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Dr. Drew

The Death of Michael Brown

Aired August 18, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, the death of Michael Brown, a community in pain, growing rage, seething suspicion and mistrust.

We`ll talk about what`s going on in Ferguson, Missouri, and what is really behind it.

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Good evening, everyone. I`m coming tonight from New York City. Sam is in Los Angeles. She, of course, is my co-host.

And coming up, we`re going to hear from a young woman who said she witnessed the death of Michael Brown.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: That`s right, Dr. Drew. She actually took a video of this just moments after the shooting, and she will be

bringing it here to us shortly.

PINSKY: You know, Sam, this story has he confused and upset. I know you`re the same way. We`re going to try to get into this tonight and

figure out what is going on here and try to make some sense of all of this. I don`t know if we`re going to succeed.

I`ve got question marks everywhere. You?

SCHACHER: Yes, I do, Dr. Drew. But I`ve actually done a lot of independent research over the last few days, and I really want justice for

Michael Brown.

PINSKY: You`re going to convince. But, first -- I don`t mean I don`t want that. I`m just saying, convince me -- help me understand what this

all is.

What I do know is we`ve got an unarmed black teen shot at least six times by a Caucasian white police officer, protests have erupted in

Ferguson, Missouri.

Now, the National Guard has been called in. There`s been critiques about the coordination of the police work and whether or not the National

Guard is going to subdue the energy in Ferguson, remains to be seen.

I`m going to speak to a reporter there in just a second. But first, take a look at this tape.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Angry protesters take to the street outraged over the death of Michael Brown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police in riot gear fired tear gas into the crowd after they see violent protesters began attacking officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want to sugar coat it. Their baby was executed in broad daylight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A police officer squad car pulled up, and when he pulled up, this is his exact words, he said get the F on the sidewalk and

he grabbed his arm to pull him into the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allegedly push shed the police officer back into the car where he physically assaulted the police officer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His weapon was drawn and side I`ll shoot you or I`m going to shoot. In the same moment, the first shot went off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within the police car, there was a struggle over the officer`s weapon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All bullets entered from the front.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was blood coming from him and we took off running.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No gun powder was found on Brown`s body, suggesting he was not shot at close friend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as my friend felt that shot, he turned around, he put his hands in the air and he fired several more shots.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining us to discuss, Leeann Tweeden, social commentator, host of "The Tomboys Podcast" on Blog Talk Radio, Vanessa Barnett,

HipHollywood.com, Karamo Brown, host of #OWNShow on Oprah.com.

Vanessa, you know, those two stories are close but the perspectives are so different. Vanessa, how do you feel about this?

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: You know, Dr. Drew, just like so many other people, I am confused. I am enraged. I am torn up.

One, I just want everyone to remember that, you know, we need to be there in support of Michael Brown`s family and that a lot of times right

now a lot of the energy is being focused on the negative. People want to talk about the rioting. People want to talk about the looting.

But we need to know why was this young man shot six times and killed in cold blood. I feel that is becoming a murkier topic and is being

overshadowed by a lot of other things. We want answers and we`re not being given answers.

There`s take -- there`s a long delay on things we should have known instantaneously. And when you have right on your side, there`s no need for

delay. There`s not to get your story together. I feel like that`s what the police in Ferguson are doing. They`re releasing strategic information

to narrate the story the way they see fit and to cover up whatever happened on that day.

LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Wait, I --

PINSKY: I know you`ve got another point of view, Leeann. But, first, one thing that I thin Vanessa`s point is well-taken which is that what`s

going on in Ferguson is diverting from what happened. But, Leann, I`m going to give you a second answer to that, because I`ve got David Mattingly

in Ferguson.

David, can you tell us what`s going on right now?

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Drew, right here behind us, we actually have the first signs of National Guard on the ground in

Ferguson right here behind me. You see a small group of them there.

We actually saw about 10 Humvees and I caught in the background here four bus loads of national guardsmen. The ones we see have their side

arms. They are military police, MPs. It is their job, according to the governor of Missouri, to guard this area where we`re standing because this

is the staging area for the state police. The state police are the ones who are actually out in the street dealing with the crowds every night.

They want to make sure their headquarters so to speak here is protected while they`re out doing that.

The governor is promising a very limited role for the National Guard here. This is the space that they`re supposed to be guarding. So, that`s

what we`re looking at right now.

Of course, every night here is different. The crowds on Sunday night seemed to escalate again from what we were seeing over the week. But every

single night is different in intensity and in character. Everyone just waiting to see what tonight is going to bring.

PINSKY: David, thank you for that report. We`ll certainly keep in close touch. If you see any changes, let us know. We`ll stay right on top

of that.

Leeann, I got to wonder, I`m going to say your piece there in response to Vanessa. But I got to wonder if the National Guard is going to

deescalate things or escalate things.

TWEEDEN: Well, I mean, that`s why you have your state militia. I mean, that`s what their job is when there are tensions and things that the

police can`t do on their own, you bring in the National Guard.

To Vanessa`s point, I want to say they have to take their time because there are three investigations going on right now. Sure everybody wants

instant justice. You want what happened. Well, you have what the cop says, you have what the guy that was with Brown said and you have the

people and the bystanders and all of this video they have to extrapolate the information. They have to find where the truth is and all of that

information.

We`ve all seen the stories today. You hear one side of it. He was -- he pushed the cop back in the car. The gun went off while he was trying to

grab it inside the cop car. The cop got out. He ran and he turned around and tried to bum rush the cop. That`s one story.

That`s why all of the bullet holes are in front of him. Not him running away. We don`t know if he put his arms up or not.

Dr. Michael Baden said all five shots were not life-threatening except the sixth one that hit him in the head. So, we don`t know if he was

putting his arms up in a defensive posture or not. But --

(CROSSTALK)

TWEEDEN: We don`t know.

Hold on, Vanessa, we do have video today where you hear bystanders as the body is still lay in the street saying he was in the cop car and then

he ran from the cop and then ran back towards him.

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: The uncovered body.

PINSKY: Is that what I have coming up right now or is that in the next block? I`m going to play exactly what Leeann is referring to, where

there`s a guy in the background describing, it`s a report from the scene where the guy in the background was heard describing what happened, and the

description is very similar to what Leeann said.

Karamo, your thoughts? I -- can you make anymore sense of this than any of us?

KARAMO BROWN, #OWNSHOW: Yes, I can make a lot of sense. Well, first, we -- I want to know when is America going to be tired of seeing our kids,

American kids dead in the streets, because enough is enough.

And, secondly, I want to make sure that people know what`s happening here is a lot of fear-based decisions. Fear based decisions based from the

cops, from the governor, from the people who are being sad. There`s so much fear going on, false evidence appearing real. That`s what I want

people to understand.

This cop fear this man and he made an erratic decision. Because of that erratic decision, the governor made a fear decision and sent more

troops in. You can`t solve crimes with more guns. That`s the issue here.

PINSKY: Yes.

TWEEDEN: Yes, but people need to stop rioting, Karamo.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Hang on. Whoa! I got to go to break.

And, Sam, I know you`ve got a whole researched version you want to get to. You`re going sit right beside me and I`m going to hear from you.

Karamo, there`s one thing you said that I want to take my hat to you for, you said this is our problem as Americans. This is not -- we got to

stop being so divisive. We have to stop it. I was a little unhappy with the way the language our president used today. It felt a little divisive.

This is our problem. We must solve it together rather than us versus them. It`s got to stop.

Next, the behavior bureau comes in. And later, hear from the woman who says she witnessed the shooting and see the video she took from her

window.

Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just reached his arm out the window and grabbed my friend around his neck. As he was trying to choke my friend, his weapon

was drawn and he said, I`ll shoot you or I`m going to shoot. And in the same moment the first shot went off. We looked at him, he was shot and

there was blood coming from him and we took off running.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam and our behavior bureau, Evy Poumpouras, former special agent with Secret Service, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist,

professor at Pepperdine University, and Tiffanie Davis Henry, HLN contributor, psychotherapist.

It is tense tonight in Ferguson, Missouri. Reasonably, the National Guard is on the scene, as you just saw.

Evy, what do you make -- let`s get to the witness accounts and the very -- I`m surprised there`s not a greater variation amongst the

eyewitness accounts, because I`m used to eyewitnesses being so inaccurate.

What do you think is going on here?

EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER SPECIAL AGENT: That`s correct, Dr. Drew. Eyewitness accounts are actually very inaccurate. They typically have

about a 70 percent ratio as far as accuracy goes. So, that`s why we have so many different stories.

The other thing to keep in mind is that witnesses lie as well, unfortunately. I`ve worked many cases where witness, all they need to do

is give their account of the story and unfortunately they can skew information because they may have a certain motive or want the case to go

one way or another. Or they my simply want to deflect information off of them or they may simply be afraid and do not want to get involved, which I

think is a lot of what we`re dealing here with this case.

PINSKY: Yes. Now, Judy, I want to ask you, police have been slow to release info about the case. Do you think that`s what`s creating some of

the consternation here? Or do you think it`s a lack of coordination in how do we assess -- I guess I`m asking the question from a psychological

perspective.

How do we assess what`s unfolding? How this has gone? Why there`s such outrage? Why there`s such aggression from a psychological

perspective?

JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Dr. Drew, I think what`s happening here is an illustration of how much we all want to believe that we have control

over our life and over our circumstances. Now, when something like this happens, we feel like we`re losing that control and that can make people

very defensive and aggressive to try to protect yourself. That fight or flight comes up right away and you`re trying to just survive.

Part of the problem with this sort like slow piecemeal revealing of the information as well, there`s some really, really big problems of it.

And one, I think it`s given some people to actually start making things up and look at other things that are not reliable and making an opinion

already so that when you get the information, you`re just assimilating it into what you already know, because we don`t like to change our minds.

PINSKY: Right.

HO: Once we`ve made up our minds it takes approximately 13 facts for us to actually consider changing our minds. That`s going to be really

hard.

PINSKY: Yes.

I -- so, Tiffanie, I get what Judy is saying here. We come with our biases to this and it`s a confusion situation so our biases tend to inform

us more than the actual facts.

TIFFANIE DAVIS HENRY, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: For sure, Dr. Drew.

But we also have to remember that with information purposely and intentionally delayed or mitted, it makes us think that somebody has

something to hide or that they`re really trying to cover things up. So, when you delay in releasing the officer`s name or you realize, there`s in

dash cam or lapel pen, how convenient that we don`t see what actually happened from the officer`s perspective and you delay just bits and pieces

about the case, it makes people feel like there`s something to hide.

Add on to that, the cultural perspective here in that these people have probably a history of not trusting the police because of past hurt.

PINSKY: Right.

HENRY: It`s pile-on effect.

PINSKY: Sam?

SCHACHER: That`s exactly right, Tiffanie. I mean, this town, just speaking of history and speaking of today, is predominantly African-

American. The police force is 94 percent white. The government is all white.

So, you can imagine that these residents feel that they don`t have any sort of understanding or empathy from their authoritative figures. Have

their authoritative figures, who are white like myself, have they ever been mistreated by the police or wrongfully arrested or harassed? No. Because

of the pigment of their skin color.

And also, Dr. Drew, I want to respond to what Leeann had said about what we have been talking about with Judy about the leaking of the

information. And Leeann had said that -- well, listen, it`s an ongoing investigation and they need to keep some things private while they

investigate.

Well, actually, I think that it`s really odd that they never questioned any of the witnesses, nor the key witness who was there while

Michael Brown died. Why didn`t they allow the EMT to go on to the scene and actually attempt resuscitation? Why didn`t they allow the family

members to have access to the autopsy?

Those are all things to me that just don`t really add up and don`t sit right.

PINSKY: Let me ask Evy that question. Have you ever been in situations like this? Can you understand Sam`s point of view here, that

people are asking these questions and not getting the answers they want?

POUMPOURAS: So, there`s a lot of different points here. One with what Tiffanie brought up and that Sam touched on is the community. Police

work has moved away more from being reactive to a more community oriented policing style, where the police have a better relationship with the

community.

Now, when you have communities such as Ferguson city where you have a lot of crime, disproportionate amount of, as far as the race of the

community as compared to that of the police department, you`re going to have -- you`re not going to have that community-oriented policing. So,

you`re going to have stress between the community and the police department. That does not allow for a good relationship, a strong

relationship.

Hence, that is why the county and the people within that county and city don`t trust police and as far as the investigation is going. And

there are a lot of unanswered questions.

The thing is, this guy, I know it`s easy to come up with conspiracies. But I have to tell, being on the other side, sometimes there aren`t

conspiracies. Sometimes they don`t know what is what. They`ve got so many stories. They don`t have all of the facts. You`ve got different witness

accounts here, testimonies there.

And I really do think that they`re trying to find out what`s going on. The FBI has moved in. Why are they moving in? They`re trying to do their

own interviews, proper interviews because you need to get the right information to figure out what happened. The truth, I think, truly it`s

less about conspiracy and they just don`t know what`s going on.

PINSKY: But should we say that`s a poorly coordinated police effort then or is that the way these kinds of things play out?

POUMPOURAS: This is the problem, Dr. Drew. The witnesses within this area, a lot of what I`m hearing from my own sources in that area, is

they`re afraid to come out and speak. They don`t want to get involved.

And this is quite common when you have cases in high crime neighborhoods, in areas where people don`t like the police and don`t trust

the police and have a poor relationship. They don`t want to get involved or even seem pro-police in any shape or form. A lot of people are

withholding information because they simply don`t want to get involved. That`s a problem. We`ve got a shooting in broad daylight.

How do we not know what happened? How do we not have proper witness accounts and testimonies to get the proper information?

PINSKY: That is the question.

SCHACHER: They didn`t take the witness accounts.

PINSKY: But, Sam, I know you`ve got a lot more information to give us tonight. I can`t wait to hear what you`ve been researching and I`m anxious

to hear it.

So, next up, a young woman who says she saw the shooting has come forward with a video that she taped from her window.

Later, a mother-to-be, she`s seven months pregnant, minding her own business, punched in the head for no reason. The knockout game.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You see a tussle at the police cruiser. What was going on? What happened?

WITNESS: OK. Well, from my point of view, I could not tell exactly what was going on. But it just looked as if he was trying to pull him

almost into the car. And he got away and it seems to have upset the officer. Got out and ran, just started chasing after the boy. I`m hearing

shots fired.

OFFICER`S FRIEND "JOSIE": Michael just bum-rushes him, shoves him back into his car, punches him in the face and then, of course, Darren

grabs for his gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he fired a second shot and that struck my friend Big Mike. And at that time, he turned around with his hands up,

beginning to tell the office that he was unarmed. But at that time, the officer was firing several more shots into my friend and he hit the ground

and died.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Judy, Leann and Karamo.

The police officer`s photos from Facebook, there are several witness comments about what happened between the officer and Michael Brown, a lot

of conflict. Actually, there`s close affinity of these two stories but they`re different. They`re different enough that it makes you very

confused about what the motives were and what happened here, was there excessive force.

And, Judy, of course, there`s a rich literature out there about the inaccuracy of eyewitnesses.

HO: That`s right, Dr. Drew. Eyewitness testimony can be affected by many things, including anxiety and stress, weapon focus, meaning at the

moment, they`re focusing in on the weapon instead of looking at the big picture in terms of their account, and also a variety of other factors,

including what that individual`s experiences that day, their own categorization of information.

And here`s my problem with the eyewitness testimonies and how we sort of digest that. Everybody is going to come up with their version of the

story that makes the most sense in their mind, in their schemas.

So, when you try to reconcile the information, it`s not going to help. And in addition, when we were talking in the last block with Evy about

bring in the FBI so they can reconduct these evaluations, well, these individual`s minds are already tainted with their view.

So, when you go back and ask the questions, that doesn`t necessarily give you the accurate report this time. Leading questions are a big

problem in witnesses testimony as well, when you`re asking confirmatory questions, such, so how many times did you see the bullet hit? How many

bullets were there, four, five, six?

When you ask close-ended questions like that, that`s going to cut into the accuracy as well because you don`t give the individual open response

options. So, here are my concerns about what`s going on.

PINSKY: Sam, I want you to lay it out for me, because I -- here`s my concern, which is it seems like six shots really to make a kid stop? What

have you learned? What -- you did a bunch of research today. Help me make sense of this.

SCHACHER: OK. Well, first, to respond to you -- I agree with you. If Michael Brown was bum-0rushing him, which I don`t believe he was, could

you not mace him first or tase him or shot both of his knee caps before taking his life. He was 35 feet away from you according to the coroner

report.

But, Dr. Drew, yes -- I mean, for the past few nights I`ve been watching this live feed that you can see on the internet where you`re

watching these protests go down. What has alarmed me is the conflicting reports from the mayor and from the head of the police saying that the

protesters were the ones that were violent -- yes, of course, there are some violent protesters and looter going around and unfortunately they`re

making it hard for the peaceful protesters to advocate and get their voice across.

But, Dr. Drew, I saw the protesters retreating for a good 35 seconds before the tear gas was released on to them. I never saw any Molotov

cocktails.

And lastly, are any of the police injured? No. But there`s children that are injured. There`s people that have been shot. That is not OK.

PINSKY: Leeann, how about the six shots --

TWEEDEN: You know what Sam?

PINSKY: Yes?

TWEEDEN: OK. First of all, let`s talk about what we`re talking about tonight, the death of Michael Brown which is tragic. The kid should not be

dead.

PINSKY: Yes.

TWEEDEN: But let`s look at the big picture. We know now that -- people just want to look at everything in one single box. But to me, when

you gather information about anything that you`re talking about, you have to gather background information. You have to see what the person is

doing. What is their account?

We know that the officer just got an award from the police department. We know that Michael Brown had just stolen boxes of $50 cigars from the

shop.

Whether the cop knew that or not, but let me finish my question, or let me finish my statement.

I talked to a police officer who is a highway patrolman here in California, and when you are attacked by a man that is 6`4", almost 300

pounds. He says he was being bum-rushed and the account of a video that we heard from a guy, you hear him in the background says he was coming at the

police officer.

Let me tell you, if that police -- they say, it`s necessary, reasonable and appropriate when you have to deal with your gun. He says

it`s the intent of the person coming at you, the ability of them to harm you as a police officer, and if you have fear.

If we do -- if we go by what the police officer was saying and what some people say that there was a struggle at the car. We have heard that

the gun went off in the car. So, we already know that the cop is dealing with this information that maybe a 300-pound man was dealing with the gun.

SCHACHER: There are no signs of a struggle.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Leeann, no.

HO: Five shots, the guy was probably still standing up. You`re asking me about six shots. The sixth one in the head killed him.

PINSKY: All right. Let`s assume that`s right.

Karamo, help me, man. You were the one --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Karamo, please. Before you start -- the one thing that bothers me, as soon as we start talking about what happened, we immediately

start splitting, rather than unifying and healing --

TWEEDEN: I`m just trying to deal with facts and what we know.

PINSKY: I understand and I don`t blame you for not looking at it that way.

SCHACHER: But you`re not looking at facts with, Leeann. There was no evidence of a struggle.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Karamo, you`re the one that told, started using the word "we", it`s our problem. Help me. Help me with this. How do we keep it

our problem and not that guy and this guy`s?

BROWN: Yes. You are right, Dr. Drew. And, first of all, I wanted to say something really quickly to Leeann. You made the statement that he was

fearful. And, I said that there was a lot of fear based decisions happening in this whole case.

PINSKY: Yes.

BROWN: And, I acknowledge that --

PINSKY: Yes.

LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: True.

BROWN: -- But, can I tell you really quickly that in this situation we need to band together as a country and start figuring out solutions --

PINSKY: Here we go.

TWEEDEN: I agree.

BROWN: -- I am a black man who lives in the country and I understand how hard it is to walk and to have someone fear me just because of who I am

without any motives. But, that is what I do not want to focus on right now. What I want to focus on --

PINSKY: We should.

BROWN: -- is how do we tell people to get together that we need to get together? How do we band together to find solutions --

PINSKY: Yes.

BROWN: -- how do we help people to mobilize --

TWEEDEN: Yes.

BROWN: -- to go to their city councils, to get these police officers and tell them get them out of office, get them out of power.

TWEEDEN: Yes.

BROWN: Because they are the ones that are causing these bad situations, these horrific situations to continuously happen. It is not

all Americans are not bad.

TWEEDENT: How about this Dr. Drew? How about this Dr. Drew? If the police officer walked up to the guys because they were walking in the

street -- Let`s start from the very beginning. They were walking down the center of the street. The cop pulled up and said please get off the street

for you safety and the safety of the vehicles travelling on the street. And, the guys looked at him and they just laughed at him and said, "Well,

we are a meter away." Why did not they just walk onto the sidewalk and he would not be dead?

BROWN: Well, that does not warrant him to get shot, Leeann.

TWEEDEN: Because there is a -- there is a mistrust.

BROWN: That does not warrant him to get shot.

TWEEDEN: There is a mistrust of police.

PINSKY: Guys.

BROWN: There is a mistrust --

TWEEDEN: The police stated --

PINSKY: It is deeper than that I am afraid.

SCHACHER: It is so much deeper than that.

PINSKY: Yes. This is good. This is good. We have got to keep digging at this. Am I going to get a chance to play that video you think?

This block or maybe even the next block? Because I want to talked to Bill Lloyd, next. He is here. We are going to get his expert take on the

Michael Brown autopsy results. What they reveal? What they mean? Can we say anything based on those autopsy results after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN CRUMP, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: I do not want to sugar coat it. Their baby was executed in broad daylight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: The autopsy is now showing that he was shot from the front, not the back.

PIAGET CRENSHAW, WITNESS ON MIKE BROWN`S FATAL SHOOTING: Exactly.

PEREIRA: Does that square with what you saw?

CRENSHAW: Definitely, because he was running away. So, when he turned towards the cop is when he let off more shots.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: If a gunshot wound did hit him at a close range in the vehicle, then there would be gunshot residue on the clothing

that would have been filtered out and would not be present on his skin.

MICHAEL BADEN, BOARD-CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: All of these gunshot wounds were survivable except for the one in the top of the head

that went through the brain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Evy and Vanessa. Joining us Dr. Bill Lloyd, surgeon and pathologist who has performed more than 500 autopsies. Michael

Brown`s family hired their own medical examiner to do a second autopsy on their son. Dr. Lloyd, what is your take on Dr. Michael Baden`s findings?

BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Well, first of all I know Dr. Baden. I have collaborated with him in the past and he is a brilliant

pathologist. He, himself, describes the findings even today`s private autopsy as preliminary. There is much more work that needs to be done.

However, he identified what he says are six gun shot wounds including the lethal one that entered the top of the skull and caused such severe

brain damage incompatible with life. Now, another important issue though is the toxicology.

And, we will have to wait weeks for that. But, the value of it is, it is the objective information, that scientific information we need to make

good decisions going forward. We have heard a lot of rhetoric, Drew. We need some scientific information and the toxicology is going to help.

PINSKY: Yes. Well, Dr. Lloyd, did they not withhold the clothing evidence from the second autopsy? Because that seemed like they need that

objective data as well and did not have access to it.

DR. LLOYD: Yes, it goes to the protocol of second autopsies or third autopsies. Now, Dr. Baden commented that he consulted with the local

medical examiner before beginning that second autopsy. Now, it is like performing a repeat scientific experiment. You have to make sure that you

do not bias yourself with the findings of the first autopsy as you go in to perform the repeat autopsy.

It is important to note also that Mr. Brown was already embalmed at the time the second autopsy was performed. And, that can have a bearing on

some of the findings at the second autopsy, as well as some tissue changes that may have occurred during the first biopsy that may have been

recognized during the second biopsy.

PINSKY: Vanessa, did you make anything of that second autopsy? Did you get any new information? I think I understood -- Let me ask Evy this,

since she is used of this kind of thing. It seemed like the autopsy as I understood it was showing that the kid was shot maybe from behind in his

arm like moving away and then clearly facing the officer the remainder of the shots. And, again, why not shoot to stop rather than shoot to kill?

EVY POUMPOURAS, ON-AIR SECURITY AND INVESTIGATIVE ANALYST: Right. That is the key thing. When you are train as a police officer, you are

trained to shoot to stop, not to kill. That does not mean it does not apply in this situation here, Dr. Drew, hypothetical. I know you mentioned

earlier, why six shots?

When you are shooting an individual, when you feel threatened you do not typically sit there and count your shots. You cannot do that in such a

quick timeframe. What you are doing is you are shooting the individual that you feel threatened by. So, in this situation, possibly, again, we

are surmising here. The threat is advancing.

You pull your weapon out. You discharge your rounds. The victim here was shot in his extremities. Those shots may have not been able to stop

the individual. But, that final shot, which unfortunately struck him at the head was probably the final shot, which caused him to stop at that

moment.

There is a lot of factors that go into this, Dr. Drew. The one thing the doctor just mentioned earlier is toxicology, that also will make an

effect if there is any substance or anything within an individual`s body or genetically or the biology of an individual. It may take somebody one shot

to go down and to stop and cease and desist and another individual multiple shots.

The thing is this at the end of the day, Dr. Drew. You do not shoot someone to kill them. You shoot someone to stop them. And, so, at that

point, if Michael Brown did not stop his advance towards the police officer, if that is what in fact happened, then that officer would be

shooting multiple rounds until the individuals cease and desists.

PINSKY: Vanessa, I want your reaction on all this.

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I just feel like we are talking so much about facts. Everyone wants facts. Well the facts are, this young

man was shot in the top of his head. We want to talk about him being 6`4", and 300 pounds, and he is a threat and this and then the third. He was

shot on top of his head.

And, there are only one way I can think of that that would happen. More facts. We keep talking about the fear that this police officer had

because of this black man that could have been charging at him. What about the fear that this man had? Michael Brown was walking in the middle of the

street.

Whether or not he should have been there is irrelevant at this point when this police officer drove ahead, backed up. You have a car coming at

you and then you a police officer grabbing you. He may not have a gun but this police officer did. This man was just as fearful for his life and

look what it got him. It got him six shots in his body.

SCHACHER: Right.

BARNETT: He had no defense.

PINSKY: Yes.

BARNETT: So, if we want to bring up facts and we want to talk about the fear, let`s talk about the fear that Michael Brown had. We want to

bring up the fact that this police officer got a medal. Michael Brown just graduated from high school. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about

some of the things that Michael Brown did that were positive?

SCHACHER: Thank you.

BARNETT: I feel like everything is being so skewed. I know you want us to unite but not right now because it is still divisive. And, until we

get answer and until people look at both sides Dr. Drew --

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

BARNETT: -- I am trying to look at the police officer`s side too.

PINSKY: No. I agree with you. I agree.

BARNETT: Yes. If he is fearful -- if he is fearful, you react in a fearful way. But, Michael Brown is scared. He is scared and he does not

know what to do. No one is saying that and that is a problem.

PINSKY: No -- but Vanessa, what you are saying is what I am looking for -- Listen, we are looking at facts because that is all we can go by.

We are trying to make sense of a very confusing situation, but you are mentioning facts too. That is a fact. He was scared, too.

I think -- Listen, the rhetoric that Karamo is launching us into is a good place to start. Talking about fear on both sides, talking about how

we bring together rather than split apart in the face of something that is confusing and creates tremendous emotion, tremendous. It has to. It is a

tragedy and it is confusing.

We got to, however, we got to stay with the facts also. Next up, Michael Brown`s death is dominating social media. We are going to do that.

I am going to play a tape for you also. We have tweets. We have Facebook. We got a lot coming up after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POUMPOURAS: This is quite common when you have cases in high crime neighborhoods in areas where people do not like the police and do not trust

the police and have a poor relationship. They do not want to get involved or even seem pro-police in any way, shape or form. We do not know what

happened.

So, again, a lot of people are withholding information because they simply do not want to get involved. And, that is the problem. We got a

shooting in broad daylight. How do we not know what happened?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Leeann and Karamo. You are looking - - I am going to show you live pictures. There you go. Live pictures of Ferguson, tonight. Remember, CNN is there on the scene. HLN is there.

And, we have the national guard guarding the police command post. Whether or not that is going to result in reduced tensions.

I was just watching some footage a few seconds ago, where there were large numbers of people moving around. Do we have that on tape at all? --

No, we do not have that. But, believe me, it is a very fluid situation there.

Now, earlier in the show we wanted to play you a tape. I believe Leeann mentioned it. A guy on the background, showing at least support for

what part of Officer Wilson`s account of what happened that day was.

The account is on a videotape we saw earlier this week from a witness heard just off camera telling another bystander that Brown first run away

then turned back and started walking towards the office. Listen closely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WITNESS: The police was in the truck, he was like over the truck or what not so then he ran. Police got out and ran after him. And, then the

next thing I know he is coming back towards the (INAUDIBLE) police had his gun drawn already.

BYSTANDER: Ohh! The police got this (EXPLICIT WORD)

CAMERA: You got to eat. I ain`t dead. I got to eat.

WITNESS: Police kept dumping at him. I am thinking that the police missing like he is like --

CAMERA: God rest his soul because he is gone.

WITNESS: -- like this far from him dumping at him.

CAMERA: There go his momma, I guess.

WITNESS: Police, police fired shots. Next thing I know, I think he is missing.

BYSTANDER: The police did this?

WITNESS: The police shot him.

WOMAN: Where is the ambulance? (INAUDIBLE) Why is not somebody helping him? (INAUDIBLE) Why is not somebody helping him?

WITNESS: The next thing I know I think he is missing (INAUDIBLE) started running, kept coming towards police.

BYSTANDER: He is gone OG. He is gone. He is gone. Police shot him. Police did it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: So sad. We have not been able to find that witness to ask further questions about what he saw. Leeann?

TWEEDEN: You know, I have been getting tweets during the commercial breaks and I am like the most hated person right now on your show, Dr.

Drew. And, I just want to clarify. I am not defending the police officer. We are trying to take everything that we know now, which is not a lie, and

try to talk about it. And, I am not defending the cop. I am not defending Michael Brown, either. We are all just trying to figure out what is going

on. I am not a racist. I grow up in a black neighborhood. I am not white, people. I am half white, OK? The tension is so hard. People do

not understand.

PINSKY: Do not cave in to it.

TWEEDEN: All I said is he should have got on the sidewalk and they say I am insensitive.

PINSKY: Leeann do not cave in to the divisiveness.

TWEEDEN: I mean I am not. I am just describing to people how I am looking at it. I am trying to look at the facts and what has come out and

that is what I based my information on.

PINSKY: I get it. I get it. We asked you here to do that, so I appreciate that. Samantha.

SCHACHER: Yes. And, Leeann, do not worry because I am getting a lot of hate tweets too. Unfortunately, this is a really polarizing issue

depending on what perception you have. And, I think what has led me to have this mistrust in the police department unfortunately is the fact that

these facts keep changing when evidence is presented.

The fact that he was shot, the first bullet in close range, that there is no gun powder residue on the body. The fact that the information, the

police department, when they released the name of the officer was at the same day that they released this alleged robbery video.

But, then you find out from the employees of this convenience store, as well as the owner of this convenience store, that they never reported it

to the police or disclosed it to the police until after Michael Brown was shot. But, then you hear the police department saying, "Oh, so this is the

reason in so many words, this is the reason why they were a suspect of Michael Brown."

PINSKY: All right. Mr. Karamo and Vanessa, I hope I have time to get to you in this block. But, Karamo, the word of the night is fear -- fear

and divisiveness. You started with it. You brought it up. How do we move forward with fear creating distortions on all sides and everybody jumping

into camps as opposed to getting together?

BROWN: You are right, Dr. Drew. That is exactly what I wanted to end this on is that there is so much fear here. There are so many people that

are hurting, that are scared. But, I want to tell the people at home that you have the power to create the change that you want to see.

That this situation, though it is happening over and over, you have the power for us to bond together as Americans to go to your police

departments, to go to your local officials and tell them that this must stop.

PINSKY: Right.

BROWN: The protesting is great. The peaceful protesting, and I support that. But it is time we start seeing policy change.

PINSKY: You know what? You are right. Local communities are the answer. It is not a federal bureaucracy that is going to solve the

problem. The DOJ is coming in. The FBI is going -- It is the local communities that are going to figure this out. I had the knockout game in

the next block. I have to show you that video because it is something just too much -- we got to be aware of it. I got the keep this conversation

going right to the end. I want to hear what Vanessa has to say. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Leeann, Vanessa and Karamo. And, I was going to show you tonight a video of a knockout game. You know, where somebody

walks by, someone will blast them in the face and they are unconscious. And, this was perpetrated on a pregnant woman. I would ask you, please log

on to our website, hlntv.com/dr.drew for that video. Vanessa, I wanted to get your reaction. We are going to have, hopefully, some live pictures in

a minute from Ferguson, while you are reacting, but go ahead. I can get your thoughts after the last block.

BARNETT: I just think at this point we have, we have been talking about why are things so divisive and why has it become such a race issue.

And, I really just think the black community is fed up. From Oscar Grant to Trayvon Martin, we are at a place where we do not feel like that this

issue is being handled.

PINSKY: What is this issue? What is that?

BARNETT: This issue of young black men being killed. We are losing young black men senselessly. They are not armed. They are not hurting

anyone. And, that word again, fear. There is this irrational fear.

PINSKY: Vanessa, I am going to stop you. Vanessa, let me ask you something. You are right. When my friends tell me they have to be fearful

of themselves walking around or their children, it breaks my heart. And, we heard the President tonight --

BARNETT: And, that is real.

PINSKY: The President came up with all sorts of bureaucratic answers. There is something much more we got to do. Bureaucracy is not going to

solve this problem.

BARNETT: We can listen to each other but we have to listen to both sides.

BROWN: Vanessa, I hear you -- Vanessa

PINSKY: Karamo.

BARNETT: I just want to say if one someone --

BROWN: Vanessa, I hear you and I am with you --

PINSKY: Delay.

BROWN: Vanessa, I hear you and I am telling you that I fee what you are saying and what you are doing. I have two black boys that when the

situation happened I brought them in the house and hugged them tight because I am scared.

But, we have to look at it like the teaching the Martin Luther King. We have to go back to what we know to be true. We have to stand strong

together as Americans and we have to let love conquer here. And, I am upset and I am fearful and I am mad. There is so many emotions I am going

through, but I am trying to focus on the solutions and how we can work together.

PINSKY: Yes.

BROWN: Because that is the only way we are going to get through this.

BARNETT: And, we are trying. We are trying. 90 percent of those protests are peaceful.

SCHACHER: Yes.

BARTNETT: But when you show up and put a gun in my face -- innocently I feel fear too. I feel like I need to react in some way. And, who knows,

one person may say that Michael Brown was bum rushing this cop and another person may say he us was running him telling him I am unarmed, please do

not kill me. We do not know.

And, so, when you are telling this narrative and you want things to get better, you have to tell both sides and you have to listen to both

sides because they are both valid here. If we want any hope of moving on, that is our first step.

PINSKY: Sam?

SCHACHER: And, that is where we have to wait for it too. We have to wait for the investigations to be done so we know what happened and they

can move forward.

PINSKY: Yes. Yes. I wish time -- somebody said, I was reading a twitter feed. Somebody said that "Fear is not the word. Time is the

word." We got to get to the answer here. But fear is the word tonight. Sam, last thoughts on this.

SCHACHER: Yes. Absolutely. I just want to -- as Vanessa said so eloquently, I want to see this not happen anymore. And, I think that is

why people are outraged and they are advocating what all of their might and heart and soul is because --

PINSKY: You know what? Yes. Sam, you are absolutely right. And, I was just thinking, the President`s words are ringing in my head tonight. I

was sort of at first frustrated then I started thinking, you know, there is a little code he gave us tonight.

He said, our country has a certain history and we have to deal with that history. And I really think that it is enough already. Let`s deal

with it. Honestly, let`s deal with it directly. Let`s deal with it fearlessly.

SCHACHER: Yes.

PINSKY: Karamo and Vanessa, everybody is nodding. Let`s deal with it fearlessly, but let`s be honest. Let`s be really direct about it and have

a direct and thorough conversation about these things and not let anybody else die. Forensic files up next.

END