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Dr. Drew
Nine-Year-Old Shooting Uzi Kills Man; Cops: Mom Faked Daughter`s "Cancer"
Aired August 27, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, this little girl is about to shoot and kill the man standing right next to her.
INSTRUCTOR: OK, turn your -- this leg forward. There you go. Just like that.
PINSKY: What is she doing with a submachine gun?
Plus, police say a mother lied about her young daughter dying of cancer and the child was never sick. Did Facebook and Twitter actually
boost her alleged bad behavior?
Let`s get started.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Good evening, everyone.
My co-host is Samantha Schacher.
And coming up, the woman called a serial stowaway appears to be at it again.
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: That`s right, Dr. Drew. She`s been nabbed at least seven times for getting past or trying to get past airport
security.
PINSKY: Can she help me? Wouldn`t that be nice just to walk on to a plane free of charge?
SCHACHER: I always get stuck at the gate as I tried to board one of the earlier boarding groups
PINSKY: You look like trouble, Sam. You look like trouble.
But something else, first, a disturbing story, a nine-year-old girl at a shooting range accidentally kills her instructor after losing control of
a gun -- you have to wonder why was in her hand in the first place -- an Uzi submachine gun. He was teaching her to use this gun.
Now, we`re not going to show you precisely what happened, but we`re going to show you what led up to the incidents and the seconds before it to
help you understand what happened here and how something like this could happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INSTRUCTOR: Right now, we have to keep that held in, otherwise the gun won`t fire. OK?
This hand, grab right there. There you go, just like that. OK, turn your -- this leg forward. There you go. Just like that.
All right. Go ahead and give me one shot.
(GUNFIRE)
INSTRUCTOR: All right.
All right. Full auto --
(GUNFIRE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, you see the kick back of that gun. It`s so sad.
That instructor there was a veteran, 39 years old, married.
Joining us to discuss what is our most tweeted about story of the night, Vanessa Barnett from hiphollywood.com, Leeann Tweeden, social
commentator, host of "The Tomboys" podcast on Blog Talk Radio, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com.
Now, Mark, you have actually fired one of these guns?
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: That`s right. It was couple of years ago in Vegas. It was part of a bachelor party thing. It wasn`t my idea. But we
selected which weapons we wanted to fire. I picked amongst other things the Uzi.
And the first thought that I had as I plugged the trigger is, what the hell am I doing? I have no business firing this weapon.
When I heard a 9-year-old was given an Uzi, I thought it was absolutely absurd. And for those yelling at the screen that it`s her
Second Amendment right, her constitutional right to fire this weapon, I tell you our forefathers are crying tonight. There is no way they thought
the Second Amendment would apply to 9-year-olds and Uzis.
PINSKY: And, Mark, let me just sort of review my history a little bit. The Second Amendment didn`t imply private gun ownership until the
1960s when there were some legal cases, is that right?
EIGLARSH: Don`t tell me. Tell them.
PINSKY: Right.
EIGLARSH: There`s people out there who think that that means a 9- year-old, a child can have a deadly weapon like this and use it under these circumstances. I don`t agree with it.
PINSKY: Vanessa, how about the parenting aspect of it? Isn`t that disturbing to us all?
VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: It`s disturbing and my first thought honestly was, what were those parents thinking? Why was this even
on their radar, like why would you want your 9-year-old holding any gun, let alone an Uzi?
But then you read the gun range`s Web site and you see that you can be as young as 8 and still go to this gun range and shoot anything you want.
It`s just because it`s your right doesn`t make it right. And some things just don`t need to happen.
And I feel so horribly bad for this man`s family, but also for this 9- year-old girl. Like I can`t understand what mental things she may have to go through, knowing that she took a life at nine years old.
PINSKY: Well, we`ll get that with the behavior bureau. But, Sam, you wanted to say something here?
SCHACHER: No. Yes. This is absolutely abhorrent. I can`t imagine why these parents would allow it, nor the gun range to allow a kid to fire
an Uzi. But I did want to respond to Vanessa, because there`s a huge difference in firing an automatic weapon and a semi automatic weapon.
I grew up shooting guns. My dad is a former marine and Vietnam vet. He would never allow me to shoot an automatic weapon, because of the very
fact -- when you shoot a semi automatic, at least it`s one shot at a time. Each time, you have to pull the trigger.
When you shoot, as Mark just said, an automatic weapon, that recoiling, if that frequents you out and it will a 9-year-old girl, and you
jerk, there goes ten rounds within two seconds and at that point, anyone is your target.
Shame on this instructor --
PINSKY: Oh, the instructor?
SCHACHER: Yes, and the parents.
PINSKY: Leeann, help me. You settle this. I know you`re sort of an enthusiast. Go ahead.
LEEANN TWEEDEN, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: My husband and I are gun owners and I grew up in a family in Virginia and it was part of our culture,
hunters, people shoot for sport, people shoot clays, they shoot skeet. And people --
PINSKY: That`s different than an automatic weapon and 9-year-old.
TWEEDEN: Right. But I`m going to tell you, Dr. Drew, I had a gun in my hand when I was six or seven years old. I learned from my father how to
shoot at the turkey shoot and I learned how to shoot a gun at a young age. He taught me the responsibility.
EIGLARSH: Not an Uzi.
SCHACHER: Not an Uzi.
TWEEDEN: No, not an Uzi, of course not. That`s the thing that I`m going to say is that yes an Uzi should not have been used for a 9-year-old
as the first gun. But I have no problems with the parents taking a 9-year- old to the gun range.
They did everything correct. Both parents were there. They had an instructor.
I think he should have been behind the line. He was standing in the wrong place. He didn`t teach the girl to take her finger off the trigger.
You can clearly see that in the video, which that upsets me.
But we have a .22 long rifle waiting for our son when he`s old enough to understand --
PINSKY: Which is how old?
TWEEDEN: I don`t know. Maybe when he`s seven or eight years old, we`ll teach him how to shoot a gun and learn how to clean it and be
responsible.
PINSKY: Mark, help me.
EIGLARSH: Listen, there is a difference between an Uzi and another weapon, and maybe that`s OK for those parents. I don`t let my kids cut an
apple alone.
But let me just also say, there`s a reason that no matter how mature a child is, the law doesn`t allow them to get behind the wheel even if
there`s somebody next to them and even if they have training, because it`s inherently dangerous. I feel the same way about the Uzi.
TWEEDEN: Parents do it.
PINSKY: Well, they may do it, but the point is, we`re debating whether this is an appropriate right. And I agree with Vanessa, although
it is your right, it`s not appropriate right.
Now I want to bring someone in here, her name is Carrie Lightfoot. She`s the founder of The Well-Armed Woman.
Carrie, now, do you think this discussion we`re having about the 9- year-old and an Uzi, where do you come down on that?
CARRIE LIGHTFOOT, FOUNDER, "THE WELL-ARMED WOMAN" (via telephone): It`s a heart wrenching story. And I do agree that it`s inappropriate for
this child, particular child, who appeared and although all the facts aren`t in yet, to have been fully trained and prepared to handle a firearm
of that caliber and that kind of recoil. So, it`s a heart-wrenching story.
We don`t know what the conversation was prior to this activity -- the conversation with the parents, the range, the instructor, which is
important to know how thoroughly the risks were explained.
You know, obviously, I`m a gun woman --
EIGLARSH: What else do we need to know?
PINSKY: Right. I mean, that`s -- yes.
EIGLARSH: What else do we need to know? Nine-year-old has an Uzi, somebody dies. That`s not reasonably foreseeable? Really, nobody could
have guessed that would have happened? Come on.
PINSKY: Vanessa?
BARNETT: And why can`t we start with a BB gun. Like, why do we need to start with an Uzi, if you really want to teach your child shooting?
PINSKY: Yes, you`re right.
LIGHTFOOT: That`s the discussion here. That`s the discussion here this evening is about the appropriateness of a child having a firearm. The
problem here isn`t the Second Amendment issue. The issue here is going through the proper safety training and the proper assessment of a child`s
capabilities.
There are numerous variables that have to be taken into consideration.
PINSKY: Sam?
SCHACHER: Why does a child need to learn how to shoot a machine gun? I understand what Leeann was saying. And I agree. I grew up the same way,
learning how to at least fire a gun responsibly, semi-automatic. But why a machine gun?
PINSKY: You guys, I think Carrie is struggling with that? Am I right, Carrie?
LIGHTFOOT: No. I mean, I question that choice as well. I mean, it doesn`t make sense.
PINSKY: Here`s my point.
EIGLARSH: I have the answer.
PINSKY: What?
EIGHLARSH: I have the answer. Drew, so when she`s 11 she can work her way up to a bazooka and something more powerful. It makes logical
sense to me.
PINSKY: This sort of seems like a progression, Mark. But here`s my thing -- all kidding aside. I mean, this is a tragedy, it is a sad case,
it didn`t have to happen.
Of this panel we have three, what two gun enthusiasts and who`s a caller who seems rational about her relationship with firearms, all --
everybody wondering why this had to be an Uzi in the hands of this kid and I don`t think it really advances anyone`s cause if you are a gun
enthusiast.
Maybe, again, this is usually where things spill over and become sort of silly. Like, you know, do we have to have these kinds of firearms in
the hands of 9-year-olds? That`s what we intended to have a right to have firearm? It includes this kind of extreme weaponry. Just saying. I don`t
think that helps anyone`s cause.
Next up, the little girl will need to cope with this. We`ll bring out the behavior bureau and talk about what that could be like.
And later, the woman who`s called the serial stowaway, police say she tried to get past airport security again. There she is, all her different
incarnations. Talk about it after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INSTRUCTOR: Right there. Just like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really don`t know what happened.
INSTRUCTOR: All right. Go ahead and give me one shot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, a 9-year-old gets an Uzi in her hand when they`re within the criteria, eight years old to shoot firearms. We
instruct kids as young as five.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, that was a piece of a video of a 9-year-old girl accidentally having killed her shooting instructor at a gun range.
Sam, I was thinking during the break, why does a nine-year-old have to have a gun at all?
SCHACHER: Yes. You know what, Dr. Drew? And it`s hard for me to answer this because I did grow up learning to shoot a gun.
PINSKY: That`s why I`m asking you. You`re the last enthusiast to have on my panel.
SCHACHER: I`m not a gun enthusiast actually. I`m not at all. I`m not a gun advocate. I don`t want a gun in my home. But I grow up that
way. My dad wanted to teach his kids how to fire a gun, and I was not 9 years old. I was a teenager. Just in case, God forbid, we were ever in
that situation.
PINSKY: How old were you?
SCHACHER: Maybe 13. And again he was with me. He`s an expert. He served two tours in Vietnam, former Marine, a hunter, and she wanted to
make sure that I knew how to handle a gun responsibly. I`m not an advocate.
PINSKY: All right.
Let`s bring in the behavior bureau, Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University, Erica America, TV host and
psychotherapist, and Spirit, host of "The Daily Help Line".
Spirit, a lot of people asking why a parent would allow a 9-year-old to shoot a weapon like that. Forget the fact that I`m wondering why do
they have the 9-year-old with a weapon at all, why the Uzi?
SPIRIT, THE DAILY HELP LINE: Well, you know what, I`m going to say this and you guys can come at me tonight, I`m ready for it.
This is ageism, plain and simple. The discrimination is ridiculous. I am on the side of the parents here. So sorry. I don`t look at it saying
why is a 9-year-old having an Uzi in their hands? These are responsible people doing a responsible thing and this is an unfortunate occupation
accident, pure and simple.
PINSKY: So it`s an OSHA issue, not a legal issue?
SPIRIT: Absolutely not. There`s not going to be any charges filed here. The parents were on hand, the instructor was on hand. Everything
was done according to the way that it should have been done. Unfortunately what happened was he wasn`t there when the coil went up, he was not there
to catch the gun. That`s an unfortunate accident.
But that`s what this is, an accident. If this were an adult or anyone else, regardless --
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: -- regardless of the age.
PINSKY: Erica, go ahead. You`re dying there.
ERICA AMERICA, Z100 RADIO: So, if you teach a child to ride a bike, what could happen? They could fall off the bike. Some parents teach their
kids how to ride a horse. What could happen? They could possibly fall off a horse, that`s even worse. So, you have less parents do that.
Potentially, teaching your kid to fire an automatic military weapon is just -- what could happen? Someone could die. The kid themselves like the
young boy who did recently, he shot himself. In this case, she shot the instructor.
A young child should not be -- I don`t think semi-automatic, automatic, kids with developing brains should not be firing weapons that
kill people. It`s just not normal.
What also bothers me is this place, I looked at the Web site, it`s called Burgers and Bullets. It`s kind of marketed as an amusement park
type place, the kind of like a family place, why do we node to play with things that are meant to kill people? I just don`t understand that. It
doesn`t add up to me.
PINSKY: Spirit, your response?
SPIRIT: Who says playing? Who says that they were playing? He is teaching his child, which is his right to do. Parents have the right to
raise their children the way that they see fit. He`s teaching his child responsible -- hello, responsible gun ownership and how to fire a weapon
accurately with a trained qualified instructor, mind you.
PINSKY: You`re there, Erica. Go ahead.
SPIRIT: This was an accident and we`re crucifying him.
AMERICA: No, no, Spirit. I totally hear where you`re coming from. Doesn`t this place seem like a day that they went -- one day during a
family trip? This wasn`t a special program where she was trained. An automatic military weapon takes a lot of training.
SPIRIT: Have you ever been to a gun range and seen it recreationally. They are made to be fun? There are picnic areas. There are places where
you can stop and relax and have a good time.
PINSKY: All right. Now, Judy is having a fit. Go ahead, Judy.
JUDY HO, PEPPERDINE UNIVERSITY: I`m sorry. I`m having an aneurysm here.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Don`t die, Judy. Don`t die.
HO: I know. Thank you, Spirit. I love you.
OK. We were raised also in a family of guns. I, like Sam, was taught to shoot guns when I was about 13 or 14.
So, I don`t have an agenda here. I think there have reasons why people want to teach this skill.
Here`s a problem with the 9-year-old. There are issues with cognitive development and physical development here. At a 9-year-old`s developmental
level, cognitively, they`re still in the concrete operation stage, Dr. Drew.
They don`t understand abstract concepts. They don`t understand how to infer things. They don`t really know how to problem solve.
PINSKY: How to project consequences.
HO: Yes, absolutely. They have no --
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: Give me a break. You guys acted like she turned the gun and was shooting at him.
HO: Let me finish. The cognitive development is the cognitive development that is backed up by research. That is the way our human brain
develops.
(CROSSTALK)
SPIRIT: I`m not disputing that. But the argument you`re making, come on, Judy. Are you making that argument?
HO: Not finished yet. Physically also, she is too small to handle a gun properly. If she was growing taller, if she was a little weightier,
she could have handled that gun in a different way where the accident would not have happened.
PINSKY: Now you`re being discriminatory to smaller people, Judy. How dare you? Ageism and sizism.
SCHACHER: First of all, I love sassy Judy right now. I love that you did this. But I want to switch the focus to this little girl.
And if I could ask you, Judy, she witnessed -- oh my God, she had to witness herself shooting this instructor. Now, she has to carry that
burden even though it is not her fault.
How is she going to get through this and what impact will it have on her?
HO: Such a great question, Sam. And this is part of the problem. She`s 9 years old. So, she doesn`t fully understand, first of all, that
it`s an accident. That she shouldn`t be blamed. What do children do when things go wrong?
PINSKY: They think it`s their fault.
HO: That`s absolutely. They always blame themselves. And all of this media attention is going the backfire in terms of helping her to get
through it, right? Because she`s still in the middle of the trauma.
PINSKY: And can you imagine? She goes back to school, everyone saw it on television.
Erica, last thoughts?
AMERICA: Yes. No. This could be a future post-traumatic stress type situation. So, what she really needs to do is get in some good therapy and
really work it out as it unfolds.
PINSKY: Yes, we all agree on that one. We agree on that front, which is that when somebody had an acute event that`s traumatic, the sooner they
get the treatment, the more thoroughly they assist them more, they stay with the least consequence are brought to bear from a psychiatric,
psychological perspective. Not to say from a spiritual slash -- I guess perspective, this family is going to have some thinking to do for a little
while, I suspect.
Next up, a mother is accuse of faking -- again I put mother in quotes here. There she is -- faking that child in her arms there, faking that
that child has cancer and raising money out of sympathy.
And later, this woman has tried to sneak past airport security at least seven times. We`ll talk about what may be behind that after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: An Iowa mom reportedly shares Facebook photos of her cancer- stricken daughter and unites a community in raising funds for the terminally ill five-year-old. But now, police say it was all a scheme for
greed. The little girl never had cancer. She wasn`t even sick. This mother remains behind bars on charges of child endangerment and a community
is wondering how this could happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think the hearts of the people in this community are going to be hardened by it. I think everybody is hurt right
now, but everybody is going to heal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Vanessa, Leann and Mark.
The mom, the alleged scheme this mom began to unravel when she registered her daughter for kindergarten, school officials went to the
police when medical records she submitted at school didn`t pan out or weren`t panning out.
Sam, this woman allegedly duped a ton of people.
SCHACHER: Oh, yes, thousands of people. So, she set up, first of all, a Facebook page. It`s garnered over 5,000 likes. She set up a Go
Fund Me page to raise funds for her child`s medical treatment and I say that in quotes.
She also got the fire department involved and they held charity events. They would go door to door trying to raise funds for her daughter.
They nicknamed her Super Riley. They also made her an honorary fireman.
And I do want to read something, a post from the Atlantic Fire Department, because after the chief found out about the alleged scheme he
posted this. Quote, it reads, "The Atlantic Fire Department is saddened to hear of the events surrounding the family of Super Riley. She needs our
support more than ever and will remain an honorary member and wish her nothing but the best."
PINSKY: Leeann?
TWEEDEN: You know, Dr. Drew, there`s a special place in hell for a woman like this, or for people that do things like that. And you know why?
Because to me, this is a very close issue. I don`t want to cry right now. My best friend Kelly, just before Cain was born, my son, about a year ago,
her not quite two-year-old daughter was diagnosed with childhood leukemia. OK?
She`s been through cancer treatment, chemo treatment, she`s lost her hair, she`s gained weight from steroids and all this stuff. And we`re
talking about a little girl who`s really sick.
And then I look at this disgusting mom who should have her mom card revoked and she`s doing this.
And the kicker to this, Dr. Drew, my best friend Kelly a few months ago just found out she had stage three breast cancer.
PINSKY: Oh my God!
TWEEDEN: So, my best friend and her two-year-old daughter are battling cancer together, and they both lost their hair, and they`re both
doing this.
And then I see a woman like this. And you know, the best part about this, my girlfriend Kelly, I love you so much, she started a nonprofit to
help other families that need help going through their cancer treatments with their family. And it`s called Loveislouderthancancer.org. That`s
where you should go.
She`s sick and her daughter is sick and she wants to help other people. This woman should go to jail.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: And, Mark, I think cancer is one of these things, as you see with Leeann`s reaction, is one of these conditions that you can`t mess
with. You know what I mean? People suffer with this thing. And if you`re using it --
TWEEDEN: People die from it, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Listen, I have prostate cancer. I know how terrible a cancer. I see my patient get cancer.
It`s nothing to fool with. It`s nothing to play with. I wonder -- Mark, what are your thoughts?
EIGLARSH: Well, first of all, I am a defense lawyer. I defend people. I`m also a father with a very strong moral compass and because of
that, I say if I`m the judge in this case, I don`t accept any plea bargain unless it includes jail time. Don`t talk to me about house arrest, don`t
talk to me about probation.
What she did was so abhorrent. I think of the future people who are going to go out there and try to collect money for a legitimate cause and
she will cause people to think twice. I have no, no compassion for what she said.
PINSKY: We have some photos of what appears to be the mom`s Facebook page. She reportedly shaved this girl`s head, inserted a nasal gastric
tube into the daughter`s nose, fitted up to nose, in down the throat and into the stomach. That`s torturing the child.
She had no medical training. She was -- some allegations were that she was giving the child cannabis oil as some sort of cancer treatment.
She told a local TV station earlier this year the cancer is spreading too fast.
This is a quote, "Cancer is spreading too fast. It`s spread to her liver. The last MRI showed it to spread to her limp nodes and they stopped
chemotherapy. That`s why I had to give a child cannabis oil."
Thank God she wasn`t giving it regularly. It could affect the child`s development, occasionally like the way she gave it. It`s going to be a
nonissue.
Vanessa, I haven`t heard from you yet?
BARNETT: You know, like so many other people on the panel, yes, I am a mother as well. This is beyond disgusting. You can`t wrap your mind
around someone who could do something like this.
But, Dr. Drew, so in times on this show we`ve talked about mental health issues and just recently, we talked about the mother who`s putting
salt in her son`s feeding tube. Munchausen`s by proxy.
If there is a mental issue here with this woman, one, will we find this out? And, two, does she at some point deserve any sympathy? I`m not
say I`m taking her side.
PINSKY: Well, that`s the big question here. The question is this, money or Munchausen`s?
SCHACHER: Money.
PINSKY: Money or mental illness? I think this looks sinister, and money (INAUDIBLE), on a certain level.
TWEEDEN: She has a husband and five children. How does the husband not know about this? She`s been doing it for over a year.
PINSKY: Are they that desperate for money? Mark, Sam, are they that desperate for money? Sam, go ahead.
SCHACHER: Well, apparently, to the father it has been cleared. The police officers did investigate him. So, maybe she duped the father to
too, just trying to get the father the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he, actually, thought his child had cancer.
PINSKY: Mark.
VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: He did not go to any doctor appointments.
SCHACHER: I know. I know.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Let us keep the focus on her.
SCHACHER: Yes.
EIGLARSH: We have got to keep the focus on her because we know what she did. And, I will tell you this, the prisons are packed with people who
suffer from mental illness. There has to be. And, I am all about compassion and love. I get it.
But, there has to be a punitive effect to send a message to future mothers like her before they think about doing it that there is a serious
message that you are going to do, jail time. You will be away from your child if you pull these shenanigans.
PINSKY: Well, my thing is always even if you have an illness. I mean unless, she is totally psychotic and disconnected from reality in some way,
which is no evidence of that.
EIGLARSH: No. She is not.
PINSKY: Right. That is right. Then, too late. She should have gotten help when she was getting crazy impulses and trying to think of
doing things that was contemplating crazy things that could hurt other people and her child. That is the problem. Vanessa, last thoughts.
BARNETT: Is there any way under the law that she could face some sort of restitution and pay back these thousands of people that reached into
their pockets and supported her?
TWEEDEN: Thank you.
PINSKY: Mark, what do you say? Of course. The answer is of course.
EIGLARSH: Yes, absolutely. What she did was -- yes.
PINSKY: I am going to bring the Behavior Bureau in -- Behavior Bureau will talk more about the role of social media in this whole thing because
people got going on social media and that encouraged her further. And, later on, why does this woman continue to sneak pass airport security when
she keeps getting caught? There she is. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I am back with Sam and our Behavior Bureau, Judy, Erica and Spirit. Let us see if we can make sense of this. For nearly one year,
police say, Leatha Slauson claimed her daughter had terminal cancer. But, the 5-year-old was not even sick. It was apparently, we think, a money
making scheme. And, so for the Behavior Bureau, my real question is this that or is it something like Munchausen or other mental illness? Money or
mental illness. Spirit, you are first?
SPIRIT CLANTON, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: You know what? I am going to say probably a combination of both.
PINSKY: Could be.
CLANTON: She probably, once the money started to roll in, it became an addiction to it. And, I do not want to let dad off too easy here,
either.
PINSKY: I am with you.
CLANTON: We are going to have to come back around to that.
PINSKY: I am with you.
CLANTON: I will not let everybody else roll on this, but him getting sole custody where was he a year ago when the child`s hair is getting
shaved off, when she is in the papers and everywhere else for being an honorary fire fighter, when mom is at school checking her in talking about
medical disability.
They have to have mutual friends. You are talking social media on Facebook? Nobody says, "Hey, sorry to hear about your daughter." Dad does
not know but now he has sole custody? I am just saying here, something is amiss.
PINSKY: I mean it is hard enough, Judy, to imagine a mom doing this. It gets harder to understand how somebody so close can be so thoroughly
sucked into this as the father.
JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. And, of course right now most of the attention is on the mom because she is the one who really
set everything up and carried it through. And, I do not think it is Munchausen`s, Dr. Drew. You know, when you covered the salt mom`s story --
PINSKY: And, by the way, Munchausen by proxy. It would not be a Munchausen --
HO: Right.
PINSKY: Let us explain to people what that is. Munchausen or Burchett Syndrome is where people are preoccupied with the need for
surgeries or they have medical conditions, they go back and they get very complicated treatments that end up hurting them, typically. When it is by
proxy, it means all that gets expressed through the child.
HO: Right.
PINSKY: The child becomes the object f all of this nonsense. Judy, go ahead.
HO: That is right. And, the caregiver is making that happen. And, when you covered the salt mom story, I think that was a very typical
Munchausen by proxy, because clearly, her motivation was this very abnormal attention-seeking behavior. She really needed that for herself to survive,
for this salt mom to survive.
Now, when we are looking at this mom, it seems like money is the primary motivator here. And, in that case, she is more considered possibly
what we have been talking about as a sociopath and that has a social personality disorder.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: Somebody who would even use her own child to meet any goal, whatever that is.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: Even if it is harming their flesh and blood.
PINSKY: And, Erica, think about it. It is shaving the child`s head. It is putting a nasogastric tube, forcing a plastic tube up the nose, down
the throat into the stomach.
ERICA AMERICA, T.V. HOST AND PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. That is why, I think there is a chance that it could be Munchausen`s by proxy. And, I
think we really need to -- before we vilify this woman and say that she is the most horrible thing on this world, we have to see if that is what it is
because -- that definitely could be the possibility. The other thing I wanted to say is that, yes, I also find it very odd that the father would
have no idea that his daughter, you know, did not have cancer when apparently she did.
PINSKY: Erica. Have you seen that kind of collusion with a caretaker, by a caretaker I mean a spouse? I have seen some very weird
colluding kinds of behaviors where, you know, the person that is the primary -- let us call her what she is, a perpetrator cannot really pull
their stuff off if they do not have a supportive partner that they sucked into it in some way.
AMERICA: Right. But, you think she would come to one doctor`s appointment and just to see that there really was no doctor. There really
was nothing. So, I do not want to throw him under the bus. He could be --
PINSKY: Spirit does. Spirit wants him under the bus.
AMERICA: This is one thing that I wanted to say, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes.
AMERICA: Is what I wanted to say is the main thing with the Munchausen is, I want to see if she was getting sort of off on the
attention or if it was just for the money. That is the big thing. I want to know.
SCHACHER: What is the primary motivation.
PINSKY: What is the primary? Exactly. And, Spirit, said, it is probably both. But, Sam, I am wondering if social media was a big part of
the problem here. Let us say this is some sort of mental illness. It is even sociopathy, which is a condition where people sort of use other people
for their own purposes and really do not care what they do to them. They just need them for themselves. But, is social media is such a strange
motivator. Do you think social media played an important role here?
SCHACHER: Well, yes. It is going to instantly fuel whatever she was going after. You know, whether she is going around the neighborhood
passing out flyers, knocking on doors, she can do that a million times more faster by just posting something on Facebook or Twitter.
But, I wanted to ask Judy or anybody here on our panel, this poor little girl and I am ready to vilify this mother, because this little girl
was tortured. This little girl was betrayed. She was duped by her own mom, who should be protecting her.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: So, now, how is that going to affect her developmental wise when she grows up?
PINSKY: You are right, Sam. Let us start with Spirit. We will go across the bottom line. Sprit, go ahead.
CLANTON: Well you know, the bottom line is it depends on what kind of care she gets at this point. She probably has no idea what is even going
on. We do not know what her mother told her about what was happening.
PINSKY: Yes.
CLANTON: We do not know if she even walks around truly believing that she has cancer. So, bottom line here, it depends on what kind of care
she gets and the support system that is going to be surrounding that as the years come.
PINSKY: Agreed. Erica?
AMERICA: Yes. From this point on, that is all that matters. That is all that matters. That is why, we are saying, it is important to really
kind of investigate the father to make sure that he is the right one for her to be with. It is not to be the most stable person.
PINSKY: And, Judy, I am sure you will agree with what Spirit and Erica, both said. But, also, the other siblings need to be assessed too.
Are there other stuff going on covertly in the rest -- remainder of the family?
HO: That is right. There is no way that this is all occurring in isolation, Dr. Drew. This is a whole family dynamic problem. And, this is
an attachment problem. You and I talk about this a lot on the show, that attachment is so broken in a young child like this. I do not know who she
is supposed to attach to now? Is it the father like? Erica said. Or is it somebody else completely. Whoever this adult is, she needs one constant
adult in her life. So, she can feel like she can trust people, again.
PINSKY: Again, that attachment, just as sort of -- how we determine are relationship with other brains, other people, you know? How we fit
with other people. Imagine what this girl is going to be expecting from other humans, manipulation, exploitations. That is her sense of love now.
And, the attachment ultimately is what allows regions in here to develop that give us capacity for empathy for others that we are
speculating that the mom may not have had. So, she has never been the object of empathy by a love object. And, we are worried about this dad
that could be involved with a woman like that, a lot more to be worked out with that family. Thank you, panel.
Next up, this woman is called the serial stow away, or in my case, she is just my tour guide. We will talk about why she is so desperate to get
pass airport security. What may be behind all of that. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARILYN HARTMAN, CONVICTED OF AIRPORT STOWAWAY: It was stupid and it is something I do not want to repeat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: She is referred to as the serial stowaway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: A 62-year-old Marilyn Hartman will not say how she got pass security screeners and gate agents.
HARTMAN: Obviously, they will be on the watch for me. So, I would not dare attempt this again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Back with Sam, Vanessa, Leeanne and Mark. You just heard from the woman nicknamed the serial stowaway. She has had seven
run-ins with security at four different airports including an arrest last month in Los Angeles.
She has successfully sneaked on to a flight from San Jose to Los Angeles. This week nabbed again in Phoenix. How did she get to phoenix?
That is my question. She was kicked out of that airport for trying to access what so-called a secure area. But, then she bounced back, again.
Sam, can you help me with this one?
SCHACHER: Well, first of all, she was arrested at L.A.X. OK? She was sentenced --
PINSKY: Did they send her to Phoenix?
SCHACHER: No, prior to this. Prior to this. She was sentenced to 177 days in jail, but she only served three of those days due to
overcrowding. But, Dr. Drew, I mean if you heard this woman`s statement. She is suffering from mental illness and she said the only time that she
feels safe is at an airport. It breaks my heart. Where are her friends? Where is her family? She is out there all by herself. It makes me sad.
EIGLARSH: Well --
PINSKY: Mark, I will let you talk here in a second, but my question is I agree, there is some component of that here, and we will get in that
to what that might be. But, my question to Mark is, she seems to have specific intent every time she shows up in these places where she feels
safe, which is to get around security.
EIGLARSH: Right. And, Samantha mentions the only place she feels safe is at the airport. That makes one of us. This habitual offender,
this disturbed woman can liberally just wander on to airplanes and I cannot bring on to an airplane my expensive hair product because it is an inch and
a half over regulation. Does anyone see the outrage here?
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Yes. Wait. Hold on, let me wipe the tear away from my eye, Mark.
SCHACHER: You have got good hair, Mark. It is all worth it.
PINSKY: Do we have any of the Tweets, the things our viewers were sending us? I want to give that to Leeann and Vanessa. They are really
kind of interesting. Some people think she was homeless and trying to get arrested in order to have shelter. There it is. "I think she is homeless
and trying to get arrested or find shelter." Leeann, what do you say to that?
TWEEDEN: You know, I think that is actually probably a good point. That may be true. I did read in some of the stuff that we were researching
before the show that she has lived in some sketchy hotels and things like that. So, she is not completely homeless but that she has a blog. I tried
to find it. I could not see it. But, they said she writes a blog.
This woman is smart enough. She writes a blog. She has scouted out airport. She has been able to get pass the TSA, which I am standing there
taking off my belt and my shoes. I cannot have my shampoo that is bigger than 3.5 ounces or whatever.
PINSKY: I am crying for you too, Leeann.
(LAUGHING)
TWEEDEN: But, not only could she get through the TSA. She got through a gate agent to go on to a plane. She did not get discovered until
she got to L.A., and they did a head count, because you know, southwest is like one of those shuttles when you go around it is like staying in your
seats and will recount if people get off here.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: And, then they realized they were off by one and that is how they discovered her. So, I am not surprised -- I would not be
surprised if she snuck on another plane and got to Arizona like that.
SCHACHER: I think the CIA should hire her.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: Well, Vanessa -- funny you say that, Sam. I want to read for Vanessa some jobs that were suggested by some of our online comments.
SCHACHER: OK.
PINSKY: Maureen says, "She should be hired by the FAA to see what which security personnel needs to do a better job, like hiring a mystery
shopper." Vanessa, how about that?
(LAUGHING)
BARNETT: First of all, this lady is my new inspiration for life. I absolutely love her. She is brilliant. She gives the best interviews.
She is so funny in her interviews. She just laughs. Like people asked her, "How are you doing?" She just chuckles. It is delightful almost.
PINSKY: It is delightful.
BARNETT: And, then she has more mug shots than Lindsay Lohan. More mug shots than Lindsay Lohan. She is literally -- she is like an enigma.
But, people are so mad at her because she is getting on these flights. They want to arrest her. We need to arrest these people that are not doing
their job, like you are really putting us in danger. Like if there are terrorists taking notes, we are in trouble.
SCHACHER: Exactly, yes.
BARNETT: And, where is Evy Poumpouras when you need her. We need a CIA analyst to bring her on board and tell us your secrets, little lady.
TWEEDEN: You know, Dr. Drew? I think why people kind of let her get away with things is because she is an older lady.
PINSKY: Yes.
TWEEDEN: So, I think people give her the benefit of the doubt like, "She is a grandma. I am sure she has a ticket."
PINSKY: Right. Again, terrorists catch Leeann`s point there?
SCHACHER: Yes. Dress up as a grandma.
PINSKY: All right. Let me see what is up next here. We have uncovered some information about her history. We will bring in the
Behavior Bureau to discuss that. I have got some ideas of what might really be going on here. It is entertaining, but this woman has really got
some serious stuff I am afraid. Be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARTMAN: It was clearly wrong on my part and I certainly do not want to do it again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (1): She was there without a ticket just a few days ago and got kicked out. She still came back yesterday.
HARTMAN: I certainly do not want to do any jail time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER (2): She has been arrested four times at SFO for trying to board a flight to Hawaii without a valid boarding pass
and for violating a stay away order.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, and the Behavior Bureau, Judy, Erica and Spirit. We are talking about the so-called serial stowaway. Airport
security has caught her seven times trying to fly without a ticket. Last month she succeeded flying from San Jose to Los Angeles. This week caught
in phoenix.
We have confirmed that a San Francisco court provided her with mental health services, housing and counselling. Spirit, so she had this -- I am
going to have Sam tell us more about this first. But she refused that, left after two weeks saying it was too confining. Right, Sam?
SCHACHER: Yes.
CLANTON: Come on. I want to hear it.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: That is exactly right, Dr. Drew. And, then she was also, as I stated earlier, sentenced to jail, but they let her out after a few
days because of overcrowding.
PINSKY: But, this business of rejecting a structured environment, a living environment -- it does not sound like a super intense mental health
treatment center. It sounds like a sort of residential treatment center rejecting that. Spirit, it sounds like schizophrenia to me.
CLANTON: Yes, but you know -- that is what I was thinking. At minimum, there is some axis, two steps here, quite obviously there is some
axis, one step going on two. But, what we have got to stop doing in this country. And, we at some point, we have to have dialogue about this. We
have got to stop locking our mental health patients in prison, in jail. This is not the place for our individuals. And, we have to address this in
this nation at some point in the very near future.
PINSKY: Well, I wholeheartedly agree with Spirit. And, in this case she was something she did not go to jail. They sent her to a residential
sort of environment. Judy, in addition to some sort of thought disturbance, I could see where this could be a neurological or even
neurological disorder also.
HO: I agree with you, Dr. Drew. And, did you notice the inappropriate affect during her interview --
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. Smiling.
HO: She was smiling.
PINSKY: That is what Sam likes. That is best about her.
SCHACHER: She seems sweet and nice. So, that is a symptom of something bigger?
PINSKY: Yes.
HO: Absolutely. That is exactly what we are talking about, that there might be some neurodegenerative disorders, or schizophrenia,
especially the paranoid stuff-type that we have discussed, because you can actually kind of hold it together in an interview and actually kind of talk
in sequence; but, overall there is a scheme that is building underneath. And, you have all of these thoughts and delusions that really fit into one
specific goal.
And, for her, apparently, it is boarding these planes over and other again and somehow being narcissistic that she is actually trying to help
understand the system better and that she is actually trying to help us be safe.
PINSKY: Right.
HO: So, why have I been buying plane tickets this whole time, Dr. Drew? I should do this.
PINSKY: I know. I am with here. I am going to have my teeth knocked out and grow my hair out, the shock of gray hair.
CLANTON: Stop. Stop.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: OK. Erica, what do you think?
AMERICA: Yes. Well, clearly to me she has been arrested eight times at airports this year alone. This clearly to me is obsessive-compulsive
behavior. Without treatment and without medication, she cannot control her urge to return to an airport, try to board. And, not only do I think she
is a danger to herself, but she is danger to other people, because she will do whatever it takes to get that compulsion met.
So, what if she sneaks on a plane like the young boy did on the Hawaiian Airlines flight, where he is on the stowaway area, and she tinkers
with something and then the whole plane goes down. This is a dangerous situation and the fact that she is getting past security, someone else
brought that up before, is really insane. I think she needs mandated mental health treatment.
PINSKY: Well, she had that. She escaped from that because she did not like the confinement.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: It really feels like --
AMERICA: Was it mandated?
PINSKY: Well, I think it was a part as opposed to jail. It sounds like she is somebody who had some mental health issue and now has some
neurological thing on top of that. And, as people sort of get this, whether it is an Alzheimer`s, or some other dementing-type --
neurogenerative we call that.
The symptoms of the psychiatric problems sometimes can really become worse and more bizarre, more fixed, more rigid, and you know, I think we
are seeing something like that here. Thankfully, she is probably. We all agree harmless. I would say harmless. Provided she does not do something
weird on a plane like Erica was just saying. DVR us then you can watch us anytime. "Forensic Files" is up next and begins right now.
END
