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Protestors Continue in Ferguson; Grand Jury May Start Wednesday; Uproar Over St. Louis Prosecutor

Aired August 19, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: It's hard to understand that people are coming in from other cities and they are, according to police, they are committing crime, but for what purpose? Is it because of Michael Brown? Is it part of their own agenda? What is it?

VALARIE BELL, SON WAS KILLED BY NYPD: They have their own agenda.

WILLIAM BELL, SON WAS KILLED BY NYPD: They have their own agenda. That's the way I look at it. Because you come from a different city, you go in there and stealing and looting and shooting, and you know, creating chaos. There's no reason for that because, you know, this man is gone -- this young man. And it's sad to say it's a sad situation. We all understand that. We understand you are hurting.

That part we do understand because we lived through it and we're still living through it. We understand that pain but the pain is not going to help if you are going to start tearing your city apart. It's only going to make it worse.

COSTELLO: Valarie, I want to read you part of an open letter to Michael Brown's mother. It was written by Trayvon Martin's mother. She said quote, "We will bond. Continue our fights for justice and make them remember our children in an appropriate light. I would hate to think that our lawmakers and leaders would need to lose a child before protecting the rest of them." How do you find the courage to keep fighting when this sort of thing continues?

V. BELL: The courage to keep fighting is to have your family and friends around you when you need them, through prayer, which we pray that all do have a praying life. That's the courage that keeps me, the memory of your child that keeps me. Hold tight to that. Remember the good, the bad, the ugly. Just remember him or her. That really keeps me going.

COSTELLO: Do you think William that this is the tipping point in Ferguson? Do you think that at least we'll be able to have an open conversation and something will be changed?

W. BELL: I don't know. I'm going to be honest. I really don't know. I hope it hadn't come to this point. That's the whole thing about it because many kids had been killed before him. They should have done something about it a long time ago. Like I say, even with my son -- the young men that killed my son, they should have went to jail. I'm sorry. I believe in that because if they went to jail, I don't think Ferguson probably wouldn't be killed -- a lot of others would not be killed. So you got to look at it that way. It should have started a long time ago with justice. It should have just started then because it's out of control. I know it is. We all do.

COSTELLO: Well, you know -- and I'll ask you the same question, Valarie. Is Ferguson the tipping point because the whole nation is paying attention? There are people going to Ferguson to protest. Everybody is talking about this all over the world. What's different about this case than the others, do you think?

V. BELL: The looting and the rioting and the violence is really the most difference between the other things that had happened over the years. I don't know why they're doing it but like Mr. Bell said they have their own agenda. And people from other states going and should be helping them, should be persuading and talking to them about peace and just let the family get a peace of mind to make time to bury their son.

COSTELLO: William, Valarie Bell, thank you so much for coming in and talking to me. I know it was difficult. I really appreciate it. I do.

V. BELL: Thank you for having us.

W. BELL: Thank you.

COSTELLO: I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everyone. Don Lemon live here in Ferguson, Missouri. We're going to get back to our Carol Costello in just a moment.

But I want to have a discussion now. The first line of the Langston Hughes poem called "Harlem" had asked this question. "What happens to a dream deferred?" It addresses one of the most common themes in the African-American community about difficulties pursuing and achieving the American dream. And in his latest column, my next guest, Mr. Charles Blow, he wonders with all that has happened the past week in Ferguson if the dreaming is now futile.

A new poll released by the Pew Research Centers shows a nearly 2-to-1 margin that blacks believe the Michael Brown shooting brings underlying racial issues to the forefront than their white counterparts.

Joining me now is Charles Blow, he is a "New York Times" columnist and a CNN political commentator. He is live now in New York. And Charles we were on the air last night witnessing what was going on here in Ferguson. And I know you have some very strong ideas about what you're witnessing but also the underlying issue here.

Let's talk about -- can I give a quote first? And then we talk about it?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely.

LEMON: It's from your column. You said what happens to a dream deferred and you were talking about Langston Hughes here. And you said, here's what I think is interesting. You said, "The discussion about issues in the black community too often revolves around a false choice, systematic racial bias or poor personal choices. In fact, these factors are interwoven like the fingers of clasped hands. People make choices within the context of their circumstances and those circumstances are affected sometimes severely by bias."

Brilliant point -- explain what you mean by that.

BLOW: Well, that it's not a binary choice -- right. You can't simply say well most of this problem is just about racial attitudes about black people and that is all that's happening. Or you can't simply say that, oh, most black people who have problems are just simply making the wrong choices.

People make choices in the context of their circumstances and what we have -- you see young people now, anybody who is 45, 50 years old or younger never experienced the civil rights movement. They have, however, experienced crack epidemic. They have experienced the explosion of gang violence and then it's kind of dwindling. They have experienced mass incarceration in America, an explosion of mass incarceration in America. They have experience a whole plethora of issues that impact how decisions are made.

Some people would also like to lump into that they have experienced kind of a fraying of the black family. I like to put that into some context though when people say 70, whatever percent of black children are born to single parents. That trend is going in the same direction for every race of people -- that is an American trend. It's just that black people are out in front on that particular trend. You can say that is good or bad -- whatever you want to say.

I look at all of that in a context and I look at these young people who are dealing with these sorts of issues which are very systemic. These are not necessarily legislated, not articulated biases, not written into laws, but they are biases nonetheless and they feel them. You can't tell a person --

LEMON: Charles.

BLOW: Yes, go ahead.

LEMON: You can't ignore that fact and the fact that it is happening and I don't think you are saying that ok it's happening. You are not telling us to ignore that but the question is how do you address that? Because those numbers that you are giving are true, how do you address it and be real about it and not offer excuses?

BLOW: Excuses for what -- I'm sorry -- which one of those points? The family? LEMON: I'm talking about excuses for everyone and not just -- you said this is an American issue and I mean not offering excuses to white people, black people, Hispanic people, how do you get everyone to understand in context what is going on and what is the way out?

BLOW: That's a big burden, right. And people are trying to nibble at that as best they can. Trying to figure out where you break into this cycle that feeds back on itself and where do you start to wither away at that circle. I'm not exactly sure where you do that. But I do think that it requires some level of empathy where you can put yourself in the position of another person. You can say I can put myself into the position of a person who may be experiencing extreme levels of bias and are rejecting those levels of bias.

I can also conversely put myself in a position of a person who is being inundated with stereotypes about people who look like me and understand how they could come away from those -- being inundated with those stereotype looking at me as if I am a problem in of myself not knowing anything about me.

I think once we start to see how another person can experience you then we begin to understand how that person is feeling in the experience. If we don't get the point we can do that, then I think we can't even start to have conversations around this subject.

LEMON: Charles, it's a very important subject and I really appreciate your perspective and I love the article, the latest article that you wrote.

BLOW: Thank you.

LEMON: I thank you for joining us and I want to tell our viewers that we're going to have much more of this discussion tonight at 10:00 p.m. here on CNN, where we will have a town hall on race. Also, what it is like to raise children, especially black children, in this particular area -- era, in this particular environment.

So make sure you join us. It's going to be a live audience. We're going to take your questions tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN on "CNN TONIGHT", the program that I host.

And still to come on this program: pushback against a prosecutor. On line campaigns grow for recusal in the Michael Brown case.

Special edition of the NEWSROOM continues right after this with Carol Costello.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: A grand jury could begin hearing testimony as early as tomorrow in the police shooting death of Michael Brown. But a movement is growing to keep the case out of the hands of St. Louis prosecutor Robert McCulloch. More than 26,000 people have signed a petition calling for an independent prosecutor saying McCulloch cannot be impartial. While not addressing the recusal movement, McCulloch he did speak a few days ago about the initial police response to the Ferguson protest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was the police response excessive in Ferguson?

ROBERT MCCULLOCH, PROSECUTOR: No, I don't think it was excessive at all. Everybody was affected for blocks around by the tear gas, but no serious injuries to the protesters who are out there, to the law enforcement to the residents in the area. I think that's something that kind of gets lost in the shuffle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Now, the county prosecutors office did release a statement to CNN this morning and I'm quoting here, Mr. McCulloch has been the elected prosecutor in St. Louis County since 1991. He's been re- elected every four years by an overwhelming majority of St. Louis County. The people have faith in Mr. McCulloch and he will continue to do his duties.

Joining me now Missouri state senator, Jamilah Nasheed and CNN's Jean Casarez. Welcome to both of you.

JAMILAH NASHEED, MISSOURI STATE SENATOR: Thank you.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thanks for having us.

COSTELLO: Senator -- thank you for being here. Senator I want to start with you because you are calling for a special prosecutor to be assigned. Tell us why.

NASHEED: First and foremost, Bob McCulloch if you are listening, it is incumbent for you to step up and do the right thing and voluntarily recuse yourself from this investigation. The people and the African- American community, they do not have the confidence that you would be fair and impartial. You are unbiased due to the fact that you have a close relationship with the police department out here in Ferguson and St. Louis County.

We have seen time and time again you working against the interests of those that have been indicted by the police department here.

COSTELLO: And Senator, I want to get into specific criticism that you have against Robert McCulloch. In 1964 when McCulloch was 12 years old, his father, a police officer, was shot and killed in a gun fight with a black kidnapper. He would refer to that incident in 1991 when he campaigned and was first elected as prosecutor. In 2000, he did not bring charges against two police officers in the shooting death of -- in the shooting rather of two unarmed African-American men who were drug suspects. McCulloch supporters though would say that these incidents should have no bearing on the Michael Brown case. Why do you disagree?

NASHEED: I disagree because I truly believe that it will cloud his judgment. He doesn't have the fortitude to do the right thing when it comes to prosecuting police officers. His cousin is a police officer. His mother works for the police department. His uncle is a police officer, and, again, we think that his judgment will be clogged as a result of all of those occurrences.

COSTELLO: Ok, I want to turn to Jean Casarez because you've been talking to the prosecutor's office. What have they told you about? They might convene this grand jury as soon as tomorrow which is fairly quickly.

Paul Callan had the thought that was on purpose because the prosecutor wants to keep control of this case.

CASAREZ: They wouldn't confirm with me that they are going to start to hear evidence at the grand jury. They are trying to get the witnesses together. They also told me that there's no timeline in all of this, so it's not how fast they can do it that they would just be getting started.

They will be using all of the evidence that they have at this point they told me before the grand jury. The grand jury has twelve citizens of the community. Nine have to believe that there is probable cause that a crime was committed, but here's the fascinating thing.

The officer himself can testify before the grand jury. That's what I learned yesterday and every state is different, and in Missouri, they are able to do that. Their attorney cannot be present in the room, but if the officer, Darren Wilson, takes the stand before the grand jury and testifies, what impact will that have? It's very interesting to think about.

COSTELLO: I know you are going to come back and join us tomorrow to talk more just in case the grand jury is convened tomorrow. And state senator Jamilah Nasheed thank you so much for being with me. I appreciate it. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right. I realize the news has been heavy for the last couple of days. So let's lighten things up a bit shall we -- with some video you have to see. A man found out the hard way that it's easier getting into a baby's high chair than getting out.

Who else would have this story but Jeanne Moos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Rock-a-bye baby in the high chair. That's an awfully big baby. That's a fully grown adult stuck in a high chair in a travel lodge lobby in Cambridge, England. It may look like his buddy is giving him the Heimlich, but the only choking is from laughter.

They tried dragging him by his feet. Darryn tried slipping out from under the table top.

Pardon me if I don't sit down. Two things you don't see in the video. One is how Darryn got into the high chair and more importantly how he got out. Darryn's friend John Henshaw (ph) who shot some of this video tells CNN he and his buddies put Darryn in the high chair. You know what they always say about high chair safety?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Strap your child in.

MOOS: Darryn didn't need a strap. He considered cutting his way out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what -- I need a saw.

MOOS: In desperation, he even took off his jeans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no one wants to see that.

MOOS: The funny thing is that once he gets his pants off, he really looks like he belonged in that high chair. It's that diapered look that does it.

Because the video ends with Darryn still stuck, viewers were left in limbo. Wait. How does it end? Darryn was finally rescued when his friends dismantled the high chair using a set of keys. Get that guy a bottle and put on a bib. At least he was no cry baby, though he did slap the table and whine once.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Man, we should have rated that PG. Thanks for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)