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American Beheaded By ISIS Executioner; ISIS Warns Obama Of "Bloodshed"; Ferguson Residents Living In Fear; Officer's Op-Ed Sparks Anger Online

Aired August 20, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: We are just past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. A kidnapped American kneels in the desert stand. James Foley reads a message presumably scripted by his captors denouncing America.

And Foley's last words, quote, "I wish I had more time to see my family" and then James Foley is beheaded. A brutal ISIS executioner appears to have a British accent. James Foley, 40 years of age, was a freelance photo journalist from New Hampshire.

ISIS, meanwhile, is now considered the world's most dangerous terror group, and not just that, but also the most repugnant. I want you to listen to this Iraqi-American, who lives in California and maintains sources inside Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK ARABO, CHALDEAN-AMERICAN LEADER: Day by day, it's getting worse and worse. More children are being beheaded. Mothers are being raped and killed. The fathers are being hanged. The atrocities committed by ISIS are well-known. But still you're startling me with the severity of what you're describing. You say they are beheading children?

ARABO: They are systematically beheading children and mothers and fathers. The world hasn't seen an evil like this for generations. There is actually a park in Muslim that actually beheaded children and put their heads on a stick and they have them in the park. This is crimes against humanity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Beheading children. This is ISIS. Paul Cruickshank joins me, a CNN terrorism analyst and Michael Weise, columnist at foreign policy and now Lebanon.

Paul, let me just begin with you. You've written extensively about potential retaliation. Let me bring up the London accent of that masked ISIS terrorist who speaks in the video. We know that quite a few Europeans who fought with ISIS actually have gone back to Europe.

Could this be a signal for them to start carrying out attacks, either, you know, in Europe or the U.S.?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: The worry is, Brooke, it could be. There are a significant number of Europeans in this group, up to 1,000 in this group. And that gives them the opportunity to train them and to get them to return to Europe and even on to the United States to launch attacks.

There is also concern because there are hundreds of people who fought with groups like ISIS in Syria and Iraq who are now back in Europe. There is concern that they could launch attacks in the days to come -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: So we talk about potential retaliation and attacks. Michael to you, you have a little bit more on the video and of this attacker himself?

MICHAEL WEISS, CONTRIBUTOR, "POLITICO" MAGAZINE: "The Guardian" broke a story a couple hours ago disclosing the man who did the beheading is thought to be called John, a British national from London, actually. And he is part of a three-man ring of captors, all of them British.

The nickname for this group is "The Beatles" because of their national origin. And I think the reason that ISIS is employing Brits, people who speak fluent English, this is propaganda designed squarely at the United States and western countries.

This is both a recruitment call for more jihadists or more foreign nationals to join the cause and also a message to the United States.

BALDWIN: What do you think the U.S.' message or retaliation tactic should be back for ISIS? We've already -- have the air strikes. They say this was in retaliation to that. Do you think the U.S. should deploy an air strike campaign in Syria?

WEISS: Well, I mean, it's complicated, but I can tell you this. Right now, ISIS is making a concerted push to squeeze the western-back rebels out of Aleppo, which is the last real main stronghold of the revolution. There are rebels in Aleppo who are fighting both the Assad regime and ISIS at the same time.

Many of them would welcome air strikes against ISIS because it would at least relief some pressure on one of the fronts. The problem with this, of course, is --

BALDWIN: I was going to say, what's the danger in doing that?

WEISS: Also, look who we make an ally of.

BALDWIN: Bashar al-Assad.

WEISS: Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of the chemical weapons attacks, which killed 1,500 people in Damascus. To re-legitimate this dictator and war criminal as a partner in counterterrorism, I have to be honest with you, regime propaganda out of Syria from day one, 2011, was all about this. Everybody we're fighting here, all these peaceful protesters before there was an armed campaign, they are all terrorists. They are all al Qaeda. Now this video is the perfect propaganda point for Bashar al- Assad, and Vladimir Putin, who has been making the same exact case to the United States for ages.

So we managed to do air strikes in Iraq. Without quite cooperating, let's say, overtly, at least, with Iran, who also encouraged us to come in and rescue their boy.

Maliki and also the Shia political class that essentially owns Baghdad. How do we do it in Syria without also enabling Assad? It's very, very complicated.

BALDWIN: Paul Cruickshank, is there any weak spot for ISIS? I mean, what is the best way to take this horrendous group head-on?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, the long-term weak spot for ISIS is no one in Syria and Iraq is going to want them to stick around for a long time. This is an extremely brutal group. This is a group that used to be called al Qaeda in Iraq.

And we saw in Anbar Province in 2006 and 2007, a backlash against the group. So the hope is, you can split off some of its tribal allies, other than Sunnis who are allied with it in Iraq and that can also be a backlash against it in Syria.

But that's clearly going to take some time. For the time being, this is a group as Michael has been saying, that's going to grow and grow and pose a greater and greater long-term threat to the west.

BALDWIN: Heard from Obama earlier today really calling on other allies in the Middle East to extract this cancer. So it does not spread. The cancer, of course, being ISIS. Paul Cruickshank and Michael Weise, thank you both very much for your expertise.

And coming up, as we watch these scenes in Ferguson, Missouri, it's easy to forget about the people who are not out protesting on the streets. Remember, schools are closed. Businesses are shuttering. What is life like now for the people who live there? A special report next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: What exactly happened in the moments leading up to the shooting death of Michael Brown still remains in question, a total of three autopsies have been carried out on the body of Michael Brown. A key component of those examinations will be determining if there are signs of a struggle.

Joining me now, CNN's senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen. So when we talk about a struggle, Elizabeth, what exactly will medical examiners be looking for?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. So forensic pathologists, Brooke, are going to look for things like cuts and abrasions and bruises. They'll especially be looking at the knuckles, we think, because a friend of Officer Wilson's says that Michael Brown threw a punch at his face so they'll want to look and see if there are bruises on his knuckles.

BALDWIN: OK, and just quickly, they said though that the independent autopsy, forensic pathologist said so far no signs of a struggle, correct?

COHEN: Right. So far no signs of a struggle, but it will be interesting to see what the first autopsy said, which we still don't know that answer. And, of course, this third that was one done on Monday.

You know, it's interesting, the pathologist, who I interviewed yesterday she said sometimes with darker pigmented people, you don't always see a bruise and you have to cut away at the skin and sort of look inside and see if there are any signs of bruising there.

BALDWIN: OK, Elizabeth, thank you. You can watch Elizabeth's entire piece tonight on "Precisely This" at 8:00 Eastern on "Anderson Cooper 360" right here on CNN.

Quote, "If you don't want to get shot by a cop, don't challenge me. Just do what I tell you," end quote. These are the words from a professor and veteran police officer, a lot of backlash over this. He joins me next. Do not miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: There is no telling whether violence will erupt yet again tonight in Ferguson. But despite calls for protest against the police shooting of Michael Brown, there are a lot of people living in Ferguson, who want the violence to stop.

CNN anchor of "THE LEAD" Jake Tapper is live in Ferguson. So Jake, first let's just set the scene for me. Tell me what you're seeing today, and Eric Holder there today as well.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, "THE LEAD": That's right. And we stopped by the canfield green apartments where Mike Brown was shot a couple Saturdays ago. And asked residents what they thought of Attorney General Holder coming.

The residents with whom we spoke seemed happy, not specifically about Holder coming, but they don't trust, they say, local officials, whether St. Louis or even the state of Missouri, to properly investigate what happened.

So they are happy that outsiders from the federal government are coming. We also stopped by a church, Saint Mark's Church nearby, where there were all these reports of police coming.

And there were reports and they were erroneous of police taking supplies. But it is an interesting story that we'll have more on, on "THE LEAD" later because this church serves as a sort of safe haven for protesters to come and get food, water, medical treatment, if they want it.

And they say they have been having a lot of problems with St. Louis County police officers. We'll have more of that at the top of the hour -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK, Jake Tapper, we'll see you in 10 minutes time. Appreciate it live in Ferguson, Missouri.

Coming up next, in the wake of what's happened, the protests, the arrest in Ferguson, a police officer, a veteran police officer says you don't want to get hurt, don't challenge police. We'll talk to them live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A veteran police officer says all Americans need to stop arguing and stop challenging police if they don't want to get hurt, but already anger and outrage are erupting online over this column's tough stance. This is "The Washington Post" getting a ton of clicks.

In part, he writes, "Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line, if you don't want to get shot, tased, pepper- sprayed, struck with a baton, or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you."

Joining me now Sunil Dutta. He is a professor of Homeland Security at Colorado Tech and has logged 17 years as a Los Angeles police officer. Sunil, welcome.

SUNIL DUTTA, PROFESSOR OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Thank you, Ma'am.

BALDWIN: So, just explain to me what you say people are doing wrong when they encounter a police officer.

DUTTA: OK. Well, I would like to say that the paragraph you quoted as taking everything out of the context.

BALDWIN: This is why we have you on for the full context. Go ahead.

DUTTA: Yes. What I was trying to convey to the people was that in case of a detention, cooperate with the legal directions of the officers. I am pretty clear in my article that an officer cannot stop you without legal reason.

So once that is established and you can't ask, Officer, am I free to leave, am I being detained, but once it's established yes, this is the intention you have to provide your identification and you have to cooperate with the officers.

If you get into the safety zone, if you challenge the officer and you get too close and you walk towards the officer aggressively and an officer feels threatened, that is the time or it happens that people actually engage officers in a fight.

So that is the time use of force occurs. An officer cannot just approach a community member and use force. That is against the law. So what I was trying to say and what I'm trying to say very clearly is when you're approached by a police officer, you have all of the rights to first be treated with respect, treated with courtesy. There's no reason any officer in the United States should ever mistreat anyone.

BALDWIN: But that is part of the issue because hearing from a number of people they don't always get that respect from officers, who pull people over sometimes for absolutely legitimate reasons, but sometimes, as I've had friends say not necessarily and here is pushback for you because I would love your response to this, Sunil.

Somebody wrote this because you've gotten a lot of criticism. So somebody says this is Benjamin Reed of "The Washingtonian." He says your message is to, quote, "Shut up and take it because even the slightest bit of intransigents is grounds for the cops to unleash a world of hurt." How would you respond to him?

DUTTA: Well, actually I would say read the preceding paragraph because that's not what I'm saying. I gave an example of how throughout my street career I've been through a lot of challenging attitudes of a lot of people and never once did I have to use force. I could talk people out. I could deescalate situations.

And I'm telling you the vast majority of police stops are like this. It is not true that the majority of the officers go out and shout and scream at community members or ill treat them. That is not the fact.

In few cases where it happens where it's obvious because we know there are officers who abuse their authority and there's no doubt if that wasn't true, we won't have internal affairs.

And we won't have wrongful convictions or anything else. We all know that. When I'm trying to say is if there is a lawful detention, cooperate with the officer.

BALDWIN: Right.

DUTTA: And majority of the time, you will be even if you challenge the officer, even if you call them names, even if you do whatever, you will be treated with respect that's the reality.

I have tons of cassette tapes of my interaction with a lot of people save and if you play them, hundreds of hours, you will see how much abuse I took, but it was resolved peacefully.

BALDWIN: I take your word for it and interesting you bring up cassette tapes. You know, a lot of people are calling for, I think, you yourself these, you know, body cameras so that they're constantly rolling, full transparency of a police officer's actions and police officer's audio and dash cam video.

And the fact that the U.S. is spending money to take this military equipment from Iraq to, you know, have local police officers -- Iraq and Afghanistan, your point, they should have the money to spend on those cameras and those dash cams, as well?

DUTTA: Here's the thing, the need to invest in our own police, we have spent $1.2 trillion in Iraq and Afghanistan and long-term cost, Joseph Stegler says it's probably going to be 5 to 6 trillion. Take a fraction of that money and equip every officer and every agency with video recording.

I'm not saying that just the officer should be recorded. I'm saying every victim, witness, criminal interview and the witness room, interrogation, everything needs to be recorded so there is more transparency and that helps resolve all these misunderstandings.

Because we are looking at a big tragedy in Ferguson and we have one set of people saying something, second set of people saying something. Well, what if we had a video recording, a lot of this would be resolved and I tell you, if community members don't trust the officers, OK. Go out and do surveillance on us. Go ahead and walk the street and --

BALDWIN: The issue is transparency, absolutely, and I can feel that has nodding with you on that answer. Sunil Dutta, thank you so much for coming on.