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New Witness Comes Forward; Credible Witnesses; Police Shooting Near Ferguson; Europeans Pay Ransoms

Aired August 21, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Protest in Ferguson overnight, mostly peaceful with only six arrests. And this relative calm could mean a shift in focus away from the anger and toward the investigation. Now, the grand jury here, the grand jury in the Michael Brown shooting has begun to hear evidence, a new witness coming forward to describe what he saw on that deadly day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BRADY, EYEWITNESS TO MICHAEL BROWN SHOOTING: When I heard the altercation, I looked out the window, and I see somebody at Ferguson Police window, some kind of a tussle going on here. So --

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You - so you saw somebody at the window of the police car?

BRADY: Yes.

COOPER: The police officer was still in the vehicle.

BRADY: Yes, inside the vehicle. So, like I said, it was some kind of tussle going on. He also had a friend also. He runs on the side of the car, because all of a sudden they just takes off running. (INAUDIBLE) --

COOPER: Did you see --

BRADY: I didn't --

COOPER: What the tussle was around? Did you see, was one person being pulled in or pulled out?

BRADY: Oh, no, he was just exactly at the window. I mean he may look like he was trying to get away. That's when I decided, OK, I'm going to run outside with my phone and see what I could get. So I runs outside so quick. By the time I gets outside, he's already turned around facing the officer. He -he's - he's balled up. He had his arms like under his stomach and he was like halfway down, like he was going down. And the officer let's out about three or four shots at him. So, like I said, just like - just like the body - I took - I took a few pictures and a video about how his body is on the ground, just like with his arms tucked in. That's how he got shot or whatever. But like I said, before he went down, he was already like this. And he took like one or two steps going towards the officer and he, like I said, let go about three or four more shots at him and that's when he hit the ground.

COOPER: You're saying it's your impression that he was essentially falling down on to the ground or going down on to the ground?

BRADY: Yes. Not -

COOPER: Because there is an account by a friend of the -- or allegedly a friend of the officer said that the officer is claiming, and sources of the investigation back this up, is what the officer's claim is, is that Mike Brown was running toward the officer. Did you see him running toward the officer in any way?

BRADY: No. No. Not after when he was running away, no. Not at all. Like I said, by the time I come outside, I'm thinking that he's now hit after I seen the officer shooting at him while he was running away. So I'm thinking that he's hit because now he's turned around now like this, like he was going down. It didn't even look like that he was giving up. It just looked like, you know, oh, I'm hit. You know, I'm going to go down now. That's what it looked like. That --

COOPER: That was your impression.

BRADY: Yes. Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, again, that is Michael Brady. And that new account does differ from what we've heard from previous witnesses. For one, Michael's friend who was there, Dorian Johnson, he says after being chased, Brown turned around with his hands up to tell the officer he was unarmed. There was another witness, Tiffany Mitchell. She says that Officer Darren Wilson was shooting just as soon as he got out of the car while chasing Michael Brown. And Piaget Crenshaw, who took video of the aftermath from her balcony at her apartment also says Michael Brown was running away while the officer continued firing at him.

But then you have that friend of Officer Wilson, remember she called into that radio show. Her name is Josie. And she says Michael Brown shoved the officer back in the car, grabbed the gun, and then Officer Wilson was acting in self-defense as he shoved him away and shot at him. So, all these different accounts.

Anderson Cooper, as you saw a moment ago, with that latest version, he joins me now live from Ferguson.

And, Anderson, I know you just talked to Michael Brown's parents. Let me just say that right out of the gate. So we want to talk about that in just a moment. But let's go back to Michael Brady's version of events. As you stood there and you listened to his account, what struck you about that?

ANDERSON COOPER, ANCHOR, CNN'S "AC 360": Well, let me just point out that radio caller, that you mentioned, we should point out, is not an eyewitness. That radio caller got their account, she said, from the significant other of the officer involved that we have confirmed that it does jive with what the officer has told authorities, according to a source close to the investigation.

Michael Brady, it's interesting, I mean, you know, it doesn't give any definitive answers. Michael Brady said there was some sort of a tussle at the vehicle. Was not clear on if punches were thrown, who was pulling who, was not sure of the nature of that tussle. He then -- there's a gap in what he saw because he moved to a separate room. And then he, as you pointed out, did not see hands going up. So there's conflicting reports on that.

I think the bottom line is that this -- a lot of this is going to boil down to forensic evidence and other -- as many eyewitnesses as possible. We know there have been dozens of FBI agents on the ground conducting interviews. Only some witnesses have come forward publicly to speak. There are presumably other witnesses as well. Whether witnesses who saw it or witnesses who heard what went on, who will be testifying before the grand jury. But a lot of this -- we know nothing about the forensic evidence at this point. And that is going to be critical in this case.

BALDWIN: We also mentioned Attorney General Eric Holder. He was in town yesterday. He talked to Michael Brown's parents. You just spoke to the mother and father. What did they share with you?

COOPER: Yes, I talked to Leslie McSpadden, Mike Brown's mother, and Mike Brown Senior, the dad. I asked them about that meeting with Eric Holder and what kind of an impact it had on them. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Did it make a difference that he came here, that he looked you in the eye, that he met with you privately?

LESLIE MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: Yes, it did to me.

MIKE BROWN SR., MICHAEL BROWN'S FATHER: Yes. Yes.

COOPER: In what way?

MCSPADDEN: Because you can read a person. And when you're looking at them and they're looking at you in your eyes, it puts some trust back there that you lost. And he did insure that it will be (INAUDIBLE) and thorough investigation.

COOPER: Do you believe - do you have confidence in the investigations? Because there's the - there's the state investigation, the county, the federal investigation. Do you have confidence that --

MCSPADDEN: Up until yesterday, I didn't.

COOPER: You didn't?

MCSPADDEN: But just hearing the words come directly from his mouth, face-to-face, he made me feel like one day I will. And I'm not saying today or yesterday, but one day they'll regain my trust.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So certainly as far as the parents are concerned, that visit by Eric Holder, that meeting face-to-face really had a major impact on the way they feel about things moving forward.

BALDWIN: So reinstalling trust, not just in these parents, but perhaps the beginning stages of doing so within this community. Anderson Cooper, thank you. We'll be watching your entire interview with the parents, of course, tonight. A special edition of "AC 360" live from Ferguson, 8:00 Eastern, right here on CNN.

So as we talk about these different witness accounts, and there are a number of them, people who say they saw the shooting, with all distinct differences. The question now is, how do you decide which is most credible? Let me bring in CNN legal analyst Danny Cevallos.

And so we ran through before talking to Anderson just multiple accounts, right? And there are probably more than that. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't want to come forward because of, you know, that mistrust with the police department. Of all the ones you've heard, is there any that sticks out at you as most credible?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, yes. First let's throw out Josie, the radio caller in - this is -

BALDWIN: Second-hand.

CEVALLOS: We all had Josie fever for about a day and we took a step back and realized, wait, she wasn't even an actual witness -

BALDWIN: Right.

CEVALLOS: Even though her story was compelling.

I think if you were to give an award to most credible so far, it has to be Michael Brady, who we heard Anderson interview because he's an ideal prosecution witness. Assuming there is some day a prosecution, he is a -- he's disinterested. He had no stake in the game. Unlike Mike Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson, who had some interest. That will - that will undermine his credibility, believe me.

But when you have a neutral witness observing these events and then recounting them, then that becomes more credible. So if anyone were to pick one of your best witnesses so far -

BALDWIN: OK.

CEVALLOS: If there's a prosecution, it might go to Mike Brady.

BALDWIN: What about Dorian Johnson? You bring him up. He was talking. He's talked to CNN. He's put himself out there. We talked to his attorney. And then all of a sudden he has gone away. I have to imagine that it's his attorney now saying, OK, we have to stop talking. CEVALLOS: I'm sure it is because, remember, every time you see a

witness talk, no matter what their motives, if they're interested or not interested, they're creating another transcript. And there's one maxim when it comes to litigation, that it's virtually impossible for any of us to tell the exact same story two times in a row. So the more transcripts these witnesses create, the more opportunity -

BALDWIN: More of a paper trail.

CEVALLOS: Sure. Not even a paper trail so much but inconsistency that may not be intentional -

BALDWIN: OK.

CEVALLOS: But maybe just by omission. And that's something that a defense attorney is taught to exploit if there is, of course, a prosecution.

BALDWIN: OK. Danny Cevallos, thank you so much. We'll continue exploring legal angles on this one.

But coming up next, new questions about police force as this chilling new video has surfaced showing the deaths of a young African-American man mere miles from Ferguson. Does the video we are finally seeing contradict the police version, the police account? We'll discuss that.

Also ahead, ISIS militants demanding a $130 million ransom just before beheading an American. I'll speak live with a former hostage negotiator about whether ransom should be paid, period. This as the Pentagon is getting ready to address the failed mission to save American journalist James Foley. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Let's talk about this new cell phone video that has now surfaced. It shows two police officers shooting a young black man in St. Louis. His name, Kajieme Powell. He was killed Tuesday just actually a couple of miles from Ferguson, Missouri. And police say Powell walked out of a convenience store with two energy drinks, doughnuts he did not pay for. Police say once he came outside, he came at them with a knife. And less than 20 seconds after their arrival on the scene, they opened fire. They killed him.

Now, we have that cell phone video of the fatal shooting. And just a heads-up for you, it is graphic to look at so we've chosen to just freeze frame the footage the moment before Powell is shot by police. But you can still hear nine shots being fired.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police going to pull up. You see -- y'all call the police?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE). We called them. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your hands out of your pockets.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's got his gun out. Oh (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! Oh (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! Oh (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! Oh (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! They've got their guns out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop it, bro.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Damn!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So joining me now, HLN law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks in Atlanta.

And, Mike, I mean, of all your years in law enforcement, you heard the police version a couple of days ago. Now we see this he cell phone video. Does the video back up the police account, in your opinion?

MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: In my opinion, I think it does, Brooke, if you look at exactly what happened. It is interesting, they started videotaping this even before the police got there because apparently this guy possibly with an altered mental status was acting so erratically. And apparently one of the people there also called the police.

But as you see law enforcement pull up, you see them get out. They did not advance towards the man. He pulled something out of his pocket. He said, let me see your hands. And he came at them with a knife, an edged weapon. Then you see him go towards the officer on the passenger side, and he goes up on -- in that parking lot. And then he just -- he keeps saying, "shoot me, shoot me, shoot me." They're trying to tell him to drop the weapon, to stay where he was. Not compliant at all. As he closed in, they had to use deadly force.

BALDWIN: I know, Mike, but help me understand. I'm not the police officer. You have been a cop for decades.

BROOKS: Sure.

BALDWIN: Why not use a Taser? Why shoot him and kill him?

BROOKS: Well, the chief of St. Louis Police said that they had Tasers available to them. But in this particular case, what if they pulled that Taser and you shoot and one of those barbs missed and he's still coming towards that officer? And keep in mind, a Taser is only good for a maximum -- a maximum, Brooke, of 15 feet when those two barbs come out. And many times -- sometimes those barbs do miss.

But in this particular case, he had that weapon out. He came towards police. Police didn't come towards him. Now, if he had stayed back and not kept advancing on the officers, they might have been able to try to talk to him. Try to negotiate with him. But negotiation was not in the picture with him. He kept advancing on the officers. And once you get 20 to 25 feet with an edge weapon, you can close on an officer and do serious bodily injury, or death, in a matter of a second.

BALDWIN: OK. Here's my other question, and here's the other but. Why - and from what I've learned about police training and tactics, you're trained to shoot in the center of the body. But why is that? Why not shoot legs? Is why not -- if you determine in those mere seconds you have as a police officer how much of a threat an individual is, and I know he had that knife -

BROOKS: Right.

BALDWIN: Why not just hit him in the legs, make him fall down? Why shoot him nine times and kill him?

BROOKS: Because most likely if you shoot someone in the legs, they're not going to go down because you're not hitting any major organs. Look, a lot of people are asking me, are cops trained to shoot to kill? No. Police officers are trained to shoot until the threat is negated. And that's what they did. Some people say, well, how many shots is that? It depends. It all depends on where you hit the shots in the center of mass, in the body, or someone's head.

BALDWIN: I just want to get some quick sound in, just to hear the perspective of the St. Louis Police chief. This was his jurisdiction. He was talking to Don Lemon about the shooting. Roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Why use bullets? Why not use a stun gun?

CHIEF SAM DOTSON, ST. LOUIS POLICE: Well, certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers. But Tasers aren't 100 percent. So you've got an individual armed with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says "shoot me now, kill me now." Tasers aren't 100 percent. If that Taser misses, that subject continues on and hurts an officer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That's exactly what you said, Mike Brooks.

BROOKS: There you go.

BALDWIN: Mike Brooks, thank you so much for joining me, as always. Your decades in law enforcement always helpful to talk to someone like you. Appreciate it.

BROOKS: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Just ahead here on CNN, one man is giving young African- American men 10 rules to survive an encounter with police. We'll talk to him live about that.

Also inside the secret mission that aimed to save the American journalist who was recently beheaded by ISIS militants. I'll talk live with a Navy SEAL about the risks.

And today some good news. Two Ebola patients leaving the hospital. What's next for them? Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just a quick heads up. Very soon we do expect to hear straight from the Pentagon, details of the daring nighttime military mission, a rescue mission in Syria, in the sands of northern Syria this summer, probably near Raqqa (ph), that failed to bring home journalist James Foley. Foley was gone, according to United States officials, when a special forces unit landed in this desert, battled their way to this oil refinery where they had hoped to find Foley and even perhaps other Americans held by ISIS. James Foley is now dead. His shocking execution having stirred both deep concern and anger among Americans.

And speaking of anger, what about this? A story out today says ransoms paid by European governments to ISIS are one of the terror group's biggest sources of income. So that's where they're getting their money, they're getting it from ransoms, from governments. I want you to take a listen. This is an interview from "Erin Burnett OutFront."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID ROHDE, JOURNALIST ONCE HELD BY TALIBAN: Kidnappings are working. Al Qaeda affiliates have raised at least $125 million from kidnappings in the last five years. They've raised $60 million alone last year. France denies it. Germany, Spain, other countries, they pay ransoms. There were journalists from France and Spain who were held with Foley by the Islamic State. Ransoms were paid for them. They're home safe now. Jim Foley is dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: At one time, Jim Foley's captors reportedly set a ransom of $130 million. They didn't get it. They didn't get it from the family, not from his employers, not from the U.S. government. Now the United States says paying ransoms to terrorists only encourages more hostage- taking. So Chris Voss joins me now. He's a former hostage negotiator for the FBI, now managing director with Insight Security. And we also have Chad Williams, former Navy SEAL, author and speaker.

So, gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

CHRIS VOSS, FORMER FBI HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: Thank you, Brooke.

CHAD WILLIAMS, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Thanks for having us on.

BALDWIN: You got it.

Chris, to you first. You know, if European governments -- specific European governments are saying, OK, we'll pay. They're paying, you know, eight-figure ransoms and getting their hostages in return. Do you think the U.S. should do so as well? VOSS: No, I don't. And first of all, Brooke, I'd like to say that

killing James Foley was a dishonorable thing to do. James Foley was an honorable man.

Now, in regards to the ransoms, the way the western Europeans are approaching this is a little bit like if there was a bank robber that showed up and they made it a point to immediately open the vault and dump out all the money at the same time. I mean the way that they've responded is just idiotic. So it's an uncontrolled way in which they pay. And you can't blame ISIL for wanting to do this because the Europeans open up their bank vaults to them. It's an unwise way to approach the problem.

BALDWIN: Do you agree, Chad, that the U.S. shouldn't open our bank vaults to these terrorists either?

WILLIAMS: Certainly not. You know, when thinking about these types of issues, I look to the wisest man that ever walked the face of the earth, Jesus of Nazareth. And he says, you know, in Matthew Chapter 4, at least we see the principle that you don't make deals with the devil. And you certainly don't make deals with terrorists. They're like a bully on the street. If you take the money out of your pocket and give it to them, you think it's going to happen again? Certainly will.

So you certainly have to put up a fight. Sometimes you could win those fights, sometimes you lose, but at least you make them know that it's going to cost them something. They're going to pay for this. And that principle that there is no rest for the wicked, that certainly is true, as well. We're going to go after these guys. And there certainly is a very special place in hell for men like this.

BALDWIN: I agree. Beheading James Foley and also beheading children, the personification of evil.

Chad, let me just stay with you because just given your expertise and experience as a Navy SEAL, let me just ask you about this rescue mission that, unfortunately, failed to find and secure Foley. You know, we will be hearing details -- just a reminder to our viewers -- from Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel from the Pentagon at some point very, very shortly. But here's what we know, Chad. We know that -- or at least we're told U.S. troops were dropped into northern Syria. Actually had to shoot it out with some of the militants. They did kill some militants. But they couldn't find Foley. You know, at that point he and others were already gone. In a situation like this, though, how do you go in, how do you rescue your target without getting killed by captors first? I mean that has to be a massive risk.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, the element of surprise is very important here, so I can't give away any operational details. But the point is, is that we'll put up a fight. And we're willing to lay down our lives for the sake of freedom to go after men like this. So instead of dishing out money, we're willing to shed blood. You know, if it was my own family, somebody that was taken captive, I would say, you know what, I want the very best men on this. You send them out there. I know what they're willing to do. I used to be one of these guys. And, you know what, Foley's own mother, you know, she put out that she's never been prouder of her son. That, you know, he did lay down his life, really, for the sake of freedom. And that is an example of the greatest act of love. There is no greater love than that, to lay down one's life for his friends. And that's what we have troops that are willing to do, very highly skilled men and women to go after men like this that commit these acts of violence.

BALDWIN: I mentioned beheading of children by this militant group. This is what I have heard in interviews and accounts. It should be clear, CNN has not been able to verify that, but that's what we've heard.

Chris, to you, as a former hostage negotiator, when you have found yourself negotiating with incredibly evil people, you know, people holding hostages, has it ever paid off to try to find a sense of humanity, if it exists, and appeal to that?

VOSS: Well, the essence of being a hostage negotiator, or negotiation of any kind, is to be able to connect with the other side. As abhorrent as that may sound from the outside, to effectively influence the other side, you have to connect with them. You have to find out a way to even respect them in order to establish rapport, even in the most horrific (INAUDIBLE).

BALDWIN: How do you do that, other than talk money?

VOSS: You find out about -- say something to them that they don't understand that makes them want to hear more. You actually draw them into a dialogue because then it becomes an information-gathering process on your part. You learn more about the adversary. And then dependent upon the outcome, maybe something you use against them at a future date.

BALDWIN: Chris Voss and Chad Williams, thank you both very much. And back to Ferguson.

VOSS: My pleasure, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Back to Ferguson. Commotion erupts as a supporter of the officer who shot Michael Brown joined protests. And she's not the only one who's out there demonstrating.

Also, we'll speak live with one man who's giving young African- American men what he calls 10 rules for surviving a police encounter.

And it's only been three weeks since two Ebola patients arrived on U.S. soil, but today they are both out of the hospital. Where did they go? Is the public safe? That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)