Return to Transcripts main page

Amanpour

Russian Troops "Invade" Ukraine; Syrian Opposition Pleads for Help

Aired August 28, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: outrage in Ukraine. Kiev accuses Russia of staging a, quote, "full-scale invasion" of

its territory and demands an emergency meeting at the U.N. Security Council. I speak to Ukraine's top representative here in the U.K.

And later in the program how to stop the ISIS onslaught: my interview with the head of the -- of one of the main moderate groups trying to take

them on, the Free Syrian Army.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

At this hour, multiple crises buffeting the world from ISIS to Russia and Ukraine, an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council is

happening right now. You can see live pictures. This after Ukraine demanded Russia explain why its troops have invaded their territory.

NATO says these satellite images are proof that Russian combat forces are inside Ukraine. And in Kiev, people are rallying, calling for greater

military support for their troops who are battling it out in the East.

The Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, came face to face with Russia's president Vladimir Putin just two days ago in Belarus. Both sides

talked about a peaceful resolution to the current crisis, a far cry from the escalation that we're seeing today.

And joining me right now to discuss this here in the studio is Ukraine's top diplomat here in Britain, Andrii Kuzmenko.

Welcome to the program.

ANDRII KUZMENKO, HEAD OF UKRAINIAN EMBASSY IN LONDON: Thank you so much.

AMANPOUR: Could you have imagined two days ago when there was this handshake between your president and the Russian president in Minsk that

this would be the crisis we're facing today?

KUZMENKO: Actually the Minsk meeting, it was the chance for Russian leadership to pull Russia out from the conflict and preserve their face.

It was a diplomatic solution. Unfortunately as it seemed today, they did not use this chance.

AMANPOUR: But what's happened? I mean, as far as you know, what was the conversation? What was the tone between your president and the

Russia's president? I mean, we've heard talk of trying to organize a cease-fire. And suddenly we have an invasion that you're accusing Russia

of committing.

KUZMENKO: Moreover, we have the invasion antisatericay, where we have not terrorists attack and not under the control of the terrorist groups.

AMANPOUR: So this is not even an area where they're fighting, where pro-Russian separatists are fighting?

KUZMENKO: This is the south -- this is the northern coast of Aeolian sea, which is critical in terms of the military strategy for further

communication and further move towards Crimea, towards European countries and towards Balkans.

AMANPOUR: So as we're waiting to see what these speeches will be at the Security Council, what do you hope to achieve? What does Ukraine want

with this meeting at the Security Council?

KUZMENKO: Since the sanctions are already imposed against Russia and we do have these terrible aggravation of situation, it means that those

sanctions are weak and insufficient. We call upon for full stop, full- fledged stop of cooperation with the aggressor for further, tougher sanctions and for support of Ukraine.

We are capable enough to stop the aggression by our own army. We are not, let's say, at this stage, asking for military assistance by the

military troops. However, we need the support military, technical support, financial support and economical assist.

AMANPOUR: I mean, you say you're not going to take part in military demands. But isn't it true that Ukraine cannot afford to take on Russia?

I mean, you saw what happened to the Georgian troops in 2008.

KUZMENKO: We are coping successfully with the Russians in our territory and you see as a -- controlled by terrorists, territory of

Lugansk and Donetsk, all of us is shrinking day to day but this development is very unfortunate one and this is a very new stage of conflict. We will

halt the aggressor and I have no doubt we will defeat.

But for that reason, we will meet the assistance from the West. Since we are fighting not just for territorial integrity of Ukraine, we are

fighting against the war in Europe, which could expose the continent.

AMANPOUR: And right now, as the Security Council, Ambassador Jeffrey Feltman, is speaking; I believe that's him there. He is obviously the U.N.

secretary-general's special envoy on this whole crisis.

What do you think is President Putin's objective?

You say that this is not even an area where pro-Russian separatists are fighting.

So what's the objective of taking forces and artillery attacks there?

KUZMENKO: You know, the Russian troops are not by chance there. And the reason for that is to preserve the personal, let's say, capacity and

personal power of Mr. Putin. Otherwise, if he will step down, if he will make a mistake and it will be seen in the Russian society, which is zone-

defined (ph) right now by the Russian propaganda, he -- the consequences for him could be very, very hard, from the Hague (ph) to some

unpredictable.

AMANPOUR: When you say The Hague, you mean a war crimes tribunal.

KUZMENKO: Yes. We are witnessing another war crime, the opening war at the very center of Europe without the pretext from and result any reason

for that, just due to this sudden imperial ambitions. But we should remember that the war started with imperial ambitions and hence with the

shame for the nation.

AMANPOUR: And you call it imperial ambitions. Of course, we're talking about partly the annexation of Crimea, a part of Ukrainian

territory. Some have suggested that this recent incursion could be to get a land bridge from Russia to Crimea.

What do you and your government assess?

KUZMENKO: From the military point of view, this is quite reasonable for him to -- for the Russians to have kind of the ground breach to

Ukraine. But we, of course, will fighting and we will defend our territorial integrity.

This is inappropriate to tolerate the use of force at the 21st century and attempts to introduce the logic of the social development of 19th

century in our present role.

AMANPOUR: I spoke to your president, Petro Poroshenko, who told me that he had a very full cease-fire proposal, a peace plan that he wanted to

try to present to Vladimir Putin and discuss it.

And he said, obviously we know that Russia has to be part of this solution. We can't have a non-ending war to Russia.

Has that changed? Do you still think that there is a necessity to have a political resolution with Russia?

KUZMENKO: While holding the battles for territorial integrity of our country, simultaneously we perform all the possible actions at the

diplomatic level and the Security Council is, you know, the evidence of this.

Of course the tough negotiations much better than tough war.

AMANPOUR: And we talked a little bit about how to counter this. You spoke a little bit about how the sanctions so far aren't effective enough.

There's going to be a NATO meeting, as you know, the summit in Wales next week and there's obviously going to be a massive focus on this.

What do you hope will come out of that summit?

KUZMENKO: We expect to receive more effective cooperation with the allies. Actually, Ukraine is the only known ally country which takes part

at the all NATO missions and right now we are as close with cooperation, without membership, as this would be. But we'll see what the steps follow.

AMANPOUR: And again, in terms of the sanctions and other kinds of economic pressure, where do you think the weak links are? I mean, clearly

there's been the United States, Germany, others, who keeps ratcheting up the sanctions.

What more do you need on that -- on that level?

KUZMENKO: While dealing with Russia we should take in mind the psychology of the Russian leadership right now. They consider West as

rotten, as weak, as homosexual, if I may, to say -- that's what President Putin --

(CROSSTALK)

KUZMENKO: -- something terrible. But this, what we are facing with, is an open challenge to the system of our values we are adherent to, to the

world order, to the system of the international law. And since the first responses to Georgian aggression, responses to Crimea, were not very

effective. We see this today.

I'm sure that Kremlin thinks, OK, it will be tough time. It will be another sanctions. OK. We will probably lose few percent of our GDP. But

these losses will be recovered later on but the territory will be with us.

So this is open challenge for the existing order. And by only the means of total response of all the countries, of all the world community,

we can stop the aggression and halt it.

AMANPOUR: And Ambassador Feltman has just stopped, I'm being told, as we look at the Security Council pictures. And Lithuania is speaking. And

of course Lithuania responded to your request and demand for the Security Council meeting.

We will dip in and out of some of these speeches.

But in the meantime, what -- your president has staked his future, really, and his presidency on resolving this. And he was elected in part

to resolve this.

There's also a huge amount of desire and demand by the Ukrainian people for a better economic future.

Is he being pressured into a much tougher military response? We just saw today -- and I mentioned it, hundreds of people rallying in Kiev to

demand greater military support for your troops in the East.

KUZMENKO: We should be realistic. After the revolution of dignity, we received as a country in a terrible and destroyed order. It was done by

the previous government, unfortunately, during the previous government and our army was in the very poor condition.

Gradually, from day to day, we are upgrading the Ukrainian army possibilities, capabilities. Trouble is that people on the street would

like -- they're of the patriotic mood, of course -- they would like to defend this country. They would like to fight against and they would like

our army be much more strong and much more decisive.

Probably it will, of course, certain redirection of the state budget for further arming the Ukrainian troops. But for that reason, we need one

more time help, assistance of our allies and friends from the West.

AMANPOUR: And what about the state of what's happened now in the East? I mean, obviously the Ukrainian forces have pushed back a lot of the

separatists. I mean, it's kind of on a seesaw. It seems like you push back one day and then you get pushed back the next day.

People are suffering terribly, ordinary people are terribly, terribly hurt by all of this. How do you get people back to believe in your

government if you can?

Do you think that it's going to take a long time to regain that territory?

KUZMENKO: We have already the examples at the territories retaken by the Ukrainian army. The demonstration with Ukrainian flags became obvious

and became -- very often it ran in the streets. They celebrated in such way -- they of independent Ukraine -- few days ago. The citizen life was

restored. The supply was restored. And they are enjoying the peace and security as a territory and the streets which used to be under the shell

fire a few days ago.

AMANPOUR: And how do you think now this proceeds?

For instance, these self-declared leaders of some of these separatist regions, your government has said -- I think -- that you're not going to

talk to any of these so-called terrorists.

Who do you see as possible interlocutors?

KUZMENKO: Honestly, Ukrainian army, the best interlocutors for the terrorists' troops and terrorist organization like Donetsk and Lugansk

republic.

After the cleaning up the territory, the peace to come to the region and the people will enjoy the peaceful life.

AMANPOUR: But, again, as you try to hammer out a political solution if you can, I mean, the cease-fire, the political points that President

Poroshenko told me about, you know, greater devolution perhaps, obviously respect for the language, et cetera, the Russian language.

Who do you talk to?

KUZMENKO: The government and the governmental officials are nothing to do with the direct communication with terrorists. However, we have a

so-called compact groups in the competition of which we can see, for example, the former president, Mr. Leonid Kuchma, and there are certain

communications there on that channel.

But how they are effective, I am afraid I cannot tell you for a moment at least.

AMANPOUR: Well, we're obviously going to keep taking a very close look at this. Thank you very much indeed for joining me.

(CROSSTALK)

KUZMENKO: (INAUDIBLE). Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Ukraine's top diplomat here in the United Kingdom.

And as the real war continues, a very different kind of battle took place this week.

Take a look at this photo, for a little light relief in all this drama that we're talking about, because this is not another violent or bloody

encounter in Iraq or Syria. In fact, it isn't blood at all that they're spilling there; it is tomato pulp.

It's all part of the Tomatina, which is the annual fiesta in the Spanish town of Bunol, as residents and tourists come out to publicly pelt

each other with tomatoes in a country awash in debt, the Tomatina brings in a bushel full of badly needed euros.

And after a break, another battle, another front, this one in Syria, where ISIS was spawned and a bloody civil war drags on. Has President

Assad outlasted his enemies? I'll ask the new leader of the Free Syrian Army, the moderate opposition, when we come back.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program and as we reported at the top of this hour, the U.N. Security Council is meeting in emergency session

after Ukraine demanded that this meeting be called to demand of Russia an explanation for why it has -- its troops have now, as Ukraine says, it

invaded their territory. Now we see the French ambassador to the United Nations speaking and we expect obviously to hear from the American

ambassador, from the Russian and the Ukrainian officials at the United Nations when we know more about what they said and whether any conclusions

have been achieved. We will obviously bring those to you here on CNN.

And in the meantime, the rise and rise of ISIS poses a clear and present existential danger to the whole civilized world. Its totalitarian

barbarity was chillingly documented by the United Nations this week. And now with the very real fear that ISIS could reach out and strike European

or American targets, President Obama, we're told, is holding an emergency meeting with his national security staff today on ISIS as the U.S. and the

West weighs how to confront it.

Gruesome new images out today show the bodies of Syrian soldiers executed by ISIS. And these just a small portion of the 250 men they claim

to have murdered.

Now the ISIS onslaught, of course, did not come out of nowhere. The moderate anti-Assad opposition says that it warned the United States months

ago about ISIS but feels that it was virtually ignored.

Now ISIS is stronger than ever as we've seen and the Free Syrian Army is on the verge of defeat. It is trying to take on Assad and ISIS at the

very same time and desperate for help the FSA commander newly appointed, General Abd al-Ilah al-Bashir joined me from Istanbul. He said he needs

support from the West now before it's too late.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: General al-Bashir, welcome to the program.

ABD AL-ILAH AL-BASHIR, CHIEF OF STAFF, SUPREME MILITARY COUNCIL, FREE SYRIAN ARMY (through translator): Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: What do you think is going to stop ISIS in Syria and in Iraq?

Will U.S. airstrikes work?

AL-BASHIR (through translator): Yes. The American airstrike could help the revolutionaries to destroy this organization and make them step

back.

AMANPOUR: I presume you mean the FSA, the force you now head.

AL-BASHIR (through translator): I mean by the revolutionaries the FSA.

AMANPOUR: How did ISIS get so strong?

How did it manage to capture the Tabqa base in Raqqa?

And now we see these pictures of Syrian soldiers, who were captured by ISIS; some have been executed, we're told. Many have been beaten.

How did ISIS get so strong in Syria and, of course, in Iraq?

AL-BASHIR (through translator): ISIS grew when they confiscated a lot of weaponry from the Iraqi army. So they headed to Raqqa and they

considered Raqqa a starting. And those soldiers caught by ISIS are part of the Brigade 17.

AMANPOUR: Is that a Syrian Army brigade?

AL-BASHIR (through translator): Yes, from the Syrian Army, who belong to the Syrian regime.

AMANPOUR: Did the FSA, did the Syrian opposition forces, your forces, try to warn the United States before ISIS got so strong?

What did you tell America about ISIS?

AL-BASHIR (through translator): We met with the Americans a few times and we warned them of the danger of this organization and we showed our

readiness to fight against them because it's dangerous not only for the region but the whole world.

And we are ready to defend the whole world. But we did not get much support or help to do that.

AMANPOUR: Who did you talk to? When was it?

AL-BASHIR (through translator): We met in the beginning of May in 2014 with members of Congress, with members of the Pentagon and with

members of the Defense ministry. And then we met with President Obama.

AMANPOUR: Well, then let me ask you, you are the new leader of the FSA. And we get many reports that your forces, the forces in the field,

are on the brink of defeat because they have not had enough aid and not enough weapons and support.

Do you agree with that assessment?

AL-BASHIR (through translator): We, the FSA, we are asking for the minimum possible to continue fighting. The help we're getting is limited,

it's not enough, just enough to continue fighting, not to win.

We are fighting in two fronts, one against the regime and one against ISIS. They are, little by little, occupying the land that we liberated and

it's like cutting one finger at a time until you have cut the entire hand, that's what they are doing and they are going slowly but firmly.

They have the weapons; we don't have enough weapons to defend and that's what's happening because we are divided. We are fighting on two

fronts against the regime and against ISIS.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe the regime sort of helped ISIS?

AL-BASHIR (through translator): We are convicted that it is part of the Assad regime. And they have complete coordination with members of this

regime and they lead and they coordinate with the Syrian regime.

AMANPOUR: General, how did you know that you had become the latest leader of the FSA?

AL-BASHIR (through translator): I was surprised that they nominated me and appointed me as leader. I heard through the media and TV that there

was an order to appoint me as the head of the army.

AMANPOUR: You know, for those of us watching, that seems to reinforce the notion that it is pretty chaotic in your opposition, in the FSA, in the

Syrian opposition coalition. And we hear that many of the ISIS fighters are, in fact, former fighters with your forces, who have fled and fight

with ISIS.

AL-BASHIR (through translator): We are one single body and we are united and whoever leaves and supports them, he is disobeying an order and

a regulation of the Free Syrian Army.

AMANPOUR: That may be the case, but people say they are fleeing and they blame the Free Syrian Army and the opposition Syrian coalition for

failing politically and failing on the battlefield.

AL-BASHIR (through translator): It's not true that we are not united. We liberated a lot of land from the Syrian regime with our limited

resources and with our own effort and with the help of other organizations in the revolution.

AMANPOUR: Right now today, what is your worst nightmare?

How is this going to proceed, do you think, in Syria and in Iraq?

AL-BASHIR (through translator): My worst nightmare is ISIS growing and the regime militia growing as well. And that is happening because we

are not getting support from the countries helping us and especially the United States. They are not dealing with the leadership of the FSA in a

serious way.

AMANPOUR: General al-Bashir, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

AL-BASHIR (through translator): Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And when we come back, we'll have a final thought from our ambassador from Ukraine about the joint struggles of not just Ukrainian

forces right now, but also those on the moderate side of the Syrian opposition, after a break.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, as the U.N. Security Council continues its debate on this crisis in Ukraine, expressing outrage and demanding

answers for Russia's incursion into Ukrainian territory, we turn once more here in the studio to Ukraine's top diplomat here in London, Andrii

Kuzmenko.

Mr. Kuzmenko, I saw you listening to my interview with the FSA commander from Syria as he begged for help in their moderate push to

overturn the brutality of Syria.

Do you feel any kind of sort of kindred spirit?

Do you think you're a little bit in the same boat?

KUZMENKO: I would say that the trends of the international development are -- right now are very worrying and we are living in much

less safer world compared to the previous ones. We witness the absolute dismantlement of the system of international guarantees of the

international obligations and even the written agreements, written documents means nothing for certain countries.

We -- I could share the phrase of the general that we -- the West -- the world should act right now, otherwise tomorrow it will be too late.

Indeed, we should think why that terrorists from Latin America, to the Far East, from Africa to the Donetsk region fighting with Kalashnikov and who

supplied them?

AMANPOUR: Well, on that note, Ambassador Andrii Kuzmenko, thank you very much for joining us.

KUZMENKO: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: And that is it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook

and Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.

END