Return to Transcripts main page

At This Hour

Ferguson Protests Deteriorate to Violence Overnight; Radio Caller Tells Officer's Story; Witness Continues to Tell Different Story; Protests Affecting Entire Community; Brown's Parents Say "Justice" Will End Protests; Trayvon Martin's Mother Writes Open Letter; Local Alderman Calls for Calm; The Relationship Between Race and Police

Aired August 19, 2014 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: @THISHOUR, we take an in-depth look at the tension building and continuing in Ferguson, Mississippi -- or Missouri, pardon me -- Ferguson, Missouri.

My name is Michaela Pereira. John Berman is off.

Ten days, no peace in Missouri, now the community and the country will wondering what tonight will bring when the sun goes down at 7:49 Central Time. What seems to begin as peaceful protests during the day over Michael Brown's death seems to spiral out of control over night.

Police say, last night, demonstrators threw rocks and Molotov cocktails and fired shots at one another. Officers then responded with tear gas and stun grenades. At least two people in the crowd were shot. Authorities, however, believe these shootings were crowd-on- crowd crimes. Four officers are reported injured. More than 30 people arrested.

The man in charge of protest security, Captain Ron Johnson from the state highway patrol is urging people to demonstrate during the day but cautions that there is a dangerous dynamic that emerges at night. He blames a small group of agitators for tipping things over the edge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: We do not want any citizen hurt. We don't want any officer hurt. The old saying on the streets is they say a bullet has no name. We do not want to lose another life in this community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Ferguson there showing his frustration and at times even emotional.

The community's outrage now seems to be inflicting internal damage, business damaged, losing money, the start of the school year apparently now on hold until things calm down. Michael Brown's mother says justice will bring peace, but the chaos of the protests could detract from the shooting that inspired the outrage in the first place. And there are fears that more lives could be lost.

The National Guard is now in Ferguson on the ground, trying to restore peace. Some question whether that is the right move. Attorney General Eric Holder will be in Ferguson tomorrow as the Justice Department opens a civil rights investigation into Brown's death. A grand jury could begin hearing testimony in the case this week as they try to decide whether to return an indictment against Darren Wilson, the officer who shot and killed Michael Brown.

A preliminary autopsy requested by the family found that Brown was shot at least six times, including twice in the head.

Another development for you, a Facebook page called "I Support Officer Wilson," it has already received now more than 33,000 likes. A GoFundMe page has raised more than $20,000 to help with his finances and legal fees.

Now, we haven't heard his side of the story yet. However, a person who says her name is Josie claims to know his version of events. She was on a radio show, Radio America, "The Dana Show," yesterday, and said that Brown rushed the officer before the shooting.

A source close to the investigation says her story is similar to what the officer told investigators. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

"JOSIE," RADIO SHOW CALLER: Michael takes off with his friend. They get to be about 35 feet away, and, you know, Darren's first protocol is to pursue, so he stands up and yells freeze.

Michael and the friend turn around, and Michael starts taunting him, oh, what are you going to do about it? You know, you are not going to shoot me, and then he said all of a sudden he just started to bum rush him.

He started coming at him full speed, and so he just started shooting and he just kept coming. So he really thinks he was on something because he just kept coming. It was unbelievable. So he finally ended up -- the final shot was in the forehead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Now that doesn't square with what some witnesses have said. You might recall I spoke to Piaget Crenshaw. She says she saw Brown running away from the officer.

In fact, she repeated that last night to our Anderson Cooper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, "AC360": So you believe you saw -- you're convinced you saw the officer shooting Michael Brown when Michael Brown was facing away from the officer.

PIAGET CRENSHAW, WITNESS: Yes, sir. And then that is when he turned around with his arms up and got shot down multiple more times.

COOPER: You say his arms were up. There's an account from this woman who called into the radio show who claims that the officer is saying Michael Brown was rushing the police officer. Is that what you saw?

CRENSHAW: No. At no time did I see him move toward that police officer. He may have taken one centimeter of a step forward before he was gunned down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: That young woman, Piaget Crenshaw, is the woman who took the disturbing video that shows Brown's body lying there in the street.

I want to turn to my colleague Don Lemon who has been on the ground in Ferguson for some time now.

My goodness, Don, there's so much to discuss with you. The tension overnight, the sun comes up, more rallies, more protests, I do want you to set the scene, but I wouldn't mind if you could sort of recap for us what went on last night and what you found yourself in the center of.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR, "CNN TONIGHT": It's crazy. Listen, we have been -- you have been on your show for five minutes now and that entire five minutes that you've on the show, you have been giving up date after up date after up date. It took you five minutes to get to me, that shows you how many developments there are in this story and how the details are coming in.

Before I tell you my experience, I do have to say, you know, we have the witnesses coming on, you know, going back and forth. We have the alleged friend of the officer, and by the way that radio show, she did that interview over the weekend. I think it was on Friday or Saturday that she did that, and she said it happened that conversation she had with the officer was immediately after the incident happened, before the big uproar.

And also there are -- we have to just be transparent here. There are unconfirmed reports, and we're hearing from sources, but there are other witnesses on the scene who don't want to be part of the media spotlight who are corroborating the officer's version of the story.

I think we should all be patient, quite honestly, until more investigating, more investigation is done, investigating is done, and until we get more details about exactly what happened.

But last night, to answer your question directly now, I can't really explain to you what we witnessed. It started off really as a peaceful protest, you know, a couple of people in the crowd, you know, doing some things that they shouldn't be doing. People, community leaders and police officers saying it was a small number and it was being done by outside agitators. Ten-thirty, that's when all hell started to break loose. People started throwing bottles. They were telling people to get off the street. Get off that street and that loud piercing sound that you hear, to get off the street and making people move and that's when all the chaos started.

It started to really devolve into something we hadn't seen before. We had to don gas masks at some point because we were being overcome with tear gas. I had to put on a flak jacket.

Many members of the media, I interviewed one person, a freelance photographer who had been overcome by tear gas. People were throwing Molotov cocktails, and at the very end, we had to be moved out by police officers because they said they were in fear of our safety.

We actually saw someone who had been shot get out of a car where we were with his arm wrapped in a towel, a bloody towel. Police officers took him off to be treated. It was unbelievable to witness.

PEREIRA: What a tough night to go through. I'm glad you were there to witness it. I'm sorry that we've had to even send you there to look at this.

There's a couple of things that concern me here, quickly, the fact that I'm sure there is a cool of thawing that all of this is taking away from what is important, the ongoing investigation into what happened.

And then there's the other side of it, the daily reality for the folks of Ferguson. We understand school, which was supposed to start on Thursday, the school district has said no, for now, we're not starting classes up. We can't have our kids on the street on school buses in the midst of all this. Businesses being affected, stores, et cetera. That's got to have an impact on that community.

LEMON: It certainly does. I mean, right where we are, there is a subway shop, and I spoke to the owner and his wife. They are very nice, and they are avid CNN watchers. Tell everyone, you know, Michaela, everyone, Anderson, we love you guys. We watch you all the time. And they are interested in telling us telling their story, and they have been extremely kind to us.

But they said to us, you know what? We are losing money hand over fist because of what's going on here. People are afraid. My normal lunchtime crowd is not coming in. Many of them are not going to work.

Yeah, it's horrible what people have to deal with, but it's an impact on the entire community, not just the part of the city and the people who are in the immediate zone where Michael Brown lost his life but the entire city.

It's really -- it's a lose-lose situation for everyone, Michaela.

PEREIRA: Maybe some of those business leaders will add their voices to the din calling for justice, for a speedy investigation and a thorough investigation/ Don Lemon, great work on the ground for us. Keep us posted on things that are happening there, and of course, stay safe, OK?

LEMON: All right, thank you.

PEREIRA: Michael Brown's parents -- no problem, love.

Michael Brown's parents appeared on NBC's "Today" show this morning. They were asked what they thought could possibly bring peace to the streets of Ferguson. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MOTHER OF SLAIN TEEN: Justice. Justice will bring peace, I believe.

MATT LAUER, NBC'S "TODAY" SHOW HOST: Only if that justice results in the arrest or charges being filed against Officer Wilson, is that what it's going to take?

MCSPADDEN: Yes, him being arrested, charges being filed, and a prosecution, him being held accountable for what he did.

LAUER: Mr. Brown, do you have faith in the system, in this matter?

MICHAEL BROWN, SR., FATHER OF SLAIN TEEN: Yes, I do.

LAUER: Do you think it's worked so far?

BROWN: No.

LAUER: So what gives you the faith that it will work eventually?

BROWN: Eventually, justice will prevail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Important thing to note, Mike Brown's father still has faith in the system. His parents also told Matt Lauer that they don't have enough answers as to what happened or why their son was shot.

Now someone who knows the Brown family's grief all too well is Sybrina Fulton. She is Trayvon Martin's mother. She's written a really moving open letter to the Brown family.

I had a chance to speak to Sybrina Fulton about that letter and the message she hopes to get across.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: I found my support through my faith, my family, and my friends, and I keep holding on to them because I know they have been there, they are still there and that's all I have. All I have is my faith.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PEREIRA: We'll bring you more of my conversation with Trayvon mother's -- Trayvon Martin's mother, ahead @THISHOUR.

Also, these tense days and violent nights, people around the world are watching. Their eyes are on what's happening in Ferguson, Missouri.

Up next, what community leaders there on the ground can do to keep the peace.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FULTON: I think that it needs to be organized, whether it's the National Action Network, the NAACP or the Urban League or just community leaders or pastors in that area. But they definitely need to organize and let the people know their plan of action.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Once again, that was Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon Martin's mother. You'll hear more from her ahead @ THS HOUR.

Right now thought I want to turn and talk about how the community is dealing with everything that's going on in Ferguson. And perhaps as Sybrina Fulton mentioned, how their community leaders can assist in that effort.

I'm joined now by Lewis Reed. He's president of the St. Louis Board of Aldermen. Mr. Reed, really a pleasure to have you with us @THISHOUR. I know this is a very concerning time for your community.

LEWIS REED, PRESIDENT, ST. LOUIS BOARD OF ALDERMEN: Thanks for having me, also, Michaela, and it is a very tough time for our community, but also for the entire United States of America.

PEREIRA: Absolutely.

REED: Because I think what's happening here within our community has broad-reaching implications all across America.

PEREIRA: I was very moved, Mr. Reed, by the images I saw from over night before things went sideways, if you will. City leaders, community leaders, church leaders, linking arms and trying to show a sign of support for the protesters and also calling for calm and urging calm, trying to ask some of those outside agitators to cool their jets if you will and to come in peace. I want to ask you about that effort and how can you address those outside agitators on the ground?

REED: You know, these outside agitators are taking the focus away from what is at hand here and what we need to achieve, and at the end of the day we need to achieve justice for Mike Brown. The parents have been very clear about the fact that they do not support the looting and some of the other things that have begun to happen around, you know, this effort to move for justice for Mike Brown. Part of what I think can happen, that needs to happen, to begin to

turn some of this around is that the public, or the peaceful protesters, need to see some movement. What I've begun to hear from a number of the residents that live in Ferguson, they have said, hey, we pay taxes in this city, and why should our taxes go to pay for the salary for this officer who is still being paid. They would like to see this officer arrested.

PEREIRA: That is one thing that there is a call for there. I think it's really crucial, and I think this is something that you've said as well, for the community leaders there to bridge the gap between the protesters and police. Do you have any tangible ideas about maybe how that can be achieved?

REED: Well, the first thing that I think we need to do, we need to begin to have some sessions or meetings between some of the leaders or the organizers on the protesters side and the police department. But not just these one-off meetings where they meet today and they don't talk for the next week or so. We need daily, daily meetings, daily updates. We can even do it by conference calls, we can do it by breakfast meetings, where we have them come together.

I think it's also important to have the officers intermixed and mingling with the crowd during the peaceful protests. We saw how big of a difference that made the day Ron Johnson was appointed to head up the whole effort. It made a difference when he came out and marched with the protesters.

PEREIRA: But, sir, I have to wonder, are there organizers, is this a concerted organized effort, the protesters that are coming out at night? Remember, they are of a different generation than you and I, I am sensing. These are younger people, they may or may not be using social media to sort of gather a ground swell. They may be just going word of mouth. We're not dealing with folks who are necessarily conference call, conference room type folks.

REED: Yes. When I was talking about the conference calls, I meant some of the peaceful protesters --

PEREIRA: Sure.

REED: That -- that have been working to bridge the gap between the peaceful protesters and some of these outside agitators and some of these young people that are coming there at night, so we can work to figure out how to create stronger linkages to some of the younger people that are out there.

For the outside agitators, I think we need to handle those on a person-by-person basis. It's virtually impossible to get our arms around all of that. We have people coming in from all over the place, from Texas, I think people have been arrested from Texas and all over the place coming in here. And I think the only way you get to the bottom of that, number one, I think the word needs to go out across the nation that this is not something that St. Louis and Ferguson wants to see. This is not something that the parents want to see. This is not something that I and the leaders and community people out there, we don't want to see this. We don't want to see this, we don't want to see the looting and crime.

PEREIRA: Mr. Reed, I think the one thing we'll all agree on is once calm is restored there, there is a greater conversation that needs to be had in our nation about the underlying issues of what's going on in Ferguson.

Mr. Reed, thank you so much for joining us, an Alderman there from St. Louis County. We appreciate it. Keep up the great work sir, hopefully calm will be restored soon.

Ahead @THISHOUR, anger against police runs deep in many cities in America, especially when it comes to how they handle African- Americans, from racial profiling to what some say is excessive force. I am going to speak with two men who feel quite differently about the issue. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Anger toward police isn't necessarily limited, rather, to just Ferguson, Missouri, where unarmed teenager, Mike Brown, was shot by a police officer. We also know a protest that's schedule in New York City this weekend in response to an incident we told you about here on our air. A man died in police custody after being put in an officer's choke hold. He was being arrested on suspicion of selling cigarettes.

Joining me now is Jarvis DeBerry, editorial writer for New Orleans' award-winning "Times-Picayune". Thanks so much for joining us. Former civil rights leader Joe Hicks is joining me from my former city, Los Angeles. I hope you are staying cool out there.

Gentlemen, thank you so much. I hope we can have a substantive conversation about this. I know that you might have different feelings so lets see if we can get this through with a modicum of, I don't know, calm. Jarvis, let me start with you. I'm curious about how much of a role, how big of a role you think race plays in anger toward police departments and police officers around the country?

JARVIS DEBERRY, EDITORIAL WRITER, TIMES-PICAYUNE: Well, at least in New Orleans, it plays a major, major part. Department of justice report released in 2011 said that the New Orleans police department in particular routinely stopped people with no cause. That the officers here had no real appreciation for the constitution and what the parameters were for stopping them. And that is backed up by anecdotes of a lot of people just being routinely harassed, stopped, searched, with nothing to actually cause suspicion. So when that happens over and over again and nobody is doing anything about it, I think the anger just builds, and builds, and builds.

PEREIRA: Joe, we've had a chance to read and do some research on your stance of things, and you've argued that police departments are not inherently racist. That it makes sense why they disproportionately target blacks. Speak to that.

JOE HICKS, VICE PRESIDENT, COMMUNITY ADVOCATES INC.: Well, first of all, illegal police behavior has to be stopped and curtailed and that's clear. You can't let cops run around do things that are unconstitutional or mistreat people in communities. On the other hand, if you look at the FBI crime files, it's clear that blacks do commit a disproportionate amount of crime in this country. That's a hard fact that many people don't want to own up to.

So I think we have to look at that and understand why many black communities, or areas that are predominantly black, do draw a great deal of police attention because there's a great deal of crime, in many cases gang and drug activity taking place there. So of course more activity takes place there. So we have to look at all these things and not automatically condemn police as being, almost 1940 terms, we've got a bunch of white bigots running around in uniform. That's not the case today, and it's somewhat of a slander to portray police in that kind of light, I think.

PEREIRA: Joe, I can't speak to what the crime rate is among African- Americans in Ferguson or in St. Louis, but we are -- one of the things that has to come to light is we're talking about a town that by most estimates is about 2/3 black. Only 3 of the town's 53 police officers are black, and we've been told of a long history of mistrust. Citizens report being harassed by police at minor traffic stops or offenses. If there is this kind of distrust in Ferguson, is that not then a racial issue in and of itself within that community, Joe?

HICKS: Well, I think we have to look at the number of police, black police that are on that force and ask, so then why does that exist? Have blacks applied and been turned away? Is it discrimination that's causing them not to be hired for the jobs? If that's the case, then now you've got a case that you can make against discrimination in Ferguson. If that's not the case, you can simply say maybe there aren't many blacks that are applying.

The turnout rate in elections has been abysmal there in Ferguson. How do you get participation increased in a town like that? Here's a major point that I think Mr. DeBerry might agree with me, I don't know. I think one of the things that we have to start doing is saying we need to have facts, and right now there aren't a terrible amount of facts. We know the autopsy report. We know a few other things. But we got a lot of people running around making comments about what's going on in Ferguson without the benefit of any real facts. That's unfair.

PEREIRA: I will give you that, Joe, is that there's a lot of emotion running around. Jarvis, please, respond.

DEBERRY: I would respond to that by saying, we do have plenty of facts to know that the police routinely stop and harass people. The Department of Justice report that I mentioned said that the arrest rates here in New Orleans cannot be attributed to the rates to which people commit crime.

In 2009, for example, the police in New Orleans arrested 500 young black boys for crimes and eight white ones. That's the 62.5 times difference. So that's not about the rate at which people commit crime, and that is a fact. And so, yes, there are some things that we don't yet know about what happened in the Michael Brown case, but what we do know is that the police routinely stop and harass people, black people, for no cause.

PEREIRA: Jarvis, you know, I think all of us are frustrated, and I think we're looking for solutions and we're looking to answers, both in the micro and macro level. I know also that police departments around the country have for some time been working to increase recruitment of brown and black officers, male and female.