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Don Lemon Tonight

North Carolina Brothers Finally Free After Three Decades in Prison; President Barack Obama Will Sit Down with Other Leaders in Wales for the NATO Summit; Donald Ray Morgan Arrested at a New York Airport Last Month, Charged With Weapons Possession; Are Muslims Being Vocal Enough in Condemning ISIS Brutality?

Aired September 03, 2014 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everyone.

What is in a name? It could be the difference between getting a job and getting passed over. Man named Jose Zamora says he sent out between 50 and 100 resumes a day, and he had no luck. So he decided to get a little bit creative. He dropped one letter from his name, and Jose became Joe. And the job offers started rolling in, that's what he said. We are going to have a lot more on the story in the next hour here on CNN, so make sure you stay with us.

Welcome back, everyone. It is 11:00 p.m. on the east coast. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Alisyn Camerota. Great to be with you tonight.

Imagine being behind bars for 30 years and being on death row, all for a crime you did not commit. Now imagine giving up your youth, losing the chance to have a normal life and family?

LEMON: And then imagine suddenly being set free. This happened to not one, but two men this week. They are brothers. We'll have their story.

CAMEROTA: Incredible.

And America's team signs Michael Sam, the first openly gay NFL player. Is this whole story just about football and skill? We'll get into all that.

We certainly will. But we're going again tonight with a story of justice delayed. Those North Carolina brothers finally free after three decades in prison.

CNN's George Howell has our story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Stepping out into the world a free man after 30 years on death row for a crime he did not commit. Henry McCollum did not show anger, did not seem bitter. His first message to the cameras. HENRY MCCOLLUM, RELEASED FROM JAIL AFTER 32 YEARS: There is no anger

in my heart. I forgive people and stuff. But you know, I don't like what they have done to me and my brother, because they took 30 years away for no reason. But I don't hate them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, son!

HOWELL: An emotional reunion with family is just the beginning for this man who has so much to catch up on. Even the simple things like how to put on a seat belt. A photo journalist on scene shows him how.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got to pull it over like that. And then you pull it down like that and clip it into the belt buckle there.

HOWELL: 50-year-old McCollum and his half-brother, 46-year-old Leon Brown spent most of their lives in prison. But yesterday a judge in North Carolina handed them both their freedom. McCollum and Brown both teenagers in 1983 when arrested for the rape and killing of 11- year-old Sabrina Bowie. But 30 years later, the North Carolina innocence inquiry commission discovers inconsistencies in their confessions, raising the possibility that the two may have been coerced by investigators. They also determined DNA evidence from the crime could not be traced to either of the men. Instead, the commission concludes the evidence on cans and cigarette butts matches the DNA of a convicted rapist and murder who lived less than 100 yards from where the victim's body was found.

PRISCILLA MCCOLLUM, STEPMOTHER OF HENRY MCCOLLUM: Our prayers are out for the Sabrina Bowie family. We're praying for them. And we're so glad that justice was served and the truth finally came forth. We thank God for that. And we're going to go on with our lives.

HOWELL: Released from his life sentence, this photo capture Leon Brown's first steps of freedom just outside the prison walls. Their father never gave up hope.

JAMES MCCOLLUM, FATHER OF HENRY MCCOLLUM: We waited years and years. We have kept the faith, waiting until God make the move. He made the move and there it is.

HOWELL: Two men, three decades in prison, finally free and now not looking back.

George Howell, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in Ken Rose. He is the attorney for McCollum and Ann Kirby, she is the attorney for Leon Brown. Great to see you both.

What a staggering story. How can these two men have been falsely accused in prison, one of them be on death row for 30 years? Ken, let me start with you. What took so long to exonerate them?

KEN ROSE, ATTORNEY FOR HENRY MCCOLLUM: Police had obtained confessions from both men. And the confessions were virtually the entire evidence against them. But that's all it took. And despite those confessions being contradictory, being contradictory to the facts of the scene of the crime, there was still not enough to get them off of death row. And get Mr. McCollum's conviction reversed until the innocence inquiry commission found evidence that another man committed this crime.

CAMEROTA: Ms. Kirby, let's go over how flawed the case was from the get-go. We just heard bits and pieces of it. No physical evidence ever against these two men.

ANN KIRBY, ATTORNEY FOR LEON BROWN: That's correct.

CAMEROTA: Both mentally disabled. They were both interrogated at the police station for five hours with no lawyers present. They wanted to go home. They were just 15 and 19 years old. So they signed or agreed or said these confessions, which they quickly recanted afterwards and said that they had been coerced. And apparently it was on the word of just one local teenager who didn't like them that cast suspicion on these brothers. Why were they given the death penalty, given that scant evidence?

KIRBY: Well, of course this was in 1983 in a rural area of North Carolina. The police were under great deal of pressure to make an arrest, because it was such a brutal crime in such a small community. And even though as Ken said there was absolutely no physical evidence linking them to the crime, the district attorney who prosecuted them and did vociferously convinced the jury that this was enough. Again, as Ken said, a lot of details that they each gave, but a lot of inconsistencies as well. And the crime scene investigator was in the interviews. Obviously had a lot of details. Leon said I thought that they would let me go home if I, you know, told them what they wanted to hear. And they were doing the talking, and Leon I think was just agreeing with them.

CAMEROTA: We want the play a part of an interview given by Henry McCollum, one of the men who was on death row just a few weeks ago. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

H. MCCOLLUM: (INAUDIBLE) I had never they threaten and all that stuff. So what I did, I gave them a false name and made up a story. This is where the crime happened when the crime didn't really happen that way. You know all that, right? Because I was trying to go home, I gave them a false confession.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Mr. Rose, it's so heartbreaking to think about all the time that these men lost. So investigators finally did a DNA test on the cigarette butt. It was found near the scene of the crime. And the heinous crime that you had mentioned was the rape and murder of an 11- year-old girl. And anyway, the DNA was traced to a man who lived less than a block away from the crime scene who was convicted of other sexual assaults. Why did it take so long to figure out who the real culprit was when DNA testing has been around for a while?

ROSE: Some police should have at least suspected Roscoe Artis from the very beginning. And he is the person who has been matched with the DNA. He lived within 50 feet of where the body was found. He lived even closer to where a blouse of the victim was found. And his house was the closest house to the crime scene. He had a prior record of sexual assaults. He had a prior record. He was suspected of a murder that was very similar to this murder. And three and a half weeks after this particular murder, he committed and was convicted for another murder in the small town of red springs, North Carolina. So police should have known that he -- that he was at least a suspect.

We found out later that three days before Mr. McCollum, Mr. Brown's trials, police in fact did suspect Roscoe Artis of this crime. And for that reason, they submitted a comparison request to the state crime lab, Mr. Artis' fingerprints with known fingerprints found at the scene. But they never completed the comparison.

CAMEROTA: Incredible.

ROSE: The crime scene investigator testified but didn't mention the fact that Mr. Artis was a suspect.

CAMEROTA: Ms. Kirby, I want to play one more sound bite from Mr. McCollum, who talked about the life that he imagined he would have had.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

H. MCCOLLUM: A long time ago, I wanted -- I wanted to find me a good wife. I wanted to raise a family. I wanted to have my own business and everything. I never -- I never got the chance to fulfill those dreams, never got the chance because the people that took 30 years away from me. They destroyed my life. Now I believe, I believe that God is going to bless me to get back out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: It's so heartbreaking to hear him talk about the missed opportunities and everything that he lost out on. How are these men doing today? And what does the future hold for them?

KIRBY: Well, as far as Leon, he think is still stunned. And I don't know that it's actually sunk in to him that he is free, and that he is not in prison anymore. When we talked yesterday, in the courtroom before the judge actually announced his ruling, I looked at him and I said I think this is really going to happen. And he said yes, it's going to happen at last. I think that was the first time he let himself believe that.

We talked about what he might do and what he thought he wanted to do. He said I want to learn a trade. I want to get a job. I want to do all the things I haven't been able to do. And he said he wanted to go to McDonald's and get a Big Mac and a milk shake was the first thing that he wanted to do. But he is just -- he is so institutionalized and is just about helpless. But I know he does want, to as I say, get a job, make himself useful, not just sit around and ruminate and over what has happened to him.

CAMEROTA: Of course. Well, we pray that they are able to find some measure of happiness with the life that they have left. Ken Rose, Ann Kirby, thank you so much for coming in and sharing the story with us.

LEMON: Crazy.

ROSE: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. I'm sure it happens all the time, right. But the question is why would someone sign a false confession, right?

CAMEROTA: Right, a false confession, that's right. It is hard to understand why anybody would sign something like, that especially when it could lead to decades behind bars or death row.

So our next guest can shed light on that. Xavier Amador is a psychologist at LEAP Institute. Why do people sign confessions?

XAVIER AMADOR, PSYCHOLOGIST, LEAP INSTITUTE: Several reasons, one is they're isolated. You heard him I was under a lot of pressure. They are traumatized. Imagine being picked up. You know you didn't commit a crime, and I tell you just raped and murdered an 11-year-old girl. So you're frightened and then promises are made. A lot of people don't understand this or don't know this, but law enforcement is allowed to lie. And my understanding is there were several lies said to these two young men, these teenagers. You can go home if you sign this.

How many of us have scrolled through on the Internet, accept terms and conditions and we click yes, and do we read a word? It may not be the best analogy, but it's not a bad analogy from my experience working on over 50 death penalty cases involving mentally ill people and those with disabilities like these two men -- teenagers, mental disability. They actually -- I believe it. Believed they could have go home if they signed this paper.

LEMON: Is there a certain category, as you said, teenagers, people who may have some mental issues?

AMADOR: Absolutely.

LEMON: There a certain class, there is a class race, or does it go -- does it --

AMADOR: It's a good question. There is two variables. One is the variable that you're describing, the characteristic of the person who is being interrogated. Do they have vulnerabilities, mental disability, they're in their adolescence. They're younger. That's one set of vulnerabilities. Drug addiction as well, by the way, because your judgment is impaired.

The other is the way the interrogation is conducted. And that people are isolated or tagged, it can go on 10, 15, 18, it can go on overnight. And the isolation continues. And they don't say those magic words, I want to speak to an attorney, which should end the interrogation. When they don't say those words, they get befriended. You know, get this off your chest. Just tell us this and you can go home. And as hard as it is for us to believe, unless you're in their shoes and a have that kind of incapacity, it's hard to believe they would sign this. And the fact that they recanted right away shows he didn't understand what they were signing.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely.

LEMON: The guy right there, closest to the crime scene.

CAMEROTA: They should have connected the dots long before this.

Dr. Xavier Amador, thanks so much for your expertise. Great to talk to you.

When we come back, will Vladimir Putin back down in Ukraine? President Obama and NATO leaders certainly hope so. But can they agree on a plan and can they put into action?

Plus, born in the USA, the American man who tried to join ISIS, and how he was caught.

Also, what is in a name? The man who dropped one letter from his name and turned his life around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Welcome back. In just a few hours, President Barack Obama will sit down with other leaders in Wales for the NATO summit. At the top of their agenda, of course, Ukraine and what to do about Vladimir Putin.

So joining us now CNN chief national security correspondent, and that's Jim Sciutto. Jim, you know, you spoke with Secretary Hagel today about how the United States can contain Vladimir Putin's aggression. What did he tell you?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, let me tell you one thing he said. The U.S. is not considering, and that is military action. The Obama administration considering that. Further action against ISIS in Syria. But when it comes to Vladimir Putin, Russian forces in Ukraine, that's not on the table. So it pressed secretary Hagel to ask him what evidence the administration has that its alternate strategy of raising the economic costs against Russia, further economic sanctions, what evidence the administration has that that strategy is working. And here is what the secretary had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: But if the goal is to de-escalate, they have failed because Russia has kept on escalating military.

CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: But Jim, do you want us not to do anything, as Putin continues to escalate?

SCIUTTO: No question. I'm just asking if the policy has been successful so far. And the evidence would seem to show that it hasn't.

HAGEL: Well, our president has been very clear. This is not a short- term deal. If president Putin continues to escalate, as he has been, he continues to drive his country into a ditch, there will be long- term consequences for that as already consequences are starting to show up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So the administration is saying that they're going to continue to raise those economic costs over time. And there was a development today. The French who were going to sell two major new state-of-the-art warships to Russia, even in the midst of all these military advances, the French say they're going to pull back. And that could be a signal of the further sanctions that are further planned with America's European partners to hit particularly at arm sales and other things that they think might make president Putin change his tune going forward.

LEMON: Jim, what can you tell us about the military operations in Ukraine, and what the U.S. involvement will be there?

SCIUTTO: Well, it's interesting. Just today and in the coming days, we heard that the U.S. is going to continue with what is an annual exercise inside Ukrainian territory. It involves a thousand NATO troops, Ukrainian troops and 200 American troops. That's not many. It's not a live fire exercise. But these are American troops on the ground in Ukraine at a time when Russian troops are also on the ground in Ukraine. And that is seen as a sign of strength.

Now, just to be clear, Russia is watching. Today Russia announced its own new military exercises nearby. The NATO one involving a thousand Russian troops, a thousand troops. The Russian one is going to involve 4,000 troops. This is the kind of tit for tat that you have in this conflict. So the real question is will there be de- escalation? So far we haven't seen that evidence yet. It's a real crisis. You know, this secretary of defense, this administration facing it on all fronts, in Syria, in Iraq and Ukraine as well.

LEMON: Jim Sciutto in Rhode Island tonight. Jim, thank you very much.

Joining us now to talk about this is Chrystia Freeland, a member of the Canadian parliament for Toronto center who wrote a book about Russia called "sale of the century." She is banned from Russia. And also Stephen Cohen, professor emeritus of Russian studies at Princeton University and NYU.

Let me get in to -- Chuck Hagel today said if Russia continues drive or Putin continues to drive his country into a ditch, he said, there will be consequences. Long-term consequences, he said. They're starting to show up. Is that true? Do you believe him?

STEPHEN COHEN, PROFESSOR, EMERITUS, RUSSIAN STUDIES, PRINCETON AND NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: He is reading note cards that bear no resemblance to reality. Another thing he told your correspondents is that Putin is escalating and escalating and escalating. But who is doing the escalating? We're told that tomorrow in Wales, we're told this, and presumably it will happen, NATO will move its infrastructure to Russia's borders. That's an escalation. We're also told according to Jim that American troops -- let me finish. Let me finish she is letting me finish.

She is snorting in my ear. The point is to put American troops under any pretext in Ukraine is a provocation. So the escalation is coming from the west. There has been a major development, and one understands the panic in the west, if the Ukrainian army is suddenly losing the war in the east, but that separate.

CAMEROTA: You said the provocation is coming from the west. But, of course, Ukraine says that tanks and weaponry and soldiers are coming in from Russia.

Chrystia, I want to get you in. How do you see? How do you assess the situation that is happening there?

CHRYSTIA FREELAND, MEMBER, CANADIAN PARLIAMENT FOR TORONTO CENTRE: Well, I mean, exactly as you have said, exactly as secretary of defense said. We have to really be clear about who is escalating. Last week was a real turning point in a crucial and dangerous escalation of this crisis with a direct Russia invasion of Ukraine. And it's not just Ukrainians who are saying this. It is NATO which has observed this. And it is the Russian soldiers mothers committee which is one of the most respected human rights organization in Russia, which has observed Russian soldiers are being sent home from Ukraine in pine coffins.

So the escalation is coming from Russia. And, you know, I agree with Professor Cohen. I am incredibly concerned about this. And I think it is dreadful that we are having to tighten the screws on Russia economically. Russians are suffering. But as Secretary Hagel said, with Russia escalating, with Russia invading a European company, and by the way, Russia has the next Crimea already. That was Ukrainian territory. It is now occupied by, claimed by Russia. We have to respond. The entire security foundation of Europe is called into question right now.

LEMON: You heard the president. He mentioned a red line. But last month President Obama's ambassador to the United Nations laid out a trigger he calls for further action against Putin. Let's listen to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMANTHA POWER, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: Any further unilateral by Russia into Ukraine territory including one under the guys of providing humanitarian aid would be completely unacceptable and deeply alarming. And it would be viewed as an invasion of Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So then the Russian force, this is what the president said today about a red line that we mentioned. The red line has been crossed. He said the Russian forces that have now moved into Ukraine are not a humanitarian or peacekeeping mission. They are Russian combat forces with Russian weapons and Russian tanks. Either of you surprised by the president's response to Putin's aggression?

COHEN: I'm not surprised. I'll admit it. He has become a cold war president and I think see coming very close to becoming a hot war president. I said on CNN in March six months ago that we were in a new cold war. That if the political crisis in Ukraine became a civil war, which it did become then.

LEMON: Yes.

COHEN: And the civil war became a proxy war between Russia and the United States, that we would be on the verge of war with Russia. Now it's absolutely true that Russia is aiding the rebel fighters in the east. It's true. But it's also true that we're aiding Kiev.

Let me just give you one fact, one second, because it hasn't been reported. About a month ago, the deputy secretary of the department of defense, ours, testified to the Senate that the American department of defense is embedded. We know this word, embedded in the Ukrainian defense ministry.

LEMON: Meaning?

COHEN: Meaning that American advisers are all over the Ukrainian war effort, just the way Russian advisers are all over the rebel effort. This is a proxy war. And so we now are at a moment approaching a kind of Cuban missile crisis situation. The two sides are becoming now not politically, but militarily eyeball to eyeball. And what Obama is doing is ratcheting up the odds. His speech in Estonia today -- first of all, our own department of state, Jen Psaki, said they had no evidence of a Russian invasion. They are allegations. I've seen Russian invasion. It is paratroopers jumping from the air. It's hundreds of tanks.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

FREELAND: OK. Not surprisingly, I disagree. I want to start by commending the American president for speaking directly about what is happening. And one thing that is really important is to avoid and cut through the Russian propaganda and disinformation.

This is a Russian invasion of Ukraine. And, you know, the central point I would make in response to what Professor Cohen has said is you really have to understand that what happened is really clear. The Ukrainians had a democracy revolution. The Ukrainians chose to sign an economic treaty with Europe. President Putin didn't like it and so he invaded Ukraine.

CAMEROTA: So now what should the Obama administration do?

FREELAND: I think the U.S. president, I think Canada, I think the west needs to be doing two things. One, continue to extend the pressure, the economic pressure on Russia. David Cameron, the prime minister of Britain has talked about cutting Russian banks off of the swift system. I think that's a very interesting and it could be a very powerful proposal. Essential to do that. And second, to help the Ukrainians to defend themselves. Help them with nonlethal military aid. Help them with economic aid. Third we have to find an energy solution. And Europe is working on that.

CAMEROTA: Chrystia Freeland, Professor Cohen, we sense you have more to say, and you'll be back to say it.

FREELAND: We didn't yell at each other.

CAMEROTA: I know.

COHEN: We didn't.

LEMON: I prefer to call it a sigh. He called it a snort. You were sighing.

FREELAND: I was sighing. It was involuntary.

CAMEROTA: And you countered with your own sigh, professor.

LEMON: Or snort.

CAMEROTA: Thank you so much for being here this evening.

When we come back, why is ISIS so brutally violent? Part of the reason is the propaganda value of that violence. We'll take a look at that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Two Americans have been beheaded on video by ISIS, as you know. Amnesty international this week added to the staff of war crime accusations against the terror group, publishing evidence of mass killings and abductions that amnesty says are part of a systematic campaign of, quote, ethnic cleansing in northern Iraq. Its brutality is so extreme, we think you have to see some of it to believe it. We are going to show some examples, but we warn you it is very disturbing.

Here is CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The more ISIS grows, the more it fights like a regular army. Like infantry backed up by artillery. Tactics that have landed them heavy weapons, but don't be fooled. These fighters are barbaric in a way no fighting force has ever been before.

Cataloging and posting in near real-time their war crimes. Last week, pictures emerged from human rights groups showing more than 100 captured Syrian soldiers paraded in their underwear, then images of those same men dead. But ISIS wanted to make sure the world knew it was responsible,

wasting little time posting this video showing commanders giving the orders to fire, then the nauseating hail of bullets, confirmation of how those soldiers were brutally executed. Its propaganda, like me, you want to turn away. But when we do, we give in. We are terrorized and their goal is achieved.

Almost a decade ago, al-Qaeda in Iraq, which ultimately morphed into ISIS, was led by this violent jihadist. He sprung to fame, beheading American businessman Nicholas Berg. Bin Laden's deputy Ayman al- Zawahiri criticized his blood thirsty tactics. The beheadings stopped.

But when ISIS murders journalist James Foley in the same way, the same al-Qaeda core leader has no response, at least not yet. As a result, extreme violence for propaganda seems to have no bounds. ISIS' wholesale slaughter of both Syrian and Iraqi army troops is institutionalized in the organization now. Even women, even young children are given severed heads to hold.

ISIS leader Baghdadi is marginalizing al-Qaeda's core, which means when his proteges target the west, it could be even more despicable than the terror we've seen in the past. These are fighters who have so debased and degraded themselves they've lost moral compass.

And as any regular military commander will tell you, that puts them almost beyond control and ultimately a danger to their own organization. But unless they implode, despite the veneer of a regular army, there will like he be more horrors like these.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: That's Nic Robertson reporting. As Nic report, ISIS has built a military strategy that relies on a detailed cataloging of terror to instill fear, a strategy that also raises questions about the humanity of those who follow the strategy. And one who tried to follow ISIS, a North Carolina man who was in federal custody tonight.

Donald Ray Morgan was arrested at a New York airport last month and charged with weapons possession. But U.S. officials say they already had him on their radar due to twitter posts in support of ISIS. NBC News is reporting that Morgan traveled to Lebanon earlier this year with the goal of crossing into Syria and joining ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RAY MORGAN, ALLEGED ISIS SYMPATHIZER: My Islamic name is Nasr Abdul Raheem. Somebody has to defend Islam. And somebody has to defend innocent Muslims.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So NBC has reporting that Morgan described himself on twitter as a holy warrior, and he also pledged allegiance to ISIS this past June. CAMEROTA: It's comforting to know that investigators are monitoring

all of this and that they flag it when people try to come back or travel.

LEMON: We've been hearing over the last couple of weeks, the internet, social media. And that's where they're recruiting.

CAMEROTA: That is the key.

LEMON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Well, are Muslims being vocal enough in condemning the ISIS brutality? And are we covering those condemnations enough? We will debate all that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Welcome back.

We have talked a lot tonight about the brutality of ISIS and whether Muslims have been vocal enough in condemning it. Let's find out what our next guests think about all this. Ben Ferguson is host of the "Ben Ferguson show." Lisa Bloom is a legal analyst for avo.com and founder of Bloom firm. And Marc Lamont Hill is a CNN political commentator. Great to have -- .

LEMON: Again, all underachievers. Why don't you guys do something with your lives?

CAMEROTA: They will eat up lot of time here.

OK. So Marc, we have been having a debate throughout the show whether or not Islam somehow lends itself to more extremism than other religions, and whether or not moderate Muslims are doing enough to speak out about it and when they are, if we're all covering it enough. What do you think?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's a great question. First, I think that the general Muslim community, we're talking over a billion people do speak out against acts of terrorism. They do speak out against, you know, gross things like beheadings. Although, I would like to think that we would assume that the average Muslim like Christian or anyone else begins from a place of human decency. You shouldn't have to denounce human headings. You should assume as an everyday person, you don't believe in beheadings.

But said, I think the most of the Muslin community have spoken. I have seen rallies. I have attended rallies. They have been masters around the country -- around the world in fact, have done this. But the mainstream media doesn't seem to cover this as much as others. And finally, no, Islam is not any more violent or prone to more violence than any other religion. We've had crusades in every religion. We have seen all religion spread by (INAUDIBLE). It's simply not true.

LEMON: Go ahead, Ben, BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is absolutely. There is

a large section of it that unfortunately is violent. And if you read the Koran --.

HILL: Which section?

FERGUSON: I've read it. It is there is a lot of verses in there absolutely bluntly saying in the current sense that you are to take off the head of those that do not agree with you. And you are to go after those that do not believe in Allah. And there is a lot of people in the world that believe in the extremism of Islam. And so to say that it's not -- hold on.

HILL: Can I just dispute that?

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Let me dispute that one point because I've read the Koran thousands of time in Arabic. And the word -- first of all, nowhere does it say behead people for not believing in Allah. It does use the word --

FERGUSON: Strike the head of the person who does not believe in Allah is pretty blunt.

HILL: One thing you have to do is distinguish between (INAUDIBLE) what we call canonical texts and other is extra canonical texts. And those are different rights. But to the initial point, the word (INAUDIBLE) which people are using to think about and talk about this idea of violence is a very particular word that doesn't actually mean violence, it means strive. It's used 41 times in the Koran. And it's not used in a military or violent sense. It's about total striving. It is different from --

CAMEROTA: Hold on, guys. I want to get Lisa in.

Lisa, you were making a point. The Old Testament can be rife with violent passages too.

HILL: Yes.

LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVO.COM: That's right. I mean, we're supposed to stone to death women who have premarital sex according to the Old Testament. The New Testament has similar violent language.

LEMON: But Lisa, we don't.

BLOOM: Let me make this point. The religions are what we interpret them to be. And we can interpret them in a violent way, or we can interpret them in a, you know, more modern way. The 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, those are the people who are the primary victims of extremist Islam. Those are the ones who speak out the most.

LEMON: Lisa, I agree with you. I agree with you that people speak out. But here is the issue, though. Yes, it says that women should be in the bible. But for the most part, Christians don't do that. There are still parts of this world -- hang on, Marc, let me finish.

HILL: That's Ben.

FERGUSON: Sorry, Ben.

LEMON: Where people still do stone women and where women are subservient.

HILL: Yes. And some are in Christian nations. There are people who still abuse children, people who take on multiple wives.

LEMON: Not with Islam?

BLOOM: I beg your pardon. I beg your pardon there are Christians right here in the U.S. who have polygamist marriages.

HILL: Exactly.

FERGUSON: But this is the point you're missing there is no other religion, there is no other religion in 2014 that commits the atrocities in the name of Allah of their God that Islam does. And I'm tired of people -- let me finish, nothing compared to Islam, nothing in the world compared to Islam. And yet we feel as if somehow we need to apologize.

I believe -- this is important. I believe that terrorists and a large section in the Middle East of Muslim individuals who truly believe in Sharia law, who truly believe in going after people that disagree with them to the point of killing them. I don't know why other people don't believe them when they say this is what they believe in. They do.

CAMEROTA: Lisa, go ahead. You want to make points?

BLOOM: Look at the 20th century. The problem is extremism. It can be religious, it can be communist, it can be fascist. Hitler and Stalin were not even religious, and they were responsible --

LEMON: But we're talking about religion, Lisa.

BLOOM: Buddhism right now in the world are killing Muslims. Muslims are being killed by Christians.

LEMON: Where? Where?

BLOOM: It's not a problem of extremism. It is not a problem of Islam or any one religion.

FERGUSON: Where do you see this type of brutality in the world? Where are Christians being this brutal in the world? I beg of you to give me an example of a systematic genocide that is happening towards Christians in Iraq and Syria right now? There is not an example.

BLOOM: It's happened -- OK, well, you can shout me down or you can let me talk. The systematic genocide that is happening is of Muslims by other Muslims. That's the worst -- FERGUSON: That's not Christians.

BLOOM: It's not Muslims on Christians.

LEMON: But it's still violence committed by that group.

BLOOM: It is extremism is the problem.

CAMEROTA: Hold on. Go ahead, Marc.

HILL: I think that's the point. Even if you were to believe that Islam somehow promotes violence, which it does not.

FERGUSON: It does.

HILL: Just let me finish the point, man. If you look at Sunnis versus Shiite, there is nothing in the Koran that Sunni should fight Shia, we see it in Iraq. We see it in Syria doing the same thing. My point being that, as Lisa said, this is about extremism. This isn't about a doctrine dispute. There is nothing Koranic or Islamic about what ISIS is doing. There is nothing Koranic or Islamic about al- Qaeda was doing. There was nothing Koranic or Islamic about the Muslim is doing in Syria. We could go on down the list. That's not the point here. This is about extremism, not about Islam. But again, in Islam, it's promoting peace. And the notions of violence --

FERGUSON: It's not promoting peace when they say if you don't convert over, that they are going to kill you. You're rewriting what they actually believe in.

LEMON: Hold that thought. We'll be right back right after this. Hold that thought. Hold that thought, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: All right, back now with everyone. Ben Ferguson, Lisa Bloom and also Marc Lamont Hill.

You know this conversation came about, guys. Very quickly, I was talking to my friend Hamudi Jaffer (ph) in Detroit who happens to be Muslim. And we were having this exact same conversation by text. And I said this is a conversation that many people are having around the country. So let's have it. So we have a very short time left. So I can give you guys each a short time to wrap it up and then we are going to move to other subject.

CAMEROTA: Your closing arguments in ten seconds. Ben, go.

HILL: Without interrupting after we make our closing statements.

FERGUSON: Let me just quote. I want to quote to clarify something. The Koran, 8:12, terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Koran, end of discussion. You said there weren't scriptures about beheading? There absolutely are in the Koran.

LEMON: Lisa. CAMEROTA: OK.

BLOOM: To attribute the wrongs of a tiny percentage of the population of 1.5 billion Muslims to the entire group is the very essence of racism. Extremism is the problem.

FERGUSON: It's not racism.

BLOOM: Not Islam, which is practiced peacefully and lovingly by the vast majority of its adhere rants.

LEMON: Marc?

HILL: Again, reading the Koran in context which I've done in Arabic and Islam, what scholar says as well, the arguments about violence are almost all about defense. It is almost all about in the context of war and in context of self-defense, not in the context --.

FERGUSON: The word infidel does not refer to defense.

HILL: Ben, Ben, you got to let somebody else talk. The word infidel is in Arabic is about people who conceal the truth. It's not simply about people who don't believe as you do.

FERGUSON: Tell that to ISIS, then.

HILL: I would tell that to ISIS, because ISIS is not an Islamic organization. It's a terroristic organization.

FERGUSON: Sure they are.

HILL: But Ben, Ben, you haven't let me make my closing argument. I'm responding to you interrupting me. My point is you say Christians don't do this. There are people all over the continent of Africa who are gay who are being stoned in the name of Jesus. There are people in catholic churches who have been abused in the name of God. I walked past a church in Harlem. This is the last thing I say, I promise.

LEMON: You're talking about the Attalla church.

HILL: Yes. (INAUDIBLE). It says all churches and members that support homos, curse the (INAUDIBLE) with cancer, HIV, syphilis, stroke, madness and then hell. And then they quote the bible.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: And they're called out for the extremists they risks the KKK was a Baptist organization. I don't hold that against Christians.

LEMON: Marc, you have that sign up and you talk about all those things and it's exactly what you said, but in this country, we allow you to say it. You can go in the middle of Times Square and you can say -- .

HILL: And you can say it in turkey too, Don. You can say it in Turkey which is an Islamic democracy.

LEMON: You can't say the same thing about Mohammed.

HILL: Yes, you can. You can go into Turkey --

FERGUSON: None of those religions are cutting off the kids of innocent children --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: That's the closing argument.

HILL: They absolutely are doing that to people. If you go to Turkey, if you go to Turkey, which is an Islamic democracy, there are pacifists (ph).

CAMEROTA: All right, Marc, we have a kicker that we have to get to.

HILL: I'm sorry.

CAMEROTA: But we need you to weigh in on this story. It is about a guy in California. He changed one letter of his name and job application -- job offers rolled in after he had a dry spell. His real name is Jose Zamora. He took out the S. He changed it to Joe Zamora. So he went from being Hispanic to I guess Italian.

LEMON: Yes. And he said the job offers started rolling in the very next week.

CAMEROTA: That's right,

LEMON: Are you guys surprised?

HILL: Not even a little bit.

LEMON: Lisa, why not?

BLOOM: Listen, I write about this extensively. My book "Suspicion Nation," there is study after study there is mountains of evidence about this. There is no question about it. That Sarah and Sam are going to get the job over, you know, African-American sounding or Hispanic sounding names.

There is just no question about it. It's all about implicit racial bias. Most of us think we don't visit. But all of the research shows that we do, that we prefer people with white Anglo Saxon sounding names. As sad as that is, that's the reality.

LEMON: OK. Marc, you said you're not surprised. We know how you feel. Go ahead, Ben.

FERGUSON: I mean, I'm not surprised either. And I think a lot of it depends on which what part of the country you are.

LEMON: Ten seconds. FERGUSON: And what the background. It will have a different affect

on you depending where you live. And I think that's unfortunate that people do judge resumes based on a name. They shouldn't do it, but they do.

LEMON: All right, thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, Marc, Lisa, Ben, thanks for the very lively and spirited conversation.

(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

LEMON: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Tomorrow night CNN has the incredible story of Kristen Beck, a transgendered woman who served for 20 years as a U.S. Navy SEAL. Here is a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is always, like, the American dream to have, you know, the wife and a 2.3 kids and a picket fence. And it was just something that you grew up with.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There he goes. First one to walk underneath.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just trying to fit in to the stereotype American dream, exactly what my parents and everyone expected of me. And I met someone who was awesome. We got along good. We were hiking and biking and, you know, doing all kinds of cool stuff. And so we ended up together. And then we had kids. She knew about this like way after we were married.

You know, you bring it out just slowly and see what the acceptance level is. And she wasn't totally digging it. So she had no idea what she was getting into. Definitely wasn't top on her list of things that she wanted. So it hurt. And she was that good, and I never saw it. It sucks. I wish I could have done a lot better.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: There is so much more to the story and you can see it when CNN film presents Lady Valor. IT is tomorrow night at 9:00 eastern right here on CNN.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: All right, that's it for us tonight. We have given you a whole lot of show.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Thank you so much for watching.

LEMON: Right now, John Vause, Rosemary Church, live with CNNi.