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Dash Cams Being Installed for Ferguson Police; Credibility of Dorian Johnson Questioned; Worries Ferguson Children May Experience PTSD; Anderson Cooper Interview Michael Brown's Parents
Aired August 22, 2014 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: To Ferguson, Missouri, now, where there are now questions around the main witness to Michael Brown's shooting. The eyewitness here, Dorian Johnson, Is his past relevant?
Plus, a new witness coming forward, speaking to CNN. Does his account contradict the others?
And news just in on dash cams involving Ferguson police officers.
Stay right with me. You're watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: Just past the bottom of the hour on this Friday afternoon. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
Progress to report in Ferguson, and not just on the streets, but also within the police force. The first dash cam has been installed inside a Ferguson police patrol unit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHANTING)
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BALDWIN: After a night where the message and not mayhem dominated the streets of Ferguson, Missouri, authorities report a handful of arrests, just seven. However, a key eyewitness who saw Officer Darren Wilson shoot and kill Michael Brown may be facing some credibility issues. Dorian Johnson was with Brown at the time of the shooting. He said he was also in the line of the officer's fire and that Brown had his hands up when he was shot and killed.
Now CNN has obtained a 2011 police record from Jefferson City, Missouri, that shows Johnson was charged with theft and making a false report. He allegedly gave officers a fake name.
So let me bring in CNN's legal analysts, Sunny Hostin and Danny Cevallos.
Given this new information, previous run-in, arrest with the law, is it pertinent with regard to this case? SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I don't think it's pertinent.
The bottom line is he -- you know, as a prosecutor, I can't begin to tell you how many people I put on the witness stand that have criminal histories. Oftentimes, people that are out late at night, unfortunately, witnessing crimes are usually people that, you know, may not have the best criminal history. That doesn't mean they didn't see what they saw.
So I think what we are seeing now is the narrative trying to be changed. Michael Brown is now thug-a-fied. Dorian Johnson is now not credible. He too is thug-a-fied. And we see that happen in these kinds of cases.
And I hate to say that race is coming into this, but I very much believe this is not a -- has not been a transparent investigation. And race does seem to be playing a part.
BALDWIN: Interesting the way you put it, thug-a-fied. I've had a number of commentators on the show saying it's the criminalization of a victim and this is just another example.
Looking at your face, Danny Cevallos, do you disagree?
DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: There has been a lot of talk about whether Dorian Johnson's past is fair to talk about. That's an interesting philosophical question. Fortunately, for us, the Missouri rules of evidence couldn't be clearer, and the rule is this: If you have a prior conviction, that conviction can come in to impeach a witness and attack their credibility. However, a prior arrest is not necessarily a conviction. And arrests may not be used to impugn the credibility of a witness. So fortunately, we have a rule that we can fall back on. All the discussion about whether or not it's fair to hold someone's criminal past against them is an interesting discussion for the coffee house. But in the courthouse, the rules in Missouri couldn't be clearer.
BALDWIN: OK. What about the news today that the dash cams are finally being put in these patrol cars in Ferguson, Missouri, right?
(LAUGHTER)
HOSTIN: A little late.
BALDWIN: Wouldn't it have -- there are all these different accounts, and you know, being lawyers, everyone sort of tells a different story. But wouldn't it have made this -- I don't know if crystal clear would be accurate, but it would have changed the game. Pictures don't lie.
HOSTIN: It wouldn't have been crystal-clear, though, I think we can agree on that. Sometimes they don't have audit crow and sometimes the angle isn't, you know, appropriate and ideal. But I do believe, and I'm a huge supporter of dash cam recorders. I'm a huge supporter of police officers wearing body cams. I think it not only protects victims and witnesses, it also protects law enforcement. It protects officers, because it's not just their version of events. It's all on video. (CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Go ahead.
CEVALLOS: Yeah, we can talk about shouldn't we have had dash cams before. Let me let everybody in on a little fact. Police departments are not like the Apple store. They're not -- some of them are still using typewriters, using computer systems that are old. They're not the most updated systems in police departments.
BALDWIN: There is a trend now.
CEVALLOS: It's a great -- listen, I'm a criminal defense attorney. I think the defense bar would say, overall, all these video cameras and mostly the benefit of the prosecution. But that being said, it certainly does lean more towards the truth when you have a video as opposed to someone's narrative.
BALDWIN: But it's not like it would ever replace an eyewitness account or a witness account.
CEVALLOS: I think it would do better.
BALDWIN: It would complement.
HOSTIN: I think it would complement. I don't think it would do better. We have been talking this past week a lot about witness creditability and how eye-witnesses aren't credible. I really, really think that's a very dangerous place to go. Because prosecutors put everyday people on the witness stand at their peril. Oftentimes, they are terrified to do that. And they do it and do it as a community service by getting on the witness stand. And so video is fine. But eyewitness testimony is crucial in our prosecutions today.
(CROSSTALK)
CEVALLOS: Criminal defense attorneys everywhere have been burned, buried by images, videos, pictures that clients put up on their Facebook page. Overall, video imaging is better quality evidence. People lie. Things do not lie.
BALDWIN: Too bad the dash cams weren't there 12 days ago.
HOSTIN: That's right.
BALDWIN: Sunny and Danny, thank you both very much.
Next, we'll speak live with a St. Louis alderman about Monday's upcoming funeral for Michael Brown, and whether children will be going back to school in that community.
Plus, a new witness is coming forward, speaking to CNN. Speaking of all these different accounts, does his version of events, does it contradict the others?
Back after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: I really like to focus on the young people, the children in Ferguson, Missouri. Because a lot of them want to know why can't they go back to school? Why are the streets blocked off? Ferguson schools, so far, are still empty. Classes were postponed for at least a week in the wake of protests over the killing of 18-year-old Michael Brown, who graduated from a nearby school just a couple months ago. After Brown's death, Ferguson streets were filled with protesters, National Guardsmen, instead of school children toting backpacks.
A mother worries about the impact this is having on the young people there.
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UNIDENTIFIED MOTHER: They're going to have post traumatic syndrome from this. It's like they're in a war zone. I don't want to introduce my 5-year-old to anything like that. I feel that's too much for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Let me bring in St. Louis alderman, Antonio French, very outspoken in his calls for justice here in Ferguson.
Mr. French, welcome.
ANTONIO FRENCH, ST. LOUIS ALDERMAN: Hi. Thanks.
BALDWIN: You heard that mother. She said PTSD, talking about the children in that community. I mean, how worried are you that a seed of distrust has now been planted in the minds of innocent people that you can't trust police?
FRENCH: Yeah, I don't think that's an exaggeration. I think the experiences of the last 12, 13 days has taken a toll on the young people, not being in school, seeing these images on television, and in many cases, having their neighborhoods and apartments tear gassed in the evening. There's going to be a lot of work to be done over the next few weeks and months and even years to repair the damage that's been done. And we just have to heal our community. And that's going to be a long, hard process. But we have to get to that work immediately.
BALDWIN: You know, before the healing can even begin, more immediately, there -- we're talking about food. A lot of the kids in your community, they rely on school breakfasts and lunches to eat. And now with the schools closed, Mr. French, how are they getting fed?
FRENCH: Yeah, that's a big deal. A lot of kids, as you said, do go to school just for the meals sometimes. You know, the community has stepped up. There's an effort right now led by Teach for America, teachers being called Teach for Ferguson, they set up a makeshift school at the local library here. Just yesterday, they had over 160 children there. People brought meals and organizations brought food and all the kids were fed. And they were eager to go back to school and eager for education. And also, eager to talk about the events of the last 12 days to help process what's been happening.
BALDWIN: So for people who are listening, just hearing you, Teach for America, fantastic organization, they are there to help.
Looking ahead to Monday, the day of Michael Brown's funeral, do you know if schools will reopen then?
FRENCH: Yeah, we've been informed that school will open Monday. And as you mentioned, that's also the day of Michael Brown's funeral. We expect some events around town. We hope for peace. And I think we'll be prepared. A lot of the community leaders will be out here to help keep the crowds calm and directed to what this is about, which is demanding a trial and to get all the evidence out there, and let's have justice prevail.
BALDWIN: So school -- so kids going back to school Monday. Michael Brown's funeral Monday. I understand the Reverend Al Sharpton will be delivering the eulogy. Antonio, do you know who else would be there? Any other names we recognize?
FRENCH: I don't know the details of the funeral. I know that it's going to be very well attended. A lot of people are eager to go and express their sympathies to this family and show their support.
BALDWIN: All right. Antonio French, thank you so much for stopping by our CNN camera there in Ferguson, Missouri.
Just ahead, police say Michael Brown struggled with the officer before being shot. But that's not what one independent autopsy says. So what happened and what exactly do doctors look at during an autopsy to find those answers? We will take you inside.
And coming up next, Anderson Cooper's emotional interview with Michael Brown's parents. Hear what they want and whether they will ever be able to trust the police again.
Stay here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: Michael Brown's parents say they want the grand jury to take as long as jurors need to, quote, unquote, "get it right."
Lesley McSpadden and Mike Brown Sr sat down with Anderson Cooper to talk about their grief for their son and the need for justice.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MOTHER OF MICHAEL BROWN: He was a teenager. He was growing up, he was only 18. He had a chance to make a mistake and correct it. Just like the officer. He had a choice. And he chose the wrong one. And was it really necessary? No. My son is only 18. Only 18. He was special to me. He was ours. He was peaceful. He was humble.
He didn't ask for that. He didn't deserve that. And it was wrong. And I'm going to always love him, just how he was. And nothing they say can change the way I feel about him because they didn't know him like we knew him. So nothing you can say is going to ever make me understand what happened. Ever. Everybody has got a past. He was only 18.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, A.C. 360: He had his whole life ahead of him.
MCSPADDEN: That's right.
COOPER: When the authorities released that video, surveillance video from the convenience store, do you feel that was a way of trying change people's perception of your son?
MICHAEL BROWN SR, FATHER OF MICHAEL BROWN: They are trying to cover something up. I didn't go for none of that. The point of the matter is that officer killed and gunned down our son. Even if he did -- even if that was the case, he still didn't deserve to get gunned down like he got gunned down.
MCSPADDEN: It should change the way --
(CROSSTALK)
MCSPADDEN: This is the right and wrong issue. He was wrong.
BROWN: For a kid that's taught to honor, respect the police officer, of his job and duties, and to respect him, and to get done like that, it's just wrong.
COOPER: That's one of the things you tried to teach your son about how to interact with police.
BROWN: Yes. Yes.
COOPER: You had conversations about this?
BROWN: Yes.
MCSPADDEN: Ain't that terrible?
BROWN: Yes.
MCSPADDEN: Ain't that terrible?
COOPER: That you have to have that conversation?
MCSPADDEN: Exactly. That you have to have that conversation. Really? Why?
COOPER: But that's a conversation you felt you had to have with your son.
BROWN: Yeah. COOPER: What was that conversation?
BROWN: Well, for one, we -- my son has always been a big guy. He's always -- mistaken to be older than what he is. And for that matter, I felt he needed to be taught how to interact with a police officer. Because for one, they would think he's older than what he is, and he's not. You know? He was 16, he looked like he was 21. When he was 18, he looked like he was almost 24. But the case of the matter, he's 18. You know?
MCSPADDEN: And the police just profile you. You know?
BROWN: He was just --
COOPER: All along, you have been very clear that you don't want violence from these protests. And you don't want anything to distract from what happened to your son. What's your message to protesters now?
BROWN: This looting and all this other stuff is not helping. It's not helping our boy. It's doing nothing but, you know, causing more pain. Plus, it's shaming his name.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: Michael Brown's parents talking to Anderson. By the way, you can watch the whole thing. Go to CNN.com. And Michael Brown's mother saying her son didn't have a chance to grow up.
Just ahead, rapper and author, Coolio, joins me live on the situation in Ferguson and why he says he's lucky he lived past 22 years of age.
Plus, the Pentagon now warning the group that beheaded an American is quote, unquote, "beyond any threat they have ever seen." But also stunning, the suggestion that the United States may need to strike ISIS inside of Syria to defeat them. Is that imminent?
Stay with me. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: And we continue hour two. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me today.
We begin with progress in Ferguson. Not just on the city streets, but within the police force. The first dash cam has now been installed inside a Ferguson police patrol unit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHANTING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: After a night where the message and not the mayhem dominated the streets of Ferguson, protests ended early. Authorities report a handful of arrests, just seven. I should also tell you, today, the National Guard is beginning to pull out of town.
Back on Monday, Michael Brown, unarmed teenager, killed by police nearly two weeks ago, will be laid to rest, this upcoming Monday.
