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Interview with Capt. Ron Johnson, Missouri Highway Patrol; Officer-Involved Shooting in St. Louis; Will Grand Jury Indict Officer in Brown Shooting; Multiple Journalists Arrested in Ferguson; Civil Rights Generational Divide Exposed in Ferguson

Aired August 19, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAPT. RON JOHNSON, CHIEF, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: Yes. This morning I was watching the local news station and I saw three troopers down underneath picking up glass from one of the business owners. I saw St. Louis County police officers talking to residents, helping residents pick up trash. Last night we had officers screaming for help because they were coming under fire and I looked at the faces of my officers and said, please send help. Please send help. They are getting a bad rap. A lot of their friends live here and we just want everybody to have peace in this neighborhood. And that's all that we want. That's why we are here. Why we're here is for peace. We want justice to make sure our system is about justice for all.

DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You were very transparent. You said in the initial hours that you took over, you said you didn't want any confrontation and you were going to allow people to protest, and that evolved into rioting. You said you have friends in the community who are business owners, fellow police officers who wouldn't even look at you or speak to you now because they felt that their businesses, their homes were not protected. Is that accurate?

JOHNSON: Yes. And I spoke to a business owner whose business has been robbed twice. He said, you've got to do more. I know what people are telling you, but you are doing the right thing. You have to do more. I said, I give you my promise we're going to do everything we can. He's been a business owner for 20 years and he does not know if he can sustain it and he does not know if he's going to have anything to return to when it's done.

LEMON: You come from this community?

JOHNSON: Yes.

LEMON: You've dealt with profiling, discrimination. You have children. Members of your family have done the same thing. People will say because of the frustration in the community and the years and years of discrimination and being treated as if they are less than humans, that people are going to erupt and it's going to erupt in this situation. What do you say to that? Is that an excuse for the violence and looting?

JOHNSON: It's not. The protesters are making that statement. The criminals are hurting the protesters who own businesses. The protesters who own businesses in here, the criminals are hurting them. You know, everybody has talked about we've opened up a wound. We haven't opened up a wound. We haven't closed a wound. We have not closed it. We haven't reopened a wound here. Michael Brown didn't open up a wound. The wound was open.

LEMON: Outside agitators, there's been so much talk about that, everybody involved in the violence or inciting the violence. Is it outsiders?

JOHNSON: There are some outsiders but there are a lot of people that live here and are from other neighborhoods here to here. So we can't blame that on just outside agitators. Yes, there are some. But many of them live right here in Missouri.

LEMON: Yeah. Let's be real. You hear people saying, you know, we're pissed off at the police, calling people words like sellout because you want peace. I'm sure you have heard that.

JOHNSON: I've heard it, yeah. And that is untrue. I wear this uniform but this defines me at a low level. I'm a man first, a black man second. I'm a husband, a father. I'm a son, a trooper. There's a lot of things I am before I am a trooper. But one thing I am is an honest man and I will stand for what is right. And even if this uniform is wrong, I'll tell you we are wrong. But if we're right, I'm going to tell you we are right.

LEMON: What about tonight?

JOHNSON: Tonight, we're going to approach tonight as tonight. We expect peace and that's the way that we're going to approach it. I have no predetermined outlook on tonight. I hope for a positive outlook, and like I've wanted since Thursday. And Thursday, we had a positive outlook. Dynamics changed. And hopefully, we can get back to that. But the people want this. And when I talk about the people, I'm not talking about the criminals. The people want peace.

LEMON: Are you embarrassed at all by any of this?

JOHNSON: Yeah. I think everybody that's a great citizen of this community, the great citizens of the state and great citizens of the nation are embarrassed. Yeah.

LEMON: Are you still married?

JOHNSON: Yes.

(LAUGHER)

LEMON: Because we understand your wife was not happy with you.

JOHNSON: She was not happy with me last night and I knew that when I drove home and the lights were still on in the house that she was going to be up. And when I walked in, she expressed her concern for me being out on the front lines without my vest yesterday. But I told her that the dynamics changed so quick that I did not have it, but I told her I would have it close by so she can get some sleep and not have to yell at me when she gets home. LEMON: As you have the opportunity here, and each moment, what do you

say to the people who are listening, the citizens abiding by the law, those who are not, the protesters, the agitators, as you would say? What is your message to them?

JOHNSON: To the people that are law abiding, we will get through this. To the agitators, you will not defeat us.

LEMON: Thank you, Captain.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

LEMON: Appreciate it.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

LEMON: Best of luck this evening. The whole world is watching.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

LEMON: All right. Brooke, I'm going to send it back to you in New York.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Don Lemon, thank you so much.

Captain, thank you for spending a bunch of minutes with us just walking us through what it's like there, the frustration, the embarrassment.

I appreciate both of you.

As we continue our coverage out of Ferguson, one of the questions is, if this officer, Darren Wilson, is indicted, what could be the biggest piece of evidence against him?

Plus, why the secrecy of the grand jury proceedings could spark even more outrage -- speaking of protests with the captain there -- more outrage on the streets of Ferguson.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We'll take you back to Ferguson in just a moment, but these are live aerial images of an area that is three miles from that burned-down area in Ferguson. You can see all of these people. The reason is we are now hearing about an officer-involved shooting in the St. Louis area. According to the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department, no officers have been injured but a male subject has been pronounced dead here in the St. Louis area. Just another example of tensions. Tensions are rising in this part of the country.

Now, the parents of Michael Brown, the 18-year-old unarmed teenager who was shot and killed 10 days ago, they believe one thing can quiet the chaos in their hometown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MOTHER OF MICHAEL BROWN: Justice. Justice will bring peace, I believe.

MATT LAUER, CO-HOST, THE TODAY SHOW: Only if that justice results in the arrest or charges being filed against Officer Wilson, is that what it's going to take?

MCSPADDEN: Yes. Him being arrested, charges being filed and a prosecution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: But will an arrest happen? A grand jury could begin to hear testimony as early as tomorrow. Prosecutor Robert McCulloch told the "Wall Street Journal" this, quoting, "Absolutely everything will be presented to the grand jury, every scrap of paper that we have, every photograph that was taken."

What if the grand jury still does not indict?

Let me bring in our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, to walk us through, first and foremost, how will a grand jury happen? How does the grand jury work?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Most people don't know this.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: It's very different from a trial jury. First of all, it's just the prosecutor, the witness, and the grand jurors, usually 23 people, although attendance is not always perfect. It doesn't have to be.

BALDWIN: OK.

TOOBIN: There's no judge. So the prosecutor really runs the show in a grand jury. The prosecutor asks questions. Often the grand jurors themselves are allowed to ask questions.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: There are effectively to rules of evidence. Hearsay is admissible. It's a much more formal process than a trial.

At the end of the grand jury investigation, the prosecution says, we request that you find probable cause, not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, probable cause that the following crimes took place. Please vote this indictment. It doesn't have to be unanimous, unlike a trial jury. It's just a majority of the grand jury can vote for an indictment.

BALDWIN: And that's when one could see a charge against this officer?

TOOBIN: Correct. It will only happen if a majority of the grand jury votes to --

BALDWIN: OK.

TOOBIN: However, that's how it works on paper. In the real world, prosecutors control grand juries very closely.

BALDWIN: That's why people are calling for the prosecutor, Robert McCulloch, to recuse himself.

And let me explain this to all of you. A Missouri State Senator spoke to CNN about why he should give up the case. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE SEN. JAMIAH NASHEED, (D), MISSOURI: Voluntarily recuse yourself from this investigation. The people and the African-American community, they do not have the confidence that you would be fair and impartial.

He doesn't have the fortitude to do the right thing when it comes to prosecuting police officers. His cousin is a police officer. His mother works for the police department. His uncle was a police officer. And, again, we think that his judgment would be clouded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: She questions his judgment, Jeff Toobin. There's also the other issue people are bringing up, that when he was a little boy, his father was killed by an African-American man. People say he should walk away.

TOOBIN: This is always a difficult thing because prosecutors and police officers, in general, work together. They are partners. When I was an assistant U.S. attorney, FBI agents are the people I worked with every day, even more than my fellow prosecutors. That's what makes investigating the police very dicey. And it often happens, not always, but that regular prosecutors recuse themselves. You know, I frankly don't know enough about this situation to say whether it's appropriate for him to recuse himself but you can certainly see why calls to this effect would be made.

BALDWIN: Let's hear his response. His office says that this, "Mr. McCulloch has been the prosecuting attorney in St. Louis County since 1991. He has been re-elected every four years by an overwhelming majority of St. Louis County. The people have faith in Mr. McCulloch and he will continue to do his duties."

Jeff Toobin, thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Appreciate it very much.

And next on CNN, as more journalists are getting arrested in Ferguson, is the presence of the media provoking the situation? Or what wouldn't you see if the cameras weren't around? We'll answer that question next.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: As you've been watching coverage out of Ferguson, Missouri, it's not just protesters winding up on the wrong side of the tear gas canisters, it's also journalists. Six members of the press were arrested on Monday, including a photographer from Getty, a news photo service. I want you to notice how this man's camera is right by Scott Olson's handcuffs. See right there? Olson was released without charges. And authorities in Ferguson arrested 11 journalists since the town's uprising began.

Joining me now is CNN senior media correspondent, host of CNN's "Reliable Sources," Brian Stelter.

So do you think the presence of the media, the presence of cameras further provokes the protesters, further provokes the police?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT & HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: Observing something changes the thing being observed. That's perhaps true at any time. But to me the benefit of the journalists being there, being the eyes and ears greatly outweighs whatever trouble it might cause. Sure, a few people who may be attracted by the cameras, might want to show off for the cameras but, more importantly, there are so many more are there just trying to protest peacefully. And we need to be there so their voices are heard much more loudly than they otherwise would be.

BALDWIN: People could argue, as you are, that maybe it's exacerbating the protest situation but at the same time they are there to keep their eye on police.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: That as well. I thought it was so telling over the weekend, there was a press conference at one point where a citizen spoke up and they were asking questions about where the press is going to be allowed to go because they wanted to make sure that the press could observe behavior between the police and protesters. We have talked about that in the past, in other countries, how important it is to have journalists observing protesters in other parts of the country. It's also important here in the U.S. It was true during the Occupy movement a few years ago, and it was also true when Cliven Bundy supporters rallied at his ranch earlier this year, and it's true now.

BALDWIN: Brian, thank you, sir.

STELTER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Back to our breaking news out of Ferguson, who is leading the protest there. My next guess says it is definitely not Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. Who is?

Plus, President Obama says he wants to work on changing the perception of and the reality of young black men in America. We'll go deeper into that, on what those perceptions are and what's reality, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: As we watch the unrest unfold in Ferguson, who is leading the protests and leading the community? We saw Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton marching there. But they are no the political minds behind these demonstrations. That vacuum has brought other names thrown into the spotlight, rapper and St. Louis native, Nelly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NELLY, RAPPER: That's over. We've got plenty of options. You can't say you can't have options. You've got plenty of options. Regardless to the facts and a lot of people may think there are more young brothers in jail than in college, that is a lie. That is a lie.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Nelly was there in Ferguson. He's not the only hip-hop artist that's been vocal about what's happening there, the politics behind it. Another rapper who said he's going to Ferguson tweeted this: "If you, as a celebrity, wait for CNN and FOX to talk about problems in our community before you do, then you are part of the problem." And this from Public Enemy's Chuck Dees (ph) saying, "I hear people criticize Reverend Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, but young movements need to take notes and not freestyle rebellion. Learn and build, then move."

Has the Ferguson unrest exposed the civil rights generational divide?

Tufts University history professor and "The Root" contributing editor, Peniel Joseph, says, "Many voiceless black youth are not identifying with the civil rights leader of old."

Peniel, welcome. Nice to have you on.

PENIEL JOSEPH, HISTORY PROFESSOR, TUFTS UNIVERSITY & CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, THE ROOT: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: I read your piece in "The Root." Question number one, if they are not listening to the Jesse Jackson or Al Sharptons, who is leading the younger generation?

JOSEPH: I think they are leading themselves, Brooke. I think when we're looking at Ferguson, I'm specifically referring to those folks who have been throwing Molotov cocktails, who have been very disgruntled and have not been committed to nonviolence. They do not listen to messages from people like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. This is more saying that there's a generational division because these are folks part of America's racial underclass who have been disenfranchised and have had terrible treatment from the criminal justice system and the police and are on the margins of both the mainstream of African-Americans and understand that something is terribly wrong when a young man gets shot in the streets of an American city.

BALDWIN: Who is the leader? A lot of these young people, they don't remember. They were not around for the civil rights movement. Shouldn't they have someone to help them rise up? JOSEPH: Well, yeah. There's local leadership in Ferguson and young

and there's local civil rights leaders, and young and middle-age and older peoples who are having cross-racial, cross-generational solidarity. But what I'm talking about specifically in that piece are the folks who are unconstrained and unrestrained.

BALDWIN: Got it.

JOSEPH: These are the folks who are waiting to face tear gas to get their point across. And they are also being told by the civil rights movement that progress has been made, Barack Obama is president, and you have all of these options, but they live in segregated America, Brooke. Ferguson might as well be 1950 St. Louis or Ferguson or any southern city. It's 50 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act but these are students who are going to schools that have lost accreditation, including Michael Brown. There's a 22 percent poverty rate. There's a low rate of political activity. And that is because these are folks living on the margin and when you're living on the margin, this --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Well, let me --

(CROSSTALK)

JOSEPH: The success of somebody like Barack Obama --

BALDWIN: Go ahead.

JOSEPH: The success of somebody like Barack Obama or Lebron James or Beyonce or Jay-Z does not trickle down to these poor people.

BALDWIN: You brought up the president. Let me quote him because I want to hear what you think this means: The president said he understands the passions and anger in the community and he says he's "personally committed to changing the perception and reality of the young men of color."

JOSEPH: Yeah.

BALDWIN: What is the perception? What is the reality?

JOSEPH: Well, I think the perception is that young men of color are violent, are criminal and deserve to be meted out with vigilante on the streets of American cities. We saw that with the hyper- militarization of not just the National Guard but the local Ferguson P.D. That's the perception. Whether a young man is in a suit and tie or wearing a baseball cap and baggy jeans, the perception is that that young man is dangerous.

The reality is that, of course, there are African-Americans are succeeding in college, who are in business, who are in higher education, all walks of American life. But that's not the reality for young, poor black men and women. My Brother's Keeper, the president's initiative -- BALDWIN: Yes.

JOSEPH: -- is really important but it's really a drop in a bucket. We would need, Brooke, billions of dollars in urban renewal that connect our crisis in public education, unemployment in our criminal justice reform crisis all together to create thriving communities.

And one thing I'll add, what we've seen on the streets of Ferguson is huge racial resentment that really recalls the civil rights' movement where there was unfettered racial resentment between black and white and there was no talk of a dialogue, no talk of racial and economic justice. We cannot substitute law and order for social and political justice that are really at the roots of the crisis in Ferguson.

BALDWIN: Peniel, I want you to come back because I want to keep the conversation going. I think you're fantastic.

Peniel Joseph, of "The Root" and also Tufts University, thank you so much.

JOSEPH: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Let me pivot though. Breaking news. There's a news conference happening right now on the officer-involved shooting we just mentioned in St. Louis where one male has died.