Return to Transcripts main page

Jane Velez-Mitchell

Girl, 9, Accidentally Kills Shooting Instructor; Lawsuit Claims Cops Used "Excessive Force"; Love and Hip Hop and Lawsuit

Aired August 27, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that verdict is never going to make them whole. Never will. But I have some confidence, based upon what happened, that our

system does work. And it works fairly.

JOEY JACKSON, HOST: Tonight, tragedy and horror at the shooting range near Las Vegas. A 9-year-old girl firing an Uzi loses control of the weapon and

accidentally fires a round at her instructor, killing him. It was all caught on tape. So this deadly accident begs this question: Should a child

ever be allowed to shoot such a powerful weapon at all?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 9-year-old girl ended up accidentally killing her gun instructor. He was accidentally shot by that girl holding an automatic

Uzi.

CHARLIE VACCA, GUN INSTRUCTOR: All right. Go ahead. Give me one shot.

SAM SCARMARDO, OWNER, BULLETS AND BURGERS: Really don`t know what happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 9-year-old`s Uzi kicks back, and a bullet if fired in Vacca.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To put an Uzi into the hands of a 9-year-old I think is extremely reckless.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All the residents have been talking about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 9-year-old with an Uzi, question mark?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JACKSON: Now, here`s the 9-year-old girl, who police are not identifying, with the 39-year-old instructor Charles Vacca. Police released these

videos just before the deadly shot rang out. The clip ends before Vacca is hit. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VACCA: Turn your -- this leg forward, just like that. Go ahead and give me one shot. All right!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: The girl fired several rounds in rapid succession before the recoil lifted the gun over her head, and she lost control. Vacca was

struck in the head and died only hours later. Police are not filing any charges.

Now, this is not a story about gun control. Instead, it`s a cautionary tell about common sense. What say you? We want to hear from you. That 9-

year-old would be better off at the playground, not shooting a fully semiautomatic submachine gun. I want to hear from you now. Call me at 1-

877-JVM-SAYS; that`s 1-877-586-7297.

And please join the conversation by going to our Facebook page. You can also talk to us on Twitter.

I want to go straight out to the Lion`s Den. Of course, our hearts certainly go out to the Charles Vacca`s family, as well as the girl and her

family. But you know what? What a serious tragedy. We have a gun expert standing at the ready. Let`s talk to the gun expert, Samuel Hayes.

Talk to us about this weapon, how the weapon is structured, and is it safe for a 9-year-old to be in possession of it?

SAMUEL HAYES, GUN EXPERT: Absolutely not. I mean, it`s never safe for a 9-year-old to be in possession of a fully automatic weapon. I know some

adults that I wouldn`t put a fully automatic weapon in their hands without some kind of specific training.

And let`s be clear, this is not an accident. Although it may have been an accident that she shot him, this is a result of negligence. And as a

result of that negligence, two families were -- are devastated now.

It was negligent on the part of the -- of the gun range to have a policy that would allow an 8-year-old [SIC] child to be in possession of a fully

automatic weapon. And unfortunately, I hate to speak ill of the dead, but it was negligent on his part as an instructor to not have full control of

that weapon, even while she was shooting it.

JACKSON: Well, we`re -- we`re going to certainly get into that without question. We have C.W. Jensen. You`re there. You`re a retired officer.

Talk to us about that. Now, it seems to me that our firearm expert raises a very good point. Do you disagree?

C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED POLICE OFFICER: No. I agree with him 100 percent. You know, I don`t have a problem with a kid learning firearms. But -- and

I don`t know if he has a gun there. But this is a Glock 26. It`s a semiautomatic pistol. Right?

So semiautomatic and automatic, I think it`s important for your viewers to understand. So this is a semiautomatic. Let`s say I load it, I lock it.

Now it`s loaded. I can fire once, and it takes the hammer down. And then I can fire very, very fast. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.

The difference between this and an automatic is -- and I think this is what happened to the little girl.

JACKSON: OK.

JENSEN: You pull this, you have to pull each time. An automatic, it just goes "brrrrr," and it`s gone.

JACKSON: But it would seem -- it would seem to me that certainly the firearm instructor would be on notice of that. But let`s be clear: the

victim appeared to be doing everything by the book. He was standing right over the girl with his hands right on her back and arm. But still, all

precautions could not prevent this horrible tragedy. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCARMARDO: Really don`t know what happened. I mean, our guys are trained to basically hover over people when they`re shooting. And, you know, if

they`re shooting right-handed, we have our right hand behind them ready to push the weapon out of the way. And if they`re left-handed, the same

thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now, just to be clear, I`m certainly no firearms or weapons expert. But just look at how petite this girl is. It would seem that the

force of the recoil would be a major consideration in deciding whether a child should even be allowed to possess such a firearm or be even at a

range. It`s a powerful weapon, is it not, Samuel Hayes?

HAYES: Absolutely it`s a powerful weapon. And that`s where I disagree that the -- having -- the instructor having his hands on the actual person.

He should have had one hand on her back and another hand on the actual gun to be able to control the recoil. In the event that he felt the gun moving

in a direction that was unsafe, then his hand would have been right there on the firearm to be able to take the gun from her or at least control the

direction of fire, and it wouldn`t have been able to come back towards him.

I mean, this is a 9-year-old girl. Looking at the physicality of a 9-year- old girl who is -- I mean, she basically has a series of mechanical parts in her hand that, when you press the trigger, you`re causing multiple

explosions at the end of her hand. That`s going to be extremely jarring to anybody if they`re a first-time shooter. There`s no way in the world I

would ever put a...

JACKSON: Samuel, let me say this...

EVANGELINE GOMEZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The issue here -- the issue here, Joey, is that parents have a constitutional right to impart whatever

type of values they want to on their child. This is perfectly legal.

HAYES: We`re not talking about values. We`re talking about...

JACKSON: Samuel, you`ll get your opportunity. Go ahead, Evangeline.

GOMEZ: Because parents have a constitutional right and if they want to teach a child and they want their child to go out to a gun range, they have

that prerogative.

Nothing that occurred here was illegal. You had parental consent. You had an instructor who was there. This was an unfortunate accident. But guess

what? Our world is not perfect, and things like this happen. And nobody would be giving this case scrutiny if this accident would not have

occurred.

JACKSON: Samuel, hold on one second. Evangeline, I want to take this to you and the rest of the panel, because I want to be clear about this. You

talk about a 9-year-old. Listen to this.

The firing range, which is called Bullets and Burgers, says on its Website that any child between the ages of 8 and 17 can shoot a weapon, even if

accompanied, right, by a parent or guardian.

GOMEZ: That`s right.

JACKSON: They have to be accompanied; we know that. But according to the person who runs that place, 8-year-olds even are not their youngest

customers. Take a look at this, and you guys can weigh in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCARMARDO: Well, a 9-year-old gets an Uzi in her hand when -- when they`re within the criteria, it`s 8 years old to shoot firearms. We instruct kids

as young as 5 in .22 rifles, and they don`t get to handle high firearms. But they`re under the supervision of their parents and of our professional

range masters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now, I want to get Heather Hanson in on the conversation and Robi Ludwig. But before I do, listen to this. Now, you heard him correctly,

right? As young as 5 years old fire guns. Five years old, Evangeline.

And now it`s not against the law. But is it safe or is it wise? And Evangeline, I hear you and I understand about people having the right to do

what they want and raise their kids. But is this the proper forum to do that?

GOMEZ: I definitely think it is.

HAYES: I mean, listen to what he said. He said...

GOMEZ: If a parent agrees to it, that`s their decision. There are some people who think that peewee football isn`t safe for kids; yet parents sign

their children up for it, knowing that there`s a risk they can -- they can have a concussion, that they can suffer some other type of injury. And so

while our value system may be different than somebody else, maybe I wouldn`t do this for my child. But this is the United States of America.

And we have freedoms.

JACKSON: Robi Ludwig.

ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: There happen to be...

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: Hold on one second. I`ve got my big gavel. Robi Ludwig, let me ask you, all right? Let me ask you, Robi. You`re the -- you`re the person

regarding the mind...

LUDWIG: Right.

JACKSON: ... and, you know, the things that parents could do, shouldn`t do, would do, what`s best for the child. Take us through that.

LUDWIG: Right.

JACKSON: Because it seems to me, 9 year old, Robi, thought to be young, but when I look at the clip and he says 5 years old, I`m a little taken off

guard.

LUDWIG: Right. And listen, parents can make that decision, and parents come from different cultures where, you know, shooting a gun is very

natural. That`s not what I take issue with.

Listen, I couldn`t get my kids into certain gyms, because there were policies that they were below 18. It wasn`t considered safe. So I take

issue with a policy that doesn`t protect both the teachers and the people who enter into this kind of gun range.

Let`s have some common sense in the policies where we`re protecting kids who might be vulnerable to this kind of accident happening. Because let`s

face it, when accidents happen with loaded guns, it can be deadly. And why would you want to lay that psychological responsibility on a child like

this?

JACKSON: Amen.

LUDWIG: Now this 9-year-old child has to live with the fact that they ended their instructor`s life, even though it was an accident. That`s very

heavy to live with.

JACKSON: It is. Now Heather...

GOMEZ: ... to be right.

JACKSON: Heather, pivoting to you, I want you to listen to this. All right? Now the gun that this 9-year-old was shooting, it`s a fully

automatic machine gun. It`s created by the Israeli army. Now, the Uzi is capable, Heather, of firing ten bullets per second, as close -- listen, as

close as 900 miles an hour.

Now, take a look at this YouTube video about the Uzi`s safety, and we`ll talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Insert into the magazine well here. I like to give a nice hard slap to make sure that magazine is seated properly.

This gun has two safeties. The first safety is your traditional safety switch. Safety bar right here. The other safety on this gun is a lever

right here that this gun will not fire unless your hand is gripping it properly and depressing the lever. That prevents the gun from being fired

if dropped or any accidental fires. So you take your...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now, Heather, this machine gun was designed to be shot by a soldier at war.

Now Evangeline, I get and understand about constitutional rights and liberties and shooting. But this isn`t peewee football, Heather Hanson.

HEATHER HANSEN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But the reality is, Joey, in that state of Arizona, it is legal, and it is up to the place where they`re

doing the shooting to decide what age the child can do it.

On top of that, the important thing to note is this particular place has been open for 12 years with no citations. And as far as we know, no

similar circumstances. So to say that this is something that should not be allowed, because of one tragic, horrible event, is not fair.

There are many people who want to teach their children how to deal with firearms. They have the right to do so. And isn`t it better that they do

so in a place that deals with these types of things than in their own backyard?

HAYES: So we`re going to forego...

JACKSON: Hold on. Samuel Hayes, is it, one, enough? And the reality is, I get that it`s legal; I get it`s constitutional. I get we live in a

marvelous and a beautiful society. But we`re talking about a 9-year-old girl who`s handling a weapon that`s designed for war and was created by the

Israeli army. What say you, Samuel Hayes?

HAYES: I mean, basically it sounds like everybody`s saying that we should forego common sense in the interest of constitutional rights. Just because

something -- just because something is constitutionally right to do, doesn`t mean that we should do it.

I have kids that come to my classes all the time with their parents. But they have to be 12 and up and only if the parent agrees that the kid is

mature enough to be able to handle the responsibilities of handling a firearm. And if we`re in that class and that child does something at 12

years old and they`re not being controlled by their parents, they have to leave, and the parent goes with them.

JACKSON: C.W. Jensen, real quick, I mean, isn`t that logical?

JENSEN: Yes. Mr. Johnson [SIC] is absolutely logical. Every child is different, so to say, "Well, my kid can play hockey now." He might get his

butt kicked, because he`s not ready. Guns are a much bigger deal than a hockey stick. So I agree with Mr. Johnson [SIC]. You know, it`s not a

treat. It`s a very serious...

JACKSON: Samuel Hayes?

HAYES: And let`s be clear.

JACKSON: Great Lion`s Den. We`re coming right back. A lot more about this story and whether she should have even been possessing an Uzi with an

instructor or not. Stay right there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is like a sister losing a brother. These aren`t employees or associates of ours. These are -- these are family. We`re all

family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All the customers have been talking about it. And it`s really been breaking a lot of people`s hearts, because a lot of us

knew him down there. It`s been a rough day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Got a great Lion`s Den. They`re fired up, and we`re debating the issue of common sense. Someone`s dead. A semiautomatic machine gun in the

hands of a 9-year-old. Should that be occurring?

Before we get to the Lion`s Den -- you`re fired up; you`re ready to go -- I`m going to Belinda in Ohio. Thanks for calling. What`s your comment?

CALLER: Hi, Joey. I have two comments. I don`t understand what intelligent person would ever think that a 9-year-old child in America

would have use of an Uzi.

And then my other comment is, we just talked about our police being military -- you know, being like military and then we put an Uzi in a

child`s hands.

JACKSON: Great comments. We appreciate you, Belinda.

So I`ve got to take it out to the Lion`s Den, and I ask you, Evangeline. You talk about constitutional rights, constitutional liberties. What about

common sense? And how does that apply to all the rights that we enjoy in this country?

GOMEZ: First of all, Joey, this young girl was not toting an Uzi through her neighborhood or learning to shoot one in her backyard. He was in a

remote area that was like a desert in a place where they have instructors and, again, had parental consent. This would not be an issue, had this

unfortunate accident not happened. We wouldn`t even be speaking about this on television.

JACKSON: But Evangeline, it did happen.

GOMEZ: And common sense is not common to everybody.

JACKSON: It`s not.

GOMEZ: Different people have different definitions of common sense. There are kids who have different maturity levels, and in different parts of this

country, many parents think it`s OK for a child to learn to use a gun at a young age: to defend themselves, for self-esteem...

JACKSON: Evangeline, I get it, and I understand. And you`re passionate about it, and I love your argument. But, Robi Ludwig, I mean, when are you

going to use an Uzi for self-defense purposes? Is this self-defense for kids?

GOMEZ: This is for recreation.

LUDWIG: What don`t we know? Is she spending -- is she moving to Israel? We just don`t have that information.

Yes, we -- there`s information we obviously don`t have. We don`t know why the parents were thinking along the lines that this would be OK.

But in looking at the video, look how tiny this girl is. It almost looks like the Uzi is bigger than she is. So you know, that`s where a parent`s

common sense comes in. We don`t want to take away anybody`s Second Amendment rights or, you know, the rights of a parent who obviously can

think about their child`s best interests. But...

HANSON: Joey, what about the instructor?

LUDWIG: But something went wrong here.

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: Heather, hold on. Time out. Great Lion`s Den. Time out. Order in the court.

Heather Hanson, look, the reality is, is that I get and I understand -- and you and Evangeline are putting forth a great argument here. But the

reality is, is that why? Why not have her, this beautiful girl, on a playground playing with her friends, throwing a ball back and forth?

Swinging on a swing set?

HANSON: She`s learning a new skill. She`s learning a new skill.

HAYES: She could learn that skill with a .22. She could learn that skill with a .22. She doesn`t have to have a fully automatic submachine gun.

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: We got you.

HANSON: ... yours. For some people, this is recreation. This is the same type of recreation that you enjoy having your kids play basketball. For

some people, this is recreation; and we are not going to take that away from them.

In addition, it doesn`t have to be black or white. There are areas of gray. This firearm place had a policy in place that served them well for

12 years. In response to this event, they have changed their policy. They now only allow children who are over 5`0", who are over, I think, 12 years

of age to fire these types of firearms...

JACKSON: But C.W. Jensen, here`s the issue -- the policy`s been changed. Why has the policy changed after someone dies?

LUDWIG: That`s right.

JACKSON: Should the policy not be in place beforehand?

LUDWIG: Because -- yes.

HAYES: Yes.

JACKSON: Based upon the recoil?

HAYES: That`s why we have policies.

JACKSON: C.W. Jensen?

JENSEN: They know they screwed up. And what is Samuel`s last name? I think I messed it up.

HAYES: Hayes.

JACKSON: You did. It`s Hayes. It`s Hayes.

JENSEN: Right, right. I was thinking of Samuel Johnson.

JACKSON: It`s all good. It`s all good.

HAYES: Who`s that?

JENSEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) The question isn`t why it`s done poorly. The question is why it`s done at all. And in this case, why was it done at all

for a 9-year-old?

JACKSON: And absolutely. I have to agree with that. And going back to you, Samuel Hayes -- Hayes, not Johnson, C.W. Jensen...

HAYES: I mean, look, the owner said it best. He said they have 5-year- olds in there who shoot guns all the time at .22 caliber. I agree with that wholeheartedly. The class that students are -- that kids are allowed

to come to, that I teach, they`re with .22 caliber firearms.

I have never and cannot think of any good reason to put a 9 millimeter firearm in a 9-year-old child`s hand, particularly fully automatic. There

is a substantial difference -- there`s a substantial difference in the recoil impulse between a 9 millimeter firearm and a .22 caliber firearm.

Had this -- had this young lady been out there exercising her Second Amendment right with a .22 caliber firearm, I would be jumping up and down

in the seat like, "Yes, we need to teach our girls to shoot, because a restraining order is just a piece of paper." But the reality is a 9

millimeter fully automatic Uzi is absolutely, positively, in the hands of a 9-year-old, preposterous.

JACKSON: It`s an outrage.

HAYES: Absolutely.

JACKSON: Preposterous. Outrageous. A whole bunch of other things.

Fired-up Lion`s Den, we`re coming back. A lot more to discuss about this issue. It`s legal. But is it wise? Stay right there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Video showing the final moments of instructor Charlie Vacca`s life.

VACCA: Right there. Just like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Before deputies say he was accidentally shot by that girl holding on automatic Uzi.

VACCA: All right. Go ahead and give me one shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCARMARDO: A 9-year-old gets an Uzi in her hand when -- when -- they`re within the criteria. It`s 8 years old, to shoot firearms. We instruct

kids as young as 5 in .22 rifles, and they don`t get to handle high firearms. But they`re under the supervision of their parents and of our

professional range masters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Nine years old, 8 years old, too young.

Now, this isn`t the first time that a child shooting an Uzi has met with deadly consequences. In 2008, this 8-year-old boy accidentally shot

himself in the head with an Uzi. It was at a gun show in Massachusetts. Now, video of the young boy shows that he was struggling to handle the

gun`s recoil.

The organizer of that gun show, well, he`s a former police chief. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you regret that you had the gun show?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely now. It always was meant to be an educational event for people. And unfortunately, this terrible accident

happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now, Lion`s Den, I should tell you that the organizer of the event, well, he was charged but later acquitted of involuntary

manslaughter.

Now before I go to you -- I know you have a lot to say, Lion`s Den. I want to go to Philip who`s from Massachusetts.

Hi, Philip. What do you have to say?

CALLER: I`m not saying too much. I`m enjoying your conversation. But I would say, if there was only one mistake I found seeing the tape, this is

the mistake.

The person by the little girl should have been lying on the ground and firing it that way. Because it`s going to fire that way an Uzi, M-16, F-

15, AR-15, AK. Law enforcement and even military, sometimes, you get instructed to fire on your belly to fire a weapon because of possible

recoil incidents like that or malfunctions like that, fiascos. You know something with this girl? Maybe it was just something she wanted to do

before she, you know, got a tour (ph) and say, "Why did I do this in my life?"

JACKSON: You know what, Philip? You`ve got plenty of time in your life to fire weapons. Nine year old, I mean, that -- she could have realized that

dream a little bit later.

But, Samuel Hayes, let me briefly go to you. What, if anything, could the fire instructor have done differently that would have avoided this tragic

accident?

HAYES: He could have had his hand on the actual firearm so that, if the recoil impulse showed itself to be too much for her, as it was, he would

have been in control of the weapon.

I mean, let`s face it: The little girl wasn`t the threat. The gun was the threat.

JACKSON: Yes, it was.

HAYES: So having your hands on the little girl -- having your hands on the little girl accomplished absolutely nothing. The little girl is not -- the

bullets are coming out of the end of the gun. So his hand should have been on the...

JACKSON: I got you. Dr. Robi, I have to go to you. What about the psychological impact on the girl we haven`t spoken about? How is she going

to be able to get through this in her life?

LUDWIG: I mean, she`s going to have survival guilt, posttraumatic stress disorder, depression, anxiety. This could really separate her from her

peers. I would recommend her going into treatment right away.

But this is something she`s going to have to make sense of for the rest of her life. It`s going to be a burden on her. Hopefully, she can turn it

around. But why should she even have to deal with it in the first place? That`s what`s so tragic here.

JACKSON: Absolutely. And let me go to my constitutional libertarians. Evangeline, last comment. Have we changed your mind at all?

GOMEZ: No.

JACKSON: Heather, have we changed your mind?

HANSON: No. I think...

JACKSON: Unbelievable.

HAYES: I want to invite Evangeline out to come to -- to come to the range and let me teach you how to properly shoot an Uzi.

JACKSON: Well, Evangeline is good peeps. Heather is good peeps.

GOMEZ: I take that invitation. I take it up.

JACKSON: But we`re not going to change their mind. At least we`re not going to tonight. OK? Even though we know we`re on the right side of the

argument.

HANSON: Thank you, Joey.

JACKSON: Absolutely. Great Lion`s Den. A lot more to discuss. But we go to yet another issue that`s going to have the Lion`s Den fired up and

certainly you at home fired up, because a New Jersey man was looking at some serious time behind bars until this police dashcam video -- you see it

there -- has surfaced. And now he`s a free man. And it`s the police that pulled him over that are looking at the jail time.

Don`t go anywhere.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get down! Get back down! Get down!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of car right now!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the -- car! Get out of the car!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did nothing wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Out of the car!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Tonight, a New Jersey man facing several years behind bars is exonerated after dashcam video shows the real story. What he says, well,

that cops used unnecessary and excessive force. Now, Marcus Jeter is suing and those police are in big, big trouble with the law.

Now this video shows Marcus Jeter pulling over as a police car flashes its lights behind him. The two officers approach, holding guns, one pointed

directly at Jeter. Then another officer drives across the median into oncoming traffic slamming right into the front of Jeter`s car.

That cruiser`s dashcam video allegedly captured Jeter in the car with his hands up when his window is smashed and he`s punched and elbowed in the

face, despite his hands in the air. The officers claim that Jeter was resisting arrest and you know what? Going for his gun. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the -- car!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did nothing wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Told you to stop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did nothing wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the car! Don`t grab me!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get the -- out of the car! Stop grabbing me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not grabbing you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t go for my gun. Get down! Stop resisting. Stop resisting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not resisting --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you trying to --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JACKSON: As if this wasn`t enough, the video also appears to show the officer punched Jeter right in the head after he was already cuffed. Now,

Jeter was charged with eluding police, resisting arrest and assault.

But when prosecutors finally saw this shocking video, the second video, all the charges were dismissed. Now two of the officers have been indicted for

falsifying reports. One of them for assault and yet another has pleaded guilty to tampering.

I`ll take it straight out to the lion`s den and you, C.W. Jensen. How should the prosecutors treat the police officers who were involved who were

clearly saying, stop resisting, you`re going for me gun, when he was doing none of the above?

JENSEN: Well, obviously a video and everybody`s story isn`t what`s the deal. It`s tough right now. The officers have been indicted. The suspect

or the -- whatever the guy, the driver is free to go. Now will the officers be convicted of any crime?

I`ll be honest, I`ll use a really technical term here. This was a GoPro. They kicked the guy`s butt. We all need to see what the end game is. I

just don`t know why they did what they did. I`m not saying --

JACKSON: Heather Hanson, don`t we know what the end game is? Apparently, they went to his home, it was a domestic disturbance. They tailed him. He

left. They followed him. What should happen here, Heather?

HANSEN: They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. We need bad cops to be prosecuted so the good cops are protected. The great

thing about this is that we had the camera on the car and we were able to obtain these tapes so these officers will be prosecuted to the fullest

extent of the law. We can`t have people like this on the force.

JACKSON: So Ruby, we know there are great cops out there. We appreciate you and respect you and admire you. Robi Ludwig, this is a pretty

traumatic event, is it not? How will this event stain him in his life experiences moving forward?

LUDWIG: Well, what I was amazed about -- first of all, when you hear about this victim talk about his story, he was so even about it. And what amazed

me is when he put his hands up and the police officers were coming after him, it`s almost like he knew how to play the offensive.

He knew how to present himself in a way where he wouldn`t be considered threatening. I think we have the situation of cops who were sadistic for

whatever reason and hateful towards the people that they have to interact with. They should be prosecuted.

This guy survived. He`s able to tell his story and the truth has come out. So I think in some ways, he`s in a really good place.

JACKSON: Absolutely. Now just so that you know, we did try to reach out to the Bloomfield Police Department and the three officers involved. We

heard back from the attorney of one of the officers. That`s Orlando Trinidad. He`s the one charged with assault as well as falsifying reports.

The attorney says, quote, "At the end of the case, I fully expect Orlando Trinidad to be exonerated. We really filed a motion to dismiss the

indictment due to what we believe whatever is in the presentation of the case to the grand jury.

We believe that the presentation was defective and that the indictment should be dismissed. In the event the motion is denied, we will be fully

prepared to present our case to a jury. The officers also plan to file a joint motion to suppress certain evidence including that dashcam video.

A clear head on view of exactly what happened. And so I go to you, Evangeline Gomez, and ask you this question. If the indictment gets

dismissed, the prosecutor can represent that to the grand jury, can they not?

GOMEZ: The issue here is you have an internal affairs investigation done on these police officers.

JACKSON: That amazed me.

GOMEZ: And internal affairs didn`t find any kind of wrongdoing. You were a prosecutor. What if you had been presented with this type of evidence?

Would you have brought this case? I would hope not.

JACKSON: That`s the point. You think about internal affairs. It`s a great point. How could it be that internal affairs investigates the case,

this person is making these claims and they say, no, the police did everything right and it`s all good, then we find this. Can you explain

that, C.W. Jensen?

JENSEN: Well, I was an internal affairs investigator and a captain in charge of internal affairs. I`m not saying -- I`m saying they came to a

conclusion. I haven`t read that case. Neither have you or anybody else --

JACKSON: But we see what we see. When the cops do something right, we reward them. We appreciate them. But when you see a video like this.

When he`s not touching the again and they say, stop touching my gun, his hands are up -- shouldn`t internal affairs have taken some action, C.W.

Jensen?

JENSEN: Again, a lot of times internal affairs -- unfortunately I`ve done it for a few years -- they`re looking at noncriminal issues. They`re

looking at issues on regulations and rules.

JACKSON: Hold on one second. If you don`t --

JENSEN: If they`re indicted, I don`t know how there wasn`t some kind of official misconduct. So I`m as confused as you and nobody knows what

actually happened.

HANSEN: One pled guilty to tampering with evidence.

JENSEN: Indicted.

HANSEN: No. He`s pled guilty. He pled guilty --

JACKSON: If C.W. Jensen, speaking about the investigation internally, looking at things noncriminal, don`t you think if it rises to the level of

criminality, it would rise to the level of violation of a departmental rule, policy or regulation?

HANSEN: You would absolutely think so. You would absolutely think so. And it seems there`s some problem within the department there and something

that needs to be vetted out. We can`t have police officers that act this way. We need to get rid of them.

JACKSON: Marcus spoke with Hot 97 about this horrifying experience. Here`s his side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCUS JETER: I`m just sitting in there and they still have their guns pointed at me and saying, get out of the car. So I called my lawyer.

They`re trying to open the doors. Nothing happens. At that point, they called for back-up.

As I`m sitting there, I see another car coming on the opposite side of the Garden State Parkway. As he smashes into the car, the officer that was

standing on my left just bust the window. As soon as he opened the door, one of them punched me in my face.

I`m in the car, he hits me. My hands are up the whole time. He undoes my seat belt and elbows me in my jaw and he`s like, stop trying to take my

gun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Now ABC news reports says Jeter`s lawsuit includes that the township tried to conceal one of the dashcam videos. Originally the only

video in evidence was this one and that shows what happened from behind the car. In that one, you can`t see that Jeter`s hands were up when an officer

is saying, don`t go for my gun.

The second tape surfaced later and that completely unravelled the police claims. The prosecutor didn`t even see the video showing what happened

from the front of Jeter`s car until after Jeter`s attorney realized it wasn`t even in evidence and got it through a public records request.

We only have a portion of that video, but Evangeline Gomez, should that case have even been brought? Real quick.

GOMEZ: The case should not have been brought. I`m concerned the prosecutor in this situation -- the prosecutor knows about the dashcams,

knows how many are in there, how many videos exist. They said it didn`t exist, referring to their clients -- makes me scratch my head.

JACKSON: It really does. Should never have been brought. They should have looked at the dashcam video.

Coming up, an all-out brawl. Allegations of a crack cocaine use and a lawsuit, just another day at the office for one of TV`s hottest reality

shows, the real-life saga of "Love & Hip hop."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No matter how cool she appears to be with you, she will stab you in your -- back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Hit show "Love & Hip Hop" Atlanta --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good lord. I`m a lucky guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When people watch it for the first time, they just can`t get enough. I hear that everywhere I go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve got money. I make sure my daughter`s good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t want to watch. And when I watched it, I was glued.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s been something about "Love & Hip Hop" Atlanta.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not complaining. Look around. What a life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JACKSON: Another "Love & Hip Hop" Atlanta cast member is in legal trouble after a brawl erupted during the taping of the reunion. Althea Eaton filed

a lawsuit against Joseline Hernandez. Video of the fight ended up on YouTube. You want to watch this.

Pandemonium. But here`s the bombshell from the criminal complaint. It alleges that Joseline was smoking crack cocaine backstage at that reunion

show. So of course this is just the latest "Love and Hiphop" cast drama earlier this season.

Joseline`s boyfriend, Stevie J, was arrested for allegedly owing more than $1 million in child support. Stevie J`s ex, Mimi, made headline when a sex

tape featured Mimi and her current boyfriend, Niko, that hit the internet.

I got to go straight out to entertainment correspondent, Kendra G. You actually know Stevie J. Tell us about Stevie J and talk to us about what

brawl.

KENDRA G., ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: I know Stevie J and Joseline. I interviewed them both when I was in Atlanta. I have partied with them. I

actually enjoy them. I`m not surprised. This is what they do.

Joseline has been beating up people since the first season of "Love and Hip Hop Atlanta." that should be in your contract. Expect to get smacked by

Joseline Hernandez or this show. So this lawsuit, it doesn`t make any sense to me.

Whether she was high or not, I will not talk about that because I have never seen Joseline myself do cocaine. I have partied with her several

times. So I can`t confirm that. But I can confirm that she will whip a girl`s behind in a heartbeat. So Althea I`m sorry you got what was coming

to you.

JACKSON: Ouch! So let`s watch out this whole thing started. Here`s a clip from VH1`s "Love and Hip Hop Atlanta." Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got to pay again. OK. Let me know when it starts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice general noise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s that cocaine. That`s what that is. That`s diet Coke.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t do that with all these securities. Just do that out there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re doing it right now. We can do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can`t do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Can`t we all just get along? Did you catch that accusation that Stevie and Jocelyn were on drugs? The criminal complaint alleges that

Joseline was smoking crack cocaine out of a pipe backstage.

Back in June Stevie J was arrested for allegedly owing more than $1 million in child support. According to TMZ, he was drug tested after the arrest

and failed. They claimed he tested positive for cocaine and marijuana.

Now you know what? He supposedly passed another drug test, though, in August. Do you think that Stevie and Joseline were high during the taping?

I ask you, Jasmine Simpkins.

JASMINE SIMPKINS, TV HOST: Absolutely, I think they were high on drugs during the taping. I mean, their behavior was absolutely barbaric. And

I`m not surprised and/or shocked that Althea, Fifi decided to go and press charges. My question is why didn`t she do it right after the fight

happened?`

But Stevie has been accused of being on drugs for years. The accusations are not new. And I`m not surprised that he was probably doing cocaine and

Joseline backstage during the taping.

JACKSON: Unbelievable. Now when you watch all this reality stuff, that`s what actually causes us to watch, doesn`t it, Kendra?

KENDRA G.: Yes. And you know what, I got to disagree with Jasmine. I don`t think althea should have pressed charges. When you sign up for this

show you know what you`re getting into. This is not the first season of "Love and Hip Hop," you already know Joseline is crazy.

She`s going to smack you in the face many. We know she slept with Stevie J who is her man. I`m surprised she didn`t beat her up on every single

episode. I don`t condone violence. But you know what you`re getting into. You know what you cannot come to my house --

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: Order in the court.

KENDA G: You cannot come to Joseline`s house and then be surprised when Joseline is Joceline. That`s who she is.

JACKSON: Timeout. Timeout.

SIMPKINS: She deserves to go to jail for punching.

KENDRA G.: No, no, no.

JACKSON: Kendra, great pictures of you. We just saw them roll through the screen as you and Jasmine were going at it. We got a lot more about this

and you guys can fight some more when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told me that Mimi told her that Althea is -- yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, how about this? She said Winnie had dropped the baby off with basically nothing on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Erica told me this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Boy, so you know Jasmine Simpkins that they`re going to be using video in court. What happens next?

SIMPKINS: Well, in court I`m sure that they`re going to be able to play it back and show that Joseline acted like a barbarian.

JACKSON: And backwards and forward.

SIMPKINS: And yes, went over and socked her in the face. And it wasn`t called for. Listen, also I want to make this clear. According to althea,

according to Vinzine, Stevie J, Althea had sex with Stevie J before he was even in a relationship with Joseline. So it was very uncalled for.

JACKSON: Kendra, real quick what happens to your friends?

KENDRA G.: Joseline is going to be clear from this in her contract she`s allowed to beat people up because that`s the reason why she`s on the show.

That`s who Joseline is. She is the baddest -- don`t get her messed up. Hollah.

JACKSON: Can you guys imagine a contract that allows you to beat each other up? You guys are outstanding. We love you. Great panel. You know

what, Nancy Grace is next. Thanks for watching.

END