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Dr. Drew
Missouri Still Under State of Emergency
Aired August 21, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VDIEOTAPE)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, another eyewitness, another account of how Michael Brown died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve seen the officers shooting at him while he was running away.
PINSKY: Whom do you believe?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wasn`t causing no harm to anybody. We had no weapons on us at all.
PINSKY: Will we ever learn the truth about what happened 12 days ago in Ferguson? The dead teen`s parents reveal their thoughts. We will hear
from them.
Plus, a boy with autism badly beaten. No one stopped the attack but they did record it.
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening. I`m coming to you tonight from Columbus Circle, CNN Center in New York. And my co-host Samantha Schacher is in Los
Angeles.
Coming up, we will hear from Michael Brown`s parents and what they`re thinking tonight about the time since their son was killed.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes, that`s right, Dr. Drew.
And she has some interesting things to say about trust and whether or not she can ever get that back.
PINSKY: First up, though, cooler heads prevailing in Ferguson, demonstrations have dwindled tonight, tempers flare here and there. Take a
look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overnight in Ferguson, the first real hint of calm. One brief confrontation when demonstrators and supporters of Officer
Darren Wilson collide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were no Molotov cocktails tonight, no fires, no shootings.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police approached Mike Brown, he was still just a suspect. He wasn`t guilty of anything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Protesters were out, but the man in charge of security in Ferguson says only six people were arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As you can see, the street is pretty much open.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t have the side of the story of Officer Wilson. We still have no idea if there are going to be any charges brought
against him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer Darren Wilson who shot and killed Brown has his own supporters. Two Facebook pages have emerged in the days since
the killing. Between them, they have more than 90,000 likes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We demand that Darren Wilson be charge.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O`DONNELL: Joining us, Karamo Brown, host of #OWNShow on Oprah.com, Evy Poumpouras, former special agent for Secret Service, Danine Manette,
criminal investigator, author of "Ultimate Betrayal", and I have CNN correspondent Stephanie Elam in Ferguson.
Steph, what is going on there tonight?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dr. Drew, tonight, we`re out by the impromptu memorial where Michael Brown died here on the street here.
I just want to show you what is going on here. Since the sun has started going down, we`ve seen a trail of roses placed silently by a small group of
people who have come out here to leave these roses here. We`ve also seen a small group coming in singing spirituals and praying as well. A lot of
people coming just to regard the scene.
I even saw out here Mike Brown`s mother. She also came out and regarded the memorial, had a moment there before moving along and getting
back in her car and leaving.
So, people coming out here to pay their respects. But it`s very peaceful. It`s very respectful and a lot of people here just wanting to
make sure that the focus remains on remembering Mike Brown, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Thanks, Stephanie.
All right. So, my question to my panel tonight is, what if the legal process mills through its procedures, and it`s going to take a while. It`s
going to make people very frustrated I`m sure, and let`s say no charges are issued against the officer.
Danine, are people going to say that was justice or is the only kind of justice is where the justice goes the way, say, me or you want it to go?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Quite honestly, Dr. Drew, I think that`s going to happen, because even the people that we`re witnessing
the incident, their stories are inconsistent. The information that a lot of people are giving does not mix with the facts and the things that are
being presented by the coroner`s report and whatnot.
You know, as far as whether or not there was a justifiable shooting, that`s still up in the air. I mean, there are obvious injuries that the
officer sustained. And so, it`s really hard to say what happened. There was no dash cam, there was no, you know, a device that recorded the entire
accident. I honestly don`t think there`s enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this was an unjustified killing in a court of law.
So, I think that is exactly what`s going to end up happening --
PINSKY: Evy, you agree with that?
EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: I hope that doesn`t happen. I hope that they do get some good testimonies.
The thing is this -- the positive thing is that we don`t know everything. I know for certain when you work an investigation you hold
everything close to the vest. FBI has been brought in. They have specialists interviewing a lot of these witnesses trying to get the
information, seeing what matches, what doesn`t.
It`s possible that they are giving polygraphs. Polygraphs sometimes are given to witnesses to test the veracity of their statements. Not
whether they recollect something or not, but whether somebody is lying intentionally.
So, hopefully, all of that information can give us something stable, something sturdy, so that at least the community feels that this is a fair
process.
PINSKY: And, Karamo, see, I think Evy used an interesting word saying fair. And the word "justice" is being thrown around a lot. I`m fearful
that if the course of justice plays out and doesn`t go the way somebody wants it to go, somebody is going to be pissed.
KARAMO BROWN, #OWNSHOW HOST: Of course, Dr. Drew. If this man is not found guilty, this is going to leave our country damaged and divided. But
I`m hoping if that happens, that people are propelled into finding solutions and changing -- having themselves, you know, demanding that
change happens. Because what`s happening here is that there`s police brutality. There`s so many injustices that are happening.
And America is slipping to this dark age. And we need to wake up and we need to support each other and get back to a place where things are
happening, for the best of all Americans.
PINSKY: There`s a lot of strong language flying around. Sam, ever night you hear me in her hammering everybody, how do we move forward, how
do we talk about it? You`re the one sitting there quietly listening to me. Do you get my frustration?
SCHACHER: I do, Dr. Drew. I do get your frustration. But, you know what? Unfortunately, there is a lot of pain and anger and a lot of
everybody divided. But at the end of the day, Dr. Drew, hopefully, we can use this as an example to have to police department and the community, the
residents to have some sort of camaraderie in an attempt to rebuild that trust with police, community policing. I mean, that`s the only way we can
move forward.
PINSKY: All right. But that is something very concrete you`re mentioning, which is community policing.
For people who haven`t heard that concept, it`s having the law enforcement force reflect the community. So, be more racially represented
in the community and that they sort of invest themselves.
Danine, did you hear that story about the cops that put the basketball net up for the kids, bought a basketball?
MANETTE: I actually posted that on Twitter. I actually posted a situation where some cops got out and they had a basketball game, an
impromptu game with the kids. And see, I think this entire thing would have a lot more traction if people pulled away from the poor Mike Brown,
he`s a victim, innocent kid shot in the back and all of that, and looked at something concrete, like perhaps, why is it that law enforcement is to
quick to draw guns on people without weapons, instead of making it as a racial issue and what it is. Black will always be black and white will
always be white.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Is it just me?
MANETTE: So, until we focus on concrete issues, we`re not going to get anywhere.
PINSKY: Well, here`s a concrete issue, I`ve got to go to break here guys. But it seems like tasers are used a lot more on the West. Wherever
I -- right? I mea, Sam, you probably saw somebody tased today out in Los Angeles. I mean, tasers are used a lot. You don`t see a lot of guns being
drawn.
Evy, is that a difference in philosophy or training or what?
POUMPOURAS: It varies from police department to police department. I tell you this, not all law enforcement officers carry tasers. It`s usually
the supervisors that carry them. So, that`s the other thing. Everyone is saying why didn`t they tase them? They might not have had a taser with
them.
Or if at that moment where if, in fact, Michael Brown was ambushing the officer, did he have time -- you can`t say hold a moment, let me get my
taser. It`s a difficult thing.
PINSKY: I thought the cousin said something powerful last night. He said OK, my cousin may have done something wrong. The officer got a black
eye, my cousin got a (AUDIO GAP). That`s where the rubber hits the road --
SCHACHER: That`s profound.
PINSKY: -- and where people get uncomfortable with this thing.
All right. Next up, things are, of course, still tense in Ferguson. I`ll show you an interview that started out poorly and went worse.
Later, we`ll here from -- that`s Don Lemon. You see him there. It was interesting.
Next, later, we`ll hear from Michael Brown`s parents. We`re back after this.
(COMMERICIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TALIB KWELI, RAPPER: The CNN report, the headlines says, cometh bottles fly. They continue mention the bottles in the article. In the
article, you read, there`s no mention of the bottles flying. I saw the bottle fly.
You knew when the bottle flew? After the cops told me they`re going to blow my f-ing even head off. After the cops -- I`m not done. After the
cops put on riot gear, put up their shield, and took their batons out and lined up on the streets. And then when they got into a position, a bottle
comes out of a peaceful protest, that will make no sense here.
DON LEMON, CNN: You`re not seeing everything that`s going on.
KWELI: Of course not.
LEMON: So, from position, the article you`re looking at on CNN is one if not hundreds of thousands that are written.
KWELI: That`s true.
LEMON: And also, it`s a small part of 24 hours of news coverage that we have here on CNN.
KWELI: Which is I why I said it wasn`t intentional.
LEMON: And as far as you saying me coming up, I have a job to do. What I`m doing on television is in this phone. I`m reading -- hang on.
I`m reading --
KWELI: I have enough respect to greet you if I never meet you, brother. To greet you, to say how are you doing?
LEMON: I said how are you doing?
KWELI: No, you did not.
LEMON: I did.
KWELI: No, you didn`t. That`s a lie.
LEMON: Did I not walk up to you --
(CROSSTALK)
KWELI: No, you didn`t. You skated by here and I said hello to you, and you say, hey, what`s up?
LEMON: I`m trying to get on the air, I`m working.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Poor Don Lemon. I`m back with Sam, Karamo, Evy and Danine. Heated exchange between, of course, CNN anchor Don Lemon, and rapper Talib
Kweli.
Karamo, you get why I`m struggling with this? We`ve been talking and talking and we`re not getting anywhere. We`re getting in more heated
exchanges rather than any movement. What`s it going to take if he is found not guilty or not taken to prison or charged, or something, this is going
to be more trouble.
BROWN: Yes, definitely. Well, first let me say, that clip with Don Lemon and Talib Kweli, I love the fact that those two African-American men
ended their clip -- their argument with a peaceful exchange of saying, you know what, I understand you, I appreciate you.
And that`s what it`s going to take. It`s going take everyone in this country coming together, because we are divided. And people need to sit at
the table together. I think in the clip, Don Lemon said we`re going to end this like he would at the kitchen table, together breaking bread with love.
And that`s what America needs to do at the end of this, is that they need to come together and they need to start figuring out solutions and
that solution is mobilizing, because there`s too much police brutality, these people have been trained poorly, and that`s why they`re handling this
so bad.
PINSKY: Karamo, I want to get to Evy on that. That`s what I`m sort of spinning with tonight, and only thought about it until the change of the
cameras here, I`ve started obsessing about this, is the difference between what I see in the city where I spend most of my time, which is Los Angeles,
and what I think I`m seeing out there in the Midwest, which I see in Los Angeles lots of slow pursuits with lots of show of force, lots of use of
dogs, safe use of dogs, dogs aren`t harmed and lots of tasers and rubber bullets.
That`s what we see and they get it done. Why is not -- is anyone having that conversation?
POUMPOURAS: Well, that`s the Los Angeles Police Department. I mean, they`ve got the resources, the assets. They`ve got a lot more experience
in handling something like this.
The city of Ferguson -- Ferguson City Police Department -- they`ve never seen anything like this. I think it`s unfair to compare Ferguson to
an NYPD or to an LAPD. But I think when this stuff happens, when we see this disconnect between the law enforcement entities and how one works
better or more efficient than the other, what they need to do is work collectively and say, you know what? LAPD is doing this. We should bring
them over to train us and work efficiently so they can be better.
Some smaller police departments, they do isolate themselves and figure, you know what, it`s been working up to this point. We`ll stick to
what we`re doing. That doesn`t always work.
PINSKY: And, Sam, a lot of what`s at odds here is the militarization of the police. Not only are they using extreme force, they`re using the
stuff that`s scary as hell.
SCHACHER: Yes, I agree with you, Dr. Drew. I don`t think that`s beneficial. I think if you treat someone like a criminal, they`re going to
act like a criminal. If you meet someone with force, they`re going to respond with force.
And I do think that we should use this opportunity to adopt the policies that do work. To help give more education, more benefits to these
police departments so we can have less loss of life. Because it`s not only Mike Brown that we should be mourning, but let`s talk about Dylan Taylor,
too, the 20-year-old who was unarmed, who was killed just a couple of days by an armed cop.
PINSKY: Is that the footage I have guys, the control room? Is that the footage --
SCHACHER: No. Dylan Taylor is the kid in Utah, 20 years old. He`s a white male, and he was also unarmed. Let`s have police reform so we can
prevent this loss of lives. Let`s have solutions.
PINSKY: And, Danine, to be fair, African on African crime, you see Crystal here bringing that up, that that`s where more of the homicide is
occurring, is it not?
MANETTE: Oh, sure, I mean, yes. Exactly.
But it`s easier to look out a window than in a mirror often. We understand that the number one killer of young black males is young black
males. That goes without saying. And that`s why I think that rather than discussing this as a racial issue as a white cop attacking the black kid,
because we really don`t know about all of the particulars that happened in this situation and it`s really not fair to dump on the police automatically
unless that`s what your agenda is, we need to get more facts. We need to look at this broader as far as how the police can interact better in the
communities that they have to police in order to make people feel inclusive and trusting of them.
A lot of police departments are able to do that well. But others are just not. And I think that`s a better issue for us to focus our intention
on rather than us trying to dispel all of the racial issues that we have. It`s not going to happen.
PINSKY: I got to go to break, guys. And the words that the president used a couple of nights ago, that ring in my head constantly which is, we
have a history, this country, we have a history. We`ve got to deal with it head on. It seems to be everything we`re talking about, and all of the
different manifestations are part of that history, unless you tie it all together.
I love the concrete solutions. I love Evy saying they train with the LAPD or the NYPD. I love the idea of community based police. It`s very
concrete thing. But there`s a history that if we don`t look at this passionately, thorough, objectively, that history is going to show up again
and cause more trouble in some other way.
Next up, a new witness has yet another take, multiple different witnesses and multiple points of view on what they saw when Michael Brown
was killed. Can we really get a clear view of what exactly happened from these witnesses with such differing views?
And later, a boy was savagely beaten. The video, I almost kid can`t show you. But this kid was autistic. We`ll talk about that later.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A confrontation at Officer Darren Wilson`s police car, then shots fired. For those who claim to know what happened to
Michael Brown, that`s about all they agree on.
MICHAEL BRADY, NEW WITNESS: So I run outside so quick, by the time I gets outside, he`s already turned around, facing the officer. He had his
arms like under his stomach and he was like halfway down, like he was going down. And the officer lets out three or four shots at him.
TIFFANY MITCHELL, WITNESS: He finally gets away, he starts running. The police gets out of his vehicle and he follows behind him shooting. The
kid body jerked as if he was hit from behind. He turned around and puts his hands up like this and the cop continued to fire until he dropped down
to the ground.
FRIEND WHO WAS WITH BROWN: He pursued my friend but his weapon was drawn. He shot again, and once my friend felt the shot, he turned around
put his hands in the air and he started to get down. He fired several more shots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam.
You`re looking presently at a live picture of the memorial tonight where Michael Brown was killed.
Sam, it`s looking a lot better tonight than previous nights. That`s for sure -- the streets there in Ferguson.
SCHACHER: Thank goodness. I hope it continue to move in that direction.
PINSKY: Let`s bring in the behavior bureau, Evy Poumpouras, Jennifer Keitt, life coach, Emily Roberts, psychotherapist.
We heard three accounts, all similar, but different from what supporters of Officer Wilson claimed. They claimed Michael Brown went for
his gun and then Brown bum rushed the officer.
And, Sam, we have new information about Dorian Johnson, one of the witnesses, right, the friend?
SCHACHER: Yes, I do. I have a little bit of history of Dorian Johnson.
So, back in 2011, when we was 19, he was arrested for theft and making a false report. Cops say he lied about his name and age. He was one of
three men accused of stealing a women`s backpack.
Now, his attorney recently told CNN that police told Johnson he had not committed a crime and CNN is waiting for a response from the attorney
whether this affects his credibility as a witness.
PINSKY: And, Evy, I was thinking about the nefarious sort of difficulty of evaluating eyewitness accounts, not to mention how the human
brain works, which Emily, I`ll ask you about that. It`s very difficult.
But I was thinking about the guy that Anderson was interviewing there who says he ran out, he saw Mike Brown bend over and heard three more
shots. If he was 300 yards away, he may have heard those shots quite a bit of time after they were actually fired, just the distance, right?
POUMPOURAS: Yes, that`s correct. You hear the echo.
And then you may also not hear everything. So, that`s why this is difficult. That`s why what they`re doing with these interviews -- I
commend them for not releasing information. That`s smart, because what happens is when you release the information of what the different saw and
heard, they taint one another, and then the stories get distorted.
You don`t want to do that. You want everybody to tell you what they specific saw so you can get to the truth. That`s very, very important.
I know everyone is like putting pressure on law enforcement, give us info. Give us info. Let them collect the right info so it`s correct and
not tainted.
PINSKY: And, then, Emily, you can talk about how difficult it is -- Evy is right. They taint one another`s points of view. They color it.
Our memory is an imperfect instrument and so our perceptual system, laying out what we thing we saw in the first place.
EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Absolutely. Especially when you have a threat or a perceived threat, that is, where there`s a gun. I mean, your
brain is going to go through so many different emotions. But our memory is not going to remember -- excuse me, our nervous system is at play here.
We`re not going to be able to remember everything accurately. It`s like tunnel vision to some capacity. And I`m sure you guys can relate.
I think everyone can relate when we`ve seen an incident or we`ve seen something very scary, we don`t remember every single piece to the puzzle.
We remember bits and pieces.
So, I can`t say under those circumstances that anyone`s testimony is going to be right.
PINSKY: When it`s super intense, our memory isn`t laid down accurately.
ROBERTS: It`s not, no.
PINSKY: Evy, was that you that described something like that, you`re in accident or something? Was that you?
POUMPOURAS: Well, yes, you know what, what I would wanted to say actually with regard to what Emily said, we would do a lot of training
scenarios in law enforcement where they would put a lot of stress on us. They would have us clear houses and practice as if we were in real life
shooting situations,
And then after the fact, they would ask us what did you see, how many shots did you fire, what was the apartment number in the door. I can`t
tell you how many times I could not recollect certain information because of the stress, the adrenaline, the tunnel vision. That happens and that
was in a controlled environment.
PINSKY: There you go.
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: You know, I wonder, Dr. Drew, because they have so many people that have really come forward. Will they not do a
vantage point compilation so that you have so --
PINSKY: I`m sure.
KEITT: I`m almost honestly encouraged by the fact that there is so many conflicting testimonies because at least you have a lot of information
to go through and to pull the story together accurately.
PINSKY: Jennifer, last time you were on the show, you were so eloquent, and I thought you moved the conversation forward. I saw a tweet
next to -- I think it was next to Emily`s head, they put these things up to our head on the screen here. And it said, if you guys can find it, it
says, what is justice?
Put that one up again. I thought that was a very -- there it is. High profile is writing that.
Jennifer, can you help me understand. That`s sort of where my head is tonight also. What are people actually won? What is the meaning of
justice? Is that a conversation we need to include in all of this?
KEITT: I mean, absolutely I would think so. If I was a mom that lost a son, I know what I would want is I would want to know that everybody
involved is fighting to understand exactly what happened. That would be justice for me. Not so much who gets punished, but making sure that the
story, the correct story, every detail that happened comes forward.
And I think right now, so many people have so much vested interest in this story that I`m sad, I`m concerned, I`m frustrated, I`m angry. Like
everyone else in the country. Because I`m not quite sure that we`re actually going to get to truth, you know.
POUMPOURAS: I don`t think we are. I really don`t think we have.
PINSKY: Sam, last thoughts. Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes, last thoughts, just thinking about, you just said, Jennifer, that we want the correct facts, the correct story.
PINSKY: The truth.
SCHACHER: We talked about the eyewitness testimony. If they`re unreliable because of all of these outside influences and variables, why
can`t we ensure and enforce that they have to take a polygraph tests.
PINSKY: Well, Evy suggests that. But polygraphs aren`t the answer to everything, guys.
SCHACHER: Enforce it. You can`t --
PINSKY: Are they intentionally lying? We`re talking about the normal function of the brain not able to remember these things, right, Evy?
POUMPOURAS: Yes, there`s two different things. You give polygraph to someone if you think they`re being intentionally deceitful. But you can`t
force people to take a polygraph. That`s something people have to say that they voluntarily consent to.
PINSKY: Thank you. Got to go.
Next up, Michael Brown`s parents, they`re speaking about their son, what happened, what they`re thinking about since the thing about the
investigations so far.
Back after this.
Also, a teen -- autistic teen beat up at a party.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN`S MOTHER: You can read a person. And, when you are looking at them and they are looking at you in your eyes,
it puts some trust back there. That you lost.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Do you have confidence in the investigations?
MCSPADDEN: He made me feel like one day I will and I am not saying today or yesterday, but one day they will regain my trust.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER KEITT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I wish that I could say, Dr. Drew, that the prosecution of that officer is going to bring the peace that
we are looking for, but I honestly do not believe that.
PINSKY: What is it going to take?
KEITT: What is it going to take? We are going to have to have national dialogue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Jennifer, Emily and Spirit. She is the host of the "Daily Helpline." And, we have in Ferguson as the National Guard is
withdrawing, let`s check in with Stephanie Elam. Steph, how are things right now?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is a very different scene out here today, Dr. Drew. I want to show you right now. This is where Mike
Brown died and this is the memorial where people have been coming today leaving roses, leaving toys and hats. This sign obviously here.
And, then, within the last 30 minutes or so we have seen people come out and leaving these candles here as well, another memorial behind us as
well. So, it is very calm and it is almost loving, the energy that you feel out here with people coming out and paying their respects. It is a
diverse group of people who are coming out.
A very different scene than what we have seen in Ferguson the other day. This feels really like it is about community out here tonight and the
people are coming out here to pay their respects, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Right. Thank you, Stephanie. And, Jennifer, I want to go back out to you. You ended that little bump in by talking about the
conversation we need to have.
JENNIFER KEITT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
PINSKY: And, one of the places that people are talking is in social media. And, lo and behold you received -- was it an e-mail or some post on
social media. After that -- I think it was that very show what we showed that clip from.
KEITT: Yes.
PINSKY: All right. Now, this e-mail really bothered me. And, I need to warn the viewers, the language in the e-mail is offensive. But, I think
we need to kind of look at it. Again, if having this conversation, it means looking at the ugly warts. Here it is. So, I will let you have at
it, Jennifer.
KEITT: Yes. So, it said, "I just watched the interview you were on with Dr. Drew. It is instigators like you and Jackson and Sharpton that
causes ignorant, lazy" -- in capital letters, "BLACKS to have such difficult lives. Being involved in public education for decades I know, in
capital letters, what your race has done and caused to bring it down, in capital letter to the bottom.
Even those of you in administration are often more of the problems than those feral students. If it was not, in capital letters, for
affirmative action, the most of you would be cleaning toilets and back in our cotton fields, where whites were safe and without fear of being killed
by your people." And, that is the tame portion of --
PINSKY: Right. And, the network has asked me to stop there. If you can believe it, it gets worse.
KEITT: Yes. It is funny. Not funny in ha-ha kind of way. But, I think when I first read it I was sad. I have learned, because I was first
called the "N" word when I was in 7th grade.
And, so I think for any African-American that has lived in America, being the target, if you will, of racial slurs and all kinds of thoughts
and ideology about blacks, that is kind of par for the course or par of the territory.
With this letter in particular, though, because I know that the conversation that we were having on Tuesday evening was so rich and it was
so good, I really took this to be honestly a wakeup call that there does need to continually be this kind of dialogue.
You know, I put the entire letter in my Facebook family and dozens and dozens and dozens of people weighed in. And, I am telling you, it is
still very much a hot-button topic of conversation.
PINSKY: And, Spirit, I want to hear from you, too. And, let me just say, maybe, you know, I am hearing a lot from the story, the intermediate
group who is saying that by having these conversations you are inflaming passions.
And, I heard someone talking the other day, it was actually a feminist, I believe. There were two feminists talking. And, they were
talking about women`s issues and the overlap with some of the African American black issues.
And, this white woman said -- the white woman said to the African- American woman, what do you see when you look in the mirror? And, the white woman said, "Well, I see a woman." And, the black woman said, "Well,
I see a black woman." You tend to see that first. Why does it have to be that way? Is it guys that write those letter that make it that way?
SPIRIT CLANTON, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: No. It is not. We all prioritize what we see when we looked in the mere mirror based on our experiences.
Some people might look at themselves by their race first. Others might look at themselves by their gender first. Others might look at themselves
by their nationality first.
Where you prioritize is totally based on your life experiences. And, you know, when I hear that letter that was written to Jennifer, you know,
part of me goes, "Wow! How horrible is that?" But, then there is that other piece that tells me that she struck a nerve. That that got the
conversation happening, because those dozens and dozens and dozens of people who weighed in that are all too often silent at this conversation --
KEITT: Yes.
CLANTON: -- you heard me say this on Tuesday, until we get real, until we hash out emotions, until we hash out frustrations and until
everyone is invited to this conversation, even the voices that we do not necessarily want to hear will never get anywhere.
KEITT: Exactly.
CLANTON: So, I welcome it.
EMILY ROBETS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Thank you for sharing that.
PINSKY: That is right. Thank you for putting it in that context. I want to keep it there and put it in a box for a moment. Hopefully, we will
continue to have these conversations. We are going to now change gears to something that outraged me, caught my eye.
A boy with autism, beaten at a party. Video of the crime then goes viral. Somebody stands there and takes the video for one thing. It was
one of the bothersome aspects of this. We will tell you about it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CAPTION)
A boy with autism is beaten at a party. Cell phone video captures the alleged assault on 16-year-old Aaron Hill.
(END VIDEO CAPTION)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: This video of the 16-year-old with autism getting beaten went viral after the attack last Friday.
LESLIE HILL, MOTHER OF THE 16-YEAR-OLD KID WITH AUTISM: I am scared to let him out of my sight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Aaron`s mom said it has been an emotional roller coaster.
HILL: I could have never seen my son smile again. I could have never heard my son laugh again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The suspect, Andrew Wheeler, remains locked up. His family says they are keeping him there because they are
receiving death threats.
HILL: Every emotion that everybody has felt, I have felt that and then some.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Back with Sam, Emily, Spirit and Karamo. After they saw -- police found that teen, the teen with autism lying in the road.
He had to be treated in the hospital for neck injury, contusions and a concussion.
And, we have more of this video. I am warning you, it is graphic. It has been shared on Facebook and YouTube tens of thousands of times.
Sam, tell us about the events leading up to the beating. I cannot understand what went on here.
SAM SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Dr. Drew -- yes, prepare to be pissed off, the more you see that video, disgusting. So, Aaron Hill, he
told police that he was invited to the residence, OK? He drank two glasses of whiskey while he was there and then he laid on the floor.
At some point, he went outside. He learned that somebody wanted to fight him. So, he went back inside. He was frightened. He refused to
leave the house thinking that he was about to get into a fight and that is when he was allegedly assaulted.
PINSKY: Karamo, what do we do with this? I do not have good language for this. Are they so thick, sick? Everything that rhymes with ick? That
they can appreciate that people have liabilities and may be it is not all about us, and we have to beat people up because they are behaving
differently?
KARAMO BROWN, TELEVISION HOST: Well, you know, you said something, Dr. Drew, liability. And, the liability lies on these parents. And, I
have said this once, twice, many times on this show. I am always dumbfounded that the parents are not involved.
I tell you, as a father I do not go to sleep at night without checking my child`s social media. Secondly, if my children ever want to go
to a party, I am at that party to check out what is going on, especially if I have a child with special needs. Why was I not there to make sure that
he was not drinking alcohol and laid out on the ground.
Thirdly, the parent who let that party happen at their house and was there, provided the alcohol, these are the people that need to be
reprimanded in the situation; because we need to send a clear message to American parents that until you start teaching your children the proper
tools to be empathetic and to not do disgusting things like this, we are going to continuously have these horrible children growing up to be
horrible adults.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Spirit, I think Karamo has an interesting point here. Not only that, when my kids were teens I said, "Look, you are going
to press limits at things." But if an adult, if an adult gives you alcohol or has knowledge of you doing an illegal acts, I am going to show up with
the sheriffs and I am going to have those parents hold their butts for that. Spirit, is that a good idea?
CLANTON: You know, it is. And, this story has more questions than answers for me. I mean I see that mom put up the whole, you know, justice
for Aaron and we are back to justice and all of these things. But, in listening to your producers, the number of times that they attempted to
have her come on and explain where she was a before all of this, we are not getting that piece of this.
And, what I will say is this is just one for story of thousands that we see with this same situation happening time and time again. Underage
drinking, fighting, and they use the whole situation of autism.
I do not want that to be fallen in this conversation. But, by the same token we do not know how high functioning he was. I mean he is 16
years old at a party without his parents. Did the boy that was fighting him know that he had autism? We do not know the whole story here. There
is so many pieces that are missing in this story for me.
ROBERTS: My bigger concern here is the videotaping. I mean the fact that this was videotaped --
CLANTON: But, listen, how many stories have we seen where there are children fighting on videotape --
ROBERTS: That is true, and at the same time --
CLANTON: -- We have websites dedicated to that.
BROWN: Well, Emily and Spirit, regardless of how many times we have seen the story, it goes back to parents. Because the reason we are seeing
this over and over again is because parents are not stepping up. I work in social services and the amount of children that I deal with are saying to
me their parents have no concern with them, their parents are not aware of what they are doing. It is because parents have not been taught to parent
properly, and that is the real issue here.
CLANTON: But, you know what, Karamo? I will tell you this. If the parent has not been taught at a certain point, we have to take onus. Now,
yes, these are our children but our children have to have a plan for themselves too. If you are 16 years old, you are making the decision
whether or not you want to drink. If you are fighting, you are making the decision whether you want to engage in that fight if you were the initiator
of that fight.
ROBERTS: Well, to think about that this is 16 years old, he is a kid -- he is a different kid essentially, and he was invited to a party. That
is got to feel really good and you are 16.
CLANTON: We still do not know. We still do not know.
PINSKY: Sam.
SCHACHER: And, he shield himself at the end of the day autistic or not, whether this kid was drinking or not, this kid is on the floor
shielding himself while this 18-year-old is beating him up. No excuses.
PINSKY: And, let me say, you guys did mention holding the adults accountable. We are learning that the woman who lives at the home where
the alleged assault occurred has -- there she is. She has also been arrested.
Police say she did know teens were drinking alcohol at the home. And listen, the adults -- obviously, the 18-year-old was the one doing the
beating. But, the adults take all of the liability for what goes on in that house.
CLANTON: But, even then it was a misdemeanour, Dr. Drew, a misdemeanour. So, what message are we sending still?
PINSKY: Well, here is the message -- give me the camera for a second. I will send the message. Because, whatever the circumstance, when there is
an adverse outcome with a teenager -- to a certain extent with young adults as well, but certainly with teenagers, whenever you measure adverse
outcome, that is to say a death, a beating, an accident, a STD, an pregnancy, an unwanted sexual contact, you always find alcohol or
substances and essentially it is almost always alcohol. So, if you do not want to be responsible for one of those things, do not let your kid drink
and do not have kids drink in you house. Make sense?
ROBERTS: There you go.
PINSKY: There you go. We are going to keep this going, back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW WHEELER, SUSPECT IN BEATING AN AUTISTIC KID: Get the (EXPLICIT WORD) floor.
AARON HILL, 16-YEAR-OLD KID WITH AUTISM: Oh my God.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: OK. All right.
HILL: Oh my God. You are going to get your (EXPLICIT WORD).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hey! I got a son sleeping in my house.
WHEELER: Yes.
WHEELER: Get up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Take it outside.
WHEELER: Get out the door. Get out the door.
HILL: I am getting up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: All right. Get up. Get outside. Take this boy outside. I will be pissed.
WHEELER: Get outside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow. Amazing. Back with Sam, Emily, Spirit and Karamo. Cell phone video captures the assault of a 16-year-old boy with autism.
Video has gone viral. And, Sam, some famous folks are also tweeting about the story. Tell me about that.
SCHACHER: Yes. That video just brought tears to my eyes. Aaron Paul, you guys know him from "Breaking Bad." He played Jesse Pinkman. He
too is also outraged. So, he tweeted Aaron the victim and invited him to Los Angeles, offered to take him to Disneyland.
Aaron Paul also tweeted the perpetrator of the assault. He wrote, quote, "Andrew Wheeler, you are a psycho. Do you feel like a man now?
Everyone filming and letting this happen are also psycho. #justiceforaaron."
PINSKY: Emily, let`s talk about the perpetrator here. It is a complete breakdown in empathy. Right?
ROBERTS: Completely.
PINSKY: I mean he has zero -- zero sense of the child existing except that is now punching bag.
ROBERTS: Exactly. And, I think that what you guys said earlier about the witnesses, that the people around them were teaching these people
to be silent bystanders. When you see a child who is suffering like this or a person in general suffering like this, say something. If you do not
feel safe stepping up, call the police. This is terrible, terrible stuff for kids to be doing. And, then, we see it all the time, like Spirit said
earlier.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: Well, I think what I heard somebody say was, "If you wake up my baby, I am going to be pissed." Which tells you how desensitized
everybody was to the situation.
ROBERTS: Right. Absolutely.
CLANTON: And, so, we have to take onus. We have to get real about the fact that we do not deal with each other like human beings. We take
out our frustrations, our aggressions, our anger, and we are not learning how to have relationships with each other. We are really breaking down.
PINSKY: Now, look -- looking at the three on the bottom row here all of who have clinical lives working with patients, working with humans. I
agree wholeheartedly. The whole show tonight is about that, Spirit. I mean really when you get right down to it.
And, I brought up a specific thing here, Emily. I said empathic failure, which is really what at the heart of this. Karamo, can you help
people understand what that even means, when Spirit says we do not deal with each other as human beings. To be able to appreciate others humanity,
you have to have empathy.
ROBERTS: You do. Right.
BROWN: Completely, Dr. Drew. You have to have empathy. And, I go back to what Aaron Paul said. It was great that he is bringing awareness,
because that is powerful as a celebrity. But, I disagree with the fact that he called this man a psycho, because that is where we are going again.
We are now -- we are going to victimize. We are going to say that he is wrong.
He is wrong for doing this, but calling him a psycho is only going to encourage more negative behaviour from all the people that follow him.
What we need to be doing is we need to, like Spirit said, looking at this young man as a human being who is being misguided, and saying, "You know
what? We recognize that you did something horrible. And, if you want to get help, we are here to help you and support you, because clearly you did
not get that help and support from the family or the people at home with you or people in your life.
ROBERTS: That is right --
CLANTON: You are nicer than me. That is not what I said.
SCHACHER: I could learn from you, Karamo.
ROBERTS: I was also thinking about clinically ill. He could be clinically ill at this point. I mean if you really think about it,
misguided is a really, really sweet way to put it. And, at the end of the day, he could be really sick and clinically ill person who cannot have
empathy
PINSKY: Well, or at least -- Right. But, some of those people I would turn over to Spirit, though because they do not respond to therapy.
(LAUGHING)
CLANTON: Exactly. This is my point.
ROBERTS: Exactly. Exactly.
CLANTON: We cannot get to a point, and we are deteriorating as a society. We are treating someone well and with respect is a luxury. As
long as our needs are met, as long as we are happy and we are getting what we want then we will be nice to our neighbour. But the moment things are
not going the way we want them to, then everything about that person becomes devalued and out the window. We are a sick selfish society and we
have to get it together. We have to.
ROBERTS: Great point.
PINSKY: I totally agree. I think that is a great place to sort of again end our conversation tonight. I want to thank Karamo and Danine and
Emily for having gotten the memo to wear the salmon, color tonight. You, guys, all wore the exact the same color.
(LAUGHING)
BROWN: Looks good, Dr. Drew. You got to wear it.
PINSKY: Well, you and I got the white going. I do not know -- Sam, I do not know what happened to you.
CLANTON: The black and white. There it is.
SCHACHER: I always wear black and white.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: All right, you, guys, thank you very much. DVR us so you can watch us anytime. Forensic files, now.
END
