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Ferguson Prosecutor Asked to Recuse in Brown Case; Will Darren Wilson Testify in Grand Jury Case; Mike "Killer Mike" Render Talks Michael Brown Shooting.

Aired August 20, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: McCulloch has promised he will be fair, but when it comes to calls for his removal, he told a morning radio show today that he wishes Missouri's governor would quote, unquote, "man up and make a decision."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT MCCULLOUGH, ST. LOUIS COUNTY PROSECUTOR: We're going to proceed, you know, as I've laid out to people, until I'm told -- if I'm told by the governor that I can't. And the most devastating thing that can happen is if a week from now, a month from now, he decides that he's taken me off this case. You know, everybody is starting over. So stand up, you know, man up. Stand up and say, "I have this authority, I am not removing McCulloch, I am removing McCulloch," and let's get on with this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Two assistant prosecutors from McCulloch's office are to begin presenting evidence to the grand jury today. It's a process McCulloch says could take until mid October to complete.

So let's bring in our legal minds, HLN host, Jane Velez-Mitchell; and CNN senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin.

Let's just begin with this prosecutor in this case and these calls for him to recuse himself. The statement from his office saying listen, he's been elected and re-elected multiple times. The people in his jurisdiction trust him.

You were saying to me, I thought it was interestingly when you were talking about, being a prosecutor, you were so close with members of the FBI. It's normal to have those kinds of ties.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: That's how prosecutors do their job. They work with police officers to build cases. They are partners. In federal system, system U.S. attorneys are partner with FBI agents and DEA agents. In a state like Missouri, a prosecutor like McCulloch is a partner with the local police. There is nothing sinister about that. But it is true that there are very close ties there, which makes prosecuting or investigating police officers very dicey.

BALDWIN: So that's professional, but also personal for him. We know he lost his father, shot and killed by a black man. Would that bias him?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: I don't think that's fair. I really don't think it's fair to the prosecutor to say, because you have family members in law enforcement, you can't be objective. But I do think that the waters have been so muddied, and this has become so politicized, it is time for a special prosecutor. Let's bring in a special prosecutor.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Let's bring in. What's the harm? It doesn't have to be an attack o this prosecutor personally? What's the harm saying let's calm the waters, bring in somebody, a special prosecutor, the way they did in Florida with Angela McCorey --

BALDWIN: Right.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- bring this person in and have them take over. No harm, no foul. And it will make everybody feel a lot better.

TOOBIN: Protests alone shouldn't be the reason to disqualify someone.

BALDWIN: Right.

TOOBIN: There has to be an underlying reason. And the fact that his father was murdered 50 years ago -- a long time -- doesn't strike me as justification.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: And the fact that he has a cousin on the police force? That's not a big --

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have been itching to say something about this case and I really want to say it. Everybody is searching for the truth and transparency. There was one little piece of technological equipment, a badge cam, a body cam, that could have given us the truth. That could have set it straight for everybody. Zero controversy. Now, they didn't have the money to install that. This officer -- they didn't have the money for a dash cam. But we have all these millions of dollars to spend on all this militarization. We can spend all of the many tens of thousands of dollars on overtime for police officers. We're mixed up in this country. We have reactive justice. I think it's a time right now for everyone in America, if we want to make sure this young man did not die in vain, to say every single police officer in the United States of America should have a badge cam and should have a dash cam. And I really feel that there is something that has to come out of this crisis.

BALDWIN: I'm glad you bring it up. We did a whole piece with Alina Machado, in Florida. They use those body cams. Talked to the police chief. They agree with you. They want it. And I think they were supposed to have dash cams. I read a piece in "The Washington Post" last week. They just had yet to install them. VELEZ-MITCHELL: They couldn't afford to install them.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Time-out, quick break.

I have so much more for you coming up. Let's talk more about this officer, since we just heard from Don Lemon saying he has been invited to testify in front of the grand jury. Will he? This is it in his benefit to do so? We'll talk to these guys about that, and also just credibility within witnesses' testimonies. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right. Let's hop back in with HLN host, Jane Velez- Mitchell; and CNN senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin.

Where were we? Let me begin with something that Don Lemon just made this point. We know this grand jury, beginning today, we know the prosecutor in this case out of St. Louis County has extended an invitation to the police officer, who shot and killed Michael Brown, if he would like to testify. Much of the world has not -- listen, we haven't heard from him, period. We heard from a friend of a friend. You say he probably won't accept the invitation.

TOOBIN: Probably not.

BALDWIN: Why?

TOOBIN: Lawyers invariably tell their clients who are under investigation, "Don't testify if you don't have to." Because it locks you into a story under oath. You can later be cross-examined. You can hope your story is so persuasive you'll persuade the grand jurors not to indict. But that's a big risk and I think he'll decline to testify.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you. But this is such a highly politicized situation, there is such a demand for an indictment to come out of this, I think that this officer will say I want to get in there and at least tell my side of the story. And in that sense, it's already weighted in favor of the prosecution because that officer is alive to tell his side of story. Michael Brown is not alive to tell his side of the story.

And his good friend, who was right there with him, a key witness, he's got credibility problems. Because he was with, according to authorities, police -- excuse me, according to authorities, he was with Michael Brown at the convenience store minutes earlier during this alleged robbery. Now, he had spoken to the media and said we were talking down the street and minding our own business. So he may have credibility problems. He's the key witness who would stand up and say Michael Brown was doing nothing wrong and raising his hands.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Talking to Mark O'Mara, often the eye-witnesses are often traumatized by the series of events and it's sometimes blurry that the facts, whatever they see, aren't as picture-perfect as one would think.

TOOBIN: True. But when the prosecution has the burden of proving to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt what happened, if your witnesses are inconsistent, if your witnesses are traumatized, that's your problem as a prosecutor, not the defendant's.

BALDWIN: Got it. Got it.

Jeff Toobin, Jane Velez-Mitchell, thank you, thank you very much.

Coming up next, he is a rapper, an entrepreneur, an activist, but he's also the son of a police officer. Mike -- Killer Mike Render joins live with his emotional words for the chaos in Ferguson.

Plus, Spike Lee's remarks that there is, quote, "war on the black male."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPIKE LEE, DIRECTOR: And we get blinded to think that because we've got Oprah, we've got Michael Jordan, we've got Lebron, we've got Beyonce, we've got Jay-Z, that everything is OK. And I'm trying to show any disrespect to the great --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right. So the number of celebrities speaking out about the Michael Brown shooting and the violent unrest that's followed is growing and growing. There have been op-eds, there have been tweets, live interviews. The latest to weigh in is Atlanta-based rapper, Killer Mike. This artist, this man is no stranger to social commentary about police.

I want you to listen. We're going to play a snippet from his 2012 song called "Reagan."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: In the aftermath of the Ferguson shooting, Mike wrote a "Billboard" magazine op-ed saying, "I have searched all night and day for new and better words that could express my feelings and fear for the people of this country. I found no new words. I only have no hope-filled insight to deliver. I only have this warning to all Americans: Whatever this country is willing to do to the least of us, it will one day do to us all."

He calls himself a pan-Africanist, a gangster rapper, a civic leader, an activist. He joins me now, right next to me, Michael "Killer Mike" Render.

Hi. It's so nice to meet you.

(CROSSTALK)

MIKE "KILLER MIKE" RENDER, RAPPER: Hi.

BALDWIN: Thanks for rolling into New York.

RENDER, RAPPER: Thanks.

BALDWIN: So listen, for people who don't know you, in addition to being an artist and a rapper, you are a father, you are a husband --

RENDER: Yep.

BALDWIN: -- you are a son.

RENDER: Yeah.

BALDWIN: So that's where I wanted to begin. Your dad, Killer Mike, was a police officer.

RENDER: Yes.

BALDWIN: So especially when we talk about the events happening in Ferguson, you have a lot of thoughts on police. And he never wanted his kids to follow in his footsteps.

RENDER: No. He got the call that my younger sister who got -- she works in a school office now. Actually, she works in the middle school my son goes to. So that's a job within itself, policing him. But I remember when she first got the call that she may be going into law enforcement, he was heartbroken.

BALDWIN: Why?

RENDER: Because, unfortunately, police see the worst of human behavior a lot more than they see the best. And I think it beat him up as a really young man. I think he left for those reasons and having more children. And friends of mine whose dads were police officers, some of their dads were killed on the jobs. So, you know, it's not an easy role. And I hold police in a high and honorable, you know --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Position.

RENDER: Yeah. It is. Because it's so difficult to be -- most policemen are working-class guys. But let's be honest. Most policemen come from the salt of the earth in America. Most are ex soldiers or from the communities they police --

(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: So shouldn't they know the issues and know the people in

their communities?

RENDER: They should and they used to. And --

BALDWIN: What changed?

RENDER: The culture of policing is changing. It's becoming more militarized. They're getting old military weapons. They're using kids fresh out of the military and using military tactics. We have essentially gone from being communities that were policed by people from the communities to being communities that are policed by strangers. And that's no longer a community. That's an area that's under siege.

BALDWIN: But these tactics, this isn't new. These pictures. And I think what makes it different is the crowds. All of the people, the violence, the arrests and everything else. But what is it that you think about what happened in Ferguson, and what is it now, 10, 11 days ago when Michael Brown was shot and killed, why are we all talking about this? Because we could talk about Chicago every day.

RENDER: We could.

BALDWIN: I could read all kinds of names of young people shot and killed. Why Ferguson?

RENDER: This seems very gratuitous. Like, there is no gun found on the child. If there are no -- close -- if there are no burns or gun powder close that says they weren't in close proximity. And everything -- you know, my grandfather taught me, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, there is probably a duck behind that bush. And the consciousness of this country does not agree with this shooting. I don't think it agreed with Sean Bell. I don't think it agreed with Amma Duliaon. I don't think it agreed with --

(CROSSTALK)

RENDER: With Garner. I don't think he agreed. But I think this was a child, a college-bound child. This was a child that had done childish stuff. Children shoplift. Children act like gangsters and robbers. Children do stupid stuff. But no one could go to bed at the night of finding out about this young man's murder comfortable that a child had been shot up to or more than six times in a defensive position.

BALDWIN: I think it speaks to a bigger picture, which is the black man in America in 2014, talked to a lot of people about that. Spike Lee said there is a war on the black male. I want you to listen to what he said. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: But I just think there's a war on the black male. And it's tearing the country apart, in my opinion. It's the educational system. It's the prison system. It's these young black men growing up with no hope. So I think it's systematic. And we get blinded to think that because of Oprah, we've got Michael Jordan, we've got Lebron, we've got Beyonce, we've got Jay-Z, like everything is OK. And I'm not trying to give any disrespect to the great individuals I just named, because many are my dear three friends, but they are the exception. The black underclass is growing every single day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Do you agree?

RENDER: I agree with that. And I would like to expound on that, that this is a black male issue. It has been for all my 30-something years on life. And I refuse to let you only think about that.

Whatever this country is willing to do to the least looked upon -- and we could all come to agreeance (sic) that oftentimes -- and more times than not, black males are least looked upon. We are the least thought about in terms of education. We're the least thought about in terms of community and police relations. But whatever this country is willing to do to them, to black people, to those males, will eventually happen to all Americans. So I'm saying to America, if they will violate the rights of an 18-year-old African-American child, what's going to happen with anyone?

BALDWIN: The president spoke out the other night about this for the second time. And he pointed out, there is a perception and then there is the reality. And keep that in your mind while I read this tweet that you retweeted. Somebody tweeted to you, Mike, on this quote, unquote, "thug life trend has to end. It serves to fill cemeteries and prisons for foolishness."

I mean, you yourself, on your Twitter page, refer to yourself as a gangster rapper.

RENDER: Yep.

BALDWIN: You are Killer Mike.

RENDER: Yep.

BALDWIN: How does that not, you know, further extend and improve the president's point that there is a perception out there?

RENDER: Well, first, let's say I am Killer Mike because I kill microphones. And I trust people are intelligent enough to get it. You got it. So if you don't get that, then that's probably where we're going to end our intelligence conversation. Because I trust Americans to be smart.

Killer Mike is a gangster rapper. Before I get to the gangster rapper part, which is kind of tongue in cheek, I say I'm Michael Render. I like my woman, weed, polo and politics. I pretty much let you know what my political agendas are. It's close to my family, close to medicinal marijuana, and I follow politics as a hobby. When I say I'm a pan-African gangster rapper, I think that the African that's from West Africa, the Caribbean, to North America should be working wholeheartedly to fix our own problems. That means Atlantans should be donating money to Haiti and West Africa and we shouldn't be worrying about how people perceive us.

In terms of a gangster rapper, gangster rapper it's just code word for I see very harsh, real, and brutal stuff, just like the stuff my dad saw on the street when he was a cop. But at the end, I offer some type of resolution, just like at the end of violence, which teaches you the six steps. At the end, there is always reconciliation.

BALDWIN: It's interesting you bring up Atlanta and how Atlantans should help others and Atlantans should also help Atlantans. So I want to take a quick break because I think what you're doing with this barber shop is fantastic in terms of what's happening in the community and how others can do the same.

But also I want to ask you -- and this is what we'll do on the other side of the break -- what happens if, going back to what happened in Ferguson, if this officer is not arrested? What happens then? Stay with me. Killer Mike, live on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just a quick reminder as we're watching the situation in Ferguson, Missouri, here now,12 days after 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot and killed. We can tell you the attorney general, Eric Holder, is there on the ground. We're watching, waiting to see if he'll make public comments. We'll bring it to you if and when he does.

Meantime, sitting to my right here is activist and hip-hop artist, Michael "Killer Mike" Render.

And we have been talking about a lot as it pertains to your life, as a son of a police officer. What you think about black men in America and Ferguson. Quickly, what I love about your story is you believe in barber shops in the African-American community.

RENDER: I do.

BALDWIN: There's one by the airport and you can have your finger on the pulse of what's happening in the community.

RENDER: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: You can help other black people with jobs.

RENDER: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: I'm curious if you have police officers roll through there and what's the interaction?

RENDER: Absolutely. I have an Atlanta marshal, I have two Fulton County sheriffs, I have three Atlanta city police officers that all are serviced at that shop. And it's important -- and I told them --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Dialogue.

RENDER: Yeah. I want you to coming to my shop because I want children not fearing the police. I want you coming to my shop because I want people knowing you and they can actively engage. Our shop got broken into about a week before I left on tour. Fulton County showed up, prompt, on time. And I have built a great report with Fulton County in particular.

BALDWIN: So important.

RENDER: Yeah. And I --

(CROSSTALK)

RENDER: The shop is a swag shop. If you guys want to see it, it's beautiful. It's swag shop, underscore that. It's a place where I enjoy seven or eight barbers, where children are intern, taught to open the door for their mom, given Hot Wheels free with every hair cut to build their interest in cars and mechanics and trade. I just wanted an alternative to the narrative that black men are suffering. Yeah, we're suffering. Underprivileged people suffer. And with that, saying you can attend trade school, you can turn your life around in one generation. Anything is possible.

BALDWIN: Killer Mike, what happens -- just take it back to Ferguson and we've got to go. What happens if and when this police office is not arrested?

RENDER: If this police officer is not arrested, what immediately may happen is some rioting. It may be tears and pain and agony and burning. And I hope it's not that. But what really happens if this police officer isn't arrested is all of our rights are continually thrown out of the window. I'm afraid for all Americans. I'm not just black Americans today. I'm afraid for all Americans. Because whether it's this situation with this particular policeman in Ferguson or illegal traffic stops or policemen asking questions that directly interfere with your Fifth Amendment rights, things are gotten so lax to the point that we all have an apathy that we aren't on the case about the people we vote into office, meaning mayors, the people they appoint, police chiefs, and the people that are higher police. We, as Americans, have to be more vigilant about policing the people that we pay to protect and serve us.

BALDWIN: Killer Mike, thank you.

RENDER: Thank you so much.

BALDWIN: Thank you, thank you.

Anderson Cooper joins me live from Ferguson, next. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)