Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Twelve Days After the Shooting Death of Michael Brown; Grand Jury Will Hear Evidence Next Month in the Case of Death of Eric Garner

Aired August 21, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

And we are live on the streets of Ferguson. Calmer now, 12 days after the shooting death of Michael Brown. But make no mistake about it, people here are angry and they want answers. So, what will it take to keep the peace here? Iyanla Vanzant says she has a plan and she is here tonight to share that plan. But there is also Larry Elder. He says not even an O.J. jury would convict officer Wilson. But what happens if the officer never even goes to trial? We'll get into all of that tonight.

But we begin with the very latest here in Ferguson. First, let's go to CNN's Jake Tapper who is live down on the street as he has been every evening for us doing a great job.

Jake, what do you have for us tonight? What's going on?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, as we have discussed, Don, it has been a relatively quiet night, about 100 protesters. Much easier crowd to control. And they have been much more organized, walking these three or so blocks on West Florissant Avenue in Ferguson. Don't want to be get run over here by the excited protesters. And the police presence is the same as what we have seen over the last few nights, to the side, quiet. There have been couple of times we have seen officers running off in their squad cars to pursue some sort of report somewhere in the neighborhood, but nothing protest related. It has definitely died down.

Now, earlier today, I was speaking to a state senator are who represents some parts of Ferguson, and I asked well what happened theoretically, if the grand jury does not indict officer Darren Wilson, which seems at the very least possible. She said that the streets would explode, that it would be a much worse demonstration, much more violent than we have seen in weeks past.

But so far we're told that that grand jury is not handing down anything for a few months. And the crowds here seem to be dissipating, content with the visit of the attorney general, Eric Holder. That the administration is involved and engaged, even if residents don't trust local officials and state officials, they are confident that Eric Holder is watching their back, as one of them said to me, one of the citizens of Ferguson. So spirits seem to be improving and the protests seem to be extremely peaceful -- Don.

LEMON: All right, all right, Jake Tapper. Jake, we appreciate your reporting.

CNN's Stephanie Elam also out on the street now, she's joining us to talk about what she is seeing, where she is. Stephanie, what do you have?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, I'm actually at the location where Mike Brown died. If you look here, this is the memorial, an impromptu memorial in the middle of the street where you can see people have been dropping roses. And while we were standing here, before the sun went down, a group came up and silently one by one placed these roses all the way along down the middle of the street. We hear the hope was to make it go all the way to Florissant down by where you are right now. But as you can see, just lining in the middle of the street. And we have watched many cars come through here, making sure that they don't run over the roses.

The energy out here has been really solemn, almost warm, really. People have been coming over to pay their respects while we here. Mike Brown's mother came by. She stopped, paid her respects as well. We have seen in the evening people coming to pray, prayer circle, people singing spirituals, we also have seen people come lighting candles and leaving them here.

But a lot of people coming to just pay their respects. Every now and then you'll hear music playing. But for the most part, it has been calm and quiet. It will die down, then will be here. And then after a little bit, you'll see a few folks come up, pay their respects and leave a flower or some sort of memento.

But really, this is where people feel that they want to come and remember Mike Brown. And we keep seeing the pilgrimage down to here to where this place is here, Don.

LEMON: Yes. Quite a site to see that on the street. And when I got here last week, I saw something else, the only way I can put it. Thank you very much, Stephanie.

I want to bring in now St. Louis alderman Antonio French. And also Iyanla Vanzant, she is the host of "Iyanla, Fix my life" of Oprah Winfrey's OWN Network.

Thank you for joining us. Can task you of something. Can you hold that for me. Make sure when he speaks, he gets the Mike and when you speak --

IYANLA VANZANT, HOST, IYANLA, FIX MY LIFE: Oh, no.

LEMON: You've been on here every night, alderman. And you, you know, you got arrested and released without charges. Tell our viewers what happened.

ANTONIO FRENCH, ST. LOUIS ALDERMAN: Well, I think tonight we have seen our, you know, second consecutive night of peace and so far that's a good thing, you know. And I think the people have been really tired and just fatigued from 12 days of this crisis. And we're eager to get to the healing part. And that involves some long conversations and getting to work to make sure the people who feel disempowered and unheard and invisible, actually become part of our greater community.

LEMON: And Iyanla, for your own show on your OWN network show, you have been meeting with the family, you have been meeting with community leaders.

VANZANT: I've met with the people on the streets.

LEMON: How do we move forward? There is so much anger, so much emotion around this.

VANZANT: You give people something to do. You get them clear about what it is they're asking for. You direct them to the people they have to ask for it. And you give people something to do. Right now they're just waiting. And it is the wait that continues to intensify the anger and the emotion. They are not helpless people. They just need to know who to ask for what.

LEMON: I want to listen to Michael Brown's family. They spoke to our Anderson Cooper this evening. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BROWN SR., MICHAEL BROWN'S FATHER: I want everything to -- I don't want rush judgment. I want everyone to take their time. So there will be no mistakes, and get it done right.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, AC360: You talked publicly about justice. You want justice. For are you what is justice for your son?

BROWN: He's got to go to jail. So we can have some type of peace. Still walking around with pay. That's not -- that's not fair to us. You know? We're hurt. And he has his life. Our son is gone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He has his life, my son is gone, he says. What does justice look like, do you think?

FRENCH: We don't want to presume anything. We want to see all the facts, but justice at this point is a trial. It is an indictment and trial. We do believe there is at least enough evidence to warrant an indictment. And I think the prosecutor by calling the grand jury and it may take until October for them to finish their work. I don't think that he has clear hand or how fragile the piece is right now. We need something quickly.

LEMON: And Iyanla, what is justice look like? Because I know you always say, you know, of course, we have to deal with the justice system, but heal yourself. This community is going to have to do a lot of healing on its own as well. This is a terrible tragedy that left upon us. VANZANT: Well, you know, as an outsider, I came in and asked the

people what would justice look like for you. And what they said was respect. What does it look like is the number of African-American men who are stopped between municipalities is decreased. What are justice will look like is that the authorities, the legal representatives, that represent them, start to represent -- look like them.

We were out here last night, they had the National Guard, and they did not represent the nature and the tone of the community. What justice will look like for the people is when the young African-American men in this community have a voice. When they're not dismissed, diminished, denied.

LEMON: Looked upon as suspicious because they said that's the interaction they have with police. Hey, what are you doing?

VANZANT: I saw it. I saw it myself. Last night I called together 13 young African-American men. I call them the mighty 13. They're still together. They're out on the streets. And I gave them a challenge. And my challenge was, hold peace for 14 days. Let this family bury their son. Let people get through the grief. Hold the peace for 14 days and in that 14 days, plan your ask, know who you're going to ask, and be prepared to participate in the ask.

LEMON: Part of the healing process is forgiveness. Do you think this family can forgive this officer one day?

FRENCH: Well, I don't know. I mean, that's a question for the family. But there is a greater forgiveness that has to happen too. And that's a reconciliation in our community. There is a broken trust between the government, local police, and the community. And that's a problem that we're going to have to fix because communities do need police and in order for police to be effective, it has to be trust.

LEMON: Yes. What about forgiveness here?

VANZANT: Forgiveness is the only thing that is going to heal them ultimately. I think the community has to forgive itself for allowing it to go on so long, takes time. But we got to start somewhere. We need to say it. The community has accepted and tolerated unacceptable behavior for so long. They have --

LEMON: And that's part of the anger that people may not understand around the country, unless you're here and you are hearing the stories and feeling the environment, then it clicks for you.

VANZANT: And I think that the forgiveness of the elected officials that have totally abandoned these people. This community has been abandoned. Let's just call it out. And ultimately the forgiveness of the police officer within himself and the forgiveness of the family has to come with the family.

LEMON: I spoke to the governor today and said, listen, we need to take care of the situation that we're in first, Antonio. But then he said they need to start looking to see how they can fix this problem of the disconnect between -- and the distrust between the community and law enforcement. That should be done sooner than later, don't you think?

FRENCH: Well, he is right. First you have to get through the crisis, you know, we have to keep peace, you know. As long as there are tanks roaming our streets, it is hard to get to that long hard work, repair of the community and reconciling what has been 10, 20 years of boiling over tensions. And so, we do have a long road ahead. And I'm eager to start that as soon as we get through the crisis.

LEMON: All right. Thank you.

VANZANT: And this was not new. Let us not forget. It is not new.

LEMON: Thank you. And such a pleasure to see that we have spoken on television. Thank you. I'm not hugging you.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Thank you, Iyanla. Thank you, Antonio. I appreciate it. Listen, as I was speaking about the governor, one sign that Ferguson may be turning the corner, as Governor Jay Nixon, he ordered the National Guard to draw down today. I spoke to him earlier about what needs to happen here to make a real change.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: I used to live in St. Louis and I experienced and witnessed the racial divide, that was years ago. I mean, people say there is a racial divide among black and white in St. Louis. How do you -- what needs to change in St. Louis, in Ferguson, to amend that, to fix that? And first of all, do you agree with that?

GOV. JAY NIXON (D), MISSOURI: You clearly feel and communities across America issues of race, continue to -- we're making progress in the march towards equality and march towards trust but we're in the there yet.

LEMON: You two sons, right?

NIXON: Yes, I do.

LEMON: Do you talk to them about how they interact with police?

NIXON: I listen to them. Sure. You want them to have respect, police.

LEMON: But do you know the conversation that most African-American parents have with their, especially with their sons, of how to interact with police?

NIXON: I know that it is -- first of all, I don't want to say that I know exactly what every parent tells folks. Other than to say that when I learned I was a relatively young attorney general during first few of those racial profiling reports that we did, you know, we had statisticians in and looking at numbers. And sometimes looking at the page it was numbers, but the -- but all of us working on it, it became very real. And it -- we recognized very clearly not just from those numbers, but the stories around them that there are communities in which where there is not the same level of trust for law enforcement that there is in other communities. And that's got to be -- those are issues we need to address.

LEMON: But do you understand that conversation? My parents had it with me. My sisters have it with my nieces and nephews and on and on. That conversation probably should not have to happen, but unfortunately it does.

NIXON: I do think -- it may be different in some communities than others. But do I think folks should listen to their parents and try to listen to law enforcement officers. I know it is a difficult conversation, but in order for us to move forward, then we're going to have to build some trust and I understand and appreciate how those conversations are important. Quite frankly, essential, you know. For -- but we need to use those not just as a checklist to watch out, but as an opportunity to start listening as we move forward, so we can get some change.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: We are going to be back with much more live from Ferguson coming up. Coming up, grand jury are is hearing evidence in the Michael Brown case. What if officer Darren Wilson is never charged? Larry Elder says even an O.J. jury wouldn't convict him. He's here tonight.

Also a tale of two badges. While the investigation goes on here in Ferguson, another officer is being investigated in New York over the choke hold death of Eric Garner. So when is deadly force justified? We are going to talk about that tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: We're back now live in Ferguson. A grand jury is already hearing testimony in the case. But we may not know until mid-October if charges will be filed against officer Darren Wilson.

Joining me now is Larry Elder. He is the host of the "Larry Elder show" and he is the author of "Dear Father, Dear, Dear Son" And Van Jones, co-host of CNN's "CROSSFIRE." So Larry gets to be in an air conditioned studio and Van Jones and I get to be sweating it out here in 101 degree heat.

So I'm going to start with Van just because you're in the air conditioning. Van, as time goes on, you know, we learn new details about that day. And today we learn that the officer, officer Wilson, may have had a swollen face after the incident at the police car. Do you think the charges will ultimately be filed?

VAN JONES, CNN HOST, CROSSFIRE: You know, I think -- I hope they will. I believe they will. You know, one thing is very interesting is that, you know, if the officer had a swollen face before they were saying he had a fractured eye socket, you know, you would think the police would very quickly release the photograph. I think the photographic evidence would probably calm the forests down right away. They went to find the video of Mike Brown at a store blocks away hours earlier, but somehow we have never seen a photograph of all the injuries. I think that once you lay out all the facts, there will be enough to indict and to have this officer see a jury of his peers.

LEMON: You know, remember in the George Zimmerman trial, everyone said no injuries and then they showed injuries came up later. I just want to -- I want to play one of the eyewitnesses who says he didn't see any injuries. Let's listen to him and we'll talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You said you don't think the officer was injured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not at all, no sir.

LEMON: You didn't see any injury?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.

LEMON: No injury to his eye?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wasn't close enough to see all of that. I can tell if the person is injured, you know, if they're seriously injured, like what you're asking me, I believe that would have been noticeable. Not only that, but the news that somebody would have said that initially, you know? Why wait all this time and all of a sudden he's been beat up?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He's sort of echoing what van Jones is saying. So Larry, you know what, I have to say this, this -- I thought this was very interesting. And you said not even an O.J. jury would convict officer Wilson. I mean, should he at least be charged?

LARRY ELDER, HOST, LARRY ELDER SHOW: Well, I think he will be charged. I think Van is right. I think the politics will compel a charge, but I think the law and the facts will compel an acquittal. You have witnesses that appear to be unreliable. You already have witnesses that are altering their testimony. The key witness is this guy, Dorian Johnson, who is with him. He's already now conceded he didn't tell the investigators about the robbery at the convenience store ten minutes earlier. I just forgot that. He said that the shots were all in the back. Their own expert that they hired Dr. Baden said that the shots were consistent with someone coming forward. He didn't say that's what happened, but he said it is consistent with somebody coming forward.

When that guys say that on the defense on the jury stand, and I'm doing the cross examination, the case has now gone supernova. It is over. When you have your own witness saying the forensic evidence is consistent with a guy charging him, it is done. But I think the pressure will be --

LEMON: By over, you think the officer --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: OK. You answered my question. Van, do you agree with that?

JONES: Well, I think it is way too early to tell. We definitely have a lot of conflicting evidence. But here is what is most compelling for most people in the country now. This was an unarmed person. And I think that the behavior of police afterward is so damming. The behavior afterwards. You don't interview witnesses for a week. Ordinarily somebody gets shot in the neighborhood, everybody gets interviewed. This person was shot. You had people on television for days and days, saying look, I was there. I saw it. The police seemed less interested in interviewing eyewitnesses and finding out what was going on than apparently finding videotape about of this kid blocks away hours earlier.

So that's, I think, the kind of behavior on the part of the police that has alarmed country. I think it will compel a charge. And what we do not know at this point what will come out through the process.

LEMON: Larry, You're talking about the behavior of Michael Brown, you were talking about the behavior of Dorian Johnson. Whose behavior should be under more scrutiny, should it be Michael Brown or should it be the officer, officer Wilson? Who should be more under scrutiny?

ELDER: Officer Wilson, of course, is the one who did the shooting. So clearly we have to have an investigation to find out whether or not the shooting was legitimate. But Van keeps talking about him being unarmed. When you shoots somebody, you don't find out they are unarmed until you shoot them. The point is if he was a threat. And this business about he was shot six times, don't know what is going on with the reporters who are gun (INAUDIBLE), but you can fire rounds, six rounds in about two seconds. And this business about wounding him, that's on television. You shoot to stop the threat. And you don't stop shooting until the threat is stopped. If this guy is 6'4" and came at officer Wilson, having a confrontation in the vehicle before, damn right you shoot, of course you do.

JONES: Sure, but the problem is that you don't have a bunch of witnesses right afterwards saying, hey, you know, our big 6'4" friend was trying to tackle a police officer who shot him. What you have is numerous people saying the guy was trying to surrender and was shot. That's not one person or two people or -- you have -- that was the entire word that came from that event.

And so, I think what you got to be able to say is if what you said is true, that you had a 6'4", big guy who was trying to attack an police officer and the police officer could not defend himself any other way, you're right. But that's not what the witnesses saw.

LEMON: Hey Larry, I know you want to get in. But hold that thought, both of you gentlemen. Stay with me, We are going to come right back. We are going to be discussing more of this case. Those who knew Michael Brown called him a gentle giant. He was a big guy, yet he was only 18-years-old. I talked to his cousin about this earlier.

So do age and size have anything to do with this case? We'll discuss that coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone, to Ferguson. A much calmer city tonight. Michael Brown was 18-years-old, an age that bridges boyhood and manhood. So does his age have anything to do with this case? I want to Wasn't to talk about it with Larry Elder and Van Jones, they're back with me.

Larry, Michael Brown was unarmed, 6'4", weighing nearly 300 pounds, his family referred to him as a gentle giant. He was also 18. So was he a teen or an adult?

ELDER: I'm happy you asked me about that. Fifteen years ago, Don, CNN with "Time" magazine did a joint poll. They asked black teenagers do you feel that racism is a problem in America? And not too surprisingly, the majority of them said, yes. But then asked is racism is a problem in your own life, 89 percent said little to no problem in their own lives. In fact, the kid said to a greater degree than a white kid did, the failure to see opportunities was a bigger problem than racism.

Now, Eric Holder talked about his own personal experience of racism, he said he was pulled over on the New Jersey turnpike.

LEMON: Larry, Larry, Larry, Larry, Larry, Larry, hold on. Hang on, Larry. That wasn't the question I asked you. I said, I talked about his stature and his age. Is he a teen --

ELDER: The important question --

LEMON: Or an adult. This is the age -- I'm not asking you about the important question. I want you to answer my question. Is he a teen or an adult at an age that bridges boyhood and manhood.

ELDER: You are 18-years-old. You're able to enlist in a military. You are able to be charged for homicide if you commit a heinous murder. As far as I'm concerned, you're an adult. He was going to college on that following Monday. And so they call him a kid when they want to, they call him an adult what they don't want to.

The bottom line is the fact that he's an 18-year-old should not factor in to. What should factor into it is whether or not this officer had a reasonable belief of fear of bodily injury to himself or other people and therefore had the right to defend himself. And I believe the facts so far and the law so far will compel an acquittal in the event he's tried.

LEMON: All right. His mom spoke with Anderson Cooper tonight about her son being only 18-years-old. Here she is. Listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: He was a teenager. He was growing up. He was only 18. He had a chance to make a mistake and correct it just like the officer. You had a choice and he chose the wrong one. And it wasn't really necessary. No. My son's not 18, only 18.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Larry, I'll let you finish up and I want Van to get in after you finish it. To his mom, she said he's still her baby. But does it matter to the case whether he was perceived as an adult or teenage kid, Larry?

ELDER: The only thing that matters is whether or not officer Wilson perceived him to be a threat on a reasonable basis. And the woman is hurting. Of course she's hurting. She's lost her son. But for crying out loud, the fact is the number one preventable cause for death for young black men is homicide at the hands usually of another young black man. The rare instance when an unarmed black person gets killed is precisely why we're talking about this. It is that rare. Seven thousand homicides last year, Don, most of those -- homicides of black people, most of them at the hands of another black person, almost all of those --

LEMON: Larry, I understand you want to talk about that and that is a legitimate conversation, but I have very limited time here. That's the only reason I'm cutting you off here. I have very limited time. I really have -- I can't go into the next show.

All right. So, Van, there was criticism during the trial of Trayvon Martin. That much younger picture of Trayvon Martin was shown than he actually was, used in the media. That hasn't been done with Michael Brown. But there has been talk about his age and his statue. Do you think the media is doing a fair job in covering this?

JONES: I think that the -- this is a tough thing to cover. Let me just say something about the age of this young man and why it might be relevant. I've been here now for several days. There does seem to be an attitude from the police department that I have actually witnessed myself. I'm not talking about what people have told me. That there seems to be an us versus them attitude here. That doesn't seem to me the police here understand they work for the people here in Ferguson. And especially when they're dealing with the younger people, they seem to think there is almost an us versus them, not an I'm working for you. I'm working with you to make this community better. And if that's been a standard operating procedure in this department, you could have a police officer, because he thought he was a young black man, responded in a negative way.

So, look, I don't think that you got a 6'4" guy, certainly, black, white, purple or green, that poses a certain physical threat if you're afraid. But why are all of the police afraid of the little skinny black guys around here, that's a very concern.

LEMON: All right, I have to go. Like I said I got to get a break and can't go into the next show.

Thank you guys. We will continue to have this conversation. I appreciate you, Larry. I also appreciate you Van Jones, the host of CNN's "CROSSFIRE." Comparisons have been made between Michael Brown's death and that of Eric Garner in New York City. Two black men who each died at the hands of white cops. But there are differences as well. A side by side look at both these cases coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back. We're live in Ferguson, 12 days after shooting death of Michael Brown. And sadly cases like this happen all across the country. In New York, a grand jury will hear evidence next month in the case of Eric Garner who died in a police choke hold.

Athena Jones has more and we must warn you that some of what you're about to see is disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two unarmed black men are dead, killed by white police officers in the line of duty. But what if those officers never even go to trial?

18-year-old Michael Brown's death at the hands of officer Darren Wilson sparked nearly two weeks of often violent protests. While in New York, the death of 43-year-old Eric Garner after police confront him for allegedly selling cigarettes illegally places the whole NYPD on notice. This cell phone video shows Garner struggling for breath as officer Daniel Pantalio clings to his neck and back, a chokehold ban by the New York Police Department. It is a powerful picture.

THOMAS FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: If there is prosecution of the officer, you know, the video looks bad no question about that.

A. JONES: New York's medical examiner rules Garner's death a homicide. Now both cases are headed to a grand jury. But getting an indictment isn't that simple.

MIDWIN CHARLES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Police officers rarely get indicted on these sorts of cases and a lot of times it is because police officers are licensed to carry. They have to use force. It is one of the definitions of their jobs.

A. JONES: The investigations will take weeks if not months. Both cases have forensic and video evidence to consider. Like this security video, allegedly showing Brown stealing cigars, just minutes before being stopped by police.

CNN law enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes says it could show his state of mind, a critical part of the story.

FUENTES: What had to be in his mind was he just committed a crime ten minutes earlier. That encounter with the police isn't just about jaywalking. He has to assume he is going to be arrested or it is going to be more to this once the officer, you know, talks to him.

A. JONES: There are differing eyewitness accounts if Brown was moving towards the police officer or away from him. And conflicting eyewitness accounts are just one of the challenges a prosecution faces. The district attorneys in both cases are facing public doubts about their ability to get an indictment.

The NAACP today tweeting a call for a special prosecutor in the Brown case. The justice department is already involved. And in New York, members of Congress, religious leaders and other advocates are also calling for a federal investigation.

So what happens if there isn't an indictment in these cases? Will there be more violence? That's what Reverend Calvin Butts fears, he wants to seat black community use its political power to make changes in city leadership instead.

CALVIN BUTTS, PASTOR, ABYSSINIAN BAPTIST CHURCH: Marches and demonstrations are here today and gone tomorrow. Organizing and voting represents a consistent long range effort and strategy that can make a difference.

A. JONES: A difference that many in New York and Ferguson, Missouri, believe is long overdue.

Athena Jones, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right, Athena Jones, thank you very much.

Joining me now, criminal defense attorney Janet Johnson and Bernard Kerik, the former police commissioner in New York. He is the CEO of the Kerik group.

OK. Let's get into this, Janet. Do you see any key differences between the actions of the police officers in these two cases?

JANET JOHNSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the key difference is we had video in the Garner case. So we know what that narrative is. I think we don't know what is going to be the key in, you know, the case in Missouri. And that is part of what is unsettling.

But certainly it would be easier for the officer, for Darren Wilson to say this was self-defense because we don't have video that is going to show us clearly what happened. That's not going to be very easy to do in the Garner case. I don't know how you claim that was self-defense. That's clearly excessive force. I think it is easier to get an indictment in Garner.

LEMON: Yes. And, Bernie Kerik, you know, under what circumstances are officers trained to use deadly force? And do you think in both of these cases that the officers were justified? Some people are wondering why not just shoot to injure? Injure? Officers are trained to shoot to kill?

BERNARD KERIK, FORMER POLICE COMMISSIONER: First of all, I heard that earlier and that's not the truth. That's not the case. At least from the training I've received and I've given for the last 30 years. You shoot to stop. You shoot center body mass which is the largest part of a target, and you shoot to stop. And you only shoot when you are faced with deadly physical force, the threat of deadly physical force against you. So that's when you should shoot. That's when you should use deadly physical force and that is the law.

LEMON: So it really is a judgment call then in a split second, Bernie?

KERIK: It is a split second, Don. And it is something that really nobody understands unless you're there, unless you're on the scene. You know, somebody may attack me, and I may not feel as threatened as another cop. I may go to the -- I may feel the threat of deadly physical force at one point where others may not. You know, it is really dependent on the officer, the state of mind, the circumstance, there is 100 different things that goes into this decision and it is all in a matter of a second or two.

LEMON: It depends on the circumstances. Janet, you know, if officer Wilson did get hit in the face by Michael Brown, is that enough to exonerate him of any criminal charges?

JOHNSON: Well, you know, it is hard to imagine that the last shot to the head was reaction to getting hit in the face. But, to me, Don, it is so reminiscent of what happened in Zimmerman. And initially in Zimmerman the narrative was, you know, unarmed teen gets shot. By the end of the trial, you know, we have these pictures of Zimmerman looking like he got beat up and we have a not guilty.

To me, having been in Sanford, this is setting up -- I mean, you and I were both there, the very similar to that. And people will be very disappointed if the verdict is the same as the one in Zimmerman. By the way, it has to be disproven by the state by a reasonable doubt. That will be hard if all you have is the surviving person's narrative.

LEMON: But, Janet, some have said that people get shot by the cop every single day. Why have events in Ferguson resonated so loudly with this country in your estimation.

JOHNSON: Yes, and I had clients sadly, I had clients that were killed by the police. My clients and it was so tragic, they were practically, you know, suicide by cop. They were basically, you know, trying to get guns, they are trying to have a shootout.

This is a case where we know that didn't happen. We know there wasn't a shootout, even if he was reaching for the gun. We know six shots is an overreaction. And you know, I wondered when Mr. Kerik was saying, you know, it goes to your experience. This is a young cop. This could be an overreaction at best.

I think that an 18-year-old getting shot by the police resonates. And Ferguson, you're there, Don, that history, this is just the tip of the iceberg and the reaction was really unsettling. And the world is now watching.

LEMON: Bernie?

KERIK: Listen, you know, I heard this age thing going back and forth. You know, some of the most violent prisoners on Rikers Island are the adolescents, 16, 17, 18 years old, the most violent, vicious. So this whole thing he's 18-years-old, is he an adult, is he not an adult, should he be tried as an adult --

JOHNSON: No. But he's not guilty. He's not being tried. I mean, Bernie, 18-year-olds --

KERIK: I'm not talking about what he did. I'm talking about the age in general.

JOHNSON: He's not developed. The age is irrelevant.

KERIK: At 15, you could be a threat at 17 or 18. You can be a threat and you can be a threat to someone regardless of your age. It doesn't make any difference.

JOHNSON: No. But adults have to take that into account as the adult in a situation, you have to know if you're dealing with an 18-year-old and, you know, who didn't know that, and he's a big kid, I understand that. But 18-year-olds, their brain isn't fully developed, particularly males, they don't get, if I do this, that will happen. That's science.

KERIK: The problem you have, Janet, is you don't have time to sit down and have a discussion in a circumstance like this and ask him his age.

JOHNSON: I agree. I agree. Maybe he did, we don't know.

LEMON: All right. Stay with me, everyone. Stay with me, Janet and Bernie. When we come right back, would cops be better off using tasers in situations like these?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, live to Ferguson now, where Michael Brown was shot to death by a police officer nearly two weeks ago. Earlier this week, police shot a knife wielding man in St. Louis. Back now to Janet Johnson and Bernard Kerik.

So Commissioner, let's look at another case. Tuesday, St. Louis police shot and killed a man who was wielding a knife and officers say he refused their orders to put it down and walk towards them. There is now this video of the incident. Why shoot to kill? Couldn't they have handled this possibly in a different way as we look at this video, commissioner?

KERIK: Honestly, Don, this is the first time I'm seeing the video. I hadn't seen this before. Look, you know, every scenario is handled differently. Could they have handled it differently if they had different resources, you know.

You mentioned taser before the break. In the Garner incident, in New York, I believe if those officers had a taser, we would have had a very different outcome there. Tasers are an extremely useful tool. You know, a lot of departments, the press and the media focus on taser over the years and has prevented or, you know, kept a lot of departments away from them. However, in a situation like Garner and possibly the situation where

this guy had this knife, they could have resulted in very different endings if the officers had tasers. I don't think they had them. I know the New York guys did not have them. I don't know about the others.

LEMON: Yes. So, commissioner, before I go back to Janet, Commissioner, neighborhood folks tell CNN this man was known in the area, to have some mental challenges. How are police trained to recognize a mentally disturbed person from a true -- from a true criminal?

KERIK: Well, look, you know, it depends on the officers, you know, if they work that community, if they're familiar with the people in the community. It depends where you're at. In New York city it a big place. You get called to a job somewhere. You don't know the person. If you see the distress, if you see there may be, you know, have a mental disability, then you're supposed to back off, you call for the emergency service unit, you call for a sergeant, you get the appropriate backup before you take any action. And unless they're imposing a physically or deadly threat against someone in the community. Otherwise, you lay back, get the sergeant, get emergency service come in and let them handle it.

LEMON: OK. So, Janet, you know, we talked about the fact that officers have to make really split second decisions as the commissioner said, you don't get a chance to sit down and just figure it out. So does that, I don't know, does that make an excuse for a wrong call if someone dies, you don't really have a chance to sit down and talk because it is a split second decision? Janet? I think we have some technical difficulties, Janet, can you hear me? Bernie, does it make a difference?

KERIK: Yes. You know, it definitely makes a difference. You know, every incident is different. So you know, in the time that every officer is going to respond differently depending what they feel is the perceived threat.

LEMON: You know, I spoke to the governor about this today about the departments becoming increasingly militarized, the police departments, around this country. And many say that's become excessive. What has prompted this, commissioner?

KERIK: The militarization, if you will?

LEMON: Yes.

KERIK: Well, don, you got to look at the history since 9/11. You know, just today, the secretary of defense and you talked about this earlier, talked about ISIS and the threat that we face from ISIS, both abroad and possibly coming here. We need as much help in fighting terrorists as a group possible. And, you know, you can look at the units, I don't think --

LEMON: Do you need that -- I mean, do you need that in Ferguson, Missouri? How many terrorist organizations are targeting Ferguson? I mean, to be honest?

KERIK: The realization is -- I understand that, but here's the problem. Do you know where they're going to be? Do you know where they're coming? You know? Forget about terrorists. If you had a shooting in a school, in Ferguson, where you have some mentally deranged person walk into a school and start slaughtering children, like they did in Connecticut, you're going to need a response to go there. Who are you going to call? Will you call somebody in New York?

LEMON: I understand what you're saying in every situation is different by the time anyone has gotten to Newtown, it was really too late, even if it was a militarized presence from a police department. I want to get your response about the National Guard being, I should say withdrawn, but a gradual removal of the national guard here, a gradual draw down. Do you think that will help, the citizens here like they're not even under siege even more?

JOHNSON: Listen, nobody wants to be occupied, you know. And I'm sure that's what the community may feel, in some circumstances. But at the end of the day, I think it is up to the governor, it is his call. He has to make sure that the community is safe. He has to make sure they're secure. And if he feels at this point in time that he can draw down on that -- on the National Guard, then so be it. He should do it. But, you know, first and foremost he has to consider the safety and security of the community.

LEMON: Yes. All right. Thank you, commissioner. Thank you, Janet, as well. Sorry about the technical difficulties.

And I want to make a quick point about a conversation we had here last night on CNN. It was with our political commentator Ben Ferguson. He has got a bit heated when we got to discussion of automatic and semiautomatic weapons . And I misspoke. Just to be clear, I do know the difference, an automatic weapon continues to fire as long as a trigger is pulled. With the semiautomatic weapon, you have to pull the trigger to fire another round there. But none of that really changes the point I was trying to make, which is this. That gun sales are through the roof and we as a nation should decide if we think that it is a good thing, or not.

So when we come right back here on CNN, with the latest from Ferguson, I want to tell you about what is going on here and what they can expect tomorrow and over the weekend.

Also, Michael Brown will be laid to rest next week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: That it is for us tonight. We will be back here tomorrow night live from Ferguson, Missouri.