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Dr. Drew
The Death of Michael Brown: Protests Growing Right Now
Aired August 20, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, city under siege. Eleven days and nights of stress, strain, and tension.
Michael Brown`s cousin is here exclusively. We`ll talk about what this is doing to his family, people of Ferguson, and the millions of us who
are watching.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. I`m in New York tonight. My co-host Samantha Schacher is in Los Angeles.
And coming up, we have an exclusive with Michael Brown`s cousin.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: That`s right, Dr. Drew.
We`re also going to show you some compelling video that was taken from someone in the middle of a demonstration that got pretty scary.
PINSKY: Yes, so dramatic video.
But first demonstrations were for the most part quiet last night until a few protesters thought it was a good idea to throw not just water
bottles, but bottles filled with urine at the police. Forty-seven were arrested. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here they go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Late in the night, water bottles hurled at police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They began throwing at bottles. They threw urine at police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suddenly, one water bottles flew into the direction of police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to stop throwing objects and disperse immediately.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We started chasing them on foot, they took the man down and now, we`ve got a very tough situation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s totally dissolved. The night had been ending peacefully.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are dog out here as well. People have their gas masks on. You can see I`m holding mine because we don`t know how
far this is going to go right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to get back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are people walking by my crying because this moment just happened. They were saying they wanted a completely
peaceful demonstration.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining us, Vanessa Barnett from HipHollywood.com, Lauren Lake, host of "Lauren Lake`s Paternity Court", Leeann Tweeden, social
commentator, host of "The Tomboys Podcast" on Blog Talk Radio, and I`ve got CNN correspondent Stephanie Elam in Ferguson.
Step, can you tell us what`s going on there right now as darkness falls on Ferguson?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right now, you`re seeing a truly peaceful demonstration out here. We ended up on a march from that main
strip where you just saw a piece from last night where people were assembling and protesting last night. Well, this group there, they marched
from there. We marched with them.
Here to this location across the street from the Ferguson police station, they assembled here, they hugged, they got into a circle, they did
a prayer, and they`re saying, look at all this peace. Their goal is to have a peaceful demonstration so show that they`re very unhappy about Mike
Brown, but at the same time they want the focus to be on making things right here and not having anymore of the tension that we kid see last
night.
For a moment there, it got a little scary. There was no tear gas. The police did tell us in the middle of the night there was not one bullet
shot from the police last night. So, that`s a good sign, they`re saying. And they`re hoping that this night continues in that vein, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Stephanie, one last quick question. Did last night start out this way, peacefully, the way it`s starting tonight or did last night have
more of an edge on it?
ELAM: Last night started out peaceful, it did. But there were a lot more people that came out by time the sun went down. When we were out
there, before we left the other area to walk even here, there were not nearly as many people.
But I`ve got to tell you that there was a lot of people from the community, when the tension started build up, and you can feel it, that the
police were lined up in the middle of the street. The protesters or the people who were remaining after the protest sort of broke up were watching
the police, the police were watching them. And you could feel that tension break up and the water bottle went and it all changed.
But after that, people in the community came up and they linked their arms together between the police and the community, saying we`re not going
to do that. So, people are being more proactive about it. I also saw police officers checking other police officers with their guns, which was
also something that really needed to happen. People were yelling at that to happen and they were putting their guns down instead of having them up,
like they were actually going to shot somebody. So, a big change --
PINSKY: Thanks, Stephanie.
I want to in fact show some footage from last night where an officer was caught on camera aggressively pointing a gun at a protester. This was
recently uploaded to YouTube.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My hands are up, bro. My hands are up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Get back! Get back!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to kill him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s trying kill people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s your name, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: Your name`s go (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
(EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, officer (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer (EXPLETIVE DELETED) yourself is trying to kill me. I hope you guys are watching. He had to be told by another
officer --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now that officer had been suspended for his actions. Lauren, how do we deal with actions like that when people are saying -- I`m a
little confused. Every night, I`m trying to get my head around this.
SCHACHER: I know.
PINSKY: The police say they need to be like that, but then when you see that kind of excessive force you wonder --
LAUREN LAKE, PATERNITY COURT: But, Dr. Drew, that`s not protocol. You can`t do that to citizens that are protesting. You hear someone going
I`ve got my hands up, I`ve got now hands up.
This is unacceptable. And the truth is, if an officer would do that when you know there is cameras everywhere, coverage, people with cell
phones, you would behave that way to a citizen. I mean, my heart is beating out of my chest just watching it.
PINSKY: Right.
LAKE: I fear for that person. And if that officer is in the position where that`s the only way he can conduct himself, he doesn`t need to be in
the environment. And I`m thankful that other cops kind of backed him up.
But this is what people are saying is happening and we need to stop dismissing them like they`re overreacting or they`re somehow causing these
situations.
They`re telling you, they are telling us, the police are mistreating us. They`re antagonizing us. They`re intimidating us.
And then there are certain people that are unfortunately acting out the wrong way and being violent towards the police. But this is scary.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Leeann, I`m used to hearing you say more to defend the police behavior. Would you defend -- was that just an outlier last
night?
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: We don`t know what happened before the cameras started rolling. We don`t know if that was instigating
the cop or not. That was completely wrong. That cop should be taken off, that beat, because having a gun pointed at you, he looked scared and he
shouldn`t have been there. He probably should have had some other guys with him backing him up.
But that was inappropriate and I do not defend what that cop did.
PINSKY: So, Vanessa, here we are again, with fear coming up right in the first opening elements of our show, fear on part of the people who were
getting the guns pointed at them, that cop looked scared. Fear every night.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Fear every night. But as Stephanie just mentioned, it is a much calmer scene now. People are
looking to move forward. People are looking to have the peaceful protests.
And I almost don`t want to give the negativity any more energy. I think this is not just one isolated incident. I`m sure there are several
police officers that are taking it way too far. But there are some that are lowering their guns. There are some that are telling each other, let`s
handle this in a different way.
And not everyone is throwing a water bottle. Some of these people are gathering peacefully and telling other people, hey, let`s not do that.
They`re policing themselves.
So, it seems to me that there`s a greater number of people that, let`s just get the answers, let`s move forward, let`s focus on Mike Brown and his
death and dealing with that scenario, instead of focusing on the water bottles and the Molotov cocktails, and all of the negative.
PINSKY: Yes, good tonight.
But, Sam, I`m worried -- I don`t know what the end game is here. What if people don`t feel like they get justice, do you know what I mean?
SCHACHER: That`s a scary thought, Dr. Drew. I think right now all of that community wants is transparency and accountability. I think that`s
what they want. I think that`s why they`re outraged.
PINSKY: I don`t think that will be enough. I don`t know.
SCHACHER: Well, I do like the idea that Vanessa said that we do need to honor the fact that there has been different tactics taken. We do see
police officers holding their guns down. We see more peaceful protesters. So, let`s focus on that.
And perhaps they should have different body language all together. Can you imagine if we saw one of these police officers and one of the
protesters hug? Where`s the human decency.
PINSKY: We`re going to hear from Evy to see if it`s appropriate for them to be acting like that. I know it sounds good to me but it may not be
-- as Lauren says -- protocol.
Panel stay with me. We`ll continue this conversation about the community, both sides of those police lines living in fear.
And later, Michael Brown`s cousin is here with me. I will speak to him exclusively. We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI HIGHWAY PATROL: When I got home last night at 3:30 in the morning, my wife was up. The lights were on. And
when I walked in the door, I knew that I was in trouble. She didn`t say hi, she said why didn`t you have your vest on?
And when I left today and I got here, the first text that I had on my phone is, "You promised".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Vanessa, Lauren and Leeann.
We`re monitoring the situation there in Ferguson, Missouri. I`ve going to go back to Stephanie in a minute, Stephanie Elam.
I love that guy. I think he`s doing a great job.
But before I get into the job that I think he`s doing, I want to bring up what I just said at the end of the last segment. I`m going to ask you,
Lauren -- what is the end game here? What`s it going to make to settle this down, how do you make it stop, and when are people going to feel they
have some satisfaction?
Last night, we decided we had to have conversation. I don`t know we had conversation, we moved things a little bit forward. Where do we do
with this?
LAKE: Well, it`s got to be dialogue. I was reflecting over the break about Vanessa`s comment that we want to get away from constantly talking
about the fear.
You know, I wish we could put this in a tiffany box with a beautiful white bow and give it like it was a gift. But that`s now how life happens.
And the violence and the fear are directly connected and ultimately fear is going to be in that courtroom if this ends up going to trial because the
officer is going to say, I was in eminent fear of my life.
PINSKY: What if they decide there was nothing inappropriate?
LAKE: This is exactly my point. At some point, we have to begin to dialogue about that fear, about the fear we see.
PINSKY: Here we are. We`re here tonight
LAKE: But, Dr. Drew, let me say this before I close. This same young man, tall in stature, he looks like my nephew or my husband or what my son
were probably going to look like. You put a helmet open a jersey on him, instead of being feared, he`s revered.
People have a problem with black men being feared so automatically. What we need to know as a community is what was this young man doing. And
we`re hoping the evidence shows us -- that made this officer so fearful that he would shoot to kill. Witnesses were saying he was running away and
still being shot at. We do not understand. We need answers and answers require dialogue but dialogue requires the truth. We`re not falling for
the okey-doke.
PINSKY: It requires facts. We need facts.
Vanessa?
(CROSSTALK)
BARNETT: In response to what Lauren said, I never said that we do not want to have the conversation about fear. I`d actually been very vocal in
the fact that irrational fear is the reason that Mike Brown might be dead today. It might be the run he`s dead today. It`s that irrational fear
that white man may have been fear of a black man for no apparent reason. I`ve been vocal about talking about that.
PINSKY: Yes. Listen, and, Vanessa, some of the craziness and some of the psychological literature I`ve seen shows that it`s not just white mean
fearing black men, it`s also black men fearing black men. What is that all about?
BARNETT: I think it`s America`s problem. It`s America`s problem. But in this case, unfortunately, it is a race issue with this case, because
the officer was white, and because Mike Brown is black. And there is that irrational fear. But I`ve said it last night, we need to if we`re going to
move forward, we`ve got to take it back and we can`t be afraid of that conversation.
PINSKY: Tell me about it.
BARNETT: If you walk down the street and you feel like you need to cross it because you see a black man, tell me so then we can have some
honest dialogue so I can say and give you a list of reasons why you don`t have to be.
PINSKY: Leeann?
TWEEDEN: I don`t think it was irrational fear because now that there`s -- we have -- it hasn`t been said by the police department, but
it`s said in the report that once the police officer was taken to the hospital, he had a broken orbital bone in his face. That means his eye
socket was punched and broken, OK? I`m sure he had fear. I don`t think that was irrational.
If that proves to be the case and all of the bullets were in the front --
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: -- that`s going to be proven as fact.
PINSKY: You can substantiate. We don`t know that. That`s right.
TWEEDEN: If that comes out, Dr. Drew --
PINSKY: Well, that`s my question, guys.
(CROSSTALK)
TWEEDEN: That`s not fear because he was black. That`s fear because he punched him.
BARNETT: But you can`t pick and choose which facts you listen to.
PINSKY: Vanessa, Vanessa --
TWEEDEN: If he has a broken socket bone, that`s a fact.
PINSKY: Vanessa, let`s just say for speculation, for get -- we`re sitting here speculating about stuff that we have no knowledge. Come on.
Let`s stop.
SCHACHER: Right.
BARNETT: Exactly.
PINSKY: Hang on, hang on. Let`s just say, Vanessa, my fear is, I`m having fear tonight, is that this will sort of -- there won`t be any sense
of justice and this conversation won`t go anywhere. You brought up some very courageous stuff last night talking about slavery and about how we as
Americans share an history that we seem to shrink from. Part of it is how we feel about one another and we`re afraid to be honest about that. I
totally agree with you on that.
How do we -- let`s say people don`t get a satisfying sense of justice out of there. How do you keep the conversation going forward?
BARNETT: You get satisfying justice when a truth --
PINSKY: Let`s say there he`s no satisfaction. Let`s say he doesn`t feel satisfied.
BARNETT: But we have to trust that this -- we have to trust that if the facts are presented and it shows that there`s this broken orbital bone
and it shows that he was the aggressor, we have to trust that the people that are out there protesting for the truth will then ingest the truth.
But we also heard reports that the officer grabbed his neck and pulls him into the car.
And I don`t want to discuss facts that we don`t know. I want to move the narrative forward.
PINSKY: Yes, please.
LAKE: Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: Who`s that?
LAKE: And, Dr. Drew, I think we have to acknowledge that part of this fear is that the community doesn`t feel like it will get the truth. And
so, as we talk about dialogue and trying to find it -- look, there`s so many issues here. People are calling for the prosecutor to recuse himself
because his father was shot by a black man 50 years ago, when we was on the police force because they don`t feel even this prosecutor will fight for
the truth as much as maybe an independent prosecutor.
It is mind-boggling how many layers there are so this.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Samantha.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHACHER: Wait. Can I get in here?
PINSKY: Samantha, last thought.
SCHACHER: OK. I think it`s really important to acknowledge that, yes, there`s a lot of residual pain and resentment because of social
injustices, like Oscar Grant and Trayvon Martin. And I think that leaks into situations like this.
But my only fear also, and I`m to blame as well, is this residual resentment and hurt, it is fogging us from being objective? I know it`s
fogged me from being objective and I want to own up to that. I`ve had a lot of great conversations with our DR. DREW HLN viewers that have helped
me to see not only advocating for Mike Brown, which I`ve done from the very beginning, but also trying, as Leeann just said, to try and look at it from
the officer`s perspective too.
And until we learn all the facts, I think we all need to remain objective, as hard as it is even for me.
PINSKY: All right. Listen --
TWEEDEN: And, Dr. Drew, Eric Holder is there. They said the investigation will probably take until October. So, it`s not going to be
quick. They want to get it right.
PINSKY: Which I`m all for. I just want -- there`s something else here that we need to pull away from he case and learn from it, keep the
conversation moving.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: I just get a little overwhelmed by it when all of the different layers start pouring out. I -- we`re having conversation.
TWEEDEN: Can I say one more thing?
PINSKY: No. I got to go to break because I have my exclusive with Michael Brown`s cousin. He says his heart was broken twice the day his
cousin was killed. He`s with us after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: These images were shot on surveillance cameras at Mumtaz Lalani`s store. Muzzle flashes can be seen as shots are fired into the
store front. And then looters ransack the liquor and cigarette cabinets. Later, two women even attempt to set the business on fire. Despite waves
of people rushing stores carrying boxes of goods to waiting cars or wig store mannequins left by the thieves, locals say, that these are only the
actions of a few.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want the attention to go on the people outside, sweeping the streets every morning. Neighbors coming out of their homes in
the backyard just to clean up their community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Lauren, joining us Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor of Pepperdine University. And now, Ty Pruitt is
with me. He`s Michael Brown`s cousin. He`s here with us, exclusively. And, Ty, obviously, our heart, on behalf of everyone here on my program, we
want to say that we`re sorry for your loss and our hearts go out to you.
My understanding is your heart break is double-fold because not only your cousin but your community was ripped apart by this.
TY PRUITT, MICHAEL BROWN`S COUSIN: Absolutely, my city.
First thing that broke my heart is the first time I saw my baby cousin and what happened was on Facebook. And I saw him lay in a pool of his own
blood. You can imagine how that felt.
And secondly, on top of that, my city is burning down because of what transpired. And --
PINSKY: May I ask --
PRUITT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: What`s it going to take to make this stop? That seems to be what`s on my mind tonight. I don`t know where the end game is. It feels
like it`s just going and going and I don`t know what it ends.
PRUITT: Well, it has to end with justice, Drew. It has to end with justice.
And here`s what I don`t understand and I always try to pride myself on being a pretty intelligent guy. And I look at what transpired between my
younger cousin and this police officer.
First of all, you need to understand my younger cousin was an 18-year- old kid. We`re talking about a kid. We`re not talking about an adult.
Yes, he may be old enough to drink, but he was a kid. And we`re talking about an adult trained police officer.
So, I heard -- I hear a lot of you guys talking about how this officer had his eye busted or maybe he had a black eye or something like this. And
I just have a couple of questions for you guys. First of all, every police officer is tactically trained, am I correct?
PINSKY: Yes.
PRUITT: Every police officer takes defensive training.
PINSKY: Yes.
PRUITT: So, what you`re telling me is, is that this police officer was such a coward and I`m going to say coward because we`re talking about a
grown man, a police officer, you`re hired to serve and protect. You`re supposed to protect the community, not go out and kill them.
Because you got punched in the eye, you chose to pull your weapon and empty six bullets into an 18-year-old kid. And I think that`s the part
that people are missing. We`re looking for all of these ways around this situation. Let`s just -- you guys mentioned the Trayvon Martin case.
Let`s go back to that for one second.
And we missed a key element in the Trayvon Martin case. The police officers told this guy: do not pursue this young man.
PINSKY: That`s true.
PRUITT: Yet, he did it anyway. So when you talk about getting justice, there was no justice for that case. So the people in the
community, the people in America, let`s say black people in general, have lost faith in the judicial system because this man walked.
Now, on top of that, let`s look at all of the precious gifts Zimmerman has given us since we released them. He then went back home, grabbed an
automatic weapon, shot at his girlfriend, as I understand it, beat her up. He`s been back in jail several times, am I correct?
PINSKY: I believe that`s true.
PRUITT: So, how are we supposed to look at society as black people when we see what happens? How are we supposed to look at this case?
PINSKY: Yes, Ty --
PRUITT: This is what this case is about. Michael Brown. This is what this case is about.
PINSKY: Listen, you`re raising all of my concerns that I`ve been sort of stewing in tonight, which is where do we go with this.
Lauren, I`ll defer to you. Can you help Ty answer that question for me, or can you answer that question on my behalf?
LAKE: I wish. It`s the million dollar question. Where we go from here is through the process.
PINSKY: Yes, but Ty is saying he has lost faith in the process.
LAKE: This is what exactly what I just said last segment. I know that. I can see anytime the community. They are protesting. They are
upset, even the looters who are acting crazy and violent. People are so outraged and upset because they feel like they do not have a voice. They
have no recourse and no one is hearing them.
But, Ty, what I would like to hear from you, because I hear your passion and I am just so sorry for your loss. What would you say to
Officer Wilson if he is listening now, because he is still a free man?
TY PRUITT, MICHAEL BROWN`S COUSIN: And, that in itself to me is so ridiculous that he is still out there. This is a man who -- and I am going
to answer your question in a few minutes. But, let is just understand that me looking at it from not only a black man from a family member.
This man got into an altercation with my baby cousin. He shot him four -- first of all, let me ask this question. Did the police in Ferguson
just give up on tasers? Were tasers just taken away from them? I mean are tasers outlawed in Ferguson nowadays?
PINSKY: You know, I asked that question last night of my specialist. She is coming in later. And, her explanation was that it takes too much to
pull the equipment out, he did not have time. She is speculating.
PRUITT: Oh, wow.
PINSKY: I am just saying. I asked the same damn question and apparently there are explanations for that. I am with you. I understand
what you are asking. Ty --
PRUITT: Because we did not want to take a couple more minutes or a couple more seconds to get a taser out, you are telling me my baby cousin
is about to be buried now? And, let is just be honest.
Let`s be honest because this is what I -- this is the part that I think everybody is missing. If you look at the autopsy report, there were
three shots to the arm. One shot to the chest. One shot to the eye socket.
The officer took a punch to the eye socket. My baby cousin took a bullet. And, the final shot was in the top of his head. From an upward
position when he was already down. And, this officer went on paid vacation? So, you wonder why the community is at unrest.
Now, does my family condone what they are doing? No, we do not want people out there looting. We do not want people out there burning down
QuickTrips. That is not going to bring my baby cousin back. That is not going to solve any issues.
PINSKY: It is not going to do anything. It is not going to do anything.
PRUITT: What we have to eventually do is start that conversation about racism in America. Let`s not just talk about racism in Ferguson. We
know it is there. We need to talk about racism and the problem is that -- Here is where the problem gets touchy.
PINSKY: Everywhere.
PRUITT: White people are scared to talk about it and black people are too mad to talk about it. So, we keep going in different directions. But,
at some point in time when we are talking about -- because, let`s just take -- let me hit you with this, Drew.
PINSKY: Ty, hang on a second. I got to beg for time from my producer. Can we do this?
PRUITT: OK. All right. Yes.
PINSKY: Hang on. Hang on. Ty -- I want Ty to challenge me with this and then we have to go to break. Go ahead, Ty. I want you to know that I
hear what you are saying and first of all I am going to take your challenge to try to engage the conversation from the white perspective of being
frightened and the African-American being too angry. I think that is a viable place to start. What else do you want to say?
PRUITT: OK. Let`s take this entire situation. Let`s take this entire situation. And, let`s say Captain Ron Johnson -- by the way, I
think he is doing a phenomenal job. I commend him for what he is trying to do down there. I am flying back into St. Louis in a couple of days and
hopefully I will get a chance to sit and talk with him and try and come up with an answer on how to solve the violence, on how to solve the issues
that are going on down there.
Maybe me and him can walk the streets together and try and talk to these people together. That is something that I want to do. But, let`s
hop back. Let`s take this situation. The first time I saw my baby cousin he was laying down face in a pool of his own blood. And, the officer was
standing over him.
So, let`s kind of switch that scenario. What if that was Officer Ron Johnson standing over a white 18-year-old laying in his own pool of blood
with six shots, two kill shots. How do you think the community -- as a matter of fact, how do you think America would have reacted?
Do you think this process would have went faster? Do you think we would be having a grand jury or do you think we would have been in open
court? How fast do you think they would have sent the attorney general in after that one? Where do you think Captain Ron Johnson would be right now?
On vacation or sitting behind bars?
PINSKY: We will take --
PRUITT: Those are the questions we need to ask ourselves.
PINSKY: I agree. We will take the challenge of that thought experiment and we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Rest in peace, Mike.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): Just when you think it is going to be peaceful when something else happens. It is war. It is a war between
the police and us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): The police get so aggressive with the protesters, that is how it really start. If you are going to walk with us,
talk with us. Have some sort of interaction with us. At least have a smile on your face. That is all I am saying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): They need to bring personal justice so these people can start to heal, so this can calm down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and my Behavior Bureau, Judy Ho, Danine Manette, Criminal Investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal" and Evy
Poumpouras, former special agent with secret service. Danine, you heard what the uncle was saying. What Michael Brown`s uncle was saying --
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Cousin.
PINSKY: Cousin. I beg your -- No, he is the -- Right, he is the cousin. I beg your pardon. Ty. Danine, I have not had a chance to talk
to you about this case. I am curious saying your thoughts.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Well, you know, I am a rational person. I am not an emotional person. And, I must say, I
disagree with pretty much everything I have heard on this show this entire week and this is why. I really do not think this case has anything to do
with fear.
I think that if that was indeed him in that store taking the clerk by the neck, pushing him up against the wall, taking his property and then
strolling down the middle of the street in broad daylight as, though, nothing had happened, I do not think that he was afraid of anything at that
point.
Especially, the fact, that he was not concern that a police officer drove by. I would expect a police officer to drive by if I had just done
that. I also do not think that a cop whose number one priority was to accost jaywalkers in the middle of the day also was in fear of anything. I
think that both of these individuals have a chip on their shoulder.
I think both of them were dealing with high egos and probably hatred and anger towards each other and that is what caused this situation. I
think we should take this away from talking about Mike Brown as the victim on the streets and more about talking about police brutality and heavy
handed tactics that are used by the police officers in these communities. I think that is where we need to focus our attention on this case.
PINSKY: All right. I am glad Evy is here to address it. Are things heavy handed or are they just what is necessary?
EVY POUMPOURAS, ON-AIR SECURITY AND INVESTIGATIVE ANALYST: It depends on the cop. It really does. It depends on the cop, on the county, on the
training. All of those things come into play. Now, for this situation, again, we do not know the facts. I think the stinging part here is the six
shots. You know, why fire six shots? That is why everyone --
PINSKY: Hung up, yes.
POUMPOURAS: That is the worse part of it. It is like if you shoot once, that should be enough, maybe even twice per se. But, why even go for
your handgun. I do agree with some of what Danine said and I have seen it firsthand where you have the cop versus the individual, the perpetrator,
whoever and it does -- sometimes it gets into an ego thing.
But also, one more thing when a cop decides to effect an arrest or an arrest needs to be made, they cannot simply just walk away. They need to
effect the arrest. Now, here may be, you could also argue perhaps that the cop should have ceased and desist it and then called for backup. And, then
later try to pursue the two individuals then all of this could have been avoided.
PINSKY: Judy, how do we get everyone together on this?
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I know.
PINSKY: I get a little bit frustrated and fell helpless here.
HO: Yes. I am so glad you asked that question, Dr. Drew, because here is the problem. With all of the authorities there and the families in
the community trying to do their thing, it is only leading to more aggression, because they are not aligned on their goals.
Now, there has been tons of research on this, Dr. Drew, as you know. There was a very famous study called the Robber`s Case Study where they
pitted people, who they did not even know each other. And, as soon as they reside, and they did not have the same goals, they were throwing stuff at
each other and being aggressive. How do you come back from that? You have to align again on the same goal. Whatever that goal is --
PINSKY: But, I keep asking. I have asked that ten times tonight and I cannot get anybody to get any traction in that direction.
MANETTE: I will give you some traction.
(LAUGHING)
HO: Well, right. And, it has to start with something very simple, Dr. Drew. It has to start with just bringing the community back to their
baseline.
PINSKY: All right.
HO: If we could start there, that would be helpful.
PINSKY: All right. You, guys -- And, Danine, I am going to hear what that traction is going to be in just a second.
MANETTE: OK.
PINSKY: Be right back after this.
(COMMERFCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Evy, Danine and Vanessa. And, before the break Judy mentioned having clear goals is important to getting us through
this crisis. I have been asking tonight what the end game is. Danine, you say you have some traction on this point. What is it?
MANETTE: I have a couple of suggestions. Number one, when you have the majority white police forces that are patrolling around, and actually
setting up a military state in these air city communities. There is nothing but hostility and mistrust between the too.
These police departments need to do a better job of outreach from a young level, getting programs to get the young people in the community
involved. So, that number one the police officers see those kids and those people as human beings and that the people in the community feel as,
though, they are connected with the officer --
PINSKY: Danine -- I think community-based policing with a force that reflects the make of the community --
MANETTE: Exactly.
PINSKY: But, listen -- But, Sam, we had people criticizing Ron Johnson, the African-American cop, the guy that solicited this whole force
for being too chum my with the protesters. What is that all about?
SCHACHER: Yes. I actually have a letter. Do you want me to read it, an open letter that was posted and shared 73,000 times on Facebook.
PINSKY: Sure. Sure. You bet.
SCHACHER: This was written by the Alabama Police Chief criticizing Captain Johnson. He writes, "Capt. Johnson, your words during the day on
Friday helped to fuel the anger that was still turning just below the office f surface. St. Louis County Police were told to remain uninvolved.
And, at that night, the riding and looting begin again. For much too long, it went on mostly unchecked. Retired St. Louis County Police Chief Tim
Fitch tweeted that "Your hug a looter policy had failed, boy did it."
PINSKY: Evy.
MANETTE: That is the problem.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: Well, people are taking aim at that. Evy, what do you say? What is going on here? I thought most people agree that community-based
policing is what would solve this problem.
SCHACHER: Right.
POUMPOURAS: Community-based policing, community-oriented policing would have helped to prevent this from even starting. Having a
predominantly white police force compared to a predominantly black community is wrong. Even just on perception, assuming that they were just,
it is wrong.
You need to have a diverse culture within the police department, so that the community feels fair. That is one thing. The other thing as far
as how it is being handled. A lot of these police counties do not have proper training when it comes to riot training. This is where we are
seeing a lot of problems. Earlier on in the segment you showed the police officer pointing his weapon at someone.
You do not ever do that ever unless you are thinking about pulling that trigger. And, you do not think about pulling that trigger unless
there is a serious eminent threat. Obviously, from what we saw there was none at that point. So, yes, I do think there is -- all these factors
coming in, which are not allowing the situation to be handled appropriately.
PINSKY: OK. All right. Vanessa. Help me, here, my darling Vanessa. You see what is happened to me tonight? I have been spun around in the
spin cycle trying to get answers. Help me.
SCHACHER: Yes.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely, but I think we are creating some solutions here. And, I think another one we need to look at
is getting these protesters together and preparing them for the fact that they may not get the justice they feel they deserve.
PINSKY: OK.
BARNETT: That is a very real possibility they may never see an arrest.
PINSKY: I think you are right.
BARNETT: They may never see a guilty verdict and we need to able to prepare them for that and still say the fight keeps going. This is a 24/7,
365 fight and it does not stop because you did not get the answer we want at that time.
PINSKY: All this good stuff we have stirred up, we do not let it settle down. We keep it moving. We keep the talk going and we are going
to keep it going right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POUMPOURAS: As a law enforcement officer when you are dealing day to day in with individuals who just lie to you, who despise you --
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. It is got to be hard.
POUMPOURAS: You know, I want to say one thing. I remember when I went through the police academy, and I will never forget this. We were
running here on the FDR, nearest the police academy and this is pre9/11. So, nobody liked law enforcement.
And, we were running and people were driving by on the FDR Highway doing 50 and 60 miles an hour and they were spitting at us. They were
giving us the finger. And, I remember thinking what did I do? I just want to serve and protect. And, then it is just that, that perception that a
lot of people hate law enforcement and we have to figure out why is that and solve that.
PINSKY: How do we heal this and create more trust? That is the question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was for our social media audience. Back with Sam, Danine, Evy, Vanessa. So, Danine, what is the answer here. You are part
of the complex, are not you?
MANETTE: Yes. And, you know, my husband is trained law enforcement and I have worked in the community for 24 years now. The thing is that
when I heard that letter that Sam was reading, that is exactly the problem. It is such a closed society that they will not let anyone else in.
I had a family member that tried to get on with open police department but because he was raised in the projects, he was not allowed to
get in because they thought his loyalty was to the people in the projects and not to the police department.
PINSKY: Hold on.
MANETTE: And, so, rather than you being a bridge to the community, they considered him to be someone else.
PINSKY: I want to stop you. Evy, you made the point over and over again, selecting people carefully for these jobs is important. It seems
like that would be a good selection.
MANETTE: Right, but they try to keep people out that they do not trust.
POUMPOURAS: You know, that is a difficult thing for any to discuss because I do not know the selection process of that department.
PINSKY: In particular, yes.
POUMPOURAS: I mean I was part of the recruitment process for the U.S. Secret Service, I will tell you that. And, we did polygraphs, we did
thorough assessments. We interviewed people at their home. We did everything. And often when we would not accept someone, we usually did not
tell them why. We would just eliminate them for whatever reason we thought that they would not make a proper agent.
MANETTE: Exactly.
POUMPOURAS: But, we would have to have a sustainable reason. It was not as simply like we do not like you. We do not think you are going to do
a good job. I mean there was something there that is tangible.
PINSKY: And, Sam, I mentioned last night that I was the object of police brutality and the guy that did it to me was an African-American guy.
But, I never gave it another thought. I certainly did not worry about another black guy doing that to me with a uniform. It did not stay with
me.
SCHACHER: Because you do not have the residual history that, unfortunately, the African-American community does. That is something we
need to discuss because we cannot relate.
PINSKY: Vanessa, go.
BARNETT: Absolutely. And, I said the word slavery on yesterday`s episode and I got so many tweets.
PINSKY: Good or bad?
BARNETT: It is a mere bad. At the mere mention of the word slavery. It is not that we want to live in that moment. It is not that we even want
to rehash what happened then. We need to talk about the residual effects and how they do carry over to 2014. They carry over.
PINSKY: I will say it again, intergenerational transmission of trauma.
BARNETT: Absolutely.
PINSKY: It goes over hundreds of years. Many different traumatized populations have proven that over again. And, I agree to this, we have got
to get into the conversation.
MANETTE: But, Dr. Drew, just because we do share this common history, that does not mean we all have the same common experience. My children
know how to act when they see the police. They know to be respectful and polite.
PINSKY: Yes, but we all -
MANETTE: They are not fearful.
PINSKY: We all share this history. It is American history. It is American history and we have to start looking at that and not be divisive
about it. We have to stop saying you, them, they had, we have. We have this history and we need to work on it and solve it and not let any
divisive rhetoric or divisive circumstance get in the way of that. People have speculated -- Thomas Jefferson speculated it would take us 200 years
to get through this. And, here we are -- Vanessa, do you disagree? You got less than 30 seconds.
BARNETT: No. I agree. We need to get into the meat of it and by saying that you had that experience but also recognizing that your
perception of that is not what happens on the grander scale. We need to have conversations like that.
PINSKY: Got to go. Forensic Files next.
END
