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The ISIS Threat; Crisis in Ukraine

Aired August 29, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we continue on, top of the hour. I am Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

Big news today out of the United Kingdom, as they have raised the terror alert to severe. That is the second highest level. This is the first time they have done that in some three years because of ISIS. This is according to British Prime Minister David Cameron, who spoke publicly this morning. He said it was the murder of James Foley by an ISIS fighter with a British accent that proves that the militant group's tear through Iraq and Syria is -- quote -- "not some foreign conflict thousands of miles from home."

As for the White House, they say it has no plans to increase the terror alert here in the United States. That is despite Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel's warning a week ago that ISIS -- and I am quoting the defense secretary -- is beyond anything we have seen.

CNN senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta asked about the seeming disconnect of opinion at today's briefing. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Is the president on the same page as his Cabinet when it comes to dealing with ISIS?

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, I think the more important observation, Jim, is that the Cabinet is on the same page as the commander in chief, and I am fully confident that's the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring him in. Jim Acosta is joining me and our chief political analyst Gloria Borger joining me as well.

But, Jim, just to you, I just want to talk a little further about that exchange, because it went on for a little bit longer. The president -- just talking to David Gergen, former adviser, CNN senior political analyst, said, listen, the president is being prudent, he is being cautious, and to your point, though, it is certainly David Gergen's observation as well that the opinions, whether it is Joint Chiefs Chairman Martin Dempsey or Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel and then the president, they all seem to be in different places.

And he said that it seems the president is leading from behind, though I imagine the White House would disagree. ACOSTA: Well, remember, Brooke, and I have said this before many

times, I think one word that describes President Obama more than anything else is caution.

He is a cautious commander in chief and I think what we saw yesterday was that the president was perhaps taken to the very edge of ordering military strikes by the Pentagon, by the national security team, but he decided to wait and to consider these options further.

It was interesting to note when I asked White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest about that statement that the president made yesterday that got everybody's attention, which is "we don't have a strategy yet" -- quote unquote -- to deal with the ISIS threat, to hit ISIS targets in Syria, what Josh Earnest said was, well, the president doesn't have options on his desk or options from the Pentagon yet.

Over at the Pentagon's briefing today, rear Admiral John Kirby, the Pentagon president secretary, said that the Pentagon is ready. So there is a disconnect, not only between the president and the defense secretary, but it seems the White House and the Pentagon. And so I tried once again to go back to Josh Earnest, and ask for clarification of that comment. Does the president regret it? And here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EARNEST: He was asked a very specific question about whether or not the president would seek a congressional authorization before ordering any sort of military -- military action in Syria.

And the point the president made was that that's putting the cart before the horse. The president hasn't yet laid out a specific plan for military action in Syria. And the reason for that is simply that the Pentagon is still developing that plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And I later on asked, Brooke, whether or not there's a debate inside the administration about whether or not to hit ISIS in Syria. Press Secretary Josh Earnest said, well, I wouldn't describe it that way, but he also didn't deny it, Brooke.

BALDWIN: So, to Jim's point, Gloria, yes, the adjective to describe the president cautious, but, again, to this notion of no strategy, that elicits a lot of, whoa. Where do you stand on that?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, look, I think that particularly juxtaposed today with Prime Minister David Cameron's remarks, which were very strong and directly said there is a national security threat to the United Nations that comes from ISIS, the president has not yet been that direct with the American people.

The closest he came was in an interview with Tom Friedman in "The New York Times" the first week in August in which he said we do have a strategic interest in pushing back ISIS. That's different language. So the American public is saying if David Cameron can be so direct, you need to be more direct with us.

And what happens is they believe he is ambivalent and conflicted, and you see that play out. And when they look at a president, they want a leader who makes decisions and tells them why he's making them. And I think at this point they feel like they haven't seen that yet.

BALDWIN: I have also heard others opine saying, listen, as far as Britain is concerned, there were far more British jihadis, foreign fighters over there and that the threat would be more imminent. That's just what one camp would say.

Let me ask about this, because I know for the both of you, it has been awful quiet in D.C., which is kind of nice, but Congress is coming back next week. And so we know that the president has said...

ACOSTA: We wish it could be more quiet, Brooke.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

But the president has said it may not be necessary to a sign-off from Congress on potential airstrikes in Syria. But that said, you have the number one Republican in the Senate, Mitch McConnell, telling CNN that the president would have -- quote, unquote -- "a lot of congressional support."

So wouldn't it behoove him to maybe get Congress in on this, Gloria?

BORGER: I spoke with a senior administration official who says that privately lots of members of Congress on both sides of the aisle don't seem particularly eager to have to vote on the use of military force this close to an election. They'd rather not do it.

The White House is a little bit concerned what kind of vote they would get. Yes, they would probably get more support from some Republicans than they would from some Democrats, particularly liberal Democrats.

But, look, it all depends on what the president asks for or what he thinks he is going to need. And I think Jim would agree that in that press conference yesterday, the president was very, very careful to say that while he would consult with Congress, he didn't necessarily say that he had to ask Congress permission for anything. That depends on what he decides to do.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: OK. OK.

ACOSTA: That's absolutely right. I don't think the White House at this point, Brooke, very quickly, I don't think they have made decision yet as to whether or not they will go to Congress to seek authorization. I talked to a senior administration official earlier this week who said they just haven't reached that decision at this point. So that's very much an open-ended question.

BALDWIN: OK. Jim Acosta, Gloria Borger, thank you both very much.

Let's just all keep in mind the president has ordered the Pentagon, when we talk about figuring something out, not making a decision, the president has ordered the Pentagon to give him a plan by the end of the week to potentially carry the fight against ISIS into Syria. And by all indications, he is not really big on the options he's seen so far.

With that in mind, I want you to take a look at this. Barbara Starr asked really the money question, if I may, today at that Pentagon briefing. I want you to watch the reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Question right there, why are you not yet ready with military options for Syria? Why is the president still waiting? Why are you not ready, given everything that Secretary Hagel...

(CROSSTALK)

REAR ADM. JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Planning is an iterative process, Barb. It's not like -- the question assumes this is some sort of binary thing, where we get ordered to do it and here's the binder, and there you go, and it's on your -- we have got it turned in to you on your due date.

It is an iterative process, because the situation on the ground constantly changes. It is very fluid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It is fluid in Iraq, it's fluid in Syria, apparently fluid at the Pentagon as well.

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling back with me now live from Orlando. He's former commanding general of U.S. Army in Europe and Seventh Army.

General, do we have any idea what the president is asking the Pentagon for that thus far it appears he is not getting?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, I think the president is asking the Pentagon for options.

They more likely provided that. But I will push back. I was listening to previous guests, Brooke. And I would say just because we have an airstrike doesn't make it a strategy. I think there are a lot of people who are saying, when is the button going to be pushed, when is the flip going to be switched, and let's get a bomb on target.

That's only one part of a strategy. The military option is only one part of the strategy. I think for the last week or so, we have very -- we have looked closely at targets, we have looked very closely at actions. And all of the courses of action again have been developed by the Pentagon, as Admiral Kirby just said. And now it fits into a bigger plan that the president has to execute, which is diplomatic, informational, economic, coalition building, all the things that are associated with a military strike.

BALDWIN: I understand.

HERTLING: You can't just say a military strike is a strategy.

BALDWIN: I understand. It is an umbrella concept, given all of the things you just outlined. It is not just hitting a button, clearly not.

But then when you look at what's happened overseas, you have these beheadings, you have these executions, this evil that ISIS is flaunting. That's what's getting the headlines. But let's remember, this is what Prime Minister David Cameron -- this is what he addressed today, that ISIS has set about creating its own state, its own caliphate by taking over parts of Syria and Iraq.

And then Cameron pointed out that ISIS wants, and this is additionally frightening, that ISIS wants Lebanon, wants Jordan. You have the massive Saudi oil fields. General, is that the kind of scenario that's actually truly being gamed out behind closed doors at the Pentagon?

HERTLING: I absolutely think so.

BALDWIN: Wow.

HERTLING: I think the Pentagon is certainly taking a regional approach. And again going back to what Mr. Cameron said, those were very tough words, very strong words, but it is President Obama that has to act.

So he's building that coalition force that will actually act, as opposed to just talking about it. And even if he does have a plan and it is solid in his head and what he wants to do, I'm not sure he's going to tell the American media what that plan is or when it is going to be executed.

BALDWIN: I understand. Element of surprise, makes total sense, and -- militarily. When you sit back though and when you look at what ISIS has done thus far, seized enough of these two countries, Iraq and Syria, to declare itself a state in a matter of just a few short months, just even looking back, General, to, what was it, January, it is the rate at which they have seized these territories I think has definitely surprised the administration. Did it surprise you?

HERTLING: It has to a degree.

I think it surprised anybody that looks at the area, Brooke. But, again, that might be part of the strategy, is the strategy, hey, let's just take care of them in Iraq to blunt their efforts and work with a government that's beginning to regain their footing, maybe contain them in Syria for a potential attack later on. All of those things go into it. And, again, I think when you talk about strategy and its ends, ways,

and means, the first question Pentagon planners will ask themselves is how does this end? Does it just end with a bomb being dropped? Is there going to be coordination with the Syrian government? What comes next and how do you get others in the world to support that?

This is an area where we are culturally and linguistically challenged. It's very tough to just go in, set off an explosion and then get out. There's a whole lot more that goes to it. I think the Pentagon planners as well as State and Homeland Security are talking about, what's the overall action that will develop a strategy to protect the American people and at the same time get rid of this horrific threat?

BALDWIN: That's a great point too to try to understand that they're thinking, how does it end, what's the ultimate goal and then figuring out that multipronged strategy from there.

General Mark Hertling, thank you so much, Lieutenant General.

Coming up next, just into CNN, we have some information from Britain as far as what's happening with Russia, Ukraine. Sources out of the U.K. tell CNN that Russia just moved thousands more troops into Eastern Ukraine. How does that change the state of play there?

Meanwhile, the Russian foreign minister says that these images right here of Russian tanks entering Ukraine are actually from computer games. That's what they're saying. Diana Magnay, our correspondent on the ground in Ukraine, will have a live report for us coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We have to talk about what Ukraine is calling a full-scale invasion of its land by Russia. A British government source now tells CNN Russia has moved between 4,000 and 5,000 troops into Eastern Ukraine. That British source says the point here is to distract Ukraine so it cannot focus on the recently seceded Crimean region. That's what they say that they're doing here.

Today, you have the White House saying that this buildup of Russian troops in Ukraine is putting Russia at risk for even more sanctions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EARNEST: The president is traveling to Europe next week. He will have the opportunity to meet with a number of our NATO allies, and the situation in Ukraine is a prominent item on the agenda, and I am confident that there will be serious discussions about imposing additional economic costs on Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: As far as this aggression, Russia is denying, denying, denying. Its foreign minister explained these satellite images of Russian artillery inside Ukraine as fake and from computer games. OK? That's from Russia.

In the meantime, we have Reuters reporting that Russian President Vladimir Putin before an audience of youth campers compared the actions of the Ukraine's army to the Nazis.

Still today, in yet another twist, Putin offered a kind of reprieve from the violence.

Let's go to CNN's Diana Magnay in Mariupol, Ukraine.

Diana, you went to this town. It was taken by pro-Russian forces in south Ukraine. What did you find there?

DIANA MAGNAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

It has really been the epicenter in the last couple of days of these claims that Russian forces have been coming in to support pro-Russian rebels, certainly in opening up a new front in the south. Two days ago, this town of Novoazovsk was taken over by pro-Russian forces and a commander of a Ukrainian volunteer battalion said he had no doubt that they were Russians and had Russian heavy armor with them to support them.

We actually went into the town today, talked to the rebel commander there. He said that he captured these tanks from the Ukrainian army on his way down from the Luhansk evening, where he had been fighting. They did seem to be -- to have fairly sophisticated weaponry, T-72 tanks, and we saw a convoy of them leaving town as we were going in.

But they were really just establishing new checkpoints. And the mood in this town was extremely peaceful, just people going about daily lives. There were signs up saying to the people of this town, we hope that you will -- we are the army of Novorossiya, New Russia. We hope that you will continue your peaceful lives and we will defend you doing that.

You don't get the sense that this is enough troops to continue any kind of push beyond this small town very close to the Russian border towards where I am, for example. You would need many more troops, many more tanks to really push deeper into Ukraine.

BALDWIN: So peace in that town. Diana, thank you, again.

Hearing from Britain, 4,000 to 5,000 troops inside of Ukraine and then 20,000 or so just on the other side of the border. Thank you so much out of Mariupol, Ukraine, for us.

Coming up, Britain raising its terror threat level today due to severe because of the growing threat of ISIS, but why raise the threat level when leaders say they don't actually know of any imminent threat of an attack? We will discuss that.

Also ahead, reporters gain access to what they call the ISIS laptop of doom. Buried in hidden files, they found all kinds of information about the bubonic plague and chemical weapons. So that's one thing. The real question is do they have the resources to pull off these types of attacks? Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: As we have been reporting today, the United Kingdom raised its terror level to severe. This is in response to the threat ISIS has been posing. You think what does severe mean? It means that U.K. officials believe a terror attack is highly likely.

But here is the thing. There's actually no intelligence to suggest an attack is imminent. We heard from the British prime minister earlier speaking publicly. He said he is ready to start seizing passports of potential suspects.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We have all been shocked and sickened by the barbaric murder of American journalist James Foley and by the voice of what increasingly seems to have been a British terrorist recorded on that video.

It was clear evidence, not that any more was needed, that this is not some foreign conflict thousands of miles from home that we can hope to ignore. The ambition to create an extremist caliphate in the heart of Iraq and Syria is a threat to our own security here in the U.K.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: U.K. authorities estimate -- again, this is just pure estimation -- just about 500 Britons have gone to Syria and Iraq to fight with these Islamic groups.

So, Tom Rogan, let me bring you in, "National Review" contributor and "Daily Telegraph" columnist.

Tom, you say when the British go public like this, when they're going out there talking about a terror threat change, you say it is a recognition of the fact that they're losing control. What do you mean by that?

TOM ROGAN, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Yes, absolutely. Good to be with you, Brooke.

I think what's going on here is that the British government has simply come to the conclusion, the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, which is the organizing entity that has made this decision, combined from all the different U.K. intelligence services, has come to the understanding that because of the number of individuals who have gone to Syria and Iraq to fight with the Islamic State, and because of their existing taskings in terms of monitoring a significant number of individuals they believe are connected to extremism in the U.K., it is very, very difficult for them to have a good degree of confidence that if these individuals come back, they will be able to control them in the way that they would need to.

BALDWIN: Which is frightening, you know, in and of itself, to think that these people could go going back to the U.K., and then you have a far fewer number of Americans apparently doing the same thing.

Here is what else I wanted to ask you. You cover national security, following extremism for a number of years. When is the last time you saw David Cameron or someone in his position using such forceful language in discussing a threat like this?

ROGAN: Yes.

I mean, it is actually pretty unprecedented for David Cameron to be talking in this way. And I think that reflects the level of concern by the branch chiefs at the security service MI5, MI6, the U.K. equivalent of the CIA, and GCHQ, which is the NSA equivalent in the U.K., that they simply don't believe now that they can have the level of confidence that they would wish to have in terms of identifying, monitoring and protecting the British people against these individuals.

BALDWIN: What's also interesting in this sort of wave of extremism, and this is a point one of our correspondents in London, Karl Penhaul, made earlier in the show -- he said, Brooke, this is a generational battle. Do you agree with that?

ROGAN: I absolutely think it is.

I think if you consider -- and Jim Sciutto, your own chief national security correspondent, has written about this. The generation of young, predominantly British-Pakistani men who feel disenfranchised in British society, obviously, the vast majority are peaceful, law- abiding, but there's concern that there is a social dissection, and that there's this sense of purpose and identity that links with extremism more than it does with the United Kingdom.

And obviously that's a great ideological struggle for the British government and it's something they're talking about a lot.

BALDWIN: But with these different groups, al Qaeda, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, ISIS, what is it about ISIS, it seems? Is it the recent track record of I hate to see success, given the bloodshed and the brutality, but is that part of what it is that is alluring for these young, malleable men?

ROGAN: I think part of it is the fact that the Islamic State have been very open to having foreigners come in.

But also if you look at -- I wrote a piece recently analyzing their videos. It's to young men who feel disenfranchised. I describe it as "Grand Theft Auto" in the flesh.

BALDWIN: Wow.

ROGAN: It's like a gang mentality. It attracts people who feel already angry and want to go and join a group to be part of something that they see as bigger than themselves, and it is a big challenge in that way.

But I think the fact that the Islamic State has welcomed these people in and the successes, it gives this sense of ordained purpose, we are on God's side, this is working, finally I belong to something, and that's a great tragedy and a great problem for the British government to address.

BALDWIN: Hopefully, they're addressing it and stopping these people from coming back and becoming radicalized. And who knows what could happen.

Tom Rogan, thank you so much. Come back. Appreciate you for coming on.

ROGAN: Thank you. Yes, I would love to.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, what we're getting, word of more U.S. airstrikes in Iraq near the contested dam we have been telling you about, we have been reporting on. We are live from Northern Iraq after this quick break.

Also ahead, reporters from "Foreign Policy" magazine, so they have gained access to what they are calling this ISIS laptop of doom. And so buried in all these hidden files on this computer are these plans to unleash a biological attack. Could these terrorists pull this kind of attack off, chemical weapons? Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)