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Warning of "Point of No Return" in Ukraine; U.S. Conducts 5 Airstrikes Near Mosul Dam; Michael Sam Cut By NFL's St. Louis Rams; Joan Rivers in Serious Condition; ISIS Now Considered Significant Threat Now; Debate on Gun Control; Joan Rivers In "Serious" Condition
Aired August 30, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Brianna Keilar.
We are watching two big international stories this hour.
ISIS militants on the move in Iraq and fears Ukraine has reached the breaking point.
European leaders meeting today, warning that if a political solution isn't found soon, the country could reach the, quote, "point of no return". This as the Ukraine port city of Mariupol braces for the worst.
And we have new developments in the U.S. push to defeat ISIS in Iraq. The U.S. military has conducted five new air strikes against is militants near the Mosul dam. The U.S. military says the strikes destroyed an ISIS fighting position, as well as an armed vehicle, weapons, and that it significantly damaged an ISIS building. The U.S. military is conducted a total of 115 airstrikes against ISIS in Iraq.
All of this coming as Secretary of State John Kerry has written a strongly worded op-ed in "The New York Times", calling for more nations to help the U.S. defeat ISIS. Kerry writes, quote, "A much fuller response is demanded from the world. No civilized country should shirk its responsibility to help stamp out this disease."
And right now, people in the U.K. have fresh worries about a possible ISIS attack. Britain has raised its threat level to severe. Intelligence officials are particularly worried after a British voice appeared on the tape showing the brutal execution of American journalist James Foley.
Our Karl Penhaul -- Karl Penhaul, pardon me, is getting reaction on the streets of London.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Britain is on the high alert, the government is telling us that a jihadi attack is highly likely. So, we've come down to the streets of Central London to see if there are signs of panic. This is King's Cross Train Station, one of the busiest in the country. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone just gets on with their everyday life.
Whatever happens happens. You don't think every time you get on the train anything is going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's just trying to make people scared, really. That's all it is. Make people are scared and then -- then they'll -- they're more likely to support something if the government then eventually did try to go into Iraq.
PENHAUL: Britain's no stranger to home grown terror plots. In 2005, in a so-called 7/7 attacks, four suicide bombers killed 52 people in London.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you let things like that rule your life, you'd never do anything. So, although, you're aware of it and you hope that the government is on top of the situation, you just take it as they are.
PENHAUL: The police chief is saying they will step up patrol in public places like train stations, airports, and tourist hot spots, like here in Trafalgar Square. Saturday afternoon, this was no sign of that except near the one that's getting married. This group of young women out on a pre-wedding hen party dressed as British Barbies.
But Cameron's pledge to crack down on radical Islam is living some leaving uneasy, fearing that it could turn into a witch hunt against all Muslims.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's like the movies, alien invasion, the first thing people think about is attacking them. That's exactly the same with us. They don't know why they do it or what it is that we want from this, so they go and attack it because they don't know it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there is radicalism, but that exists in every community. Not just Islam, but Islam has been focused and used as a scapegoat.
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We're in the middle of a generational struggle.
PENHAUL: Mr. Cameron said he could announce new measures to parliament this week. No word on how long the heightened terror alert could last.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KEILAR: Karl Penhaul joining me now.
You know, Karl, it's pretty interesting when you listen to people there in your peace, a lot of them are not getting too worked up about this, but Prime Minister David Cameron is set to unveil some tough new terror policies like seizing suspects' passports tomorrow perhaps.
Do you think that that's doing to create more concern amongst people in London? PENHAUL: Well, certainly as you see, Brianna, there really -- it
doesn't scare what the prime minister is telling us in an alarming terminology he's using, describing this as a generational fight, saying this is one of the worst threats that Britain has ever faced. It doesn't square with the mood on the street at all.
What is likely to happen when parliamentarians where British lawmakers get back after their summer break and that will be on Monday now, that Prime Minister Cameron will put to them a series of measures that he thinks would be useful to combat what he calls radical Islam, the poisonous ideology of extremism, to tackle not only those potential jihadists heading out to Iraq and Syria and there, he suggests putting a travel ban on them so they can't do there in the first place.
But all those -- also those returning and there he is suggesting, as you say, withdrawing their passports as they get back. And so, he's going to ask lawmakers if they agree with that and if they have any other measures to propose. But that would also presuppose that you can actually detect these people as they head out or as they come back.
And there are other opposition lawmakers in Britain that say the intelligence services really do not have a good handle on that because the suspects don't fit the normal profile liaison necessarily radicalized disinfected young men but in some cases some from good middle class families. And so, he says that all those people are not on the database of the usual suspects, Brianna.
KEILAR: Yes, and they think someone certainly will be able to fall through the cracks.
Karl Penhaul in London -- thank you.
Now, the U.S. is also sounding the alarm over ISIS. You can expect to hear much more about the terror group in next week's NATO meeting in Wales. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel and Secretary of State John Kerry will be there to try to drum up support among European countries for an international coalition to confront ISIS which Kerry calls a, quote, "cancer".
In another portion of his op-ed in today's "New York Times", Kerry write, quote, "already, our efforts have brought dozens of nations to this cause. Certainly, there are different interests at play but no decent country can support the horrors perpetrated by ISIS and no civilized country should shirk its responsible to help stamp out this disease."
Let's bring in now CNN national security analyst Bob Baer and CNN enforcement analyst Tom Fuentes.
Bob, to you first. How difficult is it going to be to get global cooperation to take on ISIS? Can this be done?
BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think we can get global cooperation from the British, the French, and so forth. The problem is really in Iraq because we have a terrorist state, the Islamic State. The real information, real intelligence to be gotten is in Anbar province in Iraq, in Eastern Syria.
We need the cooperation of the Sunni Muslims in that part of Iraq and Syria to tell us who these people are and which foreigners are fighting with them. Without that help, it's always going to be a partial picture.
KEILAR: Tom, you know, some in Congress, they are calling for a more aggressive military response from the U.S. Even Secretary Kerry says airstrikes alone won't be enough. That was really the take away from his op-ed today.
Do you think that U.S. ground troops may be the answer and also that just seems like a complete impossibility when it comes to the will of the U.S. public?
TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, I think it is just about a political impossibility to get the American public to want to commit ground troops again and get bogged down for the next 10 years there.
On the other hand, ISIS is growing. And I think that, you know, a lot of political leaders in this country have been crying wolf for 10, 12, 15 years and the problem is now we have a wolf and nobody wants to address it or believe it. And just kind of shrug it off.
You know, the Londoners that were just in the last segment, you know, most of those people talking were probably 10 years old, you know, when the attack happened in London last time, in 2005. So, you know, for a lot of people, they don't remember what it was 10 years ago in London or 13 years ago here on 9/11.
So, to be talking about al Qaeda or an al Qaeda type group and this group is, you know, different in that it wants to claim land, may possibly send people here to attack or just inspire people here to take on an attack who even don't travel there. You know, we're kind of like, oh, yes, we're heard this before, we've heard this many times. We had our color charts, we had our threat levels. You know, so what?
And I think that's the big problem is the level of apathy to try to address this by people that are just, you know, the mainstream public is a difficult challenge to overcome.
KEILAR: Sure is.
Bob, when you look at the region and you're looking at the neighbors of Syria and Iraq, how concerned are these countries in the Middle East? For instance, Saudi Arabia, how concerned is Saudi Arabia?
BAER: They're not concerned enough, because I can assure you this, the next target of them is to go south, to take Mecca and Medina, the two holy cities. That's what they want. If they want to establish a caliphate, they're going the need to destabilize Saudi Arabia.
Unfortunately, there's large segments of Saudi population who are sending money to ISIS and support and even fighters. This is ultimately a problem that's going to touch the Gulf, is ISIS continues on a year, two more years, it will destabilize the Arab countries in the Gulf. I think it's almost certain.
KEILAR: Tom, you mentioned one of the big concerns is American or Brits who are inspired by what ISIS is doing. As twisted as that seems that they would be inspired by it we know it is a reality. How do countries combat that? A lone actor who is drawing inspiration from ISIS?
FUENTES: I don't think you really can. There are so many thousands of jihadi Web sites where they get this information and decide to self radicalize as early as teenager, let's say. "Inspire" magazine, appropriately named, out of Yemen, just published the 12th issue this past May.
In that magazine, in all 12 magazines they tell people you don't need to travel to the war zone to learn how to shoot a gun or make a bomb or any of those sophisticated techniques. You can do it at home.
Drive your car on a sidewalk and mow people down eating lunch, hijack a tanker truck, drive into a school. We've had that threat. Derail a train that's got toxic material and blow up half of a small town.
So, you've got -- they've had issue after issue of suggestions for people that this is how you can kill other people, carry on. And, you know, that's going to happen.
KEILAR: It's horrible to think of. Tom Fuentes, Bob Baer, thank you for your perspective. Certainly alarming.
FUENTES: You're welcome.
KEILAR: Ukraine, let's talk about Ukraine. Ukraine says the photos do not lie. NATO images that you see here of Russian troops crossing over the border. Some European leaders fear the point of no return in this crisis is close. But my next guest says we have already reached it. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: President Obama spoke to Democrats at a fundraiser last night and he said he knows it looks like the world is falling apart right now but we'll get through it.
One crisis on what appears to be on that growing list is Ukraine. As we reported Russian troops are making their way into Ukraine now. They number in the thousands. And even though Russia's foreign minister denying accusations that Russian troops had crossed the border.
I asked "Politico" magazine contributor Michael Weiss if he thinks the conflict is reaching a breaking point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM WEISS, CONTRIBUTOR, POLITICO MAGAZINE: I think we've already reached that point, to be honest. I've been talking to Ukrainian officials and civil society activists all day here in Kiev. They -- as far as they're concerned, they're in a state of war with Russia. In fact, a few European leaders have come pretty close to calling this an invasion.
The Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt tweeted the other day that we are now seeing Ukrainian regular forces fighting Russian regular forces. There is, quote, "a word for this".
The president of Estonia yesterday, and keep in mind, President Obama is due in Estonia on Tuesday, for a meeting to reassure our NATO ally that the United States is behind it. The president issued one of the most robust statements calling this a, quote, "undeclared war."
And on Twitter, referring to it openly as an invasion. Again, that's the president of Estonia.
So, European leaders, especially those on Russia periphery and especially those who border Ukraine or certainly feel the might of the Russian military and the threat posed by Vladimir Putin are seeing this as a definitive act of war on European territory.
I mean, Russia, already seized Crimea and now sent over a thousand soldiers into east Ukraine. Many of those soldiers, by the way, are being killed and sent back in body bags to Russia. The parents of those soldiers don't know where their sons have been buried. These -- you know, the combat missions have not been disclosed publicly by Russia. This is a -- the definition of a dirty undeclared war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: European leaders have condemned Russia for what they call significant incursions into Eastern Ukraine and as tensions escalate, both the U.S. and European allies are threatening more sanctions.
I'm joined now by CNN commentators Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson.
Gentlemen, I wonder what you think about more sanctions, because at this point, it doesn't feel that even if Russia and if Putin and those close to him are feeling these sanctions, that it's really achieving anything.
What do you think, Marc?
MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN COMMENTATOR: I mean, the first thing you want is a diplomatic solution. That's always what you want. But what you're beginning to see in Europe is a turn. People like Angela Merkel who'd been more conservative on these issues and someone like say Estonia, have been saying we need to intensify sanctions.
I think people wanted U.S. sanctions. Ben, you and I talk about this weeks ago, I think getting European sanctions right now despite the costs they will have to ultimately pay are the ultimate pay. Of course, boots on the ground maybe a game changer, maybe the final end of this. But right now, sanctions are the key. BEN FERGUSON, CNN COMMENTATOR: I think you have to go big. I think
that's one of the things here. I think when you look at this strategy --
HILL: What does big mean, war?
FERGUSON: Big means you do the biggest stuff you can do with sanctions when you disapprove with this. You don't do it in this slow way.
One thing that we know about Vladimir Putin -- Vladimir Putin doesn't bluff. He says what he's going to do and he does it. He's a guy that understands basically response and power. He doesn't care about rhetoric.
And so, when we have these first set of sanctions, they weren't very good. They weren't very big. They were almost laughable because most people we sanctioned didn't have money or assets in America at that point, anyway. So, they were meaningless.
HILL: You're talking about U.S. sanctions?
FERGUSON: Yes, I'm talking about U.S. sanctions.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: It's the energy industry that needs --
FERGUSON: Here's what I'm saying. I think the president of the United States of America has to come out and lead in a very big and blunt way, because what is he asking for? I don't know. Europe doesn't know. My point is, is this, you may not be --
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: -- White House. This is a D.C. issue.
FERGUSON: I do say this. It's an issue of leadership, and if you come out and somebody has to be the leader of the world on this one. And it's always usually going to be the U.S.
HILL: Why would it be the president least at stake? Europe has the most --
KEILAR: Let me ask this --
FERGUSON: But we have always led on these issues. And so, we have to continue --
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: President Obama will be talking to a number of European leaders next week. Also, he will be visiting Estonia.
HILL: Yes.
FERGUSON: Sure.
KEILAR: We just saw the Estonian president calling this -- I mean, he's unequivocal. Undeclared war invasion. This is what the U.S. is not saying. Many Europeans are not saying.
FERGUSON: That's what I'm saying about leadership.
KEILAR: So, what does the president, what does he need to do and can he really get their help, Marc?
HILL: OK. So, two things. One, he need to name evil.
FERGUSON: Absolutely.
HILL: He needs to say this is a war.
FERGUSON: It's about time.
HILL: This is a war. It's a proxy. Whatever what you're going to call it, this is an actual war. This is not an unfortunate incursion. That's number one.
Number two, he needs to encourage the European Union to sanction.
FERGUSON: Totally agree.
HILL: Unequivocally and thoroughly and universally.
The problem is, they have a dog in the fight that we don't have. That's why I disagree with the idea that somehow --
KEILAR: They are reliant on Russian energy.
HILL: Yes.
FERGUSON: Here's the thing --
HILL: That's the problem.
FERGUSON: Sometimes being bold in a leader in this situation is where you have to go. Look at Estonia, look at Lithuania. They're on a situation where they're saying, the European Union is not going to lead. We need leadership of the United States of America.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: When was the last time that France ever gave real leadership on an issue like this?
HILL: Yes. But --
FERGUSON: If we're waiting on them, we're going to be waiting until you and I are really old men.
HILL: I've actually spoken up more in the last two days and probably has in the last months. I'm actually encouraged by what France is doing, what Germany is doing much more than, say, what Estonia is doing, which is sort of easy.
FERGUSON: I understand. But we're at a point now where we have a White House that, literally, right now, is not willing to even say that this is an invasion of a country which it obviously is.
HILL: They're calling it an invasion. They're calling it a war.
KEILAR: They are not -- the White House is not calling it an invasion. We will see how this evolves in the days and the weeks to come.
Hang with me. Marc, Ben, stay with me. We'll be back with this.
We do want to talk though about the first openly gay NFL draft pick, Michael Sam. Well, now he is looking for a new team after getting cut by the St. Louis Rams.
Pat O'Brien joining us to talk about it, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Two big stories that we are watching tonight, Michael Sam, the NFL's first openly gay player to be drafted. He got cut by the St. Louis Rams, and comedian Joan Rivers is in serious condition after going into cardiac and respiratory arrest during a throat procedure.
Joining me now legendary sportscaster Pat O'Brien.
I want to talk with you first ant Michael Sam, Pat, after this announcement. He tweeted, "The most worthwhile things in life rarely come easy. This is a lesson I've always known. The journey continues."
I mean, do you think the Rams' decision was surprising?
PAT O'BRIEN, LEGENDARY SPORTSCASTER: Well, I mean, couldn't have been surprising to Michael Sam because he was drafted in the final round, 249th out of 256 players.
Look, all along before the Internet goes crazy and everybody else on this thing, all along Michael Sam and we've automatic said he wants to be treated like every other player. Guess what? He was.
A lot of players got cut today. This is cut day. You don't oh we not everybody makes these rosters. There are only 53 guys.
But I tell you, we have not seen the last of Michael Sam. He had a tremendous preseason. He had six sack, 11 tackles, a team like Dallas which needs that position, the horrible on defense.
By the way, St. Louis, wasn't that great this year anyway. They lost a quarterback, Sam Bradford. This could be a blessing in disguise for him. I'm not going to guarantee anything. But I'm pretty sure that if he doesn't sign with another team, the rams might hire him back to be on their practice squad.
He's a great player. This was not about him being gay.
KEILAR: All right. You think the chances of him getting picked by another team though are -- what do you think? Do you think he ends up on the practice squad?
O'BRIEN: Absolutely. There's Jacksonville, Minnesota --
KEILAR: Yes.
O'BRIEN: -- New England Patriots, they all need help at that position. He fits into those systems. They could bring -- he was good. But he just doesn't fit into the Rams system. As I said, blessing in disguise for him.
KEILAR: Yes, might be a better fit for him somewhere else.
O'BRIEN: Yes. Exactly.
KEILAR: I want to talk to you about Joan Rivers. Her daughter says that she is in serious condition.
What do you make of this? Obviously, everyone is hoping the very best for Joan Rivers. Tell us about it from your perspective.
O'BRIEN: Well, she has two things going against her. One, her age. Although she -- I know Joan. She never acts her age, but she is an older woman, but any time you have an operation like this and complications, that's a problem.
She's gone from an induced coma, which by the way it settles the body down. It's not like a coma coma. They do that on purpose. She's gone from critical to serious. So, obviously, she's getting stronger and she's in there.
She's a tough woman. A very, very tough woman. And I'm not going the predict anything but anybody who gets a procedure in the hospital goes in with a chance of having something go wrong. It happened now to Joan Rivers. And from all I hear -- of course, we're all praying for her and hope to see her back on the stage. The night before from what I'm told she was never better on stage. We need her humor back in this country, especially now.
KEILAR: Yes, that's what we heard. And she is a fighter and we're all hoping that she fights certainly and pulls through this and is back to herself.
You have had, I'm sure, some experiences with Joan Rivers. Do you have any personal stories to share about moments that you've had with her?
O'BRIEN: Yes, I mean, she's never -- she's always outrageous on the red carpet and she's never picked on my clothing.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: I can always say -- I told her once, you dress great, age appropriate, Joan. And I think she gave me the finger. I'm not sure exactly.
KEILAR: I would not be surprised.
O'BRIEN: She's a lovely woman. She says what's on her mind. Not what she thinks people want to hear.
KEILAR: Yes, she sure does. Well, we're all really hoping for her, hoping certainly that she pulls through and soon. Pat O'Brien, thanks so much for being with us tonight. Really appreciate it.
O'BRIEN: Thank you, Brianna.
We're going to switch gears now. The ISIS threat garnering two very distinct responses from the top two leaders in the Western world: President Obama and British Prime Minister David Cameron. Each gave a speech within a day of each other, one threat here, two very different rep actions. We will compare Obama and Cameron, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: It is a tale of two world leaders, two speeches but one very real threat -- aggressive ISIS militants on the move across Iraqi and Syria and making vocal threats to the West while they're at it. It's up to the two topple leaders to respond, right? Well, they did it in very different fashions.
Notice a few things: the urgency, their entire -- even the length of the speech. Case in point, take a look at these two word clouds. They gave greater prominence to words that are heard more frequently in the speech.
First up, this is President Obama's speech Thursday at the White House, an assortment of words. Most of the words that stand out are neutral. They are less than aggressive. That is not by accident.
Look now at Prime Minister David Cameron during his speech on Friday, the day after. What are the biggest words that you see? Threat, terrorist, people.
In President Obama's word cloud, the word threat was very tiny, meaning it didn't play a large role in his speech at all.
Let's talk this over now with our CNN political commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill back with us.
Ben, we couldn't help notice some of the glaring huge differences here.
FERGUSON: Huge. Huge differences. I think it's a problem with this White House is that they always seem like on these type of issues he is not comfortable being a guy that has to deal with these terrorists. And I think that's a problem with this administration. I think you're even seeing it this week when the Pentagon came out and they said it in a very different way. I mean everybody knows ISIS is a real threat now. Everybody knows they're well funded. Everybody knows they have a ton of money and they're more well funded than Al Qaeda could dream of. They act like this is somehow diplomatically going to be resolved. It's not.
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Is he reflecting somewhat, maybe some of the feelings of the American people? They are a war weary people, certainly they have a less aggressive posture in general than you would.
FERGUSON: (INAUDIBLE) you have to call evil what it actually is and a threat what it actually is. And I don't think that means you're going to war.
MARC LAMONT HILL: OK. Well, you're mischaracterizing Obama. You have to admit.
FERGUSON: Look at the words.
HILL: The president has never said we're going to have a diplomatic solution to ISIS. That's just absurd. Sit down and talk (INAUDIBLE) and say, hey, let's talk? No. He threatened air strikes. He may say air strikes are insufficient. That's a reasonable argument but he's never said diplomatic response. The key here for the president, I think is unlike David Cameron he is in a war weary nation and quite honestly, to be frank about this, war is bad business for a democratic candidate or a democratic president or democratic leader entering a midterm election.
So he's trying to use a different language to prosecute the very same war or proxy war. Right now, it's a proxy war through Kurds, a proxy war through Iraqis in the north. And honestly due to some very strange (INAUDIBLE) in Syria and maybe even Iran. So the president has the right strategy but he's using the wrong language. When he said he don't have a strategy, bad idea.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Literally he walks up and says, I don't have a strategy. We don't have a strategy. That is what concerns me about this administration. And I agree with you. War is bad business for Democrats. But when you're dealing with terrorists and allowing them to take more land and take over more areas and have these places where there are these problems and to see a threat where David Cameron made it very clear, they're a threat to our country. Let's not act like they're just over there. ISIS fighters have American passports, they have British passports. They easily could be -
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Now, you're over stating the threat. Number one -
FERGUSON: I don't think I'm overstating the threat at all. You're not taking it seriously.
HILL: According to military experts, forget you and I, but military experts, would agree right now, I think on both sides of the aisle, that they don't have the power right now to defeat the Kurds in the north. They don't have the power right now to win in Iraq. They don't have the means to get to the west.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I don't care as much about that -
Let me say this. I'm not worried about that as much as I am worried, are they able to carry out terrorist attacks around the world in the way that Al Qaeda was in the past. And the answer was and Secretary Gates said, absolutely -- they are absolutely as much (INAUDIBLE).
HILL: So how do you fix that? Number one, you get at their funding sources which is not public funding but ready a private Saudi funding in addition to other nations -
FERGUSON: They're taking over banks and cities and towns.
HILL: (INAUDIBLE) take over Syria and you take over town. Most of that is fine. But also even taking over Mosul, gives them a target. It gives them a place to look. We know where they are.
KEILAR: But what about -- doesn't this all -- doesn't acting against ISIS come from where people are at, where the Brits are at, where Americans are at? I mean, we've been looking at the response from people in the UK and they say, they're just really not worried. Some of them think it's just fear mongering.
HILL: That's my point. David Cameron is playing on that fear mongering. I don't think it's necessary.
KEILAR: Is it fear mongering?
FERGUSON: No.
HILL: And for some nations it makes sense to talk tough and be like a cowboy. Here we need a much more thoughtful and strategic response. Again, things that have happened with James Foley, awful. We need to respond to it. The things that have happened to Yazidis in the north, awful. We have to respond to it. But how do you respond to it?
KEILAR: Is it part of the reason -
FERGUSON: This is the thing that concerns me that most is -- you don't fight terrorists by playing politics. David Cameron was being a leader that maybe people didn't want to hear in the UK.
HILL: But he's playing politics. We're going to slow the north. We're going to get them south? That's what he's doing.
FERGUSON: What he said was -- he said what was maybe unpopular. His country is war tired and weary the same way the United States of America is. That's part of the reason why he is in a position he is in right now is because he was not a warmongering type of guy is how they described him in the press in the UK. But I think he also understood that when you're the president -- or the leader of a country, there is a point where you do have to be the reality check for what ISIS is and you have to be honest to the people of your nation about what they are and what you're dealing with.
HILL: Right. That's my point, Ben. You're friending them as terrorist organization.
FERGUSON: They are.
HILL: They're also an insurgency. And so they're even more dangerous than Al Qaeda was.
FERGUSON: That's my point, which is why you need to think of the (INAUDIBLE) as a terrorist response and anti-terrorist response, -- although they are terrorists. Let's be clear.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: I got to say that because you'll say they're not terrorists. No, they're terrorists and they're an insurgency. That means the tactics and the strategy have to be more robust.
KEILAR: But the difference that we're seeing -- the difference that we're seeing between the approach from President Obama and Prime Minister Cameron isn't part of that -- right now, what is it a dozen confirmed, perhaps more, American passport holders fighting in ISIS?
FERGUSON: Yes.
HILL: Yes.
KEILAR: You're talking about hundreds of British passport holders. Aren't these two dealing with perhaps a different threat?
HILL: Yes.
FERGUSON: Let me just -
HILL: Because there are Brits, who are there, who are much more likely to carry out domestic attacks based on the training they've gotten and the work they've done with ISIS than we see in the United States.
KEILAR: Where is a domestic attack more likely?
FERGUSON: Yesterday. I went down at the 9/11 Memorial. Was it a 100 guys that committed that crime?
HILL: No.
FERGUSON: OK.
KEILAR: 19.
FERGUSON: If you've got 12 guys that have passports and a couple others that can figure out a way to get here.
HILL: The question was (INAUDIBLE).
FERGUSON: Let me finish this. ISIS is the most well funded terrorist organization we've seen.
HILL: Yes.
FERGUSON: They have made it very clear they want to kill Americans, they've made it very clear they want to kill the British. They've even warned us that they're going to come here.
HILL: No one is disputing that.
FERGUSON: Hold on. Let me say this.
HILL: No one is pro-ISIS. How do you defeat ISIS? You defeat them on the crowd, you fund Kurds, you go to Syria, you fund some of the opposition forces in Syria. You take away their (INAUDIBLE) sources.
FERGUSON: Why isn't Obama saying what you're saying? I agree with what you're saying. President Obama is not saying that.
HILL: But we agreed that Obama should have said more. But his tactics and his strategy is actually appropriate as opposed to David Cameron who is taking the George Bush era approach to anti-terror which will not stop an insurgency. Which will (INAUDIBLE) the very thing we try to stop. You cut off a head in Iraq, throw boots on the ground of U.S. forces and three more heads pop up. That's what we saw in 2003.
FERGUSON: Let me say this -- we tried the Obama strategy for six years and look where ISIS is now.
HILL: No, ISIS -
KEILAR: Gentleman -
HILL: George W. Bush.
FERGUSON: No, it doesn't.
HILL: Yes, it does.
KEILAR: We will continue this conversation.
HILL We were just about to agree.
KEILAR: I think you guys were about to like wrestle is what was about to happen. OK. Stay with me for just a minute. We are going to go on to another story that has everyone talking.
A nine-year-old girl accidentally shoots and kills an instructor at a gun range. What went wrong? And the debate over why this never should have happened.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: A shooting instructor is dead. The victim of a gun range accident, a nine-year-old girl surely is traumatized. And plenty of people, including many gun enthusiasts are asking, "why did a child have a submachine gun to shoot"? It happened at a gun range in Arizona that caters to Las Vegas tourists. Charles Vacca was accidentally shot in the head as he instructed the nine-year-old girl how to fire a uzi, a submachine gun. As she pulled the trigger the gun jumped out of her left hand toward Vacca who is standing beside her.
The range owner explained why the nine-year-old was allowed to shoot the gun.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAM SCARMARDO, GUN RANGE OWNER: Well, a nine-year-old gets an Uzi in her hand, within the criteria of eight years old to shoot firearms. We instruct kids as young as five in.22 handles and they don't get to handle the firearms but they're under the supervision of their parents and our professional range masters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: The incident even sparking comment from the former Secretary of state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: This incident with the nine-year-old girl is just heartbreaking and horrifying. I mean, first of all, what nine-year-old little girl is strong enough to manage an Uzi submachine gun, which is apparently what it was. You know, the kick, the effort to control it. I mean, that's just the height of irresponsibility, to say nothing of the choice of letting your child do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Let me turn now to my two CNN political commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill back with us. There's a lot of people talking about this tragic story, guys. It seems though to strike a very different chord than the normal gun debate. Why is that?
FERGUSON: Because you don't hand a nine-year-old young girl an Uzi and expect her to be able to handle it. This instructor, I think, I'm sorry, it costs his life.
KEILAR: This is not about guns.
FERGUSON: Yes. No, this is not a second amendment issue to me because that instructor should have never loaded that magazine with that many bullets because there is recoil. If you're going give that to anyone that is younger you should never have it all of the way maxed out. The other thing is he should have been standing behind her. He should have his hands on the gun. Because you know there's going to be muzzle rise on that gun. There were so many things that happened and you and I were talking about this. And we both agree. I hope everyone in America goes out there and makes it clear that they want this young girl to know she did not -- this was not her fault. This was an accident. You should have never been put in that situation. HILL: My heart goes out to her.
FERGUSON: You did not take this man's life.
HILL: I feel awful for the gun instructor.
FERGUSON: That young girl -- I hope she gets the counseling she needs and I hope people rally around her.
HILL: Not a second amendment issue but a gun control debate. Because many of us, and I believe in the second amendment. I believe people have the right to bear arms, I own a firearm. I hope other people do, exercise their right to. But the question becomes, at some point do we have to draw the line and say this extends beyond our right to bear arms. Some things are just unreasonable. I respect gun culture. I respect people who own guns. I respect people's rights to defend themselves and to defend themselves against an unjust government that arises. I agree with all of that. But a nine-year-old with an uzi is such an absurd circumstance and it might put in the spotlight the idea that, you know, some reasonable gun controls makes sense.
FERGUSON: And I don't even know -
KEILAR: The law said that this is what the gun range instructor was saying. Eight years old. That's the cutoff. There you have it.
HILL: It's a ridiculous law.
FERGUSON: They want to raise to 10 or 12 but let me say this -
HILL: You agree this is a ridiculous law, right?
(CROSSTALK)
KEILAR: Would it have made a difference if it was a 11-year-old girl?
FERGUSON: I don't think it's even an issue -
HILL: Physiological it will.
FERGUSON: -- of age as much as an issue you never hand a gun to someone that is is nervous or uncomfortable. You work them up a process and you find out where they're getting nervous. I would hand an uzi to my mom, I wouldn't hand it to my wife, and both of them have the physical capability, you know, with strength. But if you were nervous -
HILL: You're avoiding the issue though.
FERGUSON: I'm not avoiding the issue.
HILL: No nine-year-old girl should have an uzi.
KEILAR: What about a nine-year-old boy?
HILL: Or boy. I don't want to (INAUDIBLE) this debate but I'm saying physiological nine-year-old girl tend not to be strong enough to do it. Most nine- year-old boys are strong enough to hold an uzi. So why not have a law that nine-year-old boys and girls can't hold Uzis since we know they can't handle them. Would you agree with that law?
FERGUSON: I would say this -
HILL: No, would you agree with the law that a nine-year-old boy or girl should have an uzi?
FERGUSON: Let me explain. I don't think it's as simple as just saying an age. Because here's my concern. 11-year-old girl or 12 or 13 or 14 that don't need to have this gun. There needs to be a law of accountability for the ranges. First of all, the training there was awfully messed up because there's older people, there's middle aged people that might not hold that gun tight or it might shock them when it comes back up. And the same thing happened.
HILL: Gun control, that's my point. You're talking gun control. You're saying we should have laws to stop people who can't handle these weapons from having them.
FERGUSON: We do with a semi automatic weapons. You and I can't go out and buy one without getting a permit first, (INAUDIBLE).
HILL: Yes. But a nine-year-old girl can get a range and that's a problem.
FERGUSON: I shot fully automatic weapons and I shot them when I was young but I also had an instructor that wasn't, to be blunt, ignorant about how to deal with it. I had a dad that always stood behind me. He was in law enforcement. Always.
HILL: And you had an uzi?
FERGUSON: I had a fully automatic weapon when I was 11 years old.
HILL: That's not nine.
FERGUSON: Well, not far away.
KEILAR: Well, let's broaden this out though. This statistic I want to focus on. According to the Brady campaign to prevent gun violence, in 2007, there were more preschool age kids who were killed by guns than police officers who were kid in the line of duty. Now there are a lot more pre-school aged kids in the U.S. than there are police officers -
FERGUSON: A whole lot more.
KEILAR: But still, it's sort of when even that, you say, that is startling.
FERGUSON: And I'll say this. Kids can't go out and buy a gun. That's a kid --
KEILAR: These are accidents.
FERGUSON: Right. (INAUDIBLE
HILL: That's the point.
FERGUSON: And I think part of the responsible gun ownership is this. My dad made sure that when I was younger that there was no way I was going go look for a gun. He took all curiosity away from it. He took me to the range. He explained to me the weapon. He never had the ammunition where I could get it anyway. But I never went looking because he made me respect and understand this is a very powerful weapon. A lot of kids -
HILL: (INAUDIBLE) like alcohol. They'll be curious about it.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: I'm saying that when you have a child you make sure that they understand these are deadly weapons, that they're not toys.
HILL: Yes, but part of that is -
FERGUSON: Comes through education.
HILL: But giving a nine-year-old an uzi.
FERGUSON: I'm not saying give a nine-year-old an uzi.
HILL: I'm saying let's make it illegal to give nine-year-olds uzi.
FERGUSON: It is illegal to give nine-year-old an uzi for them at their house.
HILL: Even at the range. But let's move beyond the range. What I'm saying is that we need sensible gun control. Again, I want people to own weapons. I think people should own weapons. But let's draw some reasonable and sensible lines here. The fact that more people die in preschool age or early school age than they do in the line of fire as law enforcements suggests that these accidents are happening because we don't have reasonable regulation.
FERGUSON: But we don't have uzi accidents very often. I'll say this, if you had a responsible instructor in that situation, we wouldn't be talking about it right now.
HILL: Being responsible is not giving a nine-year-old an uzi.
KEILAR: All right. Mark and Ben thank you so much. Great conversation. Really appreciate it.
Just ahead, ISIS turns to social media to attract new recruits to its cause. We will talk to a former police informant to helped bust up a terror plot in Toronto about what makes the jihadist tick. We'll talk to him act that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEILAR: ISIS has succeed in astounding the world with its rapid advance across Syria and Iraq and its ability to hold territory. The fighters have been as disciplined as they are ruthless and they are incredibly adept at using social media to promote their agenda.
Mubin Shaikh was a former police operative working under cover with radical Muslims in Toronto. Thanks for joining us. And just tell me what the appeal of ISIS is to these young people who grew up in the west?
MUBIN SHAIKH, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: The appeal to these youngsters is that it's a sense of purpose, belonging, and a chance of being a hero. For a lot of these youth who are lost youth, disinfranchised, coming from abusive backgrounds, isolated, alienated, not feeling important enough, this group gives them all of that.
KEILAR: And it's interesting because we actually heard from the mother of one of these kids from Minnesota who was killed back in 2009 in Somalia who had joined up with extremists. She said that actually when he found Islam, she said it was like she had her son back. The brightness was in his eyes. He suddenly kind of got his stuff together. But then things took a turn. So, I guess how in a way do you sort of stop the turn toward extremism?
SHAIKH: This is very common. When, especially when somebody takes on the religious in a more overt form, you'll go through a phase of feeling really good about yourself, life is working out, everything is OK. And the problem is that people are looking for a quick fix and a lot of these individuals have become either born again Muslims, if I can use that term, or with converts who convert to Islam, they'll go through this initial phase.
But the inoculation part comes in the traditional study of Islam, being connected to scholars who have a tradition that go back to the prophet Muhammad (INAUDIBLE). This is the inoculation part of it.
KEILAR: Mubin, you spent a lot of time with people who were radicalized, helped break up a terror plot in Toronto. Give us some insight here, what's the ultimate goal of groups like ISIS?
SHAIKH: Well, ISIS has gone on to do what it claimed to do, and that was to establish an Islamic state. Had the term islamic state in its name for some time. They've done what they claimed to want to do. Secondly, the idea of an islamic state, the caliphate is something that's shared by Muslims, so what they're doing is appealing to Muslims to say, here it is, we've established the utopian state that you've been waiting for all this time.
KEILAR: Do they want to eliminate people who don't believe as they do?
SHAIKH: Yes, most definitely, they do. They've been killing more Muslims than they've been killing non-Muslims. So deviant a group that even Al Qaeda doesn't want anything to do with them. So they're uncompromising. That's their problem.
KEILAR: Where's the reaction that we're seeing from Muslims? As you say, they are killing more Muslims than non-Muslims. Where is that sort of strong reaction? Are we seeing that? Are we just not hearing it?
SHAIKH: That's right. I mean, we're just not hearing enough of it. Just a couple of days ago, I was participating in a press conference by the, I think it's called the Muslim Public Affairs Committee. There's been widespread condemnation of this group by every -- I mean, every major scholar in the world. There have been rallies in Europe, in Canada, we had two rallies against ISIS.
The more important thing is Imams are working, the Muslim community, in general, is working behind the scenes. You may not see them on the streets, on TV but they're working very closely with law enforcement, public safety officials and community cohesion is most important thing at this point.
KEILAR: Mubin, thanks so much for being with us. Really appreciate it.
SHAIKH: Thanks for having me.
KEILAR: Mubin Shaikh, former undercover jihadist.
And we have an update next from Ferguson, Missouri. Another officer who worked in the Michael Brown protests has turned in his badge. We'll have details ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: Michael Sam, the first openly gay players drafted by an NFL team, did not make the cut. St. Louis Rams announcing today Sam will not make the 53-player roster. He was a seventh-round pick, considered a long shot but played well in the pre-season and he could still be picked up by another NFL team.
Comedian Joan Rivers remains in serious condition in a New York hospital. She suffered cardiac and respiratory arrest during a throat procedure at a medical clinic on Thursday. Her daughter, Melissa, and grandson, Cooper, flew from Los Angeles to be at her side. Rivers performed at a comedy club on Wednesday night and fans say she was just her regular feisty self. Joan Rivers is, of course, 81 years old.
Severe weather threats for many of you this labor day weekend. CNN meteorologist Jennifer Gray has details.
JENNIFER GRAY, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Brianna, we are looking at a lot of rain across southwest Louisiana during the overnight hours and wee hours of the morning. More than seven inches of rain around Lake Charles. As we look into the next couple of days, about three to five inches expected in Central Louisiana. Six inches or more in southwest Louisiana, southeast Texas.
So a flooding concern definitely there for this labor day weekend. We are looking at the possibility of severe weather, slight risk for portions of the Dakotas on into Montana. Large hail, damaging winds the main threat. We're also going to be looking at that traveling farther to the east. By tomorrow, Minneapolis, Des Moines, included in that severe threat.
Some of our pick cities for your labor day weekend, Chicago dealing with rain today and Monday. High temperatures in the 80s. We'll be looking at the possibility of some much-needed rain across San Antonio. Temperatures staying very, very warm. Orlando, you'll be dodging afternoon showers as well. Gulf Coast looks nasty across much of it for your labor day weekend. Temperatures are going to be warm. Rip currents a concern there. Also Myrtle Beach dealing with some showers today and Monday. Brianna?
KEILAR: All right, thanks, Jennifer.
I want to show you this incredible video of a small victory in Iraq in the fight against ISIS. Iraqi soldiers today rescuing dozens of women and children from the besieged town north of Amarili this is north of Baghdad. You can see just the relief in the women's and the children's faces as they get aboard this Iraqi military helicopter. More than 15,000 people are still trapped there under siege by ISIS fighters. Iraq and Kurdish forces are advancing on the city.
And the fallout from questionable police actions in the aftermath of the death of Michael Brown. It continues after another officer retires. You may remember St. Louis police -- St. Louis County police officer Dan Page from this video that surfaced showing him ranting against President Obama. Page was also seen pushing CNN's Don Lemon during protests in Ferguson earlier this month.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, let's go.
DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So that's what's happening here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KEILAR: The lieutenant who threatened and pointed an assault rifle at protesters also retired this weekend. A third officer in a nearby city was fired after making what his chief called very inappropriate Facebook comments about the protests.
I'm Brianna Keilar in New York. "THE SIXTIES" begins right now.
