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NANCY GRACE

Did Michael Brown Beat Police Officer Before Shooting?

Aired August 20, 2014 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. After 10 nights of extreme violence, the city of Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart -- tear gas, Molotov

cocktails -- after an unarmed teen shot dead by a cop in the street en route to his grandmother`s, bombshell tonight. As we go to air, a secret

grand jury meets. Will the police officer be indicted?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Throwing bottles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Disperse immediately!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They threw urine on officers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: State prosecutors expected to start presenting evidence to a grand jury.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And to Arizona. They meet on a work trip, but the flame burns down and they break up. But it`s only then she moves 300 miles to chase

him, even converting to Mormonism to get her man. Twenty-seven-year-old Jodi Arias has wild sex with 30-year-old lover Travis Alexander all day,

even photographing the sex. But just minutes after sex, she slashes his throat ear to ear, shoots and stabs Travis 29 times, leaves his body to rot

in the shower.

Tonight, as Jodi Arias`s retrial set to commence, she fires her lawyers, says she`ll represent herself, Arias`s lawyers ordered by the

judge to at least sit at the table even he begs, Judge, please set me free from Jodi Arias, in the last hours, the court rules.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS, CHARGED WITH MURDER: He lunges at me like a linebacker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me the linebacker pose. That`s what I`m asking for you to do.

ARIAS: He went like that.

He screams out, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I`ll kill you bitch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This from a woman who pretends to be the victim, even though there`s no abuse.

ARIAS: These are some of my drawings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Bombshell tonight. After 10 nights of extreme violence, the city of Ferguson, Missouri, ripped apart -- tear gas, Molotov cocktails, bottles of

urine -- after an unarmed teen shot dead by a cop in the street, the teen en route to his grandmother`s, tonight, as we go to air, a secret grand

jury is meeting. Will the police officer be indicted?

We go live straight to the scene. Standing by, Evan Perez, CNN justice reporter. Evan, thank you for being with us. The grand jury

meeting -- what do you know?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, we know that the grand jury meeting began this afternoon, late this afternoon. The prosecutor,

Robert McCulloch, told reporters that he expects that this will be a long process, that they`re going to start hearing evidence, and probably, this

will be a process that goes until October. So we`re not going to see any kind of resolution any time soon.

He says that every piece of evidence, everything from video, from witness statements, forensic evidence is going to be presented to the jury,

and he wanted to make that sure people knew that this was going to take a while and they should have patience (INAUDIBLE)

GRACE: Now, hold on! Evan joining me, CNN justice reporter there on the scene. A secret grand jury is meeting to determine whether or not the

shooter, the police officer, is going to be indicted in the death of an unarmed teen there in Ferguson.

Evan, why is it going to take two months to hand down a true bill or a no bill on the officer?

PEREZ: Well, you know, Nancy, he`s basically taking this route because he says that he wants to make sure everything is done properly.

He`s says he`s assigned the most experienced prosecutors in his office to handle this case. And he`s obviously under a lot of criticism in this

community by people who say he`s too close to the police, that -- because of his own personal experience. His father was shot and killed by a black

man some time ago, some -- when he was a child.

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wait!

PEREZ: And there`s a lot of people who say...

GRACE: Back it up! Back it up! What happened is his father`s a police officer, gets to the scene, and right as his father rounds the

corner, he`s gunned down in the line of duty.

PEREZ: Right. Exactly.

GRACE: The perp was given the death penalty. That was later reversed on appeal and reduced to life behind bars. Another interesting thing about

this police officer -- about this DA is suffered from leg cancer. And he said being the county prosecutor was second best to being a police officer,

which was his chosen line of duty. He couldn`t do it.

So wait a minute. He`s not presenting the case to the grand jury himself, Evan?

PEREZ: Well, we don`t know if he`s personally doing it. Obviously, this is a secret process. But we do know that he says that he`s closely

watching this case and overseeing this case. And obviously, you know, that`s -- that`s -- this is part of the criticism here.

He`s also taking some shots at the governor, as you know, Nancy, because the governor himself had weighed in and removed the county police

from overseeing some of the security after some of the disturbances here on the streets here in Ferguson.

And he also himself is criticizing the governor for not basically backing him up -- backing him up today, the governor basically saying that

he`s not going to ask for the prosecutor to step aside, but that, you know, if it`s something...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute!

PEREZ: ... the prosecutor wants to do...

GRACE: Wait a minute!

PEREZ: ... he`ll have to do it himself.

GRACE: Wait a minute! Now, I`m not siding with the police tonight. I`ve got Daryl Parks about three feet away from me, and that would not be a

good move. Let me ask you this, though. In the prosecutor`s defense, the elected district attorney`s defense, what -- are you telling me the

governor is saying he might should be thrown off the case because his father was gunned down in the line of duty as a police officer?

PEREZ: Well, you know, the governor is not saying that. He`s basically just leaving it open and saying that he himself is not going to

call for the prosecutor to step aside. He`s not exactly being -- very forcefully defending the prosecutor, and I think that annoyed Mr. McCulloch

today. He basically said...

GRACE: Well, I don`t like this at all.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Evan -- Evan Perez joining me. Evan, I mean, I don`t even know how many cases that I prosecuted. I`m a victim of crime. I`m a crime

victim. My fiance was murdered just before our wedding. Does that mean every case I ever took to a jury should be thrown out because I`m a crime

victim? I don`t even like where this is going! But I`ll pick back up on that. I want to hear from you.

Everybody, with me, Evan Perez, joining me in Ferguson as a secret grand jury is meeting to determine whether the shooter, the cop that gunned

down an unarmed teen, will face murder charges.

So Evan, back to this October date. That`s two months to hear the case? Number one, why isn`t the elected district attorney presenting the

case himself to the grand jury? And number two, why is it going to take two months? Isn`t there an election in November, so by the time this is

either a true bill or a no bill, it`ll be too late for anybody to qualify to run for district attorney?

PEREZ: Well, you know, that`s the backdrop of this case. It`s messy from the beginning. You know, look, there`s some issues here with the

police. They`re on the streets. They`re stretched thin trying to secure the streets, to stop some of the troubles that they have at night. And so

you know, they`re not being -- they probably have the resources pretty stretched thin.

And right now, we also know that the FBI is going door to door, interviewing some of these witnesses. They`ve interviewed witnesses, we`re

told, that even the county detectives have not been able to get to. I`m not saying that this is exactly the reason why it`s going to take so long.

I think what this prosecutor is basically saying is that he`s going to try to do this very carefully, very slowly to make sure that there are no

mistakes that are made.

GRACE: OK, let me understand this. Evan Perez joining me, everybody, the CNN justice reporter on the ground in Ferguson. It`s my understanding

there are, what, 12 grand jurors meeting. And this does not have to be unanimous, it can be 9 out of 12 to vote for an indictment, a true bill or

a no bill, which means they don`t charge the officers. Nine out of 12, correct?

PEREZ: That`s right. That`s right, 9 out of 12. Three fourths of the grand jury has to agree on these charges. And obviously, it`s one-

sided, right? This is only the prosecutor`s side of the story. There`s no side of the story from officer -- from the police officer here. So you

know, everybody expects...

GRACE: Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait a minute! Wait, wait, wait!

PEREZ: ... that the typical -- typically...

GRACE: Evan, Evan, Evan! Hold on, buddy. Hold on. Now, you just said the grand jury proceeding is one-sided. But that -- that -- I don`t

think that`s entirely accurate. A grand jury proceeding is very simply one of two things, an investigative grand jury or a charging tool. We`re not

there to hear the defense`s side. All these 12 people are doing...

PEREZ: Right. Exactly.

GRACE: ... are trying to decide is there enough evidence, probable cause to indict this case so a petite...

PEREZ: Different charges.

GRACE: ... or 12-person jury can hear it and render a verdict that speaks the truth. There`s no need to hear the defense right now.

However, it`s my understanding that the officer can elect to come and testify in front of the grand jury. Do you foresee that, Evan? Do you

think the officer is going to testify?

PEREZ: You know, I don`t know whether that`ll be allowed to happen. I mean, it certainly -- you obviously have some experience in this. And if

I were his lawyer, I wouldn`t let that happen. Obviously, this is something you would want to make sure that you want to see what evidence

the state has before you even let your -- your client -- before you let the police officer...

GRACE: Well, you know what, Evan?

PEREZ: ... even say anything.

GRACE: You make a very, very good point. Typically, you would not want your client in there, in a grand jury. However, in this case, this

grand jury may be very prone to believing the police officer. So my point is, if the police officer testifies and the grand jury believes him, that

would nip this case in the bud. It would never go beyond a grand jury. There would never be a trial.

Everybody, for those of you just joining us, a secret grand jury is meeting as we speak, all through this afternoon, we understand into the

evening, to determine whether to indict the police officer that gunned down an unarmed teen.

Joining me here on the set, Daryl Parks, who is joining us. He is taking the side of Michael Brown. He is the lawyer for Michael Brown`s

family.

All right, Daryl Parks, we are gets reports, and I`m reading directly from wires, that state that the officer, the police officer who gunned down

Michael Brown, suffered -- OK, let me just phrase -- let me phrase this. I`ve had reporters that did not want to come on the air tonight because

they are afraid to tell you, to state publicly what I`m about to tell you, because they are afraid of threats, OK?

But I`m going to tell you that there are reports this police officer has suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital eye socket

fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by your clients` son, Michael Brown, before firing his gun.

Now, do I know this to be true? I do not. These are reports coming out of the prosecution`s camp. And I am wondering what your response is.

I want to hear it from you, Daryl, because if Michael Brown beat this cop in the face to start things off, then no jury in this -- no grand jury is

going indict him.

DARYL PARKS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, Nancy, without question, we know that there was a major altercation at the car.

There`s no question about that. So you`ll never hear me say there wasn`t a major altercation within the car. There was even a gunshot...

GRACE: Well, with the car...

PARKS: Within the car.

GRACE: ... or at the car?

PARKS: At the car.

GRACE: So you say it happened in the car?

PARKS: The officer was still partially in the car, is what we`ve been told. Now, take into consideration in this case that we have a video of

the officer right after. He`s standing there with the other officer...

GRACE: Let`s see the video that Daryl Parks is referring to. This is the one taken by Piaget Crenshaw (ph), where the officer is pacing

around...

PARKS: Yes.

GRACE: ... just after shooting Michael Brown. I don`t know that that`s it. Go ahead.

PARKS: That`s -- there you go. There you go.

GRACE: There you go. That`s it.

PARKS: Now, that guy doesn`t appear to be in distress right there. He`s not holding his eye. He`s not bleeding from his eye.

GRACE: We don`t know that that`s the actual officer. But if it is, that`s the observation I made just before we went to air. If that is the

officer on the right, right there...

PARKS: Yes.

GRACE: ... if that`s him...

PARKS: That`s my belief.

GRACE: ... he does not look like his face is bleeding. He doesn`t look like he`s near unconsciousness, from -- I mean, from what we can see.

Go ahead. But I mean, the medical records are going to tell this, Daryl, if he gets to the hospital. Doctors aren`t going to lie to cover for the

police. If he`s got an orbital socket wound...

PARKS: He may have had an injury. However, you see on that tape right there that the -- it`s not the type of injury that`s incapacitating.

It`s not so serious that he`s getting medical treatment right then. He`s there talking to his fellow officer, probably talking about what just

happened.

GRACE: Let`s see the video again, please, Liz.

Everyone, another night of violence rocking the city of Ferguson. Joining me right now, in addition to Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael

Brown`s family, and Shawn Parcells, who helped perform the autopsy on Michael Brown, Lieutenant General Russel L. Honore from Baton Rouge,

Louisiana, U.S. Army, retired, author of "Leadership and the New Normal."

Lieutenant General Russel (sic), thank you for being with us. Could you please explain to me what you believe should be done in Ferguson to

quell the violence.

LT. GEN. RUSSEL HONORE, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, they had a good start last night, Nancy, by integrating the police among the demonstrators, as

opposed to police standing back and observing the demonstrators and separation. So they`ve integrated in.

They need to have the capability to turn the lights on in that area that they`re demonstrating in. Lights always take (ph) down people doing

crazy things.

The other thing the police have to come to grips with -- people go from demonstrating, exercising their 1st Amendment right to civil

disobedience. So when you go into crowd control, having done this many times myself, as on the government side of this, that you can expect stuff

thrown at you. You cannot respond to everything like water bottles or even bottles that might be filled with urine. It`s going to happen.

GRACE: You know what, Lieutenant General Russel (sic)...

HONORE: The only way (INAUDIBLE) Yes?

GRACE: Isn`t it true that you personally faced 100,000 protesters in South Korea? How did you handle that?

HONORE: We handled it -- we didn`t point guns at anybody. The worst thing we did was we brought the fire trucks up to back them off my gate

because they were trying to break into our camp.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. With me and taking your calls is the attorney for Michael Brown`s family, Daryl Parks. Also with us, Lieutenant

General Russel L. Honore from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, who handled protests during Katrina, also in South Korea, facing down 100,000 protesters. Also

with us, Dr. William Morrone, medical examiner out of Madison Heights, and Shawn Parcells, the forensic consultant who actually helped perform the

autopsy on Michael Brown.

Let`s go straight out to Parcells and Morrone. Shawn Parcells, first to you. I`m sitting here, going over and over this with Daryl Parks. And

at first, either Parks or Crump told me that -- and I`ve gone back and researched what they said -- that Michael Brown was running away when he

was shot, all right? We know that not to be true. He was shot front to back.

Now, throw in this lair (ph). Where is Shawn Parcells? Can I see him, please? We now know, according to witnesses, that what they said may

be correct, that Brown was running away and turned around back towards the cop. Therefore, if the shots were fired then, that would explain front to

back.

Now, what I don`t get is the shots coming down from the head downward, and I`d like to you show me and Morrone that and give me your explanation.

How does that fit into the scenario that Michael Brown`s family and Daryl Parks, sitting here with me, is urging?

SHAWN PARCELLS, FORENSICS CONSULTANT: OK. One thing to be clear, as I pointed out yesterday, both of the shots, the one to the front forehead

right above the right eyebrow, and the one to the very top or apex of the head, was coming in at an angle, this direction. So as you said yesterday,

Nancy, it`s going back to front.

What we really need to understand with this is to understand Michael Brown`s height compared to Officer Darren Wilson`s height. If Officer

Darren Wilson`s height is shorter than Michael Brown -- and keep in mind, Michael Brown was 6-foot-4. He`s a tall kid.

GRACE: Yes, the officer is shorter.

PARCELLS: OK. So the officer is shorter. If he is holding his weapon out in a straight direction, as they`re trained to do, you know,

through police training...

GRACE: Right.

PARCELLS: ... then the only way to achieve these angles -- if he -- if Michael Brown was to get these angles...

GRACE: Show me on your...

PARCELLS: ... charging...

GRACE: Show me exactly what you`re saying. Yes, OK, show me the trajectory. If Brown had turned back toward the officer and?

PARCELLS: OK. So he`s turned back towards the officer.

GRACE: Right.

PARCELLS: Now, let`s just say, I -- someone asked me and I don`t know when, but someone asked me, Well, that supports the theory that Mr. Brown

was bum-rushing or bull-heading at the officer. Well, if that was true, then the only way to get that angle, because he is taller than Officer

Wilson, would be for his head to almost be like this, his chin down at his chest and he`s...

GRACE: Got it. OK.

PARCELLS: I don`t know who runs that way. Now, I`m not saying...

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this, Shawn. If you could give it to me in a nutshell and dummy it down for me, all right?

PARCELLS: Sure. Sure.

GRACE: What other scenario is there for that trajectory angle?

PARCELLS: The other scenario that makes more sense to me is the fact that to get that angle, Mr. Brown`s head is almost to the ground...

GRACE: All right...

PARCELLS: ... and the barrel of the weapon is pointed downwards.

GRACE: OK, to Dr. William Morrone, joining me out of Madison Heights. Dr. Morrone, weigh in.

DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, the evidence is supported exactly how Shawn Parcells has

said it. But I disagree with one part, is that he said he would have to have, you know, tipped down very far. I think when you look at the axis of

the neck and the head and you have an opportunity, the first bullet that went in here had enough force, was going 180 miles an hour, and it hit in

the orbit and turned 90 degrees going straight down into the jaw.

GRACE: Wait. Are you saying it bounced off a bone?

MORRONE: It went off the bone and down through, into the chest, which would have put his chin down. If you put force on an object here, it sits

(ph) it down. And I can foresee being a weapon discharged into the apex...

GRACE: I`m sorry, Dr. Morrone. I respect the both of you immensely, but I`ve never heard of a bullet taking a U-turn.

MORRONE: In dense bone, always. Every bullet that enters the body becomes an object that can take a different turn. We see that sometimes in

the arm when a bullet exits. Especially dense bone in the head going into the eye socket, it goes 90 degrees, turns down, and then it has an exit

wound at the jaw and it goes into his clavicle. And that`s very common, especially -- and it happens in shrapnel in war, too.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Breaking news tonight. After another night of violence in Ferguson, Missouri, now reports leaking out that the police officer in this

case -- and I have actually had someone refuse to report this on the air out of fear of threats -- Michael -- the police officer whose fatal

shooting of Michael Brown touches off a week of demonstration -- that officer now allegedly suffering severe facial injuries, including an

orbital or eye socket fracture, nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun.

Now we`ve heard a lot about that, we`ve heard a lot about Michael Brown shoplifting a cigar, let`s see the video, in a Quik Trip before this.

We heard that he had pot in his system. We`ve heard a lot. All of that is completely irrelevant. The only thing this picture shows me is how tall

Brown is. Nobody ever said he was an angel.

At this hour, a grand jury is hearing secret proceedings as to whether or not to indict this police officer. We are live there at Ferguson, and

joining me, Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael Brown`s family, Sean Parcells who helped perform the autopsy on Michael Brown, and the esteemed

Lieutenant General Russell L. Honore, U.S. Army retired, author, he ran security at Katrina and South Korea. Do we have Honore with me, Liz?

Lieutenant General, I remember you during Katrina facing down police officers, yelling at them "put that gun down." So I`m very anxious to hear

what you have to say, and you managed 100,000 protesters in Korea without firing a shot. Now, tell me again, we got as far as lighting the area,

what more should Ferguson police be doing to stop violence? We already got another dead body, a 23-year-old was shot yesterday.

HONORE: Well, make sure they have a good rest plan for those officers, they have a week out. Most of them have been working extra

shifts. Those 18-hour days get caught up with you and you get frayed nerves. So they need to look at how they are taking care of their troops

and rotating them out and making sure they get proper rest.

No. 2, they need to provide a place for the people to assemble and express their First Amendment right. Put a microphone up. Put a stage up.

Facilitate the people. The people are angry because this young man got killed. But -- so facilitate them. Work with the people. When they

worked with the people last night, people expressed their First Amendment right, then you had people who moved on to civil disobedience. The police

need to understand that civil disobedience is a natural part of a protest like this. When it happens, if you overreact, you`re playing right in the

hand of the demonstrators that force the police to overreact, and all that is being caught on tape. So what`s the people`s point is? The police are

too aggressive.

I think if you do those things, Nancy, and stop shooting tear gas on these people. It makes no sense. It adds to the people`s narrative, that

the police are over-militarized and overly aggressive.

GRACE: With me is Lieutenant General Russel L. Honore out of Baton Rouge. Colin Jeffrey with me, KTRS. Colin, thank you for being with us.

Colin, a secret grand jury is meeting to determine whether or not this police officer is going to be indicted.

I got a couple of questions for you. No. 1, why is it going to take until October? I also want to find out is the election for this elected

district attorney in November. Daryl Parks, let me throw that to you very quickly. Hold on, hold on. I`m hearing in my ear right now with me is

Phillip Holloway, former police officer and prosecutor. Phillip, the police actions in Ferguson, too much?

HOLLOWAY: Well, that remains to be seen. You know, the ultimate question, of course, for this grand jury and the public that we need to

know was this officer in reasonable fear for life or limb. If he was, of course, he`s authorized to use self-defense to protect himself or to

protect others. If he overreacted and the evidence supports an allegation or even an indictment he committed a crime, then of course he`s going to be

held to account.

GRACE: Daryl Parks, what about it?

PARKS: Without question. I think the problem here is the most serious evidence here is the fact that we know without no one contradicting

the fact that this officer started shooting at Michael as he was running away, so there was no threat. That part alone showed that he was not

acting appropriately.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Breaking news tonight, another night of violence in Ferguson, Missouri. As we go to air, a grand jury has been meeting all day in secret

to determine whether they will indict the officer that gunned down the unarmed teen. Now evidence is leaking out that the police officer suffered

severe facial injuries, including an orbital or eye socket fracture, nearly beaten unconscious by Brown just moments before firing his gun. With me,

Sean Parcells, who helped perform the autopsy on Michael Brown, also with me the lawyer for Michael Brown`s family, Daryl Parks. We are taking your

calls. Missy in Michigan. Hi, Missy, what`s your question?

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for take my call. I`ve been following this case. I haven`t heard anything about if there was a voice recorder of

any type on the officer. And if not, will it change protocol in the future?

GRACE: Are you referring to a dash cam or a cam on the officer`s person? There was not. Colin Jeffrey, KTRS news director, let`s follow up

on that. It`s my understanding that all that equipment was actually in Ferguson but it had not been implemented, no dash cam, no recording

equipment on the officer himself. Is that correct?

JEFFREY: That`s exactly what we heard just shortly after the shooting I guess last week now is when we learned that. They do have much of the

dash cams in the police station, but what we`re actually told is they are still there in boxes. So understandably adding to frustration, because you

wonder if a piece of equipment like that might have been able to give that eyewitness account that doesn`t lie, that isn`t shaky, what happened.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: The grand jury is meeting today. They have been meeting in secret. That`s not nefarious, that is not unusual. Grand juries always

meet in secret. And what they do in grand jury typically remains a secret because what they hear is not bound by the rules of evidence. They can

hear, hearsay, they can hear double, triple hearsay, they can hear so much more than what is allowed in front of a 12-member jury. That`s why grand

jury proceedings remain secret. Colin Jeffrey, do you anticipate this police officer testifying in his own behalf in front of this grand jury in

the hopes of getting a no bill?

JEFFREY: Well, do I anticipate I`m not certain. I will tell you he`s eligible because he`s an eyewitness. He wouldn`t be testifying as Officer

Wilson, the person; he would be testifying as any other officer would in a situation would. He saw the crime or the shooting, and that would mean he

could provide information there. We haven`t heard from either side again, the Ferguson police department still being very tight-lipped with the

officer`s location, and again, we haven`t been able to confirm the severity of the injuries because the officer has not been available to the media.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining me, Eleanor Odom, death penalty qualified sex crimes prosecutor, and qualified, as I said, to try death

penalty cases. Also with me, Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta. Let`s just rip away the shroud of secrecy surrounding the grand jury to

both of you. Peter, before you were a defense attorney, you were a prosecutor. I assume at some point you presented to the grand jury. I

did, and for a long time, and when I had a special investigation I would present it to the grand jury myself. And take it all the way through to

the petite (ph) jury and on up and argue to the appellate courts myself.

Now the grand jury -- the state cannot force this police officer to testify. All right. I don`t care if they call it eyewitness or what they

call it. You cannot bring on a target or a defendant when you know they are going to take the Fifth Amendment. Absolutely not.

P. ODOM: He maintains his Fifth Amendment right. But I`ll tell you that it is likely he`ll testify. I will tell you if he were my client in

this investigative grand jury, I would put him in front of that, I would put him in front of the grand jury. And I would have him testify.

Remember --

GRACE: Eleanor?

E. ODOM: I would bring in the officer too, because you want everything above board. You want to present every piece of evidence.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Eleanor, are you speaking as the state or are you speaking as the defense for the officer?

E. ODOM: No. I`m speaking as the state, because you want to bring everything in.

GRACE: They can`t force the officer in.

E. ODOM: Right.

GRACE: He`s got to be willing to come in. I agree with Peter, I would put the cop up, if I were his defense lawyer, and let him testify.

Back to Daryl Parks and Sean Parcells and Dr. William Morrone. All right. Sean Parcells, you heard what Dr. Morrone said as far as these injuries.

What do you make? Let`s see that graphic that Dr. Morrone made for us, where he says the shot could have gone into Michael Brown`s head, hit bone

and come straight out as they have been describing a re-entry wound coming out of the body. What do you make of that, Sean Parcells? Have you ever

thought of that theory before?

PARSELLS: Well, yes. And actually I`ve seen it before in other autopsy cases. But in this particular autopsy case, the bullet was not

initially traveling in this direction. It was already traveling this direction above the eye, because the abrasion ring --

GRACE: It was not going straight down.

PARSELLS: The abrasion ring indicates that both the bullet that hit here and here were already coming in at those angles when they hit the

skin.

GRACE: But not straight down. I didn`t understand them going straight down. I thought they were going back to front.

PARSELLS: No, the angle back to front. They were already initially in that.

GRACE: Still, if they hit bone -- if they hit bone as Morrone is describing. Morrone, go through it one more time. You`re claiming that

this shot to Michael Brown could be when Brown is charging the police officer, is that what you`re saying, or that it`s impossible that he was

charging the police officer?

MORRONE: I`m not saying that he was charging the police officer, I`m saying that any time a missile enters the body, we consider it to recoil

off of other bones or hard objects. We know well that our bones and ribs redivert bullets, and there`s nothing more dense than the head.

Now, I have to defer to Shawn Parcells, because he was in the autopsy and I just get diagrams and reports. But it is very possible the orbit is

a cup, and it could redirect the bone, (inaudible), and it did come off the jaw, and that`s 180 miles per hour when it comes and it takes direction,

puts energy in, puts the head down, and then the bullet enters the clavicle.

GRACE: Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael Brown`s family. Daryl, it is our duty as lawyers to seek the truth. And that`s what I`m trying to

do here. I don`t have one side or the other here. And what I`m trying to figure out, I said all along, you know what, you show me the autopsy

report, I can tell you what happened. I don`t need you to report it to me. Because I can figure it out. But now that I`ve seen the bit that we have

seen of the autopsy report, it`s very unclear as to what happened. And I want you to tell me, you have been there, you have talked to the witnesses,

I want to hear the family`s side. What do they say happened?

PARKS: Well, they believe that certainly Mike Mike as they call him, was walking with his friend, the police came. At some point he came to the

car with the police. They had a situation between the two of them. There may have been a shot while the officer is still in the car. Mike Mike and

Dorian attempted to run away. The officer began firing on them. He may have hit Mike Mike from the back on his right arm. He turns around and

surrenders to the officer. And the officer still continues to shoot. And approaches him and shoots him while he`s down.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Tonight, as the Jodi Arias retrial set to commence, she fires her lawyers, announcing she`ll represent herself. Arias lawyer ordered by

the judge to at least sit at the table as she acts as her own lawyer, even begging, please, judge, set me free from Jodi Arias.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI ARIAS: It`s very compelling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you kill Travis Alexander?

ARIAS: Yes, I did. He body slammed me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was standing there and you`re down, right?

ARIAS: Yes. I didn`t mean to shoot him or anything. He said I`ll [ bleep ] kill you, bitch. I just couldn`t believe what had happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma`am, were you crying when you were shooting him?

ARIAS: I don`t remember.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: With me is Brian Skoloff, author of "Killer Girlfriend, the Jodi Arias Story." Brian, I don`t know how she did it, but Jodi Arias has

finagled a continuance out of the judge. This case somehow Jodi Arias got continued for three more weeks. What do you make of it?

SKOLOFF: Nancy, it just continues to drag on, and Jodi continues to move forward with her plans to represent herself. The courtroom was closed

today for most of the arguments, but apparently Jodi convinced the judge that she needed more time to interview an expert witness, and the judge

agreed, postponing it until September 29th.

GRACE: Many a time the defendant has jumped up the morning of trial and said, I want a new lawyer, I go fine, I want you to have a new lawyer,

but he better be here by 9:00 a.m. because we`re going to trial. To Andy Cahan, victim`s advocate, city of Houston, monitors murderabilia sites.

Get this, Andy, again, thank you for being with us. Long time no see. Arias is using all the sales from her artwork. Let`s see some of her art.

It`s basically tracing magazine -- I don`t know what that is. $9,000 for the star, the city of light oil painting on canvas? There`s a shirt that`s

way too low. So she`s making $7,000, $9,000 when she traces magazine pictures? Andy, what she`s doing with that is hiring a private

investigator.

CAHAN: I`ll tell you what was even more disturbing for me was the fact that Arizona officials are essentially condoning her, allowing her

artwork to be sold online. I`ve never heard of this in over ten years of monitoring murderabilia that officials claim it`s okay for her to sell her

artwork online. And what`s even more disturbing is the fact one of the artworks that she`s selling claims that all of the proceeds from this sale

will be donated in Travis`s name to a reputable nonprofit organization that helps children.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Caryn Stark, psychologist out of New York, do you think she`s got the judge bamboozled as well?

STARK: I was just thinking that, Nancy. The way she`s been able to snow the judges, the way she`s been able to snow everyone else so that

she`s been able to get her artwork on there. It just seems, it seems so wrong that she should be able to make any kind of money off of Travis, or

money for herself in any way, given the circumstances. We know she`s guilty, and she must be extremely charming and seductive in order to be

able to pull this off.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember American hero, Army Specialist Adrian Hike, just 26. (inaudible), Iowa. Awarded the Purple

Heart, lived a life of selfless service, parents Robert and Kim, four brothers, grandmothers Delores and Patricia. Great grandmother Daisy.

Adrian Hike, American hero.

And happy birthday tonight to our friend, Peter Odom. And tonight, a heartfelt thank you to the Macon police as my father rushed my mother to

the hospital. He sped 82 miles an hour and ran through every red light in Macon, Georgia. They followed him, two patrol cars all the way to the

medical center of Georgia, and when they saw my mom, helped her in as well as him. Thank you to the doctors at the medical center as well. Drew up

next, everyone. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 Eastern sharp. Until then, good night, friend.

END