. To me, it seems disingenuous.

HARLOW: So --

HUGHES: You're not going after him for that robbery because he's dead. You can't. So why are we seeing this and we are not seeing anything on the officer? No, you're not entitled to a picture of your police officer in discovery. I'm not suggesting you are. But if you're going to use the media and the social media to put your part of the case out there, let's play fair.

HARLOW: Danny, to her point, a lot of people were very upset and the police said, look, we released this video because you, the media, asked for it and would have gotten sued if they didn't, but the DOJ asked them not to do it. The governor said that he was disappointed, that he didn't know that this was coming.

We know that Michael Brown's family is very disappointed. They said that this was, you know, really just making their son a victim all over again by showing clearly what is a strong arm robbery, that police say is Michael Brown in that, because what we do snow is that the officer who shot and killed him had not seen that video before he did.

CEVALLOS: Yes. Well, look, so what you're telling me is people are not satisfied with the customer service in releasing information by the government. What a surprise. This happens every day. But I will say that just from looking at -- the question is, did they comply with Missouri's Sunshine Law? And you mentioned getting sued. Yes, they would have been sued, but not in the sense that we think of lawsuits.

There is a -- there is a cause of action to force the police to release information that they don't want to release. That's all in Missouri's law. That was enacted by a legislature, which we hope represented the people of Missouri. So Missouri has a law that relates to this. If the police and law enforcement complied with that law, then they've met their obligations and everything beyond that, we can have a debate about whether or not they should morally release this, should we get the police officer's cable bill, should we get his other information?

HARLOW: Come on, that's -- that's different.

CEVALLOS: Well, you know -- you're right.

HARLOW: That is different.

CEVALLOS: I am extending it pretty far, but at the same time, once they've complied with the law and it appears that they did, as long as they are doing that, everything beyond that, if they are not obligated to turn it over, we shouldn't expect that they hand it over in the way or the time or the fashion that we like. Even if we, and that includes me, might want to see it. We may want to see it, we may not be entitled to it.

HARLOW: One thing we do know is that as the governor said, the eyes of the world are on this case, and you know, whether we like it or not, it is different because the world is watching and you're going to have demands from all sides and everyone weighing in. I'm certainly hearing it from everyone, on all sides on Twitter throughout.

Danny, thank you. Holly, thank you. We appreciate the expertise. Thank you both for coming in.

All right. Coming up next here on the NEWSROOM, an Ebola isolation ward is attacked. Patients are now on the loose. It is a very dangerous situation. What happened? How did this unfold? We are going to tell you after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: An all-out battle is raging right now for full control of Iraq's critical Mosul dam. Kurdish forces backed by U.S. airstrikes took over the eastern side of the dam from ISIS militants today.

The victory is the first for Kurdish fighters in the weeklong siege at that dam. Kurdish forces believe that they are on the verge of taking over the dam.

Let's bring in Bob Baer, our national security analyst and former CIA operative.

How significant is this, Bob, in terms of a win for the Kurdish forces and from those U.S. airstrikes?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Poppy, I think this is, you know, a true victory. The United States has been sending in ammunition and weapons to the Kurds and they've clearly been able to fight. I said this a week ago, by the way, that they would turn this around. They have. And they should. Continue on. And the dam is important. You could you flood Baghdad. And this administration was absolutely right to support them.

And I think it has to continue. Iraq has gone very, very bad. How it's going to turn out is anybody's guess. But I fully support the administration on this.

HARLOW: In terms of the administration, though, also saying, you know, the president just a little over a week ago saying they're not going to allow the United States to get dragged into fighting another war in Iraq. You've heard the president say there is no American military solution in Iraq. How much further does the U.S. reach here go?

BAER: Well, here's thing we're going to have to do, Poppy, and that is, you know, deal with people we don't particularly like, such as the Iranians, the regime in Damascus, who, by the way, were bombing ISIS today inside Syria. And it's not much of choice and we don't particularly like the new regime in Baghdad. It's led by a man who's a Shia, who has connected to a party that blew up the embassy in Beirut in 1983.

So we don't have the best of allies yet. At the end of the day we're going to need them to turn this back and as I said before, we're going to need Sunni tribesmen -- there are about two million of them in Anbar Province -- to help turn ISIS back. But I think I'm more optimistic today than I've been in a long time.

HARLOW: What can you tell us about Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi when you think of the leader here and figure head of ISIS? How -- you know, tell us about this person. Tell us about what it takes to progress in a way that you believe the U.S. and Kurdish forces have at least today.

BAER: Well, Poppy, people have been saying that he's a hug. You know, came of Samarra. He doesn't have any sort of intellectual depth. That's just not true. I listened to his sermon a couple of weeks ago. It was very clear classical Arabic. Very convincing to true believers. And don't forget that he actually has created a sort of state, they call it the Islamic state. And this will attract a lot of people all over the Arab world as well as Europe and the United States.

And this has to be turned back. He cannot succeed. He cannot set up a state there. You know, we do have we need our allies. And diplomacy is going to be at the center of this. HARLOW: Do not write him off in terms of calling him a thug, as you

say. This is a critical, critical group for -- you know, that is being fought very intensely here but a win, as you said, for the Kurdish forces and those U.S. airstrikes today.

Want to turn, Bob, to get your expertise on another big story that we're following here. A health care facility that was treating a number of Ebola patients in Liberia was attacked, we've learned just yesterday. What happened is that some of those patients then with Ebola fled the isolation unit, which is obviously a huge problem.

You spent time on the ground there. Can the government in Liberia as you know it at this point in time contain this, give the treatment that is needed and prevent attacks like this?

BAER: Poppy, I was there before the civil war and it was chaotic enough. And it was -- they didn't have good health facilities. And so I can only imagine what it's like today. They fought a very long, bloody civil war. The state never recovered.

Additionally a lot of these patients have been brought in from the country where people don't understand Ebola. One explanation for attack on this clinic was that the residents in Monrovia weren't happy about the Ebola patients being brought there. But worse than that, I mean, the fact that they looted the hospital and they carried out the sheets and the beds and the equipment and the rest of it, I would imagine -- I'm not a scientist -- that this is going to spread the disease.

What we need at this point, Poppy, is an international effort. You simply can't quarantine West Africa and hope for the best. But I mean, you need Western personnel on the ground who understand and facilities that can contain this. I don't see that happening now.

HARLOW: Yes.

BAER: But how far it could spread, I simply don't understand it well enough.

HARLOW: Yes, well, it is a tragic situation. I was shocked when I read that this had happened to all the people there already suffering from Ebola in isolation, trying to -- trying to recover and then this attack happened. It is shocking and we know that Medecins Sans Frontieres, you know, is there on the ground but as you said, we may need even more forces there to try to help.

Thank you, Bob, appreciate it.

BAER: Thanks.

HARLOW: Well, it has been a week of people taking to the streets in Ferguson, Missouri, but of course, this is the big question. How long is this going to continue? Is the curfew going to work? How is the community going to move on?

We are going to ask the local reporter on the ground there next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: We are closely following developments this weekend in Ferguson, Missouri. A community suddenly thrust into the national spotlight after the shooting death of an unarmed teenager, Michael Brown, and the public's fury at how the area's police force has responded.

It is that police response and the community in general and the kids there especially that I want to discuss with Aisha Sultan. She is a columnist with the "St. Louis Post Dispatch."

Thanks for being with us. I appreciate it.

AISHA SULTAN, COLUMNIST, ST. LOUIS POST DISPATCH: Yes, absolutely.

HARLOW: Let's talk first about your column this Sunday. Your column today in the local paper there. Looking at something that frankly we all haven't talked about a lot and that's the kid, the kids in the community that are watching this, that watched the shooting death of Michael Brown and that are watching the protests that have become violent at some points.

What impact is that having on them?

SULTAN: That's an excellent question. And like you said, that's exactly what I wrote about is that, these are children who should be in school, who are far too young to have witnessed a slain teenager lying bloody in their streets of their neighborhood, and they are hearing conversations about how their community is unfairly targeted, perhaps hated. And so what sort of impact does that what have on children?

Psychologists that I have interviewed suggest that it can lead to kids feeling devalued. It can lead to hyper sensitization and being concerned when you see a police officer who is actually childhood symbol of protection, you know, for many of us. And when you're left with this question of, will the police protect me or who can I turn to in a matter -- when I need protection? And the messages you're getting are mixed, well, that has longstanding issues of building trust. And that's what we really hope to do here is as we heal, is how do we build trust back up in this community?

HARLOW: Yes, because those kids are the future. Those kids are the future. And you know, we've been hearing from a lot of parents throughout saying my kids are terrified, but hearing from the kids specifically, is there something specific that stood out to you in speaking to some of these children?

SULTAN: Yes, I think a lot of them aren't really sure how to process this right now because these are not scenes that we're used to seeing in our country let alone suburban St. Louis, I mean, tear gas, dogs, sort of militaristic response that we saw initially. That is something, you know, out of a science fiction movie or some sort of movie that you see on television, not something that you see in your neighborhood or hear about, or even watching the news. Even children who are watching this on the news, they are going to re-

experience this. They're going to have those emotions that come up -- anger, fear, confusion. And so the schools, the local schools are actually going to have counselors on hand and many of the community groups that have counseling have offered free counseling and have told parents, teachers, community leaders that this is something that you have to talk to kids about and reinforce to them that they are valued.

That the world is bigger that just what they're seeing in this small little patch of their community right now and that they -- and that they can be agents for change to prevent things like this from happening in the future.

I mean, isn't that the most important message is that you have agency, you have power, people will listen to you, you have a voice?

HARLOW: I think I'm smiling for the first time in covering this story because I'm so glad to hear you say that. These kids are the future of this community, of this country, of the world, and it matters so much what they see and how they react and how they feel as a result.

Thank you for bringing that to light and for talking to us about it today.

SULTAN: Absolutely.

HARLOW: Thanks, Aisha. Appreciate it.

All right. Coming up next, in Ferguson, Missouri, the family of Michael Brown is not relying on the state autopsy or the forensic work on their son. They are now getting the Justice Department to do their own autopsy and the family is going to do their own as well, with a very famous pathologist.

We are going to talk about who that is, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: In Ferguson, Missouri, the family of the teenager shot and killed last week, Michael Brown, has been granted a federal autopsy. In addition to the state autopsy that was already performed on Michael Brown, that's not all. They've also hired a high-profile pathologist to do a separate, a third autopsy. And that name is someone you probably know.

Let me get to Alexandra Field. She is here with me in New York.

This is a famous pathologist, Michael Baden. What do we know about him?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And that's what's important here because as you can understand, the family wants an investigation that is separate from the state's. We know why. They've got a lot of concerns about the information that's being released. So what they've done is they brought in Michael Baden, he's been tested in other case and it's important when you bring in your own expert, someone who is credible, and has a reputation that will proceed them.

HARLOW: Right.

FIELD: That's why they picked Michael Baden in this case.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD (voice-over): Seeking justice for their son, Michael Brown's family adds a high-profile expert to their team, forensic pathology Michael Baden.

DARYL PARKS, BROWN'S FAMILY ATTORNEY: We think we got one of the best in the world that you could ever have.

FIELD: Baden has brought his expertise to the stand in a number of closely watched cases. He famously testified in O.J. Simpson's murder trial. He was chairman of the committee of pathologist that investigated the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Now he'll investigate the police shooting of an unarmed teen.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Why? Because it ensures trust. Trust is a very important thing. The family wants to know what happened and why should they just rely upon what the authorities tell them?

FIELD: Earlier this week the St. Louis County Medical Examiner's office determined the cause of death was gunshot wounds but said, quote, "We are not specifying how many gunshot wounds at this point. The investigation into his death is still ongoing and the full autopsy is not likely to be released for many weeks because multiple law enforcement agencies are now involved in the investigation."

Mistrust between authorities and locals has exploded to the surface in Ferguson, Missouri, where Brown's death has sparked a week of protests, looting, a shooting and sometimes violent responses from police.

In their search for answers, the Brown family has insisted on an autopsy from a federal medical examiner and the Browns will now rely on a separate investigation conducted by their own expert.

(On camera): What else will Michael Baden be looking at in this case?

LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST, JOHN JAY COLLEGE: Well, Michael Baden is going to be asking a lot of questions not just about the autopsy but about the gun. Is there only police officer's DNA on that gun or if here was in fact a struggle?