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Don Lemon Tonight

Joan Rivers on Life Support; Chilling Words From ISIS Terrorist; How to Fight Radical Recruitment

Aired September 02, 2014 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Great to be with you, Don. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

LEMON: Well, tonight, chilling words from the apparent executioner of American journalist Steven Sotloff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, just as your missiles continue to strike our people, our knife will continue to strike the necks of your people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Experts fear that terrorist -- that terrorist becoming a star who can recruit even more fighters. What will it take to stop him, Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: So, tonight, we have got a team of experts here to weigh in on the terror threat and the military response.

Also -- and this is going to be fascinating -- a former jihadist who knows how the terrorists work, how dangerous they really are, and how to break their mind-set.

LEMON: Plus, we will have the very latest on Joan Rivers on life support in New York's Mount Sinai Hospital. Is surgery more dangerous than we realize?

But we're going to begin with the very latest on the fight against ISIS. President Barack Obama is sending additional U.S. military personnel into Iraq. And that comes just after the release of that video that appears to show the beheading of American journalist Steven Sotloff.

CNN's justice correspondent, Pamela Brown, is in Washington for us this evening and also Karl Penhaul is in London.

Good evening to both of you. But, Pamela, I'm going to start with you first. I want to get

the breaking news in tonight. More U.S. military personnel headed to Iraq, what do we know about that?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Don, we're learning today the U.S. is sending over approximately 350 additional military personnel on the ground in Baghdad to provide additional security for the embassy and other diplomatic facilities over there.

And this brings the total numbers of troops who are providing diplomatic security in Iraq to 820. Don, a statement from the White House notes the troops will not be serving in a combat role upon arriving and that the White House was fulfilling a request from the State Department as the country continues to fight ISIS.

LEMON: And I want to turn now to that gruesome ISIS video, Karl. You have seen the video in its entirely. Describe what you saw.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, it's close to three minutes. It's a video with relatively high production values. At least two cameras appear to have been used in that video.

Steven Sotloff, the 31-year-old American journalist, appears once again in an orange jumpsuit, reminiscent of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, also alongside him, a man who seems very similar to the man who appeared in the James Foley execution video two weeks ago. He also speaks with the same distinctive British accent that experts say is a multicultural London accent.

That man once again talks to Obama and says, "Obama, I'm back." And then he concludes that video, warning Obama to back off and stay away. We see at some point a knife being passed across Steven Sotloff's throat, and then later pictures of his severed head on top of his body, a very difficult video to watch. And apparently ISIS making good on its threat that Steven Sotloff would be next if the U.S. did not cease its airstrikes on ISIS positions in Iraq -- Don.

CAMEROTA: And, Karl, it's Alisyn here. That video is obviously sickening. CNN is only going to play a small portion of the message, in part because it is clearly propaganda from this terrorist group. But here is the small portion that we will play so the viewers get a taste of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of your insistence of continuing your bombings in Amirli and in Mosul dam, despite our serious warnings, you, Obama, have yet again, through your actions, killed yet another American citizen.

So, just as your missiles continue to strike our people, our knife will continue to strike the necks of your people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So, Karl, what do we know about this executioner? PENHAUL: Well, from what we have already gleaned, and that

principally from the James Foley execution video two weeks ago, that experts, British intelligence experts, in fact, were saying 10 days ago they were pretty close to identifying who he was.

We haven't heard from them yet if they have in fact managed to identify who he is and where he is from. But he does speak with that pretty distinctive accent that language experts say is from a multicultural district of London. But beyond that, we really don't know publicly at least who he ISIS.

But, clearly, ISIS has put him up there for propaganda purposes, possibly also some people say to draw other foreigners to the jihadi cause, Alisyn.

LEMON: And, Karl, we want to hear now from Steven Sotloff himself. And we're showing this limited portion of his message, because we think it is very important to hear him and see how incredibly brave he is in his last moments. Steven Sotloff's last words on the video were clearly coerced.

And for all we know, we thought that he -- his life would be spared possibly if he cooperated. So here is a brief portion of his remarks on video. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN SOTLOFF, AMERICAN CAPTIVE: Obama, your foreign policy of intervention in Iraq was supposed to be for the preservation of American lives and interests. So why is it that I'm having to pay the price of your interference with my life?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Karl, how is that message being interpreted tonight?

PENHAUL: Well, there is no indication that U.S. administration is going to pull back from its campaign of airstrikes on ISIS positions, and also the indications that the U.S. may be considering airstrikes in Syria.

Also, in terms of Britain, one of the United States' major allies there, Britain has also said that it is considering arming the Kurdish militias, who we know are fighting ISIS, and also Prime Minister David Cameron has said he will consider giving more intelligence to the U.S. to help it in its bombing campaign.

And that brings a world of problems to the British prime minister because not only are we now faced with the fact that the executioner appears to be British, but also at the very end of this brutal video, a third man is brought forward, and that is at least, according to the ISIS propaganda video, a third Briton, British hostage, we didn't even know was being held hostage.

The clear implication there, if this campaign against ISIS continues, that Briton will be the next in line for execution, Don. LEMON: Karl Penhaul, Pamela Brown, thanks to see you both this

evening.

CAMEROTA: All right, Don, we want to bring in Rita Katz. She's the director of the SITE Intelligence Group, which tracks the online activities of terrorists organizations. And her organization first spotted this new ISIS video today.

Rita, thanks so much for being here. Explain how you came upon this video.

RITA KATZ, DIRECTOR, SEARCH FOR INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST ENTITIES: Well, we at SITE for over a decade monitor, search, and study the jihadists online.

You had me speaking here before, talking about the threat of the online recruitment and jihad network and infrastructure. We have been studying and monitoring the jihadists online, which also as they get more sophisticated, we follow their techniques and study them. And based on that, we could predict where they will be uploading their video.

After all, we have to remember that much of this propaganda is being posted online. Their releases are released online. So they have to be able to use certain locations to upload their releases before they are published.

CAMEROTA: And, Rita, do you know about this report that they did not intend to release this video today; somehow, it was leaked?

KATZ: I mean, we released it because we found it on the site that they prepare for a release.

I believe -- I strongly believe that it was supposed to be released today. And, in fact, they even posted a message on their social media official site, ISIS, that they will be releasing the video soon, and that was about very shortly after we released their video.

They were also going to release it in other additional languages, German and French and Russian. But we first released the video.

CAMEROTA: So, Rita, you study these guys. You have made your career out of following ISIS and similar groups. So how do you think the U.S. should be handling them?

KATZ: I think that it's very important to understand the online infrastructure.

We're all facing the problem of recruitment online. We're facing the problem of Americans, Brits, Australians, you name it, all over the world. Individuals are joining ISIS. The executer is British or at least has a British accent. Last week, we faced the problem of two Americans killed while fighting for ISIS.

And the list is long. And we are facing currently the problem of how are we going to stop the radicalization process? Unfortunately, though, I don't remember any comprehensive study that was made by the United States or other governments in trying really to understand what makes, what creates the radicalization, what is making individuals going to fight with these groups from the sense of what is happening online?

And the online component is so important. And as long as we will not pay attention to it, unfortunately, their recruitment will continue.

CAMEROTA: So you think we aren't paying attention to it? You think the U.S. is not paying attention to the online component or that we're not as savvy as they are?

KATZ: I believe that not enough is being done on the online network.

I believe that the bottom line is that we have been in this war for almost 14 years. And at this stage, al Qaeda is very strong and ISIS is very strong and almost every single country in the world is facing the problem. What we can say for sure is that the drone attacks were not enough, because we are having a serious problem that we need to study, and studying the Internet is extremely important.

I have testified before Congress years before, but 2007, 2008, and I said the problem of the Internet is going to be extremely important for every -- because the Internet breaks the borders. The problem over there suddenly becomes a problem over here.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KATZ: The video is released there. The situation that is happening in Iraq is affecting every single individual.

And among the problems we're having right now, not only that individuals from the United States and other Western countries are going to fight in Syria and Iraq. There are a lot that emotionally and ideologically supporting the group, and for various reasons, they can't leave, they can't go. And they are among us.

And as long as the Internet will not be faced very seriously, I think that the radicalization process will be coming in even more an important threat.

CAMEROTA: All right, we will be talking all about that for the next couple hours. Rita Katz, thanks so much for your insight.

She says that we have to beat them at their own game and become as savvy as they are online, which we're not yet.

LEMON: Yes.

I want to talk now to a woman who has known Steven Sotloff since they were both children. Danielle Berrin is a senior writer for L.A.'s Jewish Journal.

Danielle, thank you for joining us tonight.

I need to tell our viewers that you grew up and you went to school with Steven back in Miami. And when you first realized that the man in the video was your childhood friend -- when did you realize that?

DANIELLE BERRIN, JEWISH JOURNAL: It was a couple of weeks ago when I saw the video in which James Foley was beheaded, and I was instantly horrified.

Steven was my hero. He was traveling to the most dangerous, troubled places on the planet, so that he could report back stories of human suffering. He was someone who could not ignore pain and injustice. He felt responsible. And he had to respond.

LEMON: So, you know, you shared your first great class photo from your temple. And I want to show it here. You tell us that Steven Sotloff, there he is in the top second row from the right, and you're on the lower right. You hadn't seen him in 15 years.

But he actually reached out to you in 2010 to reconnect, right?

BERRIN: Yes, he did.

I think we had a kinship because he knew I was writing and he was writing and we were both journalists, although I certainty would not put myself in the same category as him. But he did reach out to me. And he would send me lovely notes. And he would send me articles that he was writing and send them from wherever in the world he was. He would always let me know when he was going into the Middle East.

And I know that was a passion of his. He really felt a responsibility to go there and tell stories of human degradation and pain.

CAMEROTA: And, Danielle, we're playing only a small portion of the hideous video that was released, in part to show Steven's stoicism at the hands of this barbaric act. And I know that you say that it was a trademark of his personality to not cower from danger.

BERRIN: No, I mean, what I remember of him -- and for some reason, he was one of those -- he was one of those kids who just made an impression on you.

I have such a powerful memory of him even from such a young age. He was goofy and playful and fun, and just so full of light and joy. And he was an incredible, beautiful soul and spirit.

LEMON: Have you spoken to the family tonight? And if so, or lately, how are they doing, do you know?

BERRIN: I have not spoken to the family. They have asked that people respect their privacy. I can only imagine the horrific amount of grief that they're feeling at this moment.

But I have been in touch with friends from home and certainly people from the synagogue that Steven and I both belonged to. And it's just the whole community is grieving. It's a terrible tragedy. And I think anyone, you know, who cares about freedom of expression and human life should be appalled and saddened by this really horrific act.

LEMON: Yes, barbaric.

Thank you very much, Danielle Berrin, a childhood friend of Steven Sotloff.

BERRIN: Yes.

LEMON: And as we have been talking about the family, you know the mom last week made a plea for the release of her son, and then all of the sudden this today.

CAMEROTA: She made a personal appeal to the head of ISIS, Baghdadi, hoping that, speaking as a mother, that it would change the course of fate. But, of course, it did not.

LEMON: It did not.

When we come right back, from ISIS to Al-Shabab, is the White House doing too much or not enough to battle terrorism? We will ask a man who has reported from hot spots around the world. That's Nick Kristof.

CAMEROTA: Also, how terrorists recruit young people in this country. A former jihadist is going to tell his personal story.

LEMON: And then Joan Rivers on life support in New York City, in a New York hospital. Are the surgical procedures we take for granted more dangerous than we realize?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: We want to update you on our breaking news tonight. President Obama is sending 350 additional U.S. military personnel back to protect the country's diplomatic facilities in Baghdad.

A statement from the White House says the forces will not be serving in a combat role.

LEMON: And, meanwhile, today, a State Department official says -- quote -- "stay tuned" for how the White House plans to battle ISIS. But are we running out of time to take action there?

Joining us now, a journalist who calls the apparent beheading of Steven Sotloff evil and heartbreaking. That's "New York Times" columnist Nicholas Kristof.

Thank you for joining us.

We spoke last week. You were hopeful that ISIS might spare the life of with the mother's plea. What did you make of today's...

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It's just heartbreaking.

For anybody who has reported out in the field like that, it just sends a shiver down your spine. And I hope we remember Steven Sotloff, not for that beheading video, not him in those orange coveralls, but for the extraordinary work he did from Yemen, from Syria, from Libya, from Egypt.

CAMEROTA: ISIS was very specific in their video message today to President Obama. They say that they were doing this basically in response to the airstrikes in Amirli that allowed the locals to be able to take back control of their town from ISIS. Does that mean that the airstrikes are working, that they are upsetting ISIS?

KRISTOF: I mean, the irony, the great irony here is that ISIS are the only people who seem to think that Obama has been particularly aggressive or effective in striking them.

And, I mean, clearly, those airstrikes have had some impact. I think it's also clear that they have been kind of marginal overall.

LEMON: But just today is the second beheading. Does that put more pressure? Because -- you heard the president say, we don't have a clear strategy. Does that put more pressure on him to come up with a strategy, that everyone understands what page we're on?

KRISTOF: I think it creates more political pressure for him to be tough, to show some kind of action.

And there is always the danger if you don't have a substantial strategy and you're under that kind of pressure, then one way of resolving that politically is you go drop some bombs on somebody.

LEMON: James Foley and Steven Sotloff, both journalists, but then David Haines is a contractor. Does that mean it's not just journalists who are under fire, so to speak, over there?

(CROSSTALK)

KRISTOF: No. And there are aid a workers under fire. There are an awful lot of people who are -- you know, who are trying to help others and go out there and who are now under -- in grave danger themselves.

My heart goes out to Sotloff in particular, because, frankly, we in journalism so often have dropped the ball. And you look at the kind of stories that we have in the media have been covering this year. It's been an awful lot of celebrity news, and now it's Jennifer Lawrence and this kind of thing.

It's people like Sotloff who are out there taking the risks, trying to keep the world focused on 200,000 people dying in Syria. And he dies for it.

CAMEROTA: But -- and we haven't brought up Sotloff before now because frankly we were told not to because it's dangerous. I mean, his family and the government we thought were working back channels. And they didn't want us talking about Sotloff.

Do we know if there are other Americans that are being held by ISIS?

KRISTOF: We believe there are other Americans being held by ISIS. My understanding is that there are.

LEMON: We're hearing tough words. Let's talk about David Cameron, tough words from David Cameron. He talking about even possibly confiscating passports, banning fighters from coming back to the U.K.

Does the Obama administration need to be bolder in its fight against these extremists? Does he need to be more like David Cameron and his response?

KRISTOF: Well, the most crucial thing we need to be doing is to gather intelligence on those American passport holders who are out there working with ISIS.

And the widespread belief is that they released 100 of those and maybe more than 300 of those, maybe not all working with ISIS particularly, but with Nusra Front and with other jihadi groups in Syria. And it's a little bit reassuring that some of those have been killed on the battlefield, because that indicates that ISIS is willing to use them as cannon fodder, rather than to wage attacks on U.S. soil.

But there -- obviously, there is the fear that somebody with a U.S. passport can be dispatched.

CAMEROTA: Well, can't we assume that they're on a watch list of some kind? David Cameron talked today about revoking those British passports when they have got some sort of intel that they have gone over to work for ISIS. Aren't they on a watch list of ours?

KRISTOF: To the extent we can track them, but the problem is, these are people of course who flew to Istanbul, and there are an awful lot of Americans who fly to Istanbul, and then from Istanbul then they migrate south in Turkey and you go to the border, and you cross.

And it's a chaotic border. Nobody is keeping track of passports there. I'm sure we know a lot of those people and we're able to track some of their communications. I doubt if we know all.

LEMON: You wrote that the president missed an opportunity to arm moderates in Syria, correct? Is this part of what we're seeing now? Is this directly connected to that? And is it time to revisit that possibility?

KRISTOF: You know, I'm a fan overall of President Obama's foreign policy, but I think that he did to some extent blow it on Syria when he was urged by David Petraeus, by Hillary Clinton to arm the Syrian moderates. At that point, there were moderates to arm. And President Assad

of Syria very cleverly fought them and left ISIS alone. And these days, there isn't so much of a center there.

LEMON: But as has been reported in other places that the president -- was the president briefed on this a year ago and then sort of looked the other way, didn't take it seriously enough?

KRISTOF: I don't think that he -- I don't think it's quite right to say he didn't take it seriously enough. I think the problem there is that there aren't good options.

There are commanders in Syria, moderate commanders. You can send them money, and you can send them weapons. You don't know exactly where those weapons are going to end up, where that money is going to end up, and there were risks.

But, in retrospect, the failure to do that meant that there were an awful lot of fighters who simply moved on to the most jihadi commanders, because they did have money. They did have weapons. And if you wanted to fight the Assad government, then you moved to some commander who had that weaponry.

And so you grew a beard and joined those. I don't think it's too late for President Obama to still do more to support that, but it's going to be, you know -- right now, the glamorous thing to do is to drop bombs on ISIS. And that may be a part of the strategy. But you need to have a force on the ground. And that means working with regional partners in that area to create a viable military force to tackle ISIS on the ground.

CAMEROTA: Nicholas Kristof, thanks so much.

KRISTOF: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: When we come back, how radicals are recruiting in America, and what will it take to stop them? We will talk to the experts, including a former jihadist himself.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: A new front in the war on terror is the radical recruitment right here in the United States.

Joining us to discuss how to combat this at home is a former jihadist, Mubin Shaikh, also Mia Bloom. She's a professor of security studies at University of Massachusetts and author of "Bombshell." And Paul Cruickshank, CNN terrorism analyst and co-author of the just published "Agent Storm." It's great to have all of you for this important topic.

Mubin, I want to start with you because you have such a fascinating personal story. At 19 years old, you became radicalized. You became a jihadist. Later you rejected extremism and now you speak out against it. But can you explain to us how a revolting video like the one released today serves to recruit other people to join ISIS? MUBIN SHAIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: I think the video does two

things. One, it does help with recruitment? Because for those who want to see some kind of harm, suffering come to the enemy as they perceive it, the U.S. in this case, or the west in general, any image of that or any manifestation of that they're happy with.

The other side, however, is that it's raising challenges to ISIS that how do you justify kill a noncombatant journalist that has nothing to do with foreign policy and doesn't act as a combatant?

So on one hand, it does recruit, but on the other hand it's dissuading some people from this approach.

LEMON: Mubin, why would he -- why would he -- do you think that he thought his life was going to be spared? Because why would he say those things? Obviously, he's coerced. Why would he say those things? Did he think his life was going to be spared? Or was this -- you know, do you think he had seen the other videos? Did he know what was happening?

SHAIKH: I think they probably didn't tell him that he was going to get killed. Probably that it was going to be a recording in the hopes that he would -- you know, they could get some ransom from it. And then probably told him on the second time that "You're going to do another video" and then they just killed him.

LEMON: Oh, wow.

CAMEROTA: Mia, you have seen this video. Besides its barbaric nature, what stands out to you?

MIA BLOOM, PROFESSOR OF SECURITY STUDIES, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS: Well, there's a few things. I think that the initial reaction was that maybe they -- that Foley was killed at the same time. But I think now that we've looked at the video, we can see that the beard stubble is different, the hair growth is different.

But similar to what AQI under Abu Musab al-Zarqawi did, what they did in 2006 was release a video approximately every ten days. And I'm wondering if they're going to keep doing that so that it keeps it in the story. It keeps the attention focused. And it keeps terrorizing the American people to see their journalists or aid workers or any other Americans or British citizens killed in that way.

CAMEROTA: Paul, the executioner says that he's doing this in response to President Obama's foreign policy of air strikes, including those that were just in the past 48 hours against Amerli. So how is the administration supposed to respond to that?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, clearly this is going to increase the pressure on the Obama administration to do a lot more in Iraq, but also a lot more in Syria.

You cannot defeat ISIS without going after this group in Syria. Syria is the stronghold of this group. The majority of its fighters are there. Its stronghold is there in Raqqah, a city in the north of Syria. And much of the leadership is also in Syria. So you need to do something more in Syria, many people argue, to confront this group and to roll it back.

LEMON: You know, Bob [SIC], you have compared al Qaeda to a cult, but you say ISIS is much closer to a larger uprising. Is it more dangerous than al Qaeda do you believe? I'm sorry, Paul?

CRUICKSHANK: ISIS is potentially more dangerous than al Qaeda. It has really frightening capabilities. It has up to a thousand European recruits that it could train and send back to the west. It has training camps on a scale last seen in Taliban-run Afghanistan. It has tens of millions of dollars of cash reserves. So all of this is quite scary capability.

What the group's leadership have not yet done is actually plot attacks back in the west. They didn't even do that back in the Iraqi insurgency days when the United States were involved with major operations against them in Iraq.

But obviously, there's a real concern that they could move in that direction now, that they have the capability to do that. And many people think that if the United States acts in Syria, that this group may see that as an existential threat and really escalate their response, Don.

CAMEROTA: Mubin, you suggest that there be a media blackout on ISIS. How is that supposed to happen?

SHAIKH: I'm referring to what's been happening on Twitter for some time. You have accounts -- accounts that are being blocked, especially those that share these videos, these decapitation videos, images and such. And that we, we ourselves who are online all the time, we not do it ourselves. There's no reason for us to do it.

Like your previous guests have done, celebrate his life. Show people how good of a person he was. I mean, he has more integrity in what he was doing in his own self than all of ISIS combined. And that's something that needs to be reminded.

LEMON: Hey, Paul, I want to talk to you about something about -- something that's in tomorrow's "New York Times." And that's Thomas Friedman's column. And he writes about President Obama being excoriated for declaring that we don't have a, quote, "strategy" yet. And some people -- Mike Rogers, the representative asked the Republican chairman of the House Intelligence Committee -- told FOX News Sunday that this "Don't do stupid stuff" policy isn't working.

And then Thomas Friedman said, "That sounded odd to my ear. Like we should just bomb somebody, even if it -- if it is stupid." If Obama did that, what would he be ignoring?

CRUICKSHANK: Yes, well, you know, that no real good options now for the Obama administration, because if you do now get involved militarily in Syria, you're essentially becoming Assad's air force. You're helping Assad confront ISIS. Really in Syria right now, it's just Assad against ISIS. The moderate rebels don't really exist in the same way that they existed a couple of years ago, Don. So no good options now in Syria, unfortunately.

LEMON: When we come right back, it's not just young men being recruited. You may be shocked at just how young the youngest recruits are. That story is next.

CAMEROTA: We're going the talk to our panel more about how to break it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back, everyone.

Stopping the breeding of terrorists at home is one thing. But preventing it around the world is much more complicated. So we're going to bring back now our former jihadist, Mubin Shaikh, as well as Mia Bloom and David Cruickshank.

Mia, I want to pick up on something that you said a bit earlier. You said this appears to be happening every ten days. Of course, there's concern about David Haines. Every ten to 11 days they turn up something. What do you think is next for ISIS?

BLOOM: Well, I think they have indicated that they have additional hostages, not just British hostages but American hostages. And so the question is going to be how many beheadings we are going to see in the future. So this is very, very disconcerting.

CAMEROTA: Mubin, I want to get back to your personal story, because after you were a jihadist, you then somehow, your eyes were opened and you rejected that extremist lifestyle. How did you break out of that mindset?

SHAIKH: For a lot of people, it's a process to get into this mindset. There are a number of factors that played. It could be family life. It could be political issues, you know, social issues.

And for me, though, it was the 9/11 attacks really made me rethink whether or not this is really what I basically signed up for. But it was only after I had spent two years in Syria studying Arabic and Islamic studies, actually learning Islam properly, that I realized the interpretations that I was given were completely unfounded, taken out of context, and just destructive to Islam overall.

CAMEROTA: And so Mubin, what do you recommend for how the U.S. can tackle radicalization at home and/or abroad?

SHAIKH: I think there are two ways that this can be done. One at home. There's -- I would suggest trusted intermediaries and subject matter experts. Trusted intermediaries are committee organizations that have stepped up and proven themselves that they're willing to work with law enforcement, they're willing to at least put out a positive message, and that the government not touch those communities in the sense that, if they know that there are a number of youth that they might be counseling, they might be talking to, don't give that information to the government. Let the government respect the space. And if -- you know, once

they're done with them, the government will continue to do its job. Then, of course, subject matter experts, people who know the mind-set. People who know how these things work or, ideally, how have some practitioner background so that they can come with a policy that's not removed from the reality on the ground.

LEMON: Paul, let's talk about social media. Rita Katz, who's a director of the site Intelligence Groups, said we shouldn't underestimate the power of social media and how much influence it has when it's coming to is. What happened on social media today after this video was released?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, ISIS supporters were ecstatic on social media. They're really energized by these kind of videos. It's almost like there's a pornographic attraction to violence, to extreme brutality that they have. And so there was a very positive unfortunately response from these kind of people.

And ISIS knew this was going to be the case when they put this out. That's why they put these kind of things out, to recruit more people into their ranks, to satisfy these people's blood lust, frankly.

CAMEROTA: And Mia, I saw you nodding while Mubin was talking about how to tackle this. What do you think should be done? I mean, we only can control mostly what goes on here in the United States. How do you think the rest of the world, particularly places like Britain is struggling with this, all of Europe, how can they start to tackle extremism?

BLOOM: I mean, Mubin makes a very good point that we have to approach this with a multipronged approach that involves the government, involves the community, involves and empowers the families.

The FBI report that came out in April trying to ascertain why the Somali community was so much at risk identified a series of risk factors, but also identified different things that we can do. And things like the interfaith dialogues that Mubin does is very helpful, as well as being able to have after-school programs so that there aren't, you know, three, four, five hours of time where the kids come home, there's nothing to do except be on the Internet and be exposed to this radicalizing social media.

LEMON: I'm glad you brought up the kids, because before the break we talked about how young kids are being radicalized. I want to play for you a video of young children being recruited by ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(GUNSHOTS)

(SINGING/CHANTING) (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So why children? I mean, is this just propaganda, or are children this young fighting? I'll ask Mia first.

BLOOM: So Don, as you know, this is the research that I'm doing now, trying to figure out ways not just why children are being recruited, but how to prevent it.

According to the ISIS spokesman, children under 16 are not being recruited. But we have seen children as young as 7 holding up severed heads. We have seen children in some of the vice videos, the vice news videos that -- about the Islamic caliphate showing children 9, 10, 11 years old being trained on automatic weaponry.

So I don't think it's just about the propaganda. It's certainly about preparing the next generation and making and insuring that these children hold some of the same values and ideology. It's a kind of brainwashing, but we are also seeing children as frontline fighters. And my worry is, going into the future, very young children as suicide bombers.

LEMON: Yes. Real quickly, Mubin, is she correct with that?

SHAIKH: Absolutely Mia is correct. And I also just want to add a thing: "The New York Times" did a piece today about using children as informants for the so-called Islamic state. And it's more than just theater. It is, as Mia said, it's to prepare the next generation.

LEMON: Mubin, Mia, Paul, thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much. We'll be talking to you again next hour, because we have so much more to come on the fight against ISIS.

When we come back, something completely different. This routine surgery supposedly for Joan Rivers that goes horribly wrong. And now she is in a New York hospital. She is on life support. How rare is this? What do we need to know about minor procedures and surgery? We'll ask our experts.

LEMON: We get them all the time.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOAN RIVERS, COMEDIAN: I hate old people. I say I hate, hate

old people. Their bodies, the bodies. Enjoy your bodies now. Add a brassiere. This is how I go to the bathroom. I use my left boob now as a stopper in the tub.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That's the fearless and funny. LEMON: Clearly hope that voice is not silenced forever. Really,

right?

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. She is fearless; she's funny. And that actually, Don, is about as much as we can get away with showing from that act on our show.

Tonight her family and her friends are anxiously awaiting word on the legendary comedienne. According to her daughter, Melissa, Joan Rivers remains in a medically induced coma. This is five days after suffering respiratory and cardiac arrest during some medical procedure.

Joining us to discuss this is Art Caplan. He's the head of the Division for Medical Ethics at NYU's Langone Medical Center.

Art, great to see you.

ART CAPLAN, HEAD OF DIVISION FOR MEDICAL ETHICS, NYU'S LANGONE MEDICAL CENTER: Thanks for having me.

CAMEROTA: She went in for what was supposed to be routine throat surgery, or maybe even a diagnostic test. Maybe not even surgery. How can this have happened?

CAPLAN: Well, she was at an outpatient clinic, and the short answer is nobody knows what happened.

LEMON: Should this happen in an outpatient clinic?

CAPLAN: I don't even know why she was there. We haven't gotten clear about that. Things like this are done outpatient, I'm sure.

LEMON: So -- so the problem is anesthesia, right? Usually.

CAPLAN: Correct.

LEMON: And you say there's always a chance. The fine print says there's always a chance that you're not going to wake up from this.

CAPLAN: The risk of anesthesia is about 1 in 25,000. If you get that little mask put on you, people have reactions sometimes to the gas, or they have an underlying condition that we didn't know about. So there's a tiny risk. It's not as big as driving to the hospital, which is probably riskier for you. But there is a risk with any anesthetic.

CAMEROTA: So is it your impression that this is something akin to what happened to Michael Jackson, where she had too much anesthesia and didn't wake up from it?

CAPLAN: No. Not at all. Michael Jackson was getting basically drug abuse from his doctor. He was addicted to something that was super dangerous.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I mean, at the end. He had too much. He had too much of a dose of anesthesia. Is that what happened?

CAPLAN: We don't know. We don't know. Whether she overdosed or whether she just had a frail heart. And we saw her. You know, she was joking the night before.

LEMON: She went into cardiac arrest, they said.

CAPLAN: And you can have a heart attack out of the blue. Think about this. We see people playing sports. There's a kid on the basketball court. He's in great shape. Wham, heart attack. So they do occur. You don't necessarily have to be frail before you have a heart attack.

LEMON: But what -- what role does age play in this? Because she's 81 years old. I mean, your chance is less if you're 20 or 30 or 40?

CAPLAN: Yes. So age is definitely a risk factor for any medical procedure. And I have to point out something even simpler. Age is a risk factor because it's age. So if you're 81 years old, things happen to you. Any day, some 81-year-old is going to have a heart attack and is going to die.

CAMEROTA: She's in a medically induced coma. Does that mean the doctors are keeping her sedated while they can stabilize her?

CAPLAN: So when she had that heart attack, her brain suffered a loss of oxygen. What you do now is you give a kind of a barbiturate, a sedative. You put her into a near coma-like state, and then you make her cold. Strange as that sounds, you're trying to drive oxygen to her brain to take care of this lack of oxygen that she had. Some of it is as simple as shivering. Some of it's trying to get energy up into her head.

Here's the danger. You go through that procedure. It hopefully does get enough oxygen up there to do something. But if your brain goes for a couple minutes, no oxygen, that's damage.

LEMON: That was my next question. The brain damage, that may be the issue after this.

CAPLAN: You know, the lawyers will sort out what happened. I think the lesson that Joan Rivers is going to teach us is she could wind up very impaired. And her daughter has said, if that happens, we know what she wants. That's the conversation that you've got to have with your mom, with your dad when they're older. You've got to say if you were brain damaged, if you couldn't think, if you were going to stay in a coma, what should we do for you?

She apparently had that conversation with the daughter, with her son. They seem pretty sure about what she would want. They have some tough decisions to make if it turns that way. But at least they had the conversation. More of us should.

LEMON: She doesn't make a secret that she's had lots of surgeries. Right? So that's no... CAPLAN: That is correct. She may be the champion of surgery.

LEMON: No doubt she's read the fine print.

CAPLAN: Yes. And she's also said, you know, in some of her recent routines, "I know I could die. I understand this. I've talked about it."

LEMON: She has a reality show with her daughter. I think it's on the E! Network. I'm pretty sure. And there is an episode where Melissa said, "I don't want you having any more surgeries. You're getting up there in age. I'm afraid something..."

CAPLAN: Yes, yes. Too risky for you.

LEMON: Yes.

CAPLAN: Yes, yes. So that's a risk factor that you want to watch for. At the same time, you know, when you're older, things are going to happen to you. You need to be prepared. I can't tell you how pleased I am to hear that they talked about this.

It's a rough, rough time for her kids. It's a rough, rough time for her family. Let's hope she pulls out. But if she doesn't, they know which way she wants to go. Does she want a lot done or not so much done? They know that. And we all should know that.

CAMEROTA: So that's your message to everyone out there. Have that conversation.

CAPLAN: Absolutely. Have that conversation.

CAMEROTA: Even though it's painful and difficult, it's important. Art Caplan.

LEMON: Can I ask you one thing before you -- is it -- can you have these surgeries and not do anesthesia? Can you do it with maybe a painkiller?

CAPLAN: No.

LEMON: You can't do it?

CAPLAN: Only in the Civil War.

LEMON: So you've got -- I'm just saying you can do a painkiller. Some people are...

CAMEROTA: Not when they're looking at your throat, right?

CAPLAN: A local anesthetic and that sort of thing. But it's tough when you're trying to examine the throat, look at the vocal cords.

LEMON: Where you're not all the way out is what I meant.

CAPLAN: There can be more and there can be less. That's true.

LEMON: Right, right. That's a question where you don't go completely under.

CAPLAN: Yes. Under.

CAMEROTA: Art, thank you so much.

CAPLAN: My pleasure.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)