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Britain Fears ISIS Will Strike at Home, Ukraine Warns Full- Scale Invasion By Russia; Ukraine, ISIS Crises Worsening; Should America Pay Ransom for Hostages?; Should U.S. Pay Ransom for Hostages; Bergdahl: Ransom or Prisoner-of-War Trade; Sexual Harassment on Capitol Hill; Openly Gay NFL Player Cut from Team; Obama Bashed for Tan-Colored Suit
Aired August 30, 2014 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Brianna Keilar. ISIS militants are reportedly selling abducted Iraqi girls and women to other is fighters in Syria. A UK-based monitoring group reports ISIS recently sold about 300 girls and women from Iraqis persecuted religious minority group the Yazidis, the reported price about $1,000 for each female, this comes as Secretary of State John Kerry has written a strongly worded op-ed in "The New York Times" calling for more nations to help the U.S. defeat ISIS. Kerry writes, quote, "A much fuller response is demanded from the world. No civilized country should shirk its responsibility to help stamp out this disease." And right now people in the UK have fresh worries about a possible ISIS attack. Britain has raised its threat level to severe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA MAY, BRITISH HOME SECRETARY: The terrorist attack is highly likely. But there is no intelligence to suggest that an attack is imminent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: I want to bring in now correspondent Karl Penhaul, he's there in London. You've been covering this since the threat level was increased yesterday. Are you seeing any visible signs of increased security, of more police presence there on the streets?
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, I have been really surprised. Today in London we've hit some of the key points. It's a busy shopping day today as well. At one point at Kings Cross train station, that's one of the biggest train stations in the country, I said to a policeman in a vehicle there, hey, are you part of the increased response because of the terror alert? He said, no, no, you've got it wrong. There is no terror alert, he said. The threat's only moderate. Then one of his colleagues said, no, no, the journalist got it right, I saw something on the TV about that. So a lot of people really aren't aware that this is going on. Let's take a look at something that we found out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PENHAUL: Britain is on the high alert but government is telling us that a Jihadi attack is highly likely so we've come down to the streets of Central London to see if there are signs of panic. This is Kings Cross train station. One of the busiest in the country.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: What happens, what happens. You don't think every time you get on the train something is going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I think it's trying to make people scared really. That's all it is. Make people scared and then they'll -- they'll -- they're more likely to support something if the government then eventually did try to go into Iraq.
PENHAUL (voice-over): Britain is no stranger to homegrown terror plots. In 2005 in the so-called 7/7 attacks four suicide bombers killed 52 people in London.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: If you let things like that rule your life, you'd never do anything. So although you are aware of it and you hope that the government's on top of the situation, you just got to take it on trust that they are.
PENHAUL: Police chiefs are saying that they'll step up patrols in public places like train stations, airports and tourist hot spots like here in Trafalgar Square but Saturday afternoon there was no sign of that except near the one that is getting married, this group of young women out on a pre-wedding hen party dressed as British Bobbies.
(on camera): The Cameron's place to crackdown on radical Islam is leaving some feeling uneasy fearing that it could turn into a witch hunt against all Muslims.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: It's like in movies alien invasion the first thing people think about attacking them. That's exactly the same with us. They don't know why we do it or what it is that we want from this so they go and attack it because they don't know it.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yes, there is radicalism, but that exists in every community and not just Islam but Islam has been focused and used as a scapegoat.
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We are in the middle of a generational struggle.
PENHAUL: Mr. Cameron said that he could announce new measures to parliament this week. No word on how long the heightened terror alert could last.
Now, Prime Minister David Cameron did say that there wasn't any specific intelligence suggesting that an attack was imminent. He did link it, of course, to the more than 500 British Jihadis now suspected of fighting in Syria and Iraq with ISIS. But as you can see there, the average everyday Briton really isn't getting panics by this at all -- Brianna.
KEILAR: Yes. And some think that maybe there is no reason to be concerned. Fascinating report. Karl Penhaul for us in London.
As concern over Russia's actions in Ukraine continues to grow, we're hearing a frightening warning from one of the European leaders meeting in Belgium today, he says Russia is nearing a, quote, "point of no return in Ukraine." A CNN team in the port city of Mariupol saw Ukrainian forces strengthening defensive positions on the outskirts of the city, reinforcing checkpoints, digging trenches there along the roads that are leading towards the Russian border, this a day after Russia's foreign minister denied accusations that Russian troops crossed into Ukraine despite these NATO images.
Let me bring in Heather Conley, she is with the Center for Strategic and International Studies, Europe programs, she's also a former deputy assistant secretary of state for the bureau of European and your Asian affairs.
Heather, thanks for being with us. And one of the things I'm curious about is the semantics of this. We hear some people really reticent in the U.S. government to call this an invasion. But is it time to simply call this a war?
HEATHER CONLEY, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: I think it's time to call it an invasion. In some ways we help prolong President Putin's game if you will of trying to use hybrid warfare, taking, you know, Russian license plate off of vehicles, taking badges off to try to obscure the fact that Russia has sent troops and very sophisticated weapons and tanks into Ukraine. Ukrainian President Poroshenko said today, this may be a point of no return. He's absolutely right.
This key city of Mariupol, if the Russians are able to take that and they create a land bridge from Crimea to the Eastern Ukraine in some ways Russia has divided Ukraine. The stakes are enormous and it's time for us, certainly for the Obama administration to begin calling a spade a spade and then start taking some very significant action not only to shore up NATO countries but really to examine ways to support the Ukrainian military.
KEILAR: And if they call it an invasion, the imperative to do something increases?
CONLEY: Of course, it does. And that's what places enormous stakes next week when President Obama attends a NATO Summit in Wales.
KEILAR: Yes.
CONLEY: NATO is already going to talk about a pretty robust plan, but maybe it's time to revisit that. Make it more robust for the NATO countries and then maybe thinking about providing lethal assistance to the Ukrainian military. Time is of the essence. We don't have time and certainly the Ukrainian military is certainly looking increasingly shaky as they try to defend their country.
KEILAR: Heather, today the European commission president said, quote, "this is a point of no return." This inevitable, that point of no return. Do you see this being a pivotal moment, and do you think there's a way to turn the tide in Ukraine?
CONLEY: That's a great question. What we've seen over the last month has been a dramatic escalation of Russian support to the separatists and now it's no longer support. They're pouring troops into Ukraine. Sanctions have unfortunately not changed President Putin's calculations. If anything, I almost feel like they've emboldened him. Yesterday's comments from President Putin reminding us of Russia's importance, reminding us that Russia is a nuclear power he feels quite emboldened and that's why it's very important for NATO next week to put a strong statement out. There's strong solidarity. The European Union is already going to it looks like enhance sanctions against Russia. The United States needs to do the same and there needs to be a robust security response.
KEILAR: Yes, we'll be watching next week especially as some in the administration arguing those sanctions are having more effect. It's great to get your perspective, Heather Conley, thank you.
CONLEY: Thank you.
KEILAR: And that point of no return statement, that was an ominous warning. What would that mean for this crisis? We'll go live to Kiev ahead for more on that.
And so far, not many people have been willing to fight ISIS. We'll consider who might join a coalition against these militants.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: President Obama told a group of fund-raisers last night that he knows it looks like the world is falling apart right now but we'll get through it. As reported Russian troops making their way into Ukraine now number in the thousands and in Iraq is fighters are kidnapping women, selling them into enslaved marriage.
Michael Weiss is a contributor for Politico Magazine and he's joining me now live from Kiev. Michael, thanks for being with us. And I want to ask you specifically about what the president of the European Commission had to say. These were some strong words about Russia today. The quote is this, the opening of new fronts and the use of regular Russian forces is not acceptable and represents a grave transgression. We may see a situation where we reach the point of no return. From where you're standing, is he right that there is this point of no return here imminently ahead of us?
MICHAEL WEISS, POLITICO MAGAZINE CONTRIBUTOR: I think we've already reached that point to be honest. I've been talking to Ukrainian officials and civil society activists all day here in Kiev. As far as they're concerned they're at a state of war with Russia. In fact, a few European leaders have come pretty close to calling this an invasion. The Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt tweeted the other day that we are now seeing Ukrainian regular forces fighting Russian regular forces, there is quote, "a word for this." The president of Estonia yesterday and keep in mind that President Obama is due in Estonia on Tuesday at a meeting to reassure our NATO ally that the United States stands behind it. The president issued one of the most robust statements calling this a
quote, "undeclared war" and on twitter referring to it openly as an invasion. Again, that's the president of Estonia. So, European leaders especially those on Russia's periphery and especially those who border Ukraine or certainly feel the might of the Russian military and the threat posed by Vladimir Putin are seeing this as a definitive act of war on European territory. I mean, Russia already seized Crimea, now they've sent over 1,000 soldiers into East Ukraine, many of those soldiers by the way are being killed and sent back in body bags to Russia. The parents of those soldiers don't know where their sons have been buried. You know, the combat missions have not been disclosed publicly by Russia. This is the definition of a dirty, undeclared war, absolutely.
KEILAR: And I wonder when you talk to Ukrainian officials there, they are obviously looking to Europe, to the west, to the US for support and we're hearing from administration officials here that this is a, quote, "escalation," that it's a, quote, "effort." What do they want from the U.S.? And why does it matter when we're talking about words here?
WEISS: Well, look, I think it's very interesting, and you know, Ukrainian officials are being careful I think in publicly making requests such as for lethal weaponry and other things because they know if they do that, they're probably going to be hung out to dry. They're not going to get it. Although it is interesting I should note that both Poland and Romania, the president of Romania today issued a statement saying that the European Union should absolutely increase sanctions and should also now arm the Ukrainian military.
I spoke to two civil society activists today who told me something very interesting which I think most people in the west don't realize. The Ukrainian military is almost 50 percent funded by private donations from civil society. People are raising money. They are sending food. They are buying defensive weaponry materials, flak jackets, night vision goggles, you name it, for their sons and daughters. The volunteers, the people who are joining up. I mean, if you drive into the airport from downtown Kiev you see all kinds of billboards basically looking for recruits to the National Guard, to the military, whatever.
So, I think, look, Mr. Putin has underestimated Ukraine's willingness to resist and fight. He thought the people of East Ukraine would going to be automatically pro-Russian and rise up and join the separatist and indeed stump for an open Russian invasion and annexation. That didn't happen. So I think he actually, you know, he's gone so far that, you know, to go back at this point it was almost -- it would almost be the same consequences as just carrying forward. And the real question is what is the end goal? And here you're going to get different answers. The so-called Nova Rosia (ph) concept which is to say, Russia not only has a land bridge to Crimea but also annexes territory as far as Edessa creating a complete contiguous territory of the Russian federation all the way to Transnistria which is occupied territory in Moldova.
Some Ukrainians think that's little too ambitious, that's not going to happen but it doesn't matter. What matters is conventional Russian forces, elite airborne troops are now in East Ukraine. Ukrainian forces were coming out of Mariupol being cheered but they look like they've just been through hell. This is a real war. OK, there are talks about getting journalists embedded with the Ukrainian military. Those talks now seem to have been stoppered because the Ukrainian authorities think it's just simply too dangerous to send journalists to the east. So, this is a war. Whatever the west chooses to call it, there's no question.
KEILAR: Yep, by any name. You are seeing it there on the ground.
WEISS: Yes.
KEILAR: Thank you so much, Michael. Michael Weiss with Politico Magazine. I appreciate it.
WEISS: Sure, my pleasure.
KEILAR: Well, ISIS and the crisis in Ukraine are two big problems for the president with no easy answers or obvious solutions.
Our regular commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill finally here in the same studio a momentous occasion and they are ready to go toe to toe on those topics, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: The president says we will get through the crises in Ukraine and the Middle East and that the same democratic fund-raiser last night he told supporters, quote, "the world always been messy, we're just noticing now in part because of social media."
Let's bring in CNN commentaries Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson together with us in New York for the first time. I want to ask both of you this question. I'll start with you, though, Ben. Do you agree with the president on that? Let me guess.
BEN FERGUSON, CNN COMMENTATOR: No, I don't. We're just finding out things are bad in the world because of social media. It's like, how ignorant do you think the majority of the American people are? We've known that the world has been a messy place long before social media. We had newspapers that reported it. We had people in other countries. We had this thing called the United Nations I think, don't they talk about it when things are getting messy around the world. So, this idea now that you think just you know, everybody calm down, it's really social media that's pushing this up.
The forefront, I think it shows a lack of a plan yet again by this administration on what they're trying to do. And they keep saying, well, we need to calm down. How much longer are we going to calm down Ukraine? They're saying it's not an invasion. Go talk to the people that are in Ukraine and you tell me when you have troops rolling down your street with tanks if you feel like that's an invasion or not. That's an invasion.
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN COMMENTATOR: I really appreciate the opportunity to disagree with you in person --
FERGUSON: I know. That's nice.
HILL: On everything you just said. First, I think social media does change the landscape here. Not for politicians. Not for global leaders but for everyday people who now have access to a lot more information. For example, ISIS literally has decapitation videos going around. They have their own Facebook page. Hamas had the same thing. So, in a sense people have more access to information, so people feel like things are more dangerous and more precarious than other ones --
FERGUSON: Sure. But the idea that the White House somehow now has more information that they didn't or going to have before I think is a little bit naive and misleading. I think most people believe that they always had good information.
HILL: The White House has always had good information. That wasn't the president's point. The president's point is that people are a little more anxious and worried about what's going on because of the news access they have.
KEILAR: Do you think they are? Do you think this is just sort of a run-of-the-mill --
HILL: I think people are sitting there seeing this and say how is it happening?
KEILAR: Do you think is it a run-of-the-mill collection of international problems?
HILL: Yes. I mean, to some extent we're at a really bad place. Unusually bad timing obviously with Syria, with Ukraine, with the ISIS controversy, with Gaza in the last two months, I mean, all of this stuff is happening at once. That's for sure. I think it's unfair to say though that the president doesn't have a plan.
FERGUSON: He said he didn't have a plan. Look at ISIS. What president has ever walked out saying, we don't have a plan on how to deal with ISIS yet but we're going to get one. You are the president of the United States of America. You're supposed to have a plan. This has been going on for two years now in Syria. ISIS did not just get created yesterday.
HILL: ISIS was created because of the invasion of Iraq in --
FERGUSON: ISIS was created because we caught the guy that started ISIS and we let him go. Because we had a policy --
HILL: And we completely disrupted the sectarian distribution of power when we invaded Iraq, that allowed ISIS to foment, what happened in Syria made it worst. You can't blame ISIS on President Obama.
KEILAR: Let me ask you about some of I guess, the messaging in a way even just the tone. Because this is important. I don't think anyone looks at what's going on in Syria and says, oh, that's a very simple problem to solve.
FERGUSON: Exactly.
KEILAR: This is a very complicated problem, but here is my point. We heard Secretary Hagel last week, we heard the chairman of the Joint Chiefs Martin Dempsey say one thing pretty strong language. You need to deal with ISIS in Syria. Then we hear President Obama coming out tapping the brakes this week.
HILL: Thankfully.
KEILAR: And we see this op-ed today with Secretary Kerry who seems to kind of doing that as well --
FERGUSON: But there's a reality that ISIS is going to have to be dealt with. Hold on. But you have the secretary of defense and you have Hagel and others who came out there and basically saying, I'm separating myself from this policy of the White House which is, we don't know what we're going to do. We're telling you this is a group that has to be dealt with. It has to be dealt with whether we like it or not they're going to come and fight us at some point. Trust them.
HILL: No, they're not!
FERGUSON: That's the same thing you said about al Qaeda and they came and fought us on 911.
HILL: I never said that about al Qaeda.
FERGUSON: Many people said that including Bill Clinton who said, I can't take him out.
HILL: Mostly George W. Bush. Here's the point. Nobody in the world that I've met thinks ISIS doesn't need to be dealt with. I mean, that's the easy part. The question is, how does ISIS get dealt with? Air strikes are not enough. You ultimately have to be on the ground.
KEILAR: You have to be on the ground.
FERGUSON: I'm in shock you just said that of all people. I'm encouraged that I'm shock. Can we get you a job at the White House?
HILL: It doesn't mean we have to be on the ground. The problem is, this sort of --
FERGUSON: Who is going to do it?
HILL: That's why you fund rebels. That's why you armed rebels --
FERGUSON: You want to arm rebels now.
HILL: I've always wanted to arm rebels, I want to arm rebels in Syria, I want to arm rebels in Iraq, I want to arm the Kurds. I don't want to arm people but at the same time we need people on the ground doing this point. KEILAR: But we are at this point. I mean, the administration, we're
going to revisit this in a moment, I will say though, we do know the administration now is providing arms even though they aren't publicly saying that they aren't. Gentleman, rest your heels for just a minute. We're going to be right back with more from Ben and Mark. But how much would you be willing to pay if someone you loved was held hostage? For most of us I should say, the answer is anything, right? Ahead you will see how a negotiator sets a price tag. You will learn if an expert believes the mother of an American hostage was right to record a personal plea to his captors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Ukraine and ISIS may be major fears abroad but at home there is a plague that kills Americans every year. Drug addiction. You'll hear the stories of grandmothers and sons addicted to drugs. How that affects families and what can be done to help them. That's coming up at the top of the hour.
Well, the White House always says, we don't negotiate with terrorists. But that rule is put to the test when it comes to hostages held by Islamic militants overseas. This week, journalist Peter Theo Curtis came home nearly two years after he was abducted in Syria. His family and the U.S. government say they did not pay to free him, but another country like Qatar may have. With other Americans still held overseas, the debate isn't over about whether to pay ransom.
Karl Penhaul looks at how it's done.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The life of this American citizen, Obama, depends on your next decision.
PENHAUL (voice-over): It's a brutal threat to kill journalist Steven Sotloff. A moment of terror.
DUNCAN BULLIVANT, KIDNAP AND RANSOM SPECIALIST: Operationally we've got a big footprint.
PENHAUL: But for kidnap and ransom specialist, Duncan Bullivant, it's also a moment of hope -- what he views as an opening bid in a possible negotiation. Over more than a decade he says he's help cut hostage deals with rebels and drug gangs in Latin America, as well as Islamist radicals in Iraq and Africa.
BULLIVANT: I may find that dealing with a group who are completely around the twist and actually hard -- very, very difficult to negotiate with. You may find you're dealing with a group who are totally inexperienced, out of their depth, and are playing a game which they think they're meant to be playing. And then you get the hard professionals.
PENHAUL: ISIS say they killed another American reporter, James Foley in retaliation for U.S. bombing raids. But a month after Foley was snatched in Syria in 2012, his boss at the "Global Post" says ISIS demanded a ransom for more than $130 million -- a startling number to Foley's employer.
PHIL BALBONI, "GLOBAL POST": We thought that something in the range of $5 million was probably the right amount to pay for the ransom.
PENHAUL: While officially denied by the French and Spanish governments, it is widely reported that both countries have paid ransoms in exchange to free their citizens. But in the case of Foley, negotiations quickly collapsed and Balboni doubted whether the ISIS negotiation was serious.
Tough as it sounds, Bullivant says kidnapping for ransom has become a global business.
BULLIVANT: I don't want to diminish the shocking impact this has on -- the devastating impact this has on families but it's a bit like buying a house. You know, if somebody wants to sell a house and you're interested in buying it, there are asking for 10 times the going rate in that particular street, you're not going to enter into a negotiation.
PENHAUL: On Wednesday, Sotloff's mother made a televised appeal, addressing ISIS's commander, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, by name.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHIRLEY SOTLOFF, MOTHER OF STEVEN SOTLOFF: As a mother, I ask your justice to be merciful and not punish my son for matters he has no control over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PENHAUL: Such an appeal, says Bullivant, is an excellent strategy.
BULLIVANT: It's about talking. It's about keeping those lines of communication open at all costs. It's about being calm. It's about, really time and time again, reminding people that we're dealing with humans.
PENHAUL: A reminder that not only a ransom but also human lives are at stake.
Karl Penhaul, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: When the stakes are so high saying no to a ransom demand is a painful choice but is it the right one or should we be willing to do anything to bring Americans home? We'll be talking about that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: The U.S. does not negotiate with terrorists, except when it does. Don't forget Bowe Bergdahl, the Army specialist was freed by the Taliban in exchange for five of their leaders detained at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Was that ransom or was it a defensible trade for a prisoner of war?
Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill joining me once again.
To you first, Marc.
Do you see that in the same way, the Bowe Bergdahl situation versus Steven Sotloff, who ISIS is threatening to kill in Iraq and Syria?
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think they are absolutely different. Whenever someone is at war and they make a commitment to defending the nation we have to do everything to do to get them back. This was a case of returning prisoners as we draw down and out of a country. What we saw a swap. He may have not been a favorable swap. Five for one was a little troublesome to many. But ethically, it's different.
Let me say it really quickly. With ISIS, giving money to terrorist organizations is bad for two reasons. One, because it keeps the cycle going of kidnapping because it makes it profitable. And, two, we become an underwriter of al Qaeda and ISIS whenever we do it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's a nonnegotiable circumstance, in my opinion. You cannot negotiate with terrorists because as soon as you do --
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Why -- where do you fall?
FERGUSON: I don't think you ever negotiate with terrorists.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: What about trade issues?
FERGUSON: I don't even thinking trading is a good idea.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: The four-to-one is proof that it doesn't work. I mean, if it was one to one or something, but what is it next time? Is it five to one?
And the other issue is this: It makes American lives more valuable around the world. And the reason why we've done such a good job of not being targeted in general compared to other nations that do negotiate with terrorists is because the theory was if you got an American citizen they'll probably come and try to kill you to get them back, but they're not going to pay you for them. So when you start doing this, it makes an American life worth that much more, whether it be a civilian, whether it be a guy in a uniform. At this point, I think is thinks every American we get is valuable to us. And if we can give them money, whether it be through Qatar -- they don't care where the money comes from as long as they have an American to negotiate for. They don't care if it's any other nation in Middle East that's paying the money, it's we're now raising the money up there.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: And that's a bad place to be --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: Because we made a commitment. The G20 (ph) basically made a commitment in 2013 to not negotiate with terrorists.
FERGUSON: And you got to stick with it.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: And so far, only the United States and U.K. have held their end of the bargain. Everyone else does it, so there's still a market for it. That's why Europe is becoming a target --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: One of the reasons I feel safe is because I do know that -- my life is not worth that much because -- on the black market of terrorist because I'm an American. I actually find security in that. If I'm from another country and they say, where are you from, and they know that you're from a place that pays ransom, I'm much more -- there's much more likelihood I'll get taken.
KEILAR: OK, sure.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Let's talk about this. What about other countries? So you have an American released, U.S. doesn't pay ransom, but now folks are saying that Qatar paid ransom.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Yeah, and that's a problem.
KEILAR: What difference does it make, is my point?
LAMONT HILL: There's not much difference because, as Ben said, ISIS understands the calculation. They know the money is coming from somewhere. They don't care whether it comes from the U.S. or Qatar. They don't care where it comes from. But again --
KEILAR: You're saying it's all the same.
LAMONT HILL: It's all the same.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: A million dollars is a million dollars in the hands of the terrorists. LAMONT HILL: But that's because it just keeps the cycle of kidnapping going but because it also underwrites the atrocities. Right now, ISIS has about $2 billion, right? A lot of it from taking over Mosul, some of it from antiquities in Syria. But a lot of it --
KEILAR: And banks in Mosul.
LAMONT HILL: Banks in Mosul. But also from kidnapping. They are asking for $130 million --
KEILAR: But that was really seen as not really genuine.
LAMONT HILL: That's an absurd number.
FERGUSON: But if you go for $130 million, what about $140 million? Let's say you get $40 million or $30 million or $20 million or $15 million, $15 million or $5 million of $1 million for terrorists --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- buying things on the black market is incredible. ISIS -- one of the things we have to come to terms with, and this White House needs to acknowledge it is, ISIS is the most well-funded terrorist organization that this world has ever seen at this point in time. They have funding that al Qaeda only could have dreamed of. And it's a reality because they've taken over areas in places where they were able to get their hands on, like you said, billions of dollars in money.
LAMONT HILL: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: And al Qaeda never dreamed of that type of cash.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: They were running on a shoestring budget. These guys have the ability to buy pretty much whatever they want on the black market.
LAMONT HILL: The worst thing you can do with ISIS right now is offer them economic support.
FERGUSON: Absolutely.
LAMONT HILL: I think it's bad practice -- and I hate that word --
(LAUGHTER)
But it's bad practice and bad form but it's also dangerous.
3: Before I let you go on this topic, let's talk about the human element of this. If you are talking to a parent, or if this is one of your brothers or sisters or your father or mother, then what do you say?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Here's the thing. That's the difference. If my family -- if I'm captured and my family -- I expect my family not to think logically.
LAMONT HILL: Exactly.
FERGUSON: I expect the government to think logically. If my parents want to go rogue and get me back or if I have a child and go rogue, I understand it because you're not in a logical place.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Would you go around and try to fundraise --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I don't think you can get enough money to fundraise for that.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: I would think I would get Madonna to get me. I'd get somebody like that.
(LAUGHTER)
Angelina or someone like that.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- being liberal, you have more friends with cash.
(LAUGHTER)
LAMONT HILL: Exactly.
FERGUSON: One percenters over here.
LAMONT HILL: I would grab as much support as I could, but you don't make public policy from that stand point.
FERGUSON: Agreed. Don't make emotional decisions in that scenario. For the White House, you have to stick to your guns. We do not negotiate with terrorists.
KEILAR: All right, Ben and Marc, stay with us.
Imagine seeing a man grab a woman's stomach and tell her, "Don't lose too much weight, I like my women chubby." Now, imagine, you're seeing that in the U.S. capitol between two Senators. One Senator says that is what happened to her. Pretty unreal, right? These are the people that we send to Washington?
Ben and Marc -- and, you know, I'm going to weigh in, too.
(LAUGHTER)
We're go doing have our say on this ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: You'd think sexual harassment is a thing of the past in the U.S. capitol, but you won't believe the stories that New York Senator Kirsten Gillibrand tells in her new book "Off the Sidelines." In an excerpt posted online by "People" magazine, she says that an older male colleague told her, quote, "Good thing you're working out because you wouldn't want to get porky." And on another occasion, after she dropped 50 pounds, one of her fellow Senate members approached her and squeezed her stomach and said, "Don't lose too much weight now. I like my girls chubby." Gillibrand told "People" she wasn't even that offended. Quote, "It was all statements that were being made by men in their 60s, 70s. They had no clue that these are inappropriate to say to a woman who was pregnant or a woman who just had a baby or to women in general"
Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill joining me once again to talk about this.
OK, it's 2014 here.
(LAUGHTER)
LAMONT HILL: Yeah.
KEILAR: I mean, what do you think, Marc?
LAMONT HILL: It's --
KEILAR: Welcome to the future.
LAMONT HILL: Exactly.
KEILAR: Come on.
LAMONT HILL: Part of it is that the Senate is filled with really old guys, and that's not to make an excuse for it, but it's like an old frat house. It's an episode of "Mad Men." That's just how they function. But women in jobs all around the country experience it, often in more subtle ways, but every single day, no matter what industry.
FERGUSON: Here's my think. If you're going to go this big in your book, you got to go all the way and name the names!
(LAUGHTER)
LAMONT HILL: You can't name names.
FERGUSON: You can't write this stuff -- but, I mean, part of me is, like, you write this and then you won't tell us who said it, but you want me to read your book? If you're going to do this --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: What if it's a partisan thing?
FERGUSON: -- you need to go all out -- I don't care.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: No, no. What if it's your party? You want to lose Senate seat or health care --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm totally fine with it.
LAMONT HILL: Of course, you are.
FERGUSON: If a Republican came out and said something like this -- my thing is, if you have the guts to write about it, have the guts to name names.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: I can almost guarantee you that it is bipartisan.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: That's my point. I'm not afraid of it. Like --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- give me the names.
KEILAR: -- I would say there are a couple of things going on. I do think it's generational, that's true. In a way, the capitol is a time capsule. You go back in time. There's a certain chivalry that might come along with the 1950s and also a sexism that comes along. But I would say it's manglo-maniacal, right? There's a lot of people who have power. They have a lot of people around them telling them anything goes, you're so great, and things pop out of people's mouths that have no --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: But here's my thing, if she wants to stop it -- it depends on the reason why she wrote it. Is she writing it to sell a book or is she writing it to change it? If you want to change it, you need to come out and say who said it to you.
LAMONT HILL: That doesn't change anything.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Here's why. If you're a guy on Capitol Hill and all of a sudden this Senator that comes out and says this in this way, are you not going to sit back and go I'm sure going to watch what I say now because down the road it may come out that I said "X," "Y," or "Z." LAMONT HILL: Let me be clear.
FERGUSON: I think they would be careful.
LAMONT HILL: I think she has every right to name names. Everybody that does that should be named.
FERGUSON: Absolutely.
LAMONT HILL: But I don't fault her for not doing it. I think the bigger question is --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: But she wrote about it.
KEILAR: She's not that upset about it.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Is part of it maybe that she's saying, hey, politics -- and let's admit it, it is very much a man's world.
LAMONT HILL: Yes.
KEILAR: Is she saying it's rough-and-tumble and I can play in it, hello.
LAMONT HILL: I think that's exactly what she's trying to do.
KEILAR: So maybe that's really what she is getting at?
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Was she trying to inspire young girls to go to Capitol Hill and serve or was she writing the juicy stuff that she knew would sell the book but didn't have the guts to name names?
LAMONT HILL: Wait a minute. She gets sexual harassed, whoever comes in, whether or not she has courage, I don't that's the right conversation. I think the right conversation is, why does the Senate function this way.
KEILAR: Could we get past -- I don't think if she named names, I don't think -- I don't know how much that would change things. Is part of it though --
FERGUSON: I think it would.
KEILAR: Well, do you think that part of it, though, is that this is her making an appeal to women, let's talk about the politics behind this.
FERGUSON: Yes. Sure.
(CROSSTALK) LAMONT HILL: I think so, too. It's the same thing Hillary Clinton does and the same thing that we'll see from Elizabeth Warren. The idea that I am a strong woman that has to navigate a messy gender workplace and gender environment to do the work that I do. I think it unites women and gets her a lot of support. I don't mean to make it sound like it's cynical politics. I think she's doing the right thing. But she's definitely appealing to women.
FERGUSON: I think this gets down to the point it is. It's a smart political move. You have a lot of Americans not in great shape. A lot of Americans are overweight. And a lot of Americans deal with weight issues their whole life.
(LAUGHTER)
KEILAR: Yeah.
FERGUSON: And so if you write this --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: -- the porky lobby?
FERGUSON: Yeah, how dare they treat her this way and how dare them say this. And I like her for coming out and saying this, even through she didn't give me any names.
KEILAR: Chris Christies. Is it fair game, the weight issue?
FERGUSON: You're a guy, yes. If you're a girl, no. Let's be honest.
LAMONT HILL: I don't -- I've been known to make a Christie joke or two.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
FERGUSON: You would never do it towards a woman. You know you wouldn't.
LAMONT HILL: I wouldn't do it if Chris Christie were nice, to be quite honest. There's more about that than you think. But here's the thing. My announcement of Chris Christie, we have the right to ask him or anyone else, will Americans base on this person based on this criteria, shallow or not. But to make fun of his weight, to mock him, to fat-shame him is wrong. And that's why I stopped doing it.
KEILAR: Is it a health issue?
LAMONT HILL: That is a pretext for making fat jokes.
FERGUSON: Yeah. That's a disclaimer.
(LAUGHTER)
That's a disclaimer for making fat jokes.
LAMONT HILL: Exactly. I'm really worried about your health.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: -- Chris Christie on "Saturday Night Live" is not worried about his health.
(LAUGHTER)
LAMONT HILL: Exactly.
KEILAR: He handles it well, though. I will say that. And he uses it maybe as a positive.
(LAUGHTER)
Hang in there with me, you guys. We will be back with more.
And we'll be right back from break in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Michael Sam's NFL dream is over for now. The first openly gay player drafted by an NFL team was cut earlier this afternoon. He was a long shot to make the team. He could still be picked by another squad besides the St. Louis Rams.
Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill joining me once again.
Do you think it matters, do you think, Ben, if he never plays another down in a regular season?
FERGUSON: To him it does. In the grand scheme of things --
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: For sure, is it enough that he was just drafted?
FERGUSON: It was enough that he was drafted because he got drafted and he got a lot of attention. But at the end of the day, I want sports to be about the player and the best player. I promise you, Jeff Fisher was rooting for him. You could tell. I think the organization was probably rooting for him. It was going to be good for them. They're selling a lot of jerseys. They were going to be people watching the St. Louis Rams that never would have watched them before this year in TV ratings, which helps them with TV contracts. But they decided he wasn't good enough to stay on their team and they made a football decision. And they -- I applaud them for drafting him. But at the end of the day, it came down to his talent and ability, and it wasn't there. Maybe another team will get him though.
LAMONT HILL: I think it did come down to a football position. He got beat out by a better guy.
FERGUSON: He got beat out by a better guy. LAMONT HILL: He got beat out by an undrafted guys but a better guy. But the fact that he was drafted so low had nothing to do with him being gay. A lot of experts are saying that. We've have coaches and --
KEILAR: Seventh round.
LAMONT HILL: Yeah, seventh round.
FERGUSON: Well, see, I --
LAMONT HILL: Hold on. We've had coaches off-the-record and former coaches say I would not draft him or have him because he would be a, quote, "distraction." I think this particular situation might be purely football based. But the fact that he won't get a chance across the teams. He's good enough for an NFL roster.
FERGUSON: But anybody can get him. Anybody can. I mean, it goes by the list.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: That's my issue, the distraction piece.
FERGUSON: But I think there are some people that are going to look at his ability. There are a lot of really good guys. Look at the guy taking his spot. Undrafted. There are some people said he probably did get drafted because he was gay and it was going to be a great story for a team. There was lot of good players.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: More like third round and he went seventh.
FERGUSON: Well, it depends on who you talked to. Most scouts said he was not going to go third round. He just wasn't at the level and ultimately that's why he got cut today.
KEILAR: I want to talk to you about the fashion police being on patrol this week --
LAMONT HILL: Oh.
KEILAR: -- in Washington, D.C. It's really right for the pickings in Washington sometimes.
LAMONT HILL: Yeah.
KEILAR: We're not always the most fashion-forward crowd compared to other cities.
LAMONT HILL: Very true.
KEILAR: But the president came out addressing reporters on Thursday and he was wearing this tan suit. He got a lot of guff for this. There were Twitter handles that were the suit people were making fun of it.
(LAUGHTER)
FERGUSON: Wear a dark-colored suit when you're a dude, simple.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: No.
FERGUSON: Or go out for the all-out seersucker.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: You want him to come out talking about domestic terrorism in seersucker?
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: Are you serious?
(LAUGHTER)
FERGUSON: I'm saying, it's got to be -- there's a summer suit or you stick with the dark one.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Question here though, was it fair?
LAMONT HILL: No.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I think we've got a lot of other things to worry about than his suit.
LAMONT HILL: I love making fun of presidents, no matter who they are. I love making fun of politicians. Because of the suit was bad --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: That was six years ago, you loved making fun of the president.
(LAUGHER)
LAMONT HILL: No, no, no. I still make fun of them. I think the cut of the suit was bad. It looks like he bought it six years ago and he obviously fits it very differently now. Make up for that. But the color, I think it's actually cool. Most politicians can't dress, that's why they wear blue suits and blue ties.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: He's even said he doesn't like making the choices about what he wears. But, for instance, Peter King, a Republican congressman, yesterday, said it was a metaphor, he felt, for his message, that he didn't feel like it conveyed the seriousness of what the president was talking about.
LAMONT HILL: Oh --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: This is what I'll say. No matter what --
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: This is the one perk for him right now. At least he didn't look like Mr. Rogers or President Carter with a cardigan. So he's doing just fine.
LAMONT HILL: Or Bobby Jindal.
FERGUSON: Yeah. He will never go down as the guy never wearing a sweater while addressing the nation.
LAMONT HILL: For the record, Ronald Reagan wore tan suits all the time.
FERGUSON: But he was also an actor and he looks good in them.
LAMONT HILL: He was a president.
FERGUSON: Exactly. All of the above.
LAMONT HILL: No, that's what I'm saying. There was a time where presidents were more stylish and could get away with this. We had a string of presidents who weren't very good dressers so they wore blue and red ties and black and blue suits.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: What about the flip side? We've heard Hillary Clinton say -- and this is very true -- she felt so under scrutiny during the 2008 election for what she was wearing. And now I think some women look at this and kind of take a little bit of perverse pleasure going, you know what, it's time the tables got turned.
FERGUSON: Yeah.
LAMONT HILL: Yeah, that's absolutely true. Sarah Palin told me the say thing. They got scrutinized for every single thing they wore. It's totally unfair and unreasonable. I don't feel sorry for the president for getting teased. He is the sitting president. But it is petty. I would be more upset about the Syrian policy than the suit he wore announcing the Syrian policy.
FERGUSON: I think it's more -- It's more of the issue of like he walked out and he was like, hey, got a new suit on, different color. Oh, and by the way, we don't have a plan yet on ISIS.
(LAUGHTER) LAMONT HILL: Oh, yeah, right.
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: You think it was a distraction? Maybe if I wear a tan suit, they'll talk about that instead?
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Do you think on messaging it's important though for a politician -- this may fall to women, not necessarily women, not necessarily men. They tend to fall back on dark-colored suits. Do you think a politician should say, what am I conveying by what I am wearing?
LAMONT HILL: We need to change that.
FERGUSON: They all know this. We all know this. When you come out, everything you do, when you're president of the United States of America, is scrutinized, whether it's walking out and talking about the beheading of an American not wearing a tie, it's going to be talked about. Do I think it should matter as much as it does? Probably, not. But in the grand scheme of things, everything is managed when you're running for president. And everything you wear is managed when you're running for president.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: So when you are president --
(CROSSTALK)
LAMONT HILL: But my point is, I'm president and you can't get rid of me. I'm in my last two years of office. I can wear --
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: You're past having to be elected.
LAMONT HILL: Yeah.
KEILAR: Ben, Marc, thanks so much to both of you. This was a very spirited and fun debate.
(LAUGHTER)
I'm Brianna Keilar, in New York.
