Return to Transcripts main page

Dr. Drew

The Death of Michael Brown: New Protests Underway

Aired August 19, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, smoke.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are just stun grenades, Don.

PINSKY: Tear gas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to walk down the street to get away from the tear gas.

PINSKY: Gunshots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are unlawfully assembled. You need to get out of the roadway.

PINSKY: What is the strife in Ferguson doing to the people in that city and in this country?

I`ll speak about 10 days of turmoil.

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Good evening. I`m coming to you from New York City.

My co-host Samantha Schacher is in Los Angeles.

And coming up, we are talking about events in Ferguson tonight.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes, that`s right, Dr. Drew. We`ll hear from people who are there in Ferguson, as well as from our own legal expert

and Dr. Drew, I`m really anxious to hear Evy explain why and how police should be using deadly force.

PINSKY: Right. Why six shots, how -- she`s been in that situation, I believe.

SCHACHER: She has.

PINSKY: I`m going to ask her that question. But, first, protest in Ferguson, Missouri, turned violent last night. I monitored CNN until 3:00

in the morning, HLN, until 3:00 in the morning last night, watching this. Two people were shot. Four officers were injured, 78 arrested.

We continue to monitor the situation closely right now. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Peaceful protests quickly unravel into pockets of violence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on. Right here. Right here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two civilians shot, four officers injured, at least 78 people arrested.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s going on there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a photographer. This is a photographer who got hit pretty badly by tear gas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did witness at least one Molotov cocktail thrown in the direction of police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are moving in.

You will see a line of people peacefully submitting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining us, Anahita Sedaghatfar, attorney, and Vanessa Barnett from HipHollywood.com, Crystal Wright from

ConservativeBlackChick.com, and I have CNN correspondent Stephanie Elam who is in Ferguson right now.

Stephanie, as dusk descends upon this town, how are things playing out?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So far, things are calm. There are definitely a lot more people out here now, Dr. Drew. When you take a

look, you can see behind me that you got people who are walking. Police are out here asking people to not stop and stand in one place. But they

keep on moving. So, you`ll see small groups of people getting together and then come and tell them to disperse a little bit.

I have seen some friendly interaction between people here in Ferguson and police officers at this time. But we`ve seen people marching. They go

up a certain way up here on the street, to the blockade, then they come back down to the blockade on the other end. So, you can see there are

plenty of people down here.

Some people handing out roses here today, saying they want it bring peace back to the community. Also a lot of people saying, you know, hands

up, don`t shoot. They`re still saying that, saying that they`re out here for Mike Brown.

I talked to one family who told me they come out during daytime. And by the time the sun goes down, they`re going back to their homes because

they think the people causing the disturbance in the evening, a lot of those people they say aren`t even from Ferguson. And so, they want it make

their voices heard. Make it known that they are upset about what happened with Mike Brown, but at the same time, get out of the way so that there

could just be these peaceful protests during the day and then clear the streets out at night.

But as you can see, there`s still a lot of people out here, but most people out here right now, there is nothing going on. It`s calm. You can

see some police officers are out there behind us, talking to people on the street, telling them to keep it moving if they are out here it march.

But overall, the scene is calm. But you can definitely tell, that there`s a lit bit of tension in the air, Dr. Drew. Everyone is waiting to

see if things turn on dime.

PINSKY: Yes, sure. Yes. And, Stephanie, I just hope it stays calm. I like the idea of making your point during the day. No good comes after

midnight, that`s for sure. Every night, that has been proven. So why stay after midnight. I`m just saying.

Thank you, Stephanie.

Anahita, how do you feel police have done handling the situation? Have they escalated it or they`ve done what they just have to do to do

their job?

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, ATTORNEY: They are doing what they have to do. I mean, anyone who`s criticizing the police presence needs to watch that

package. Look at what`s going on there.

I mean, the police -- these people have a right to protest. That`s their First Amendment right. They are allowed to be there peacefully.

But the fact is, Dr. Drew, there are people that are being violent. They are looting. They`re throwing things at cops. Molotov cocktails.

What do you expect the police to do? You want them to be dressed in tuxedos and suits and just sitting back? No. They need to be dressed in

these military clothes. They need to be with these SWAT trucks, because they have a duty to make sure that everything is in order within their

jurisdiction and they need to keep people safe.

So, I don`t understand -- any suggestion that police presence there is somehow fuelling the flames is absolutely preposterous, in my opinion.

PINSKY: Well, Crystal, I suspect you feel very much like Anahita. But it feels -- you know, the history of this country is that we have

certain freedoms to move about. And when you see our government acting out in what looks like a militaristic fashion against its own citizens, I think

all of our teeth get set on edge.

CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVEBLACKCHICK.COM: Well, I don`t know if all my teeth get set on edge, but as an America, I do like freedom and liberty.

At the time, Anahita points out a fact, the police are there to serve and protect. They`re not there to be our best friends, to have cocktails with

us.

And Captain Ron Johnson, the black St. Louis trooper who has taken over trying to help the Ferguson police manage this situation stood up, I

believe yesterday or today, and said, hey, guys, you throwing Molotov cocktails at my men will not be tolerated.

And the reason why the police are saying move, get out of the way, is because you have journalists that can be distinguished from peaceful

protesters and rioters. As you pointed out, Dr. Drew, when it hits midnight, why are you out on the streets anyway? When the police say get

out of the way, move. I do think the National Guard is overkill. Way overkill.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Well, OK, interesting. There you go. Where is that line?

And, Vanessa, on a second, Vanessa, you made the point last night, I thought that was very good, that fear seems to be one of the motivating

problems in this entire circumstance and seeing a bunch of guys with AK-47s aimed at you creates a little fear.

VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: Absolutely, and I`m glad you brought that up because I understand what Anahita is saying, but I don`t

necessarily agree, because there`s a situation where 90 percent of these protests are peaceful. So, when you come to just show support and you come

to have your voice heard and you are met with a gun in your face, that is instant fear. That is instant aggravation. And that escalates the

situation.

I know the police are there to protect and serve, but I think they are unintentionally escalating some situations. And, unfortunately, the

deplorable actions of a few are overshadowing the amazing actions of many. People are wanting answers. People are being peaceful.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Hold it. Got it, Vanessa. I`m going to hold this panel together. I`m going to bring you across the break, continue the

conversation.

One of the questions I have is the support for the officer who shot Michael Brown is beginning to grow. Is he getting support?

And later, you are part of the story. Everyone it seems is saying something on social media about the events in Ferguson. Our social media

sites are just on fire. I will share posts with you.

We are back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: I stood there and listened over the radio and heard the screams of those officers who are

under gunfire. I went back to our squad vehicle, saw the gentleman laying in the back who had been shot. I saw a car pull up and drop a gentleman

off. He had been shot in the hand, who was dazed walking down the street.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam, Anahita, Vanessa and Crystal.

And we`ve got live pictures, you`ve been looking at in a second there. They are live pictures from Ferguson tonight, as dark descends. I`ll be

checking back with Stephanie Elam in just a minute.

Now, Sam, Crystal mentioned in that last block, Captain Johnson, whom you just saw there in that little piece, he`s become somewhat of a local

celebrity, but even he cannot restore the peace. How do you think he`s been doing?

SCHACHER: I think he`s actually doing a great job. I`m glad that they had Captain Johnson step in, Dr. Drew. But, you know what, looking at

the video that you just showed before showing the raw footage, it actually rips my heart out. I do understand that he and the police are trying to do

their best job, I guess, to restore peace. But I`m looking at a community who appears to me to be voiceless and discriminated against.

And I`m afraid that this militarized action is only engulfing the flames. I get it. And I get that there`s looters. I get that there`s

Molotov cocktails. And I wish the police would somehow be able to arrest these people, who are essentially hijacking the voice of all the (AUDIO

GAP), rather than arresting these other protesters, like the 90-year-old woman that we`ve seen, the Holocaust survivor, 11 journalists.

WRIGHT: But how -- Samantha, you know, I don`t like the paternalistic view that you`re taking because the majority of the protesters and the

rioters are black. I doubt you would be saying the same thing if the majority of the protesters were white.

And this is the problem I have with this whole narrative that we have concocted, the mainstream media. The majority of the violent rioters are

black. You had a gentleman quoted in "The Washington Post" today, he said, "I`m homeless, and I came to Ferguson to get justice. If I have to do it

with violence, that`s what I`m going to do."

And when it comes to blacks and crime and white cop killing the black kid, I constantly many am disgusted by the media walking on egg shells

around the facts. Example and then I will stop talking. "The Philadelphia Daily News" decided to pull a photo of rioters looting because it painted

the black rioters in a bad light. News is about not sanitizing the news. If it was OK to release the officer`s name, Darren Wilson, it`s OK to

release video of Michael Brown before he was arrested, stealing cigarettes and roughing up a clerk.

We need to stop the political correctness. I think it is horrible that the young man was shot six times in the front. But even the examiner,

the New York examiner, who did an autopsy said, we do not have enough information to draw conclusions.

This is why blacks and whites are now hating each other in suspect. It makes me weep as a daughter of a civil rights -- my parents who lived

through segregation, it makes me want to cry. I should not hate you and judge you because you`re white.

And this is wrong what we`re doing. This is wrong.

SCHACHER: Can I respond to that? I agree with a lot of your narrative.

PINSKY: Vanessa, had a reaction and I want to get her reaction, and Sam.

Vanessa?

BARNETT: I understand where you`re coming from. And a large part of this, and we spoke about this yesterday, is moving forward, is healing, is

becoming one nation and not so --

PINSKY: Vanessa, Vanessa, Vanessa, I want to interrupt you. You seem to be getting emotional as Crystal was talking. What were you feeling?

BARNETT: I was feeling -- well, I was going to say, when she brought up the fact when they released the video, we weren`t mad about them

releasing the video. It was the timing of the video. It was very strategic and it was released in an effort --

WRIGHT: How --

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: It was a distraction because of the officer`s name. They could have released that video the first day it happened. The second day

it happened. The video doesn`t change the facts. The video could have been released at any point in time. It was a diversion against the same

day, the same time the officer`s --

WRIGHT: I disagree.

BARNETT: That has nothing to do with race.

WRIGHT: You say it was a diversion because it painted Michael Brown - -

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: But you`re saying it was a diversion because it painted Michael Brown in a bad light. And the fact is --

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: It doesn`t paint him in a bad light. It is a fact. I`m all about the facts. The fact is that is him in the video, then you can

release that video if it has it do with this case.

WRIGHT: It did.

BARNETT: But when the police officer pulled up, he had no idea that he was a suspect, one.

WRIGHT: But it showed --

BARNETT: Two, and the video did not need to be released at the same exact time that Mike --

(CROSSTALK)

WRIGHT: Wait a minute, real quick. It showed Michael Brown that night could have had a predisposition for anger because we also know there

is conflicting eyewitness testimony that says he went after Officer Wilson. Now, I`m not saying that he is right. The eyewitnesses like Darian

Johnson, the friend that was with Michael Brown, I`m not saying he`s right. I`m also not taking the side of the officer.

But there are a lot of facts here we want to gloss over when they paint Michael Brown in a bad light, just like during Trayvon Martin trial.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Hold on one second. Vanessa -- one second. Got the point. Hang on, ladies.

Sam, go ahead.

SCHACHER: Yes. I just wanted to respond to crystal. The latter part of your argument, that I hate what it is doing to all of us. I hate that

it is dividing races. I hate what I see on social media.

But I also have to agree with Vanessa, that I do think that there has been a lack of transparency when it comes to this police department in

their initial investigation. And that`s why people have this distrust.

PINSKY: Anahita, 30 seconds, then me.

SEDAGHATFAR: I`m just saying, that video is absolutely relevant to the case. It goes to the officer`s state of mind. It might potentially

corroborates his statement and what he says happened.

And I don`t like the fact that people are using this video, the release of this video, the timing of video, as another way to divide people

based on race, Dr. Drew.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: I don`t like we are being divided based on anything.

SCHACHER: Right. Me too.

PINSKY: I think we need to be very cautious about the language we use, everybody. I wish our government officials would be as sensitive as I

hope my guests and panelists will be tonight.

We need to stop using words like you and them and they. It is our problem.

The president did say something that I thought was extremely relevant last night, that we have a history. This country has a history. We have a

history. And we need to solve that together. Not by us and them. Not because of somebody who didn`t get something and somebody needs justice

against you against them. That`s divisiveness.

We need to come together with this. I agree with -- I think we all agree on just about everything on this panel, but we have very intense

feelings about it. We`ve got to put our feelings aside a little bit and stay in the solution.

Let`s bring in the behavior bureau in here next. Can they make further roads into helping us understand this, and deal with the emotions

that are being generated?

And later, social media flooded with your opinions. We will get back to that after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s bugging you? Because something is on your mind. Something is on your mind, I know.

JOHNSON: What`s on my mind is this has to stop. It has to stop. I don`t want anybody to get hurt. I don`t want an officer to get hurt. I

don`t want a citizen to get hurt.

If we all go away, they`re going to be on this mall and they`re going to destroy this mall.

The peaceful protesters that decided, yes, this is what we want. We want it have our protest, and they got that Thursday. And they went home.

The other group was, wait a minute, he has come in and changed their behind. We can`t let him win. We can`t let that philosophy win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Back with Sam and our behavior bureau. Emily Roberts, psychotherapist, Spirit, the host of the show "The Daily Help Line",

Jennifer Keitt, life coach.

Michael Brown`s mother appeared on NBC`s "Today Show" to talk about the unrest in Ferguson. Take a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, NBC "TODAY": What will bring peace to the streets of Ferguson?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice. Him being arrested, charges being filed, and a prosecution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Jennifer, is what it`s going to take? What do we do to get - - I want to ask each of you, what do we need to do to get this to stop and bring us -- bring us together to heal a wound that has never been healed?

JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I wish that I could say, Dr. Drew, that prosecution of that officer is going to bring the peace that we`re looking

for. But I honestly don`t believe that.

PINSKY: What is it going to take?

KEITT: What is it going to take? We are going to have to have national dialogue. I cannot stress that enough.

You know, Dr. Drew, before I came on, I had dinner with my husband. And I laid down a scenario for my husband, who`s a 50-year-old-plus black

man, very successful in his career.

And I asked him, when you see the blue lights behind you, if you might have been speeding or even if the car is going to be passing you, I said,

what is the first thing that you think about? And he without hesitation said, the first thing that I think about is having harm come to me if I am

pulled over.

That is a problem, Dr. Drew. That is a problem if a 55-year-old executive in a company whose a black man in America is still thinking that

way.

I didn`t tell him to think that way. And by that same token, when white officers are officers sit down with their family members and all day

long, they have dealt with all kinds of folks, including African-American males, and in their mind and in their psyche, they see that kind of person

being linked to crime, you can`t tell me that that is not impacting them when they`re out there on the streets.

I`ve talked to law enforcement. I know that`s the way. So we`ve got to have meaningful dialogue apart from the explosion that we have going on

right now.

PINSKY: All right. Spirit?

SPIRIT, THE DAILY HELP LINE: You know, Jennifer hit it just right. We have got to open up the dialogue. And we cannot wait for situations

like this where opportunists are able to come in and take advantage of the situation, Dr. Drew.

We need to get real and talk about race relations in America. There is no perfect scenario here.

PINSKY: But, Spirit, we talk about it all the time, I thought.

SPIRIT: No, we don`t.

PINSKY: What are we missing?

SPIRIT: We sugar-coat it. We are politically correct about it. We do not have real conversation.

PINSKY: What is missing? Help me.

SPIRIT: What is missing --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Let me say something. Let me tell you one thing that I think is -- and let me frame it when I seem so ignorant on the issues.

When people have privilege, privilege is invisible. I want to say that. So, I`m a white male. So presumably I have a certain amount of

privilege just being so. So, it`s invisible to me. It`s people who don`t have it that really see it.

SPIRIT: But it`s not invisible to everybody else. You`re right.

PINSKY: That`s right. So, what do I need to do? Where do I need to be engaged in conversation that I`m not?

SPIRIT: What you have to do is you have to not be resistant to recognizing that as a white male in America, you come from a line of

privilege and that is real, and that privilege is afforded to you even today, through no fault of your own, and through nothing that you have done

to earn it.

That is real in America. Race relations, we are a divided nation. And until we get real about our biases, until we get real about our fears,

our hatred, our ignorance, our lack of knowing each other, we are in communities where we still don`t know each other. Where we pass each other

like two ships in the night and we don`t have bonds, we don`t have connections.

We don`t have love for people that don`t look like us. Many of us don`t have love for people that do look like us.

And so, until we get real about relationship and what matters in this country, and until we have frank dialogue and not be afraid it hurt each

other`s feelings, nothing is going to change.

PINSKY: Samantha, you were nodding your head.

SCHACHER: Yes, absolutely. I think it`s really interesting that you brought up the point that we need to be really frank and honest about it,

because today, the mayor in Ferguson, it kind of back fired on him when he was trying to sugar-coat over the issue by saying that there`s no racial

divide in Ferguson. And, of course, there is outrage after that.

(CROSSTALK)

KEITT: That is crazy.

PINSKY: But I think, Sam, we need to point, Emily, is it`s invisible to people that have it. Like if I have a privilege, I don`t see it.

People that don`t have it really see it and feel it.

SCHACHER: But to be the mayor, though, Dr. Drew, real quickly, to be the mayor, there is a disconnect then within him and the community. He

should be aware of that.

PINSKY: I`m very concerned about leaders generally. I`m really concerned they are not leading us out of this. That`s my concern. But,

Emily, help me with the feelings that have come through here. I think a lot of the feeling based experience, and what do we do with that? Is there

something we`re missing here?

EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: We need more mediators. We don`t need anymore instigators. There have been enough going on there.

We need more people that want peace and who can express themselves in a way that says -- we need people on the front lines no matter what color

they are, saying, hey, look, let`s have a conversation. Help me understand. Help me communicate. Please help me understand what you`re

going through.

This way we can have dialogue about what you ladies are saying. We need a conversation.

PINSKY: But we are having conversations.

(CROSSTALK)

SPIRIT: Not everybody is represented at the table. Not everybody gets to come to the table to have that conversation and then for the folks

that do show up, not everybody has the language. They are communicating loud and clear in Ferguson. Their frustration, the best by they know how.

Are they right? Absolutely not. But unless, they are invited to the table and unless we are willing to be real about the fact that people are

angry that they don`t have jobs. They are angry they can`t take care of their families. They`re angry that they don`t have the same access to

health care and education, that other people, through again, no right or fault of their own, have access to.

Until we get real and provide real solutions to those problems, this is going to continue.

JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: You know, I think they goes beyond that as well because here is the deal. I should not be called racist if I have

a very frank and real conversation with my son as I just did before I dropped him off at college on Saturday, telling him, do not be caught after

certain hours.

Make sure that you watch who you are hanging out with. Do not be the only black man in the crowd because if it goes down, there is a good

likelihood that something might happen to you.

I should not be called racist when I am being very real with the situation and context in which we live in. By that same token, if an

officer should say, "Look, I am fearful of black men, say it. Say it. So, that I know what we are dealing with.

CLANTON: But, you know, we also have to be real about law enforcement and the fact that we move towards enforcement and not towards service and

not towards protection. And, this is part of the problem when we have individuals that do not live in our communities, and by our, I mean

whenever you live, that is your community.

When people come in to enforce, and they do not know you, they do not know your family. They do not know your mother. They do not know

where you grew up. They do not know about you. It makes it easy to feel disconnected.

DR. DAVID DREW, HLN HOST OF "DR. DREW ON CALL": Yes.

CLANTON: And, to deal with you as an object instead of an individual.

KEITT: Absolutely.

DR. DREW: Right. Well, at least you can feel as though somebody is doing that. And, I know law enforcement is trying to take a different

model. In fact, I am going to bring in our own Evy Poumpouras.

She is a former agent with a secret service. I want her -- there she is. I wan her to address these kinds of issues, policing issues. When

deadly force needs to be used? When police should use it? Why six shots? What are her thoughts? And, more right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL LLOYD, SURGEON AND PATHOLOGIST: Six gunshot wounds including the lethal one that entered the top of the skull and caused such severe brain

damage, incompatible with life. Now, another important issue, though, is the toxicology.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EVY POUMPOURAS, INVESTIGATIVE ANALYST: Toxicology, that also will make an affect if there is any substance within an individual`s body or

also genetically the biology of an individual. It may take somebody one shot to go down and to stop and cease and desist and another individual

multiple shots.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: We keep talking about the fear that this police officer had because of this black man that could have been

charging at him. What about the fear that this man had?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW: Back with Sam, Emily, Jennifer. Joining the group, Evy Poumpouras, former special agent with secret service. First up, you know,

guy I got some new video just obtained by CNN of officer Darren Wilson, the man who shot and killed Michael Brown. It is from 2011.

In it, he is receiving a commendation. Apparently, he has been with the city of Ferguson for six years. No previous disciplinary action on his

record. He is 28 years of age. On paid administrative leave. He will have to undergo psychological evaluation per police policy. This is the

guy that we have all been thinking about the last few days. Evy, have you ever been in a situation like that officer found himself?

EVY POUMPOURAS, ON-AIR SECURITY AND INVESTIGATIVE ANALYST: This is a difficult topic because it has been hard for me to listen to all of the

dialogue. And, I have tried to remain objective, obviously. But, I do have somewhat a different perception from different point of view, because

I have been in that situation, where you have your weapon drawn, where you engage with an individual, regardless of race, gender, what have you.

People do not always comply.

And, here in lies the problem. Where you are in a situation, where you got seconds, and a limited amount of information to decide. Do, I

discharge my weapon because this person is not listening to me, is not heeding my information or do I wait and hold back and risk the possibility

of this person hurting me.

This is not an easy decision to make by far. It is a heavy burden that police carry. And, I have to tell you, it is one of the worse places

to be put in as an individual. To make that call and risk making the wrong call, because it could be him and you take the shot and you take that

person down. Or you risk it and then it can be you.

So my -- the one thing I want to ask of everybody, please take a moment and put yourself in that officer`s position. And think, what it is

like in that moment, with limited information, with seconds, with stress, with adrenaline, with all of the things going on, possibly have not been

assaulted, making that decision. Do I shoot or not shoot. Could it be him or could it be me. This here in is what I really feel that we should also

be looking at.

DR. DREW: Evy, I agree with you. However, I want to take this to a place that is really uncomfortable, because as I just heard from Jennifer

and Spirit in the last segment, I think what my African-American friends and colleagues are telling us is that there is enough of a bias in that

moment against the African-American male that those scales shift necessarily.

And, I do not want to say that it has to be, but it seems as though it shifts towards the -- in this case, the victim. Towards the African-

American male, even when it is an African-American male officer, I think people would say. I think that is what I am hearing. Do you think that is

true? If it is true, how do we solve that problem?

POUMPOURAS: I do think it is true to a certain extent with certain individuals. I cannot presume to tell what you is in the heart and mind of

this officer who discharged his weapon. I cannot. I only know what is in my heart and my mind. I cannot tell you what is in the heart of other law

enforcement officer. Do I think bias exist? Yes. Do I think racism exists? Yes.

And, the thing is education and being very selective in who we allow into our police department. Many police departments, such as NYPD, which

when I first joined -- I joined the NYPD, I was evaluated and put to take the MMPI-2, which I am sure you are familiar with, Dr. Drew,

DR. DREW: A psychological test.

POUMPOURAS: It is a psychological exam to determine my predisposition. What is wrong with me, my attributes, my temperament,

racism, bias? You need to thoroughly determine the individuals that you take and give a badge and gun and put them onto the street to police. Are

they there because they want to preserve and protect human life? Great. You put them out there. But if they are not, if they are looking to be

cowboys, or make these decisions or be bullies, or abuse their power, they do not deserve to have a badge or a gun.

KEITT: And, so where is the dialogue then? Where is the forum for this?

DR. DREW: No. No. Jennifer, I just want to make sure I am getting at the right issue here. I love Evy`s solutions here. This is the way I

have always felt about regulating people and staying on top of people with professional responsibility. Let`s choose them better, train them better.

KEITT: OK. But, it is not just one-sided, to that point. If I walk empathetically in that officer`s shoes, I absolutely agree with what Evy is

saying. I absolutely do.

DR. DREW: But, are we getting at the issue.

KEITT: Yes. It is from that vantage point. Can we then turn around too and walk in Michael Brown`s shoes.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Right.

KEITT: When we walk in one another shoes, I am wondering, Dr. Drew, is that what is the problem here, because there is hell to pay if I walk in

the officer`s shoes. As an African-American woman if I get on national television and say, "I understand his judgment call, and I do not like it,

but I do understand it." Then I might be seen as a sell-out or an uncle tom or whatever the case may be.

DR. DREW: But, that is a splitting nonsense -- that is what we call splitting behaviors, which is it is us and them. It is a way of

maintaining my status quo. We all need to forget that.

KEITT: But, we have to be able to understand one another. How can we do that unless we can see it from both vantage points.

DR. DREW: Yes.

EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, why cannot we have a dialogue about this, though. Everyone deserves an

opportunity to speak about this and educate themselves on this, right? You are absolutely right. When we do these evaluations, I have done them

myself and we have to have a really, really strategic measure here in order to pick the right people to serve and protect.

And, I do not know that is actually happening in a lot of places. You add in this environment and you add in these conditions that this

particular officer was in a very tension environment and we do not know what to expect.

KEITT: And, so, now, as African-Americans, how do we trust the very people that we are supposed to say we are law abiding citizens? How can I

trust that when you pull me over or when you come to my home, it is going to be OK?

DR. DREW: All right. I got to stop you there. I got to go out, because we are going back out to Ferguson to see what is happening right

now. As you see, night has fallen. Stephanie is still there. We will be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARNETT: No one will ever know exactly what happened, other than Michael Brown, who is not here to tell his side. So, we kind of have the

black community feels like they have to stand up for him because he is not here. And that police officer who has not said a word.

KARAMO BROWN, TELEVISION HOST: Of course, as black man, I am upset. But, it is what we discussed today. We all give a group hug, because we

knew that together is when the change happens. When we are separate, and that is what I feel is happening right now. There are too many people that

are on this side and some on that side. You know, you all should be getting hate tweets. It should be, let us get together.

BARNETT: We know that. We know that.

BROWN: We know that.

BARNETT: We have good times together. Please no hate tweets. These women are amazing. And they just want -- they just want to ask questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW: That, unfortunately, I do not think that stopped the hate tweets before Leeann. I apologize to her tonight. Back with Sam, Evy,

Jennifer, Vanessa --

SCHACHER: I am getting them, too.

DR. DREW: You are getting them now?

SCHACHER: Not today. I think we have had really good objective dialogue tonight, and I am grateful for that. I am trying to be better for

that. But last night, not so much.

DR. DREW: All right. Now, you may have seen this link on your Facebook page today. A petition submitted to the White House asking for a

law to require all police officers to wear body cameras has more than 120,000 signatures so far. Evy, at first, that sounds terribly expensive

to me. It seems like more bureaucratic mess. But is that the solution?

POUMPOURAS: Yes. Actually, that is something they transition to doing to avoid situations like this. And, the reason why all departments

have not is because of money. It always comes down to the money in the budget. But, when have you have a camera set up in the car, on the

officer, himself then you can avoid this type of guessing game.

And, then it also keeps -- keep in mind, it keeps in check as well the officer. Psychologically, it is also a psychological deterrent to the

officer to do anything that might be considered inappropriate, because you are being recorded. It is excellent. And, at the Same time, it also can

corroborate what an officer says.

DR. DREW: All right. So, we are saying -- again, I am trying to stay in the solutions tonight. I know dialogue is something that everyone is

saying we need to do. Here is something tangible we can do. We are having a dialogue. But the dialogue needs to be directed toward solutions and

towards -- I think Vanessa, was that you, honesty is where we need to stay. Vanessa we will get your thoughts right now.

BARNETT: Absolutely, honesty. You said something last episode where you said we need to kind of go back and have that frank and honest

discussion before we can almost even tackle this conversation right now. And, I think that is poignant because until we face those issues, until we

-- I am going to say it, until we figure out and can come to some discourse and conversation about slavery.

I mean it is still rooted there. We cannot forget that and we are told African community to forget that. We got to start there, because

people are still angry with that. And, I know a lot of times that is hard it believe, but that is where the anger comes from. That is where the fear

comes from. That is where the tensions come from.

DR. DREW: Listen. It is called intergenerational transition of trauma. I think you are on to it. Samantha, are you comfortable having

that kind of conversation?

SCHACHER: 100 percent, Dr. Drew. And, I know that because I am a white female --

DR. DREW: That is why I am asking you.

SCHACHER: I have never been harassed by police. Never, ever, ever have I ever been harassed by policeman.

DR. DREW: But, I have been.

SCHACHER: You have been?

DR. DREW: And, he was an African-American guy. And, he almost shook my head off. And, when I was in high school, he lifted me off the ground

and shook me. And, I thought, "All right, now when the blue lights are going off by me, I do not think about that guy." It is not just about

that. I think Vanessa is on to it. It is a deeper thing here. We have to get honest by that. Jennifer, you are nodding.

KEITT: I agree wholeheartedly. I mean the conversation -- honestly, every time a black -- I feel like every time I mention race, I am always

being judged as having a chip on my shoulder, and that should not be.

BARNETT: Yes.

KEITT: That really should not be. I am a black woman. I love being a black woman. And, I love you for being a white male, Dr. Drew. And, I

think this is part of the conversation starter right here. National media has the power to change. And, I applaud you for at least being willing to

say, I am a person of privilege, and I want to understand.

DR. DREW: That is why I like talking to Miss Alley, although she says this thing is so inflammatory, I want to try to understand. Well, there is

somewhere in there and usually I can get to it; but, in the meantime, she alienates everybody so it puts everyone off.

(LAUGHING)

All right, you, guys, stay with me. Next up, the social media impact. We are going to share your Facebook comments about what is going

on in Ferguson. We are back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DR. DREW: I am back with Sam, Evy, Jennifer, and Vanessa. Let`s go out to see what is happening in Ferguson right now. CNN`s Stephanie Elam

is there. Stephanie, can you give us an update?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Dr. Drew. If you take a look behind me, you can see there is a crowd that is out there. It is a

much larger crowd than the last time we spoke to you, but it is a very diverse crowd. I have been watching the people walk by. I have seen just

about every race among them. Men, women, walking peacefully protesting, saying, "Hands up! Do not shoot." Saying, they are out here for Mike

Brown. The same idea.

A couple of times they did kind of stop in one place, and the police came along and disperse everyone and told them to keep moving. But,

overall, so far, it has been calm. We did see the Attorney General from Missouri come out here with his security and walk out here for a bit. But

over all, you still feel the tension but the peaceful protesting has been going on here.

A lot of people chanting. A lot of people yelling. One woman calling for President Obama to come to Ferguson. She is out here talking

about everything that she thinks is wrong with the situation and people stop to listen to her in the middle of the walking. But, if you take a

look out here, a lot of people is still out here. A lot of people is still on the side.

DR. DREW: Good. Excellent. Thank you, Stephanie. We hope and pray that this continues to be a productive and not destructive night. I think

it may have termed. Guys -- Jennifer, I love the way you framed those comments you made in the last segment. I really do.

That is the opposite of divisiveness. That is bringing us together. The President did say we share a history, and it is a unique history that

we all as Americans share. And, Vanessa, you are right. Slavery is part of that history. We need to not shrink from it but address it directly and

honestly, as you were saying, Vanessa.

BARNETT: Absolutely. And, I think that is kind of where the anger sometimes stems, because you know, a lot of times it is like, let`s forget

that. Let`s not talk about it. Or even now, I have heard things as crazy as, you know, the President is black, so there is no racism.

Like, we cannot keep stepping on these issues. We cannot keep covering them up and we cannot keep acting like they do not exist. And,

there is nothing wrong with the dialogue. There is nothing wrong with being uncomfortable and getting really honest. I want to be uncomfortable

and I love that we could talk about things like this here. It starts with conversations like this.

DR. DREW: All right. Let`s get to social media. I promise a little bit of that. I got limited time. Here is one now from Jany. They want to

know if there is any drugs in his system. Let`s drop that topic, because I am telling you the only drugs of any relevance that would make somebody

aggressive in that setting, that this all went down would be PCP and methamphetamine.

And, there is no evidence that anything like that happened. Please everybody, stop talking about pot and whether or not this kid had pot his

system. Let`s stop that. Look, there is already a standoff. People need to get on the street. There is no good coming -- Why do we not have

weapons -- Oh, this is a good question -- subdue or capture a suspect and not need to kill them. Evy, what about that? Why shooting to kill? Why

not have better weapons to help subdue?

POUMPOURAS: Right. Police do have tasers. They have pepper spray. They have all those things that they can use. This is a situation here,

again, we are talking about what we have the information we have. We are talking about seconds here that transpired between the officer and the

victim, Michael Brown.

You have to assume that officer has time to transition from his firearm to pepper spray to a taser, if he even has access to taser or any

of those things. It is not that simple. I want to touch on one more thing that has not been brought up, training. We talk about old different

things, but training is a key important factor in having police officers who are effective.

They put you through the academy. You are done with the academy, and then they send you out. But, you need to have continual training,

continual scenarios, stress factors, adrenalin scenarios, where you put officers in a continual basis so that when they are on the street they can

react quickly and efficiently.

DR. DREW: And, by the way, Evy. If there is a bias against African- American males, train that out.

KEITT: Yes. Thank you.

DR. DREW: Figure out a way of dealing with that, because that is what we are all saying here. Let`s not shrink from any of these issues. Let`s

say they are there and let`s start managing them. Let`s start dealing with them. Listen, I love the way Jennifer framed this. I commend you for

being so healing in the way you talked about this tonight.

Let`s stop talking about us and them. Let`s do this together. Let`s work on solving this problem. Let this man not have died in vein. DVR us

and you can watch us any time. Forensic files up next.

END