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Dr. Drew

Nine-Year-Old with Uzi Accidentally Kills Man

Aired September 03, 2014 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, critical seconds after a nine-year-old with an Uzi shoots a gun instructor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right in the head, dude.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s shot in the head?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

PINSKY: Hear the 911 calls and what her family says really happened.

Plus, Ivy League scandal. A rape victim is shaming Columbia University by hauling a mattress around campus. We`ll examine why.

Let`s get started.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Good evening, everyone. My co-host is Samantha Schacher.

And tonight, a 14-year-old boy who had sex with an adult woman years ago unknowingly has discovered he fathered a child and is now being asked

to pay child support.

Sam, this -- that guy when he was an adolescent was the victim of child abuse and now he`s paying child support.

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, CO-HOST: I know, it`s absolutely insane to hear you say that aloud. But this was a case, as you just said, of statutory

rape. He was not at the age of consent.

PINSKY: Right. Listen. I call that child abuse. It may not -- it`s not a 6-year-old, but a 14-year-old. You`re going to hear about this kid.

My point is well-taken, which is these boys that are abused by these adult women, they don`t do so well. You`re going to hear about that. The

guy did OK, but he had some stuff going on.

First up, though, we have new 911 audio, startling information from the police report and another look at the moments before the deadly

shooting of a gun range instructor by a nine-year-old girl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUN INSTRUCTOR: You have to keep that held in, otherwise the gun won`t fire, OK? OK. Turn your -- this leg forward. There you go, just

like that.

All right. Go ahead and give me one shot. All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is he shot?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right in the head, dude.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s shot in the head?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think he`s going to make it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep breathing. The helicopter is on its way.

I`m on the phone with EMS right now.

911 DISPATCH: Sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.

911 DISPATCH: Is he still able to speak to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. He`s completely unconscious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alison said the gun went off and saw her daughter drop the gun. Her daughter turned to her and told her the gun was too much

for her and it hurt her shoulder. Alison said no one knew Vacca was shot until the other instructor ran over.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Joining us, Vanessa Barnett from hiphollywood.com, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at speaktomark.com, Evy Poumpouras, former special agent

Secret Service.

Evy, who is to blame for this terrible tragedy?

EVY POUMPOURAS, FORMER SPECIAL AGENT: Everybody is to blame. This is unacceptable.

First of all, the parents are to blame for allowing their child to use a .9 millimeter weapon. The instructor is to blame because he should have

known better. And the range owner is to blame for not setting policies that implements standards and threshold.

Dr. Drew, this child -- there are rules at amusement parks for children based on height and weight, whether they can ride a roller coaster

ride or not. And yet, there`s no restriction on whether you`re able to manipulate an Uzi weapon.

It`s an automatic weapon which has a significant amount of recoil. Recoil is the kinetic energy that passes through a weapon when you pull the

trigger. When you shoot a single shot, you have kinetic energy and then it allows you to readjust. But when you go to automatic, multiple shots being

fired, you don`t -- you have to have the mental strength and capability to hold that weapon still and also the psychological cognitive to development

to understand what you`re doing.

Where`s your brain, Dr. Drew? Pull it up.

She`s a nine-year-old girl. She does not have the mental development ability to understand what she is doing.

PINSKY: Let me pull out the brain.

SCHACHER: Please do.

PINSKY: These are the frontal lobes up here. We`ll look at them from the inside this time.

This part out here is what goes to sleep in males particularly, females too, during adolescent. It`s remodeled during that period of time.

No, the young child preadolescent just doesn`t have that much function in that part of the brain, as Evy is suggesting.

But, Vanessa, Evy did not blame the parents.

POUMPOURAS: I do blame the parents.

PINSKY: I`m giving Vanessa a chance.

VANESSA BARNETT, HIPHOLLYWOOD.COM: I do know she blamed multiple people. But at the end of the day, it stops with the parents.

I am a parent and first and foremost, this would never have been me. This could never be my scenario. I wouldn`t allow my child to do so.

But if I`m trying to put myself in this mother`s shoes, then I have to make sure my child does not think this is her fault. It is all on me. I

am to blame. I should have never put her in that situation.

I don`t care in the gun range people say said it`s OK. I don`t care if the instructor said OK. At the end of the day, that is my child and I

make the rules.

PINSKY: Mark, if there`s a lawsuit that comes out of this, who from the legal perspective is going to be held accountable?

MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Well, there`s always going to be lawsuits from tragedies. First, the most viable with one would be against the gun

range for providing inadequate supervision to the child. And who is going to do that? The family will say my child suffers from post-traumatic

stress disorder and this wouldn`t have happened without proper supervision.

But there are some of my unethical colleagues who will look to sue Israel for inventing the Uzi 59 years ago.

PINSKY: Are you serious?

(CROSSTALK)

EIGLARSH: No, I`m not serious.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: I can believe it.

EIGLARSH: No. Yes, China in the 9th century came up with gun powder. I`m kidding.

My point is that somewhere along the way, there will be lawsuits from tragedies and many of them, they`re problematic for me.

PINSKY: Yes, Sam?

SCHACHER: Yes. No, listen, I do think that the parents should have known better to even allow their child to fire, to touch, to get near an

Uzi. But I do think that the blame ultimately falls on this instructor. Perhaps, the parents were completely ignorant when it comes to guns. And

then again they should have educated themselves on the guns for taking the kid to the gun range.

But this instructor should have known better than to place an Uzi in this 9-year-old`s hand, that is way too heavy for this 9-year-old. And

then, as Evy just said, of course, the recoiling is going to scare her. Then she jerks and then she`s firing off a dozen rounds within seconds.

And at the end of the day, it`s heartbreaking because this girl, even though it`s not her fault, she`s going to have to live with this for the

rest of her life.

PINSKY: Vanessa?

BARNETT: Yes, I understand what you`re saying, Sam, but I believe there were reports that the father actually shot this gun before the

daughter did.

SCHACHER: Wow.

BARNETT: And so, he knew that there was recoil. He knew that this gun was too much for his daughter. And he couldn`t say he was ignorant to

what this gun can do.

SCHACHER: No, I was just giving you -- I was just giving you another scenario. I agree. I agree.

PINSKY: OK. Mark, I`m going to give Mark last word in here.

EIGLARSH: Yes. There`s one group we haven`t pointed to -- the legislators. How on God`s green earth can you not reasonably foresee by

creating a law that allows nine-year-old to shoot Uzis, not reasonably foresee that a tragedy will happen. They need to close that right away.

PINSKY: All right. Next up -- thank you, panel -- another 911 call and what the girl`s father told the police. I hate blaming the parents on

this one. I hate the fact that there has to be a blame game and all but I think Mark is right. There`s going to be some suing going around and these

just what every tragedy creates, I`m afraid.

And later, I`ve got an Ivy League student hauling a mattress around to get attention for a rape that she says she suffered. We`ll hear from her.

Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The nine-year-old girl who accidentally shot a gun instructor with an Uzi last week told the police the gun was too much

for her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have the 911 call after the shooting. Here it is.

911 DISPATCH: 911, what is your emergency.

CALLER: Hey, this is Rick at the Last Stop. We called in an emergency for an ambulance at the Last Stop. We need a helicopter. An

ambulance ain`t going to work. We need a helicopter.

911 DISPATCH: OK, Rick. We`ve got one on the way, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got the incident report from the Mohave County sheriff`s office.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alex said the instructor, Charles Vacca, was showing his daughter how to shoot the gun and his daughter fired off a

couple of rounds. Alex said all of a sudden, he heard a lot of rounds of fire and saw her drop the gun on the ground.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PINSKY: Back with Sam.

We`re discussing the nine-year-old girl at the center of this Uzi shooting death.

Let`s bring in the behavior bureau: Judy Ho, clinical psychologist, professor at Pepperdine University, Erica America, TV host,

psychotherapist, and Spirit, host of "The Daily Help Line".

Last week, the gun instructor`s family appeared on NBC News. Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to make sure they didn`t spend a big portion of their life surrounding around this one incident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want to make sure that they understand we know it was a tragic accident, and that it`s something that we`re all going

to have to live with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: It`s really sad. Spirit, what do you think?

SPIRIT, THE DAILY HELP LINE: I mean, I said this before last week, this is an accident. It is an occupational accident. And the sad thing

about it, is as hard as this is for this little girl, they`re going to have to put this gun back in her hand.

PINSKY: What?

SPIRIT: They`re going to have to be.

SCHACHER: Why?

SPIRIT: That`s right, and do it soon, because the psychological trauma that is going to come from this for the rest of her life if she does

not master this and not realize that this was an accident and nothing more, she will be traumatized forever if they don`t do this.

PINSKY: Sam?

SCHACHER: What? People have accidental overdoses all of the time. Does that mean they should retire heroin?

SPIRIT: You know what? We`re not talking about an overdose.

SCHACHER: I`m giving you a metaphor. This is an Uzi.

SPIRIT: No, that`s not a metaphor.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHACHER: She should never have picked up an Uzi in the first place.

SPIRIT: That`s not for you to say. That`s not for you to say. It`s the equivalent of someone who gets bit by a dog and then can`t be around a

dog forever.

SCHACHER: No, because you`re making a choice. Dogs not making a choice. You`re making a choice.

SPIRIT: No, I`m talking about a person who has an accident.

PINSKY: Let`s get input from the rest of the panel. Mastery, and how important mastery is, this sort of exposure therapy. Judy?

JUDY HO, PSYCHOLOGIST: Dr. Drew, exposure theory is very important. Prolonged exposure is another term for it.

What we want to do for this family and for this child is to help her to reduce her symptoms of prost traumatic stress disorder, which she will

almost definitely develop. How do we deal with that?

We have to expose her to the environment that causes the trauma, in the first place. That doesn`t mean putting a gun back in her hand.

SCHACHER: Thank you.

HO: But it does mean having to expose her to Arizona, having to expose her to the gun range, having her step foot in the gun range, and

stand where she was standing when the accident happened.

PINSKY: That`s two votes, I hear you guys.

Erica, what do you say?

ERICA AMERICA, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: OK, I love both of you guys. I think you`re amazing, intelligent, but I completely disagree. There`s no place

for guns in this at all.

This is a tragic accident. But due partly to the unfortunate decision of the parent to allow her to use an automatic weapon, combined with the

teaching style, and the fact that this place Bullets and Burges even existed and allow for tiny little girl to shoot a gun like this.

So, what`s really important is that she is in therapy because of her feelings towards these people, towards her parents, towards the instructor.

Like frustration, anger, guilty towards herself.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Hold on. Judy says no. Why no, Judy? Why no?

HO: Not any kind of therapy is going to do in this case, Erica. There is a scientific way to treat post-traumatic disorder. Exposure

therapy is part of it.

(CROSSTALK)

AMERICA: Just being honest.

HO: I`m sorry.

PINSKY: Sometimes, Judy, right?

(CROSSTALK)

HO: There`s got to be some level of exposure that`s done. I`m not saying that talk therapy doesn`t have a place here, but she has to be

exposed to the environment in some way. I`m not saying the gun has to be in her hand but she does have to return back to this and re-experience it

and learn relaxation strategies while she`s being exposed.

PINSKY: You agree with that, of course, yes?

SPIRIT: You know, I could kiss Judy tonight. You know, I said I didn`t want to get technical and I didn`t want to talk about reaction

formation and be to clinical. But she is right on.

I mean, any solid clinician is going to tell you --

SCHACHER: But she said to not place the gun in the hands.

(CROSSTALK)

SPIRIT: Exposure.

PINSKY: Yes, I understand what you guys -- Sam, the reality is this is controversial and the controversy you`re seeing right here. It`s

controversial.

SCHACHER: But Judy is saying it`s not necessary to place the gun in the hands. I couldn`t see that as being beneficial.

PINSKY: That`s splitting hair, honestly. That`s really -- I think you`re reacting to that because we have a visceral reaction to putting a

gun back in that girl`s hand.

SCHACHER: An Uzi, yes.

AMERICA: What`s important is the support.

PINSKY: Yes, if we`re going to do exposure therapy, I mean, you can argue that that`s exposure.

But be that as it may, I am with Erica. I think things like EMDR, I think these individual neurobiological mechanism to unhook some of the

trauma and the memory of the trauma, it`s back to the brain. It`s a brain thing.

You guys are saying the same thing. You want to change her brain. You don`t want to get a chronic PTSD set up, but this is controversial.

Will you guys at least grant me that?

SPIRIT: I`ll give you that. All of the trauma hasn`t even been created yet.

PINSKY: Judy, what do you say? You say no, this is axiomatic to do exposure therapy to acute trauma? Do you know what I`m saying? I mean, I

understand what you`re saying.

HOT: Listen, Dr. Drew, she`s 9 years old. You know, in terms of how to deal with trauma, EMDR is not as effective for nine-year-olds as

exposure therapy.

PINSKY: Yes, you`re right. Well, I grant that. I was thinking about adults.

SPIRIT: Love you guys.

PINSKY: No, no, you`re right. I was thinking about adults. I don`t deal with kids.

Go ahead, Erica.

AMERICA: I was going to say, Dr. Drew, what if we have something who has PTSD from war. Do we send --

(CROSSTALK)

HO: That`s not what we do, Erica. No.

PINSKY: Erica, you and I are thinking about adults. We`re thinking about adults. We`re used to adults. Judy just bringing in --

AMERICA: I`m just saying you don`t have to do exposure therapy. That`s one way.

PINSKY: Yes. I will grant you that.

(CROSSTALK)

SPIRIT: That`s what I would do if she was in any office. That`s what I would do, especially at her age.

HO: That`s right, Dr. Drew.

I`m so passionate about this topic because I want people to get into effective treatment and deal with the problem. All I want to do is the get

the care that`s most effective for this child for her age and her developmental stability.

AMERICA: OK, I`m open to that.

PINSKY: I`m wondering if anybody on Twitter -- well, there`s some yeses. Exposure therapy isn`t needed.

SPIRIT: Do the home work first. Do the home work before they say yes or no.

PINSKY: Right. Look at the data.

And also again, I think we`re recoiling against the idea of a gun in that girl`s hand. It doesn`t feel right to us.

SPIRIT: Of course, it sounds horrible.

PINSKY: Yes, I like Judy`s immediate idea of getting her to the spot and not so much the handling of the gun.

SPIRIT: The tragedy has already happened, the tragedy has already opened.

PINSKY: All right. Next up -- thank you, guys.

Next up, a male victim of rape, of childhood -- of statutory rape so- called or whatever called in that particular state -- is being forced to pay child support for the daughter he has just learned is his.

And later, why is a Columbia University student hauling a mattress around campus? We`ll let you know after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Nick Olovis (ph) was 14 when heed a sex with a 20-year-old woman. That`s statutory rape. He was under the age of legal consent but

he never reported it. The relationship eventually ended and the two went their separate ways.

After Nick graduated from college, he was hit with a bombshell, a six- year-old daughter he never knew about. Now the mother, the woman who took advantage of him when he was a teen, wants child support and the state says

he owes her $15,000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: I am back with Sam, Vanessa, Mark and Evy.

Nick, the victim in this case, learned about his child two years ago, refused to pay anything and now the state is garnishing his wages. They

saw say he owes $15,000 in back child support.

Vanessa -- well, Mark, I want to go to you first, actually. Mark, I want to ask you something.

I`m sorry, Vanessa.

Mark, the term statutory rape, does that mean anything anymore?

EIGLARSH: Apparently not in Arizona.

Listen, I`m calling for any legislator who may be listening or anyone who know as legislator to not only pass a law but to make it retroactive so

that this victim of rape doesn`t have to pay anything. This to me, Dr. Drew, is absurd. It makes as much sense as a homeless person on house

arrest.

PINSKY: And in Arizona we`re looking at the law there, a child younger than 15 cannot consent with an adult under any circumstance.

They`re not of age.

And I`m going to tell you under 15, that`s a very liberal notion. Most, again most people that study psychology of the brain is saying 16 is

before the brain is even developed to the point that somebody can assess those sorts of things.

Vanessa, I will go to you now. he`s the victim. Now he`s forced to pay the woman who -- let`s call it what it is -- a woman who raped him.

What do you think?

BARNETT: I mean, he`s being further victimized. I mean, they`ve cleaned out his bank account. They`re garnishing his wages. He didn`t

know that he had a child, let alone probably has even processed what happened to him at 14 years old. And now, here he is having to pay his

rapist.

But if I really take a moment and try to see the legal side of these things, they`re more focused on the child and how the child can be taken

care of. And this guy has said that he does want to be in the child`s life. He wants to pay child support and help this child out. He does not

feel he should have to pay the back $15,000 and you have to agree with me.

PINSKY: A tweet came up alongside Vanessa there. You can put that up, from Penny, I saw was the name.

Basically, she was saying that the child should not be suffering -- here it is. This is a tough one. I think he should support his child

regardless of the circumstances, but not the back support. Same with what Vanessa said.

But, Sam, the fact is, should the child be bearing the burden -- should the -- the mom has to bear the burden, she`s the perpetrator but

should the child?

SCHACHER: I know, it`s tough, because the one who is suffering is the child. But yeah, this woman is a rapist. I don`t understand why she`s not

being charged. Why she`s not in jail. If the genders were reversed, you better believe that there would be a firestorm advocating for him if he was

the offender to be put away in jail.

But, Dr. Drew, just following on what Vanessa said, he does want to provide for this child. His argument is that he doesn`t want to have to

pay the back support, because he didn`t even know that, (a), he had a child and he was a victim.

PINSKY: Right. And here`s what he told the "Arizona Republic": quote, "Anything I do as an adult I should be responsible for but as a

teenager, I don`t think so."

Evy, I see you kind of --

EIGLARSH: He doesn`t want to pay.

PINSKY: Well, I don`t blame him. But, you know, he`s willing --

EIGLARSH: He doesn`t want to pay.

PISNKY: You think he`s not going to do anything? He`s going to --

EIGLARSH: He`s saying he wants to pay. He doesn`t want to pay, nor should he. He`s just saying that.

SCHACHER: Maybe he wants to provide for his kid.

EIGLARSH: Give me a break. He wants to see his child. But he shouldn`t have to --

PINSKY: Listen, Evy, I`m making a case for him being noble. Let`s hope he is, has some nobility, even though he was a victim of rape.

POUMPOURAS: Look, I think first of all, this mother, this woman her actions are deplorable and very devious. She waited for statue of

limitations run out, so she could be -- no charges would be placed against her. Now, she`s going back and she`s re-victimizing this man.

PINSKY: Well, hold on. So, you think that when she came up and notified the kid, it was specifically, the reason she waited as long as she

did was specifically so the statute of limitations had run out on her crime?

SCHACHER: Wow.

POUMPOURAS: Yes, because now he can`t press charges against her because the statute of limitations ran out. On top of that, she`s trying

to get money paid. If she had done it earlier on he could have pressed charges on her.

PINSKY: Vanessa?

POUMPOURAS: Now --

PINSKY: Oh, finish up, Evy. Come on. Go ahead. Finish.

POUMPOURAS: I do think from this point forward, he should give money to the child because it`s for the child, not for this mother because again

at the end of the day, we`re looking for what`s the best thing for the child. But I do think the legislation -- I mean, that has to be severely

looked at. This man is being re-victimized.

SCHACHER: Right.

POUMPOURAS: This is completely deplorable what`s being done to him.

PINSKY: Vanessa, you want to say something?

BARNETT: It`s obvious the woman is disgusting and deplorable. But that is the shadiest mess I`ve ever heard. I didn`t realize that she

waited until the statute of limitations. I want this man to now have full custody. If she wants the young girl in his life, he should have full

custody. She should be paying him child support.

PINSKY: Mark, we`re going the talk about a rape later in the show. If she had not waited for the statute of limitations, it`s unlikely he

would have been able to prove anything, isn`t it?

BARNETT: There`s DNA.

PINSKY: Years later?

SCHACHER: A child.

EIGLARSH: Yes, they could date it back.

PINSKY: Oh, I see.

EIGLARSH: Hold on. It`s very simple. You just show the DNA belongs to him, you show the age of the child and you do some basic math.

PINSKY: Got it. So, man, that`s devious.

SCHACHER: Dr. Drew, why the hell is there a statute of limitations when it comes to sexual assault victims, period?

PINSKY: Particularly of children.

SCHACHER: Yes, a lot of them it takes them years to come forward, maybe they don`t come forward at all because of situations just like this,

for people blaming them. There shouldn`t be a statute of limitations.

PINSKY: Mark?

EIGLARSH: There is not in most states for capital sexual battery, for children who are under the age of 12 and then they later disclose. But

there is a good reason why there`s a statute of limitations for other offenses so that you don`t wait around.

SCHACHER: I`m talking about rape and sexual assault victims.

PINSKY: One of the things about cases like this that gets my blood boiling a little bit is people will go, oh, this poor 15-year-old girl with

a 20-year-old girl, I wish I were 15 with a -- and the reality of the outcomes on these young males are not good. Now, we don`t really know is

it the fact they were sexually abused make the outcomes no good, or are these women picking males that are at risk?

This kid -- he did have some criminal -- was arrested in July for some criminal damage. He was -- when he was picked out by this devious woman,

you know, I guess we say allegedly. We can`t say allegedly because there`s a baby. When she picked out this kid, his mom had just died, if I remember

right. Is that the history?

Yes, I mean, Evy, this woman really is something, isn`t she?

POUMPOURAS: Yes, that`s why I`m just looking at this mother. If I were him, I would get a lawyer and I will do everything I could do get

something on this woman. This is so inappropriate and so wrong.

This is where you see the love being twisted and the offender, the bad guy is getting away with it. And this is one of those times where the

legislation is just not working right.

PINSKY: So, I will say it again that these boys end up having bad outcomes. There is a lot of aggression and criminality, what not later.

We do not know is it the result of being sexually abused or did these women picked guys that are at risk.

Either way, it does not make them better, that is for sure and the outcomes are not good. So, those of you who feel we should not feel too

terrible for this 15-year-old boy, yes, think again. It does traumatize him. It does traumatize these kids. Mark, is there anything he can do?

MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Unfortunately, no. But, I will tell you this. I am surprise that the people on the panel here think

he should be ordered to pay. I think there needs to be a rape exception, which would preclude someone who has been a victim of assault --

SAM SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I agree with that.

EIGLARSH: -- from having a financial obligation down the road.

SCHACHER: I agree with that.

PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh, rape exception, right?

SCHACHER: I agree with that.

EIGLARSH: Yes. Yes. Yes.

EVY POUMPOURAS, ON-AIR SECURITY AND INVESTIGATIVE ANALYST: We are looking at the betterment of the child as far as can this child be taken

care of. It is not the child is fault.

PINSKY: All right. We are not going to settle it. We are going to let it go. Next up, I want you all to go -- our viewers to go take our

poll at hlntv.com/dr.drew. Do you think this man should be made to pay child support? And, we will review the results of the break. And, later

an unusual rape protest is rocking the campus of an Ivy League School. We will talk about that after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: I am back with Sam and our Behavior Bureau, Judy, Erica and Spirit. We are talking about a victim of statutory rape, who is now forced

to pay child support for a child he in fact had fathered when she was 14. She was 20, he was 14. And, as I said in the last segment, this young man

-- when he was a young adolescent, mother had just died and this woman then decides this is the time to make her move on this vulnerable kid. Spirit.

SPIRIT CLANTON, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, it is so funny you guys started talking about it before the break. When it gets to the whole rape

exclusion, unfortunately you are never going to get that, because then you are going to have individuals who say, "Well, I want an exclusion when I

had a baby and I did not want the baby and I told her to abort the baby."

PINSKY: Yes.

CLANTON: You are never going to get it. And, unfortunately, you hit it on the head, Dr. Drew. You started talking about young men having sex

with older women. We have to talk about how many young boys see this as a right of passage.

And, unfortunately, there are far too many young boys, 14, 15, 16, having sex with grown women and they do not realized that these are

predators and that they are being sexually abused.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: Yes. That is right.

CLANTON: They see it as a rite of passage and they feel like it makes them more of a man.

PINSKY: Well, it seems more -- it is more than a rite of a passage that they really, really want to do these things.

CLANTON: It is bragging rights.

PINSKY: Well -- but, then they find a willing woman. They do not understand that that willing woman has got something wrong with her, that

she would be willing.

CLANTON: The woman came for him. He does not realize that she groomed him, that she chose him.

PINSKY: That is right. That is exactly right. Sam.

SCHACHER: Yes. And, speaking of which, Dr. Drew, this woman who just has a shady ass character, no moral compass is a rapist. How is she a

good mother? How is she a good example to her child if this guy that we are talking about, hopefully, is a good person, given a benefit of the

doubt. He should have full custody.

PINSKY: Sam. Well, Sam, it is interesting. What you said triggered an interesting response from both Judy and Erica. I am not sure what I

read on their faces. Judy, you first.

JUDY HO, PH.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I was just thinking about this whole situation, the gender differential.

SCHACHER: Right.

HO: So, what if this case was actually a girl that was the victim and an older male and somehow this woman, now because she is in her 20s,

she is actually making money and now she is being asked for child support. We would never even think to do that probably because we see her as a

victim and we would say, "You know, what? We are not going to go to the victim and ask for money for a child she did not necessarily want to have

in the first place.

But, somehow when the tables are turned and the male is the victim, we do have these culture stereotypes as we are talking about and now

somehow you can blur these two lines. How is child custody and this issue of child support and rape all in one legal bag? Why is that not separated?

PINSKY: Not only that. Erica, I will let you talk in a second. But, the thing you guys just flashed up on the screen there about bureaucracy of

the Arizona State. They do not have the discretion to be human beings. That is why I hate bureaucracy. Look at this. "We do not have the

discretion to do otherwise." Erica, go ahead.

ERICA AMERICA, T.V. HOST AND PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. I like the intent, and I will say the intent is to protect the child. So, that is

what is good. But, it really needs to be looked at, because there is nuisance in this case. And, the case of that, this guy, this young man was

victimized three times. First, he was raped. Second, he was not told about a pregnancy --

PINSKY: Yes. You are right.

AMERICA: And, the third time is like, "Hey, you have a six-year-old and you owe $15,000."

SCHACHER: Wow.

PINSKY: You are right.

AMERICA: He was told all of this at once. And, now he is asked to pay. So, it does not make sense. Something is not right here. It really

needs to -- as Evy was saying, as everybody is saying, it needs to be looked at and there is also sexism in it. There is a lot of things that

just do not add up here and we cannot just keep things as they always work.

PINSKY: So much. So much wrong. What do you say, Judy? You are giving me a touchdown sign.

HO: I know. It is football season. I am super excited. You know, this is the problem, OK? They are citing the rules, which are made up by

human beings. Go back and revisit the rules.

PINSKY: I know. Yes. Thank you. Why cannot we be human beings? Why cannot we have the flexibility? I do not know what is wrong with us in

this country.

CLANTON: You have to change the law, first. You know the way the rules work.

PINSKY: Yes, Spirit, I know the way the rules work, but we have lost the spirit, you will forgive me, Spirit. We lost the spirit of what this

country was meant to be. I am just saying. I am troubled by that.

CLANTON: I got a list for you, then.

PINSKY: I do too, by the way. Listen. We put up a poll on our website then we ask if you thought if he should have to pay the child

support. Here is how you responded. There you go, 86 percent of you are with us. That it is sort of silly here. I am still very disturbed by the

fact that there cannot -- by the way, Mark Eiglarsh who is an attorney, who is saying that we should be gong -- did not he say we should go to the

legislature on this one, Sam?

SCHACHER: Yes, he did.

PINSKY: OK. Now, it will be so simple to have some sort of -- not simple. But, why cannot we have things like this picked up by our

legislation, our legislators? No, Erica, no?

AMERICA: No. No. No. I agree with you. I am just thinking if there is a statute of limitations with rape, which totally does not make

sense, why is there not limitations of if you hid the pregnancy forever and then you spring it on someone so many years later, how are you allowed to

ask for money when you hid it from him? That is insane. I am sorry, that is just crazy.

SCHACHER: Right.

PINSKY: All right. We got to take a quick break. Next up, rape on an Ivy League campus. Another rape has generated a unique protest from the

victim. There she is and there is her mattress with her. You are going to hear about that, this young lady, her mattress, what is going on? What

this is all about, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMMA SULKOWICZ, RAPE VICTIM PROTESTER: I was raped in my own dorm bed. And, since then that space has become fraught for me and I feel like

I have carried the weight of what happened with me everywhere. Since then, I will be carrying this dorm room mattress with me everywhere I go for as

long as I carry the same school as my rapist. To me it is an endurance performance art piece.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: That interview was from the Columbia spectator. I am back with Sam. We also got Erica and Vanessa and joining us, my love line co-

host, Mike Catherwood. A college student insists she will carry her mattress with her until the alleged rapist is expelled from Columbia

University. That is her goal.

Emma Sulkowicz is her name. She says she was raped in her dorm room during her sophomore year. She is angry about the way the school and the

New York Police Department handled her case. I just wonder what we think first of all. Sam, what do you think of her tactics here?

SCHACHER: I say go for it. Kudos to this girl. She tried to handle it her way and now she is trying to raise awareness for her injustice.

But, also she is also raising awareness to rape culture in general, which is so pervasive on college campuses.

PINSKY: All right.

SCHACHER: One in five young women, Dr. Drew, according to statistics by the time they graduate will be sexually assaulted. So, it is time that

we need to address this.

PINSKY: All right. So, Sam, I am with you that even if it is just an attempt to raise awareness that has positive --

SCHACHER: She wants justice.

PINSKY: Well, that is a different issue. That is a different issue. But just raising awareness, I will grant you that. Erica?

AMERICA: Yes. I mean I think this girl is so courageous, because this is a very hard thing to do, to come out, make a visual statement about

a sexual crime that she says was committed against her and there were not any actions taking against it.

For two years she had to see the person who raped her all around campus. And, she said, it was traumatic seeing it over and over again.

Now, I do not think that the school does not care about its students, but what I do think is that colleges care about their reputations.

And, they do not want a lot of rape controversy about them. I mean, if we think about the Jerry Sandusky case, things went on for years and

people knew about it. So, we really need to know, what did the school know, what do they know about things and it really needs to be

investigated.

PINSKY: Listen, my college had a scandal a couple of years ago, and they stepped up, they were very public about it, very direct about it.

Vanessa, your thoughts?

VANESSA BARNETT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: I am not surprised that this is the route she has taken. I know she is kind of taking a beating on social

media. People thinks she is just attention seeking and it is just out to drum up some publicity.

But, I mean her major is visual arts. She wants attention because she wants people to realize what has happened to her and what has happened

to, apparently, 22 other girls -- 23 girls filed complaints about this one boy and he is still there. She still sees him. She still has -- not

classes with him, but he is in her world. He is still there.

PINSKY: Yes. All right. Mike, I am going to go to you on this, but I want to report something. That Emma reported this -- this is the girl

carrying the mattress around. She reported the rape to the university eight months after it occurred. And, I want you to think about the fact --

Sam went so far as to say she was looking for justice. There are two things here. She is looking for raising awareness and she is looking for

justice.

Now, she felt compelled to report it because of the other woman who, Vanessa, mentioned have been reporting been assaulted by the same man. She

filed the police report more than a year after the rape and was angry that the officers were dismissive especially when she told them she had

consented the sex to this man twice before previous to rape and then she could not remember some details about like what she was wearing and that

sort of thing that night. I do not see where this is going to get her justice, necessarily.

MIKE CATHERWOOD, RADIO HOST PERSONALITY: Well, it is exactly -- it is not going to do much. And, I actually was -- at first when I saw the

story, I was a bit kind of offended for other women who had been victims of sexual abuse, because I did not understand that she was doing it mainly as

a project for her major of visual arts, because really if it is not done --

PINSKY: Wait. Wait. Mainly, you think that is what she is doing?

CATHERWOOD: If it is not for that -- if it is not for that then all it does is really trivialize her cause. Because carrying a mattress around

school does not do much to raise awareness nor to get any justice. It kind of makes her on eye sore.

PINSKY: Ladies, have it.

SCHACHER: We are all talking about it right now. I say bravo to this girl. And, Dr. Drew, she also brought up the fact about why is not there

more education on campuses to teach young men and students in general about what constitutes consent as well as if you are intoxicated you are not able

to give consent, because 80 percent of these rapes involve alcohol.

PINSKY: Listen, guys, you want to look at every adverse outcome on a college campus, you find alcohol and drugs, whether it is sexual contact,

whether it is an accident, whatever it is, you find alcohol and drugs. It is always there. And they do not know, Sam. You are absolutely right.

They do not know when you are intoxicated -- basically the same as a DUI. The same blood levels of DUI, you are no longer able to render

consent. You are not able -- you are not of a certain mind-set to be able to do that.

CATHERWOOD: But, this is much more nuisance argument than I think people are willing to give it.

PINSKY: But, then, Mike, it is got to be continually discussed. That is what she is doing.

CATHERWOOD: I do not think there is enough awareness for how many women use this as a weapon towards men and how many falls claims of sexual

assault --

PINSKY: All right.

BARNETT: Real rape outweighs the falls claims.

PINSKY: All right. Vanessa, hold your thoughts. Hold your thoughts, Vanessa. I want to get more into this right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SULKOWICZ: I was raped in my own dorm bed. I will be carrying this dorm room mattress with me everywhere I go for as long as I attend the same

school as my rapist. I am not as nervous about carrying a mattress around as I am with the attention that it has gotten.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Interview there was from the Columbia spectator, Columbia University. Back with Sam, Erica, Vanessa and Mike Catherwood. This

college student plans to carry this mattress with her until, she says, her accused rapist is expelled from the school. Again, they both attend the

Columbia University.

We do know a little bit about him. The university found him not responsible in this case. He has been accused of assault by two other

women on campus, not 23 as we misstated a few minutes ago.

BARNETT: Sorry.

PINSKY: It is all right. He has not been criminally charged, but he was named in the police report. His name was also found on a handwritten

list of sex offenders taped in the women`s bathroom on campus. So, Mike, you are asking is he being treated fairly?

CATHERWOOD: I mean, honestly, I do not know. And, if he did, truly sexually assault or rape any of these women or even just one, he is a

disgusting reprehensible person, as is anyone who commits those crimes. My point is, though, and I do feel like you cannot make this argument without

being looked at as someone who is not sensitive to female victims.

You know, when people are falsely accused of any type of sexual act, whether or not they committed that, that claim sticks with them for the

rest of their life. I personally know a guy, who was falsely claimed and then his accuser came out 10 years later and said that he did not commit

this crime that she was just angry. But, that still affected him for the entirety of his life., while into his 40s.

And, I am not making excuses for him nor am I making excuses for anybody that actually commits any type of sexual assault. My point being

that if this woman was a truly, truly a victim, carrying around a mattress does not do much except to make her, you know, an attention seeker.

PINSKY: Erica, and then Vanessa. I will say, except that we are having the conversation. I think that is the important thing. This thing

stay in front of people. Go ahead, Erica.

AMERICA: Yes. Mike, I love you but I think you are more coming from a personal place with your friend. Absolutely, this mattress gives this

woman a voice. She did not have one before. I wanted to also say that women who are victims of sexual crime often do not say it right away.

They are very ashamed and take some time. We should not use it against her if it takes a year to report it or even five years or six

years. It takes while. I want to say that first. And, second, like you said, the guy was not -- he was not found guilty of anything. So, if it

was not for this mattress she was carrying around, nobody would hear her voice. I am pretty sure that this was something.

PINSKY: All right. I was bringing up the time frame and the way it was reported more from the sense of her ability to get justice from all

this. I think it is sort of the ship has kind of sailed in terms of ability to get justice out of this. Vanessa, go ahead.

BARNETT: I mean it is unfortunate that we think that she does not have a leg to stand on just because of time, because it has been proven

year and year again that women do not report it immediately. And, she told her campus and she told the police and they are shooting her down.

PINSKY: You are right, but Vanessa, maybe there is something to be learned here. Again the conversation is what is important. And, I would

say, this is what I would think. You know, Vanessa, you tell me if I am wrong here. That if a woman believes she may have been raped, there is no

harm -- it is probably uncomfortable, I understand. But there is these things called forensic examinations, where they collect all the data.

You go to the emergency room and the social worker sees you. It is something they do. It is not a big deal to them. There may or may not be

a police report. But at least you have the data done. So, that later people cannot say what are you talking about? You cannot remember what

shoes you were wearing that night. Let alone any facts on this case. Vanessa?

BARNETT: Well, in her case there could have been things there but like she said before, she had consented before.

PINSKY: Does not matter.

BARNETT: And even that night she partially consented that night that it happened.

PINSKY: Partially consented, what does that mean?

BARNETT: Because, in the beginning of the act she was OK, but then he took it too far. He strangled her. He pushed her to the ground. He

knocked her on her knees and forearms and she was scared. And, she cried out. And, she said, "No, not anymore. I am done, and he did not stop.

And, so that there is the gray area --

PINSKY: That is not so gray. That is not gray. It is a sexual assault.

BARNETT: No, for him. He probably thinks this is like fun and foreplay and they are getting it on and he is screaming no. But, he is in

the middle of the act. She is ashamed and scared. She knows people are not going to believe her. People are questioning her now. That is why

they wait and they are confused and they do not know what their next step is.

CATHERWOOD: All of you ladies are very smart people, and I would never want you guys to have experience any of this, but if you were to,

would not you think that there are other --

PINSKY: Whatever is going to come out of your mouth next, it scares me.

CATHERWOOD: -- I was just saying, would not you think that there is other ways to create just as much attention with a lot of purpose rather

than carrying something as big as large in a campus. I mean if she were to handcuff herself to the administrative building and not leave until she is

going to get or receive --

PINSKY: Old-fashion, Mike. Old-fashion.

CATHERWOOD: Clearly, she was motivated also by some of her artistic endeavours.

PINSKY: She knows how to do it.

BARNETT: You use the voice that you have. I am on T.V. So, if I wanted to bring attention to a cause, I would say it on the Dr. Drew show.

She does her visual art, and that is her medium.

PINSKY: All right, guys. We got to wrap it up right there. Thank you very much. DVR us please anytime. DRV us then you can watch us

anytime. And, of course the show. Check us out online, our Facebook page. We will have the after show there. And, Forensic Files begins right now.

END