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ISIS Sleeper Cells in the US?; Cops Armed Like Military; Interview with Rep. Hank Johnson; Ballistics Experts Believe Bullets Reveal Clues in Brown's Death

Aired August 22, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Carol Costello.

Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel made it very clear ISIS is an imminent threat to every interest we have. He added this is beyond anything we've seen. We must prepare for everything, including ISIS attacks here at home.

Some experts go even further, like John McCain. He believes that an ISIS sleeper cell is already operating inside the United States. CNN's Brian Todd joins me now to tell us more.

Good morning, Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.

The threat information this morning is chilling from U.S. intelligence officials. They are telling us they have indications that ISIS already has cells in Europe that could attack U.S. interests. John McCain, as you mentioned, also some analysts believe they could develop cells in the United States. One analyst we talked to says they already have. Now that's in line with the threat made by that one ISIS militant who killed James Foley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): Moments before beheading James Foley, his executioner, an ISIS terrorist, warns of more attacks on Americans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any attempt by you, Obama, to deny the Muslims their rights of living in safety under the Islamic Caliphate will result in the bloodshed of your people.

TODD: New indications that ISIS could harm more Americans and others in the west. A U.S. intelligence official tells CNN they have indications of ISIS cells in Europe, which could attack U.S. embassies and other American interests. The official says it's not clear if those terrorists were ordered by ISIS or if they went on their own. An ISIS fighter threatened the west telling Reuters, quote, "we have also penetrated them with those who look like them."

Does ISIS have cells in America? Former CIA officer Bob Baer believes they do.

BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: I have been told with no uncertainty there are ISIS sleeper cells in this country.

TODD: But two U.S. officials tell CNN they have no indications of ISIS cells inside America right now. Still, they are very concerned that ISIS fighters with western passports could travel to the U.S. and launch attacks. Officials believe a handful of Americans have fought with ISIS in Iraq and Syria, and CNN's Peter Bergen says others have tried to help the group.

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Here you've got three Americans who have been indicted for joining ISIS within the last year, including, by the way, a woman, which is quite unusual. Luckily they were arrested before they could leave the country, but clearly ISIS is sort of -- if you're interested in this ideology, that's the most exciting thing to go and join right now.

TODD: Tracking Americans in ISIS is getting more difficult, especially on the ground in Syria and Iraq. A senior U.S. intelligence official tells us the footprint for American human intelligence in that area is not extensive. Analysts say the ISIS leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, has extra motivation to send his fighters to the U.S.

HARAS RAFIQ, QUILLIAM FOUNDATION: Baghdadi, who is the head of ISIS is a narcissistic psychopath. He wants to be bigger than Osama bin Laden. And one of the ways he will measures that is how effective and how big the terrorist activities he can carry out in the west (ph) compared to what bin Laden was able to do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: Analysts say that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi also has taken a page from Osama bin Laden's propaganda book. They say that al Baghdadi gets the value of shocking the world and the world media. It says that -- they say that he knows how chilling it is for westerners to see a man speaking in a western accent looking into the camera, and then doing a barbaric act like the killing of James Foley. He gets that kind of shock value and that's another page, Carol, from Osama bin Laden's playbook.

COSTELLO: And just to make it clear, Senator John McCain, he fears that ISIS sleeper cells may form in the United States, he doesn't believe they already exist in the United States, right?

TODD: Right.

COSTELLO: OK. So, Brian --

TODD: That's right. Correct.

COSTELLO: OK, Brian, stick around, because now I want to bring in Richard Barrett. He's with the Soufan Group, a security consultancy in New York. He's also a former coordinator of the United Nations al Qaeda and Taliban monitoring team and he worked with the British Secret Intelligence Service. Welcome, Richard.

RICHARD BARRETT, FORMER COUNTER-TERRORISM DIRECTOR, MI6: Thank you.

COSTELLO: You know, Richard, it's difficult to understand why anybody, especially those living in a democracy, would want to join forces with ISIS. What kind of person does that?

BARRETT: Yes, it's pretty difficult, isn't it, particularly for you and me to understand that sort of motivation. But clearly there are quite a few people who are prepared to join in. And I think one of the reasons they do so is because they see in ISIS a force that they can identify with, that would give them some sense of purpose, some sense of meaning in their lives, which perhaps they lack elsewhere. And I think the ability of groups like the Islamic State, ISIS, to dehumanize the opponents, make it much easier for them to commit these terrible acts of violence.

COSTELLO: Richard, it makes me wonder if our leaders learned anything from dealing with al Qaeda.

BARRETT: Well, I think, yes, (INAUDIBLE) if anything the al Qaeda message is (INAUDIBLE) --

COSTELLO: All right, we're going to step away because, of course, we're having technical difficulties with Skype. So can we step away from Richard just a moment and maybe fix the signal. I'll pose this question to you, Brian Todd. The Texas governor, Rick Perry, he believes ISIS terrorists could come over the Texas border from Mexico. He offered no proof of that. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RICK PERRY, TEXAS: I think there is the obvious great concern that because of the condition of the border from the standpoint of it not being secure and us not knowing who is penetrating across, that individuals from ISIS or other terrorist states could be and I think it is a very real possibility that they may have already used that. We have no clear evidence of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. So, Brian, you spent all day yesterday talking to terror experts. Do they believe that ISIS terrorists may cross the border from Mexico into Texas?

TODD: The experts, Carol, believe that it is possible, but it is more likely that they'll come in some other way because most of these ISIS militants who are from the west, from Britain, France, Germany, and from the United States have western passports and it would be just as easy for them to enter the United States through an airport without a visa, as it would be probably for them to cross the border.

Now, we have asked intelligence sources all day yesterday, since Governor Perry made that statement, we've asked our intelligence sources, look, are there any indications that ISIS may be planning to come across the border? Have they already tried to come across the southern border? And none of our sources said that they have any indications that that has happened. It's always a possibility, Carol, but they don't believe that it's happened yet. And also, Admiral John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, was asked about this at a Pentagon briefing yesterday. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAR ADM. JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: And we have concerns about ISIL's growth and their strength and their global aspirations and we know --

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": But just coming through the border with Mexico?

KIRBY: I've seen no indication that they are coming across the border with Mexico. We have no information that leads us to believe that. That said, we do know they have aspirations to hit western targets and it's something, as Secretary Hagel said yesterday, that we've got to take seriously and we have to try to be ready for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TODD: And just one clarification, that was not a briefing, that was an interview with our Kate Bolduan on CNN's "New Day." So there you have it, Carol. You know, officials are clearly worried about this threat. We have been talking with intelligence sources for the past several weeks about the concerns of ISIS militants who are American, who are European, coming back to the United States. They've learned all these tactics. They've learned how to make bombs. And now they're worried that with their passports they could easily come back and launch attacks against America. That concern we have noticed a real increase in the level of concern among U.S. intelligence officials that that could happen. As for the southern border, maybe not yet, but a possibility.

COSTELLO: All right, Brian Todd, thanks so much. And our regrets to Richard Barrett. We couldn't get your Skype signal to work this morning but hopefully we'll invite you back and hopefully you'll come. We're back in a minute.

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COSTELLO: The unrest in Ferguson following Michael Brown's killing has brought the issue of police militarization to the forefront. Images of protesters culled (ph) by police with armored vehicles and assault weapons caused many to ask, is this sort of weaponry really needed or does it just escalate the tension? Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill is calling for hearings into the issue tweeting, quote, "today I announced a hearing in September to explore all aspects of military equipment and local police."

Now the equipment Ms. McCaskill is referring to includes grenade launchers, Humvees and even mine resistant armored vehicles, often (ph) for towns where it's hard to imagine these kinds of things are need. The staggering level of combat weaponry in small town America has become fodder for comedians, most recently coming into the cross- hairs of HBO's John Oliver.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN OLIVER, HOST, HBO'S "LAST WEEK TONIGHT WITH JOHN OLIVER": Look at Doraville, Georgia, population 8,500. The police there got a tank a while back and up until a few days ago this video was on the front page of their website.

We're gone to stop a burglary! (INAUDIBLE). We're gone to stop a burglary! (INAUDIBLE). The name of that song is -- and this is true -- "Die (EXPLETIVE DELETED) die."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Doraville, Georgia, by the way, covers just three squares miles and incidentally a lawmaker from Georgia has been working on a bill to rein in police militarization for months long before Michael Brown's shooting and ensuing civil unrest in Ferguson. That man, Congressman Hank Johnson, joins me now from Atlanta.

Welcome, sir.

REP. HANK JOHNSON (D), GEORGIA: Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: I notice you weren't laughing at John Oliver's bit on Doraville.

JOHNSON: Well, no, it's the kind of display that, when you're trying to run a police department policing an urban area, do you show up in garb that makes you look like you're ready to go into combat on the streets of Iraq? That's unacceptable.

COSTELLO: Your bill, the Stop Militarizing Law Enforcement Act, what exactly would it do?

JOHNSON: Well, what it would do is to stop a Pentagon program that transfers surplus military equipment straight from the battlefield to the local law enforcement agency that requests it. And all that agency has to do is to fill out a one page application and request form. And so long as they can go and pick the equipment, be it an armed drone or an armored vehicle or a silencer for a pistol, the only thing they need to do is pick it up within 14 days and it's theirs, no training, no understanding of best practices in terms of when and where and how to use the equipment, and also no accountability. So my legislation would stop this practice of transferring directly from the DOD to a law enforcement agency bypassing the --

COSTELLO: And you also say, sir -- you also say, sir, that there's an underlying issue here. In fact, I think that you wrote an article and you said, "By passing off still good equipment to America's municipal police forces, it allows the defense industry to ask for more funding for more equipment."

You say it's like donating a relatively new sweater to Goodwill to allow the purchase of a new yet unnecessary sweater from Macy's. Explain. JOHNSON: Well, we live in a world where armed conflict abroad

involving our troops is something that is definitely foreseeable, so we may need this very equipment that we're transferring away from the DOD to local law enforcement. We may need it for our troops, and if we don't have it, we have to remanufacture it, which costs more money, and it's got a cost factor about it, this 1033 program. We need look seriously at it.

COSTELLO: And I think the Defense Department is, so we'll see what happens. Georgia State Congressman Hank Johnson, thank you so much for joining me.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Back in a minute.

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COSTELLO: In Ferguson, Missouri, there are so many varying accounts of what exactly happened when Michael Brown was shot and killed, we may never be able to say with clarity what really happened. But the bullets fired that day and the way they entered Brown's body do tell us something.

CNN's Susan Candiotti talks with some ballistics experts about the clues the bullets reveal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How many times did Officer Darren Wilson pull the trigger before unarmed teenager Michael Brown collapsed in the street? Police aren't saying.

Why does the number of bullets matter? it may be key to solving the case.

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. That's why we need to look at the physical evidence -- the gun itself, the shell casings. All of this will help us establish fact.

CANDIOTTI: The teen's family says Brown was hit at least six times, including a fatal shot to his head. But was at least one other bullet flying?

TIFFANY MITCHELL, EYEWITNESS: They shot my neighbor's building that was on the opposite side of the police car, and they then later came and removed that bullet.

CANDIOTTI: Here's the hole on the side of an apartment building facing the street where Brown was gunned down.

(on camera): Why is this significant?

KOBILINSKY: Well, we know six bullets hit Mr. Brown. We know that only three bullets were recovered from the body. So we have a question about where the other bullets are.

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Did that bullet lodged in the wall come from Wilson's gun? Ballistics expert Sal Bertocci --

SAL BERTOCCI, RETIRED NYPD BALLISTICS EXPERT: It could have missed him completely. It could have been went through flesh and got deflected into the building.

CANDIOTTI: This is a Sig Sauer semi-automatic gun similar to the one used by Officer Wilson, except it's a .9 mm compared to Wilson's .40 caliber.

.40 bullets spread and can cause more damage to its target. Michael Brady tells Anderson Cooper he first saw Brown and his friend running away from the officer after a struggle.

MICHAEL BRADY, EYEWITNESS: He's balled up, he have his stomach like under his stomach, and he was like halfway down, like he was going down. And the officer lets out about three or four shots at him.

CANDIOTTI: Forensic expert Kobilinsky says that could explain the bullet wound to the top of Brown's head.

KOBILINSKY: If you follow the trajectory of the bullet, that tells us that the head, Mr. Brown's head, was facing downward. Let me demonstrate -- like that. The explanation may be that he was falling.

CANDIOTTI: If Brown was falling, why would Officer Wilson keep shooting? His friend offers this.

"JOSIE", FRIEND OF OFFICER WILSON: He stands up and yells, "Freeze!" Michael and his friend turn around, and Michael starts taunting him, "Oh, what are you going to do about it?" You know, "You're not going to shoot me." And then he said all of a sudden he started to bum rush at him; he just started coming at him full speed and so he just started shoo shooting.

CANDIOTTI: Diverging opinions, three autopsies, bullets to explain. And a grand jury deciding whether to file charges.

Susan Candiotti, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And still to come to the NEWSROOM, Texas governor Rick Perry was all smiles when he showed up for his mugshot earlier this week. But he is expected to skip his court arraignment later today. We'll tell you why when we come back.

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COSTELLO: Checking our top stories at 55 minutes past the hour.

Just three days after posing for his mugshot, Texas governor Rick Perry will be arraigned in an Austin courtroom today. He faces charges of abuse of office and coercion of a public servant. But Perry, who says he did nothing wrong, will not appear in court. He'll be 2,000 miles away in New Hampshire as part of his possible presidential bid.

The two American flags stolen from the top of the Brooklyn Bridge will likely be returned to the New York Police Department today. Two German artists claim they stole the flags and swapped them for bleached flags last month. The artists insist the incident was nothing more than an art project.

In San Diego, American sailors who searched for the missing Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 returned to their home port. The USS Pinckney and the USS Kidd were conducting training missions in the South China Sea when that jumbo jet disappeared. Both ships were sent on search missions for the aircraft, and of course, as you know, that aircraft is still missing.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

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