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Legal View with Ashleigh Banfield

Vice President Issues Strong Words Against ISIS; Reporting From Harm's Way; Steven Sotloff Remembered

Aired September 03, 2014 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN HOST: Welcome back. We're continuing our breaking news. The vice president speaking at a Naval ship here in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, with some very, very strong words for the ISIS executioners and the murderers who took the lives of two American journalists in the last two weeks. Have a listen to the president -- the vice president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When these barbarians replicated with Steven what they did with Foley who is from New Hampshire, they somehow think that it's going to lessen U.S. resolve, frighten us, intimidate us. But if they think the American people will be intimidated, they don't know us very well.

We came back after 9/11.

(APPLAUSE)

We dusted ourselves off. And we made sure that Osama bin Laden would never, ever again threaten the American people. We came back Boston strong, blaming no one, but resolved to be certain that this didn't happen again.

Today, America may be grieving -- still grieving from Jim Foley, a native of New Hampshire, as I said to Reverend Rochester. But the American people are so much stronger. So much more resolved than any enemy can fully understand. As a nation, we're united. And when people harm Americans, we don't retreat. We don't forget. We take care of those who are grieving.

And when that's finishes, they should know, we will follow them to the gates of hell until they are brought to justice, because hell is where they will reside. Hell is where they will reside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Obviously, a huge effect, the video releases of the two beheadings of two American journalists, James Foley and Steven Sotloff, in the last two weeks.

The vice president had been in New Hampshire actually for a shipyard workforce engagement affair. It had nothing to do specifically with the topic at hand. But clearly making his voice heard in the light of what has increasingly become a very serious issue for the United States. Especially since the president made that comment that have so many critics up in arms about no strategy necessarily for ISIS in Syria.

I want to bring in my guests. And I have several very smart voices on this. Jeffrey Toobin, our CNN legal senior analyst. To his left, Austin Long, who's a former political scientist with Rand Corporation, a professor at Columbia's International Public Affairs School and analyst and adviser to the United States military in Iraq and an expert in the Middle East.

As well Mubin Sheik continues to join me from Toronto, a former jihadist who certainly changed his tune and has a lot of insight into what that mindset is like. And also, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, CNN military analyst.

And General, if I can start with you, when the vice president says we will follow these ISIS killers to the gates of hell, is that rhetoric or is this foreshadowing of some concrete military action against ISIS above and beyond what's happening with the airstrikes in Iraq?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, FORMER COMMANDER, U.S. ARMY IN EUROPE: Well, I think it's a little bit of both, Ashleigh. And I've been following with fascination your interviews this morning. Nic's done a wonderful job on his piece and Mubin Sheikh is creating some very good . And in his piece describing the terrorists.

And what I'll tell you is, the revulsion of anyone who's been combat, who has seen the results of suicide bombings or suicide vest or beheadings, many of which I've seen in Iraq, it just tells you that you constantly are revolted by these kinds of behaviors. And I think all of the panelists have had very good points on this.

Having seen what al Qaeda does, and this organization is much worse than anything we saw with al Qaeda, just shows that they truthfully have to be stopped and they will be.

BANFIELD: And Austin Long, weigh in on this. If ISIS wanted to wake a sleeping giant, I dare say is not necessarily sleeping, these two public beheadings certainly have a lot of attention. They have congressmen calling for action. They have the public calling for action. They have the president having to answer for what some say is inaction.

Why would ISIS do this?

AUSTIN LONG, PROFESSOR & MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: I think a big part of it is they get a lot of propaganda value out of it. This is a very brutal act as people have discussed. And it's gotten a lot of attention. So if you don't believe that the United States is going to take serious military action, which until recently it hadn't, you may believe that this may in fact convince the U.S. to back off.

BANFIELD: You think it would convince the U.S. to back off? Or some would say this is actually going to convince the U.S. to do otherwise, to ramp up its efforts to fight this force. Effectively, they may have a great propaganda tool, but they're bringing in more airstrikes. Seem a bit counterintuitive.

LONG: It's a common misperception in the United States. I mean, the vice president sort of alluded to it in the clip. I mean, people since Pearl Harbor believed that the United States, when push comes to shove will back down, when it's attacked. And that's just not been the case historically but people continue to misperceive that, I think.

BANFIELD: We have some pretty recent empirical evidence after 9/11, there was no backing down. It only took, I think, less than a month before there was action and there were effectively boots on the ground in Afghanistan.

LONG: And for every example like that jihadists would point --

BANFIELD: And I say, by the way, I want to temper that.

LONG: Sure.

BANFIELD: They were effective. I witnessed them myself. We did not announce that we had boots on the ground in Afghanistan, but I met a few of them.

LONG: Certainly. The flipside is, if you're a jihadist, you can point to the battle of Mogadishu in 1993 and the United States withdrawal there. You can point to your great victory in the war in Afghanistan in the 1980s. You can point to the fact the U.S. is withdrawing. So for every example of the U.S. taking effective action, if you're so inclined, you can point to an example of super powers being defeated by exactly these kinds of tactics.

BANFIELD: And Mubin Sheikh, from the -- from the mindset of the jihadists, who I assume, I can only assume, have access to media. They're certainly pretty sophisticated in what they put out. So I can only assume they're sophisticated in what they have access to consume as well. Is there this -- is it a competing notion for them? Sure, we might have some good propaganda here, but do they really want to invite the wrath of the United States?

MUBIN SHEIKH, FORMER JIHADIST: Yes, this -- look, for a lot of these groups, their decision calculus is not always well thought out. In cases that it is, it doesn't really serve their benefit or serve their interests. One of the things I think, look at their narrative. Their narrative is that, look, we're just going about our business and suddenly the U.S. started bombing us near the Mosul dam, so because of that we're going to start beheading noncombatant journalists.

Now they were not just going about their business. They were expanding, they were killing, they were persecuting Christians, the Yazidis, Sunni Muslims on top of that. This is something that we need to remind people of is that more Muslims have been killed by ISIS than anyone else. And we talk about boots on the ground. It's been Sunni Muslims that are the boots on the ground that have been fighting ISIS all this time.

So what they do want, in my opinion, is that they want the U.S. to come in and strike them so that they can, then, escalate to the next level, which is, see, the U.S. attacked us, we have no choice but to attack them there, in their homeland. And this is why we're being shown these beheading videos by Western citizens. I believe the message is, if you come from us there, we're going to come for you, where you are.

BANFIELD: Jeffrey Toobin, last comment, is there any kind of diplomatic or legal deterrent that you think a fighting force like this would actually adhere to?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: If you look at these crazy people, you know, executing people on television, they are not deterred by conventional means. They are not sitting around worrying about the International Criminal Court. I think the only thing that is going to deter them is if they're killed by military action. And you know, for all the brave talk, you know, we are not fully committed in -- we are not going to commit ground troops.

There's a lot of military we're not using. And, frankly, for all of the talk among politicians, they don't even want to do it either.

BANFIELD: Jeffrey Toobin, Austin Long, thank you. Mubin Sheikh, as well. Thank you. And General Hertling, just excellent perspectives on this -- on this developing story and obviously the development now with the vice president using some pretty strong words about following ISIS to the gates of hell because that's where they reside.

It may be how many people feel, certainly haven't heard the administration saying it in those words.

The two Americans beheaded by ISIS were two men who were kidnapped on the job. Steven Sotloff and James Foley were journalists. They were covering events in a war zone. And it is a dangerous job.

How do they balance doing their job and staying safe? How do all media outlets do this going forward given what we know is now a strong tactic of ISIS?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Remember, it was just a little more than 24 hours ago that a horrific report was confirmed to be true. Somewhere overseas, American journalist Steven Sotloff was dead, executed, on video by a militant group trying to take control of parts of Syria and Iraq and God knows where else. On the video, Steven recites what is certainly a scripted message, saying that he is, quote, "paying the price for U.S. military air strikes" against the group called ISIS.

Steven Sotloff was an American. He was a respected international journalist in a part of the world where it is very difficult to be a Western reporter. Certainly an American one at that. And the man joining me now sometimes has to make decisions and send professional journalists directly into harm's way. Tony Maddox is my colleague. He's also the executive vice president of CNN International and he's the managing editor of that organization as well. Tony, it's one thing to be sending your troops into natural disasters

and accidents. It's another thing to be sending them into war. And now it seems to be a whole other ball game, sending our colleagues into places where ISIS has proven that it is ruthless and not willing necessarily to negotiate all the time. How is it you make these decisions?

TONY MADDOX, CNN INTERNATIONAL'S EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, there needs to be a clear editorial imperative. It has to be a very strong story. It has to benefit from CNN's presence there. I always think that people expect CNN to be the voice of truth on these difficult and challenging stories. So if it's possible, we'll need to get in. So it's the editorial imperative there.

And the next question is, how can we manage that assignment? How can we support that person in the field? What kind of exit strategies could we develop? How can we make safe in field if we need too? And how can we monitor and control that? What team can we pull together and what time frame? So a lot of planning and logistic work goes into each one of these operations.

And I would say, by the way, that for each one we sign off on, there's probably four or five that we turn down. There are always people out there with bids to go into certain places like this. It's a volunteer army at CNN and people are very keen to do this kind of work.

BANFIELD: I think that's important for people to know. I remember when I was sent to Afghanistan right after -- within days, nine days of 9/11 happening. My boss at the time said, at any moment you can back out at this.

MADDOX: Yes.

BANFIELD: At any moment, and no one will say anything about it. And I'm sure that that's the same protocol that you follow.

And can I just, you know, give incredible kudos to your team. Arwa Damon and Nick Paton Walsh and Ivan Watson, who have routinely been going into Syria to get these remarkable stories, who are often and now in Iraq and who put themselves and their crew members in such a dangerous circumstance in order to be able to tell the world exactly what is happening. And Sara Sidner on our screen now as well. There are so many more who are behind the scenes that I can't even mention.

But these kinds of journalists, and I've worked with many, I do worry that with ISIS upping the ante, that there may be many who finally say, even this might be too much and that this story may be too hard to actually report. Is that a concern for you?

MADDOX: Well, it's a concern for me at all times as to how - how our people are impacted by what they do and what they see and the kind of work that they do. Ashleigh, people like you show outstanding courage in going off on these assignments to international locations, being on these assignments for a long time. There are a lot of journalists who want to do this kind of work. There are other journalists, a smaller group, I expect that James and Steven were very much in this category, who almost have to do this kind of work.

I spoke to one of our correspondents, I won't say who he was, off the back of a particularly hair-raising assignments and I just said, you know, how are you? And this person said to me, actually, I feel really good. I feel a commitment to the people on this story. I feel a commitment to this story. When I go there and when I do reporting, even at substantial personal risk, I feel I'm honoring them and I'm honoring the story. I've thought about hat quite a lot. That's a tough way to live your life, but it is a part of what these people feel and need to do.

And there will be others, and I totally respect this, who will look at this and say, this isn't for me, I don't want to do that. And we've had journalists who have turned down assignments. But never any come back (INAUDIBLE) I totally get it. You've got to want to be there. You've got to want to do it.

Now, I would emphasize to the benefit of the viewers that our people are very well trained. We have extensive backup in the field, (INAUDIBLE) security consultants with the very best possible (INAUDIBLE) in terms of technology and safety gear, et cetera. And we do monitor these operations around the clock.

What I fear is for the journalists who do not have that backing and who do not have that infrastructure and who, frankly, you know, are much more vulnerable to this kind of attack. There seemed --

BANFIELD: Well, there are so many. There are so many unilaterals. There are so many people who are freelancing and filing for a number of different organizations.

You know, I wonder about that too, Tony, when you see the power of the videos that were released of Steven Sotloff and James Foley. It makes me wonder if it's time to stop showing them. It's time to take the power away from the executioners who see the currency in creating the fear through the broadcasts.

MADDOX: Yes. And that's a very good debate because the truth is, ISIS commit attacks of unspeakable barbarism on a daily, hourly basis, that they know that if they target certain western people and do it in a very stage managed fashion, people will respond to it.

A number of points to follow up on to that. Number one is, if the conclusion of this - I saw the piece that you showed from Nic earlier on, is that people understand just what a threat this group is, just how wicked they are, then they might feel to some extent they're fulfilling their own purposes. But we don't do it for that reason. The rest of the world needs to know what is happening. The rest of the world needs to know what a threat these people can be. And it will drive the story in ways in which they may not want. And you made the point earlier on, this is going to force the hand of many people who so far have not taken such strong action against and maybe they'll need to think that.

So we can overthink it. A big issue for us is that we don't want to put out any of our endless spiel about what it is they want and what it is they feel they stand for and what it is they think that they do. We try to broadcast information that's pertinent to the act of barbarism. But there is no -- as distasteful as it is, one cannot get away from the fact that these videos will drive the debate. They will impact government policy. And it's not for us to say to CNN viewers, you're not allowed to see them, if they're having that kind of an impact.

BANFIELD: Tony Maddox, managing director of CNN International. It's good to talk to you, sir. And I'm sorry it's under these circumstances. Thanks for being with me.

MADDOX: Good to talk to you, Ashleigh. Thank you.

BANFIELD: You know, before the world witnessed the horrific death at the hands of ISIS, Steven Sotloff brought the stories of ordinary people caught in conflict and caught in war to readers around the globe. And just ahead, a look at Steven's stories. The stories he risked his life to cover.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We can remember Steven Sotloff as yet another man in orange kneeling before his executioner, a victim of ISIS, or instead we can remember him for his remarkable work. A man who risked his life to report from Bahrain and Egypt and Libya and Syria and Turkey. At 31, he was a storyteller, speaking for those who otherwise would have no voice. Randi Kaye looks at his life and his legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Honest, thoughtful, courageous, that's how those who knew Steven Sotloff describe him. The 31-year-old freelance journalist had traveled the world reporting for various publications. In Libya, he wrote an article for "Time" magazine, a firsthand account from the guards who witnessed the attack on the U.S. compound in Benghazi. He spoke to CNN about it in 2012.

STEVEN SOTLOFF, FREELANCE JOURNALIST: There was no protest. They were armed with AK-47s, RPGs. They had blast demolitions, you know, for -- explosives for blast fishing. They had grenades.

KAYE: Sotloff loved journalism from an early age. He revitalized his high school newspaper. Majored in journalism at the University of Central Florida. He grew up in south Florida with his parents and younger sister. Besides journalist, his other love was the Miami Heat. June, last year, he tweeted, "is it bad that I want to focus on Syria, but all I can think of is a Heat finals repeat?"

After college, Sotloff began taking Arabic classes and writing freelance, sometimes taking chances. In Egypt, when a friend warned him not to meet with the Muslim Brotherhood, he went anyway, writing in "The World Affairs Journal" that he headed straight to the lair where he believed I would be devoured."

In Syria, Sotloff's reporting focused on the human side of the conflict, Syrians displaced, waiting seven hours in line for a bag of pita bread. In 2012, Sotloff wrote, "it's not bombs that are killing refugees, it is lack of medicine and proper sanitation." Even when he feared for his life, he kept on reporting.

JANICE DI GIOVANNI, FRIEND OF SOTLOFF: He was concerned that he had been on some kind of a list. And this was about the time that ISIS first turned up, first started showing up. And he felt that he had angered some of the rebels, he didn't know which ones, by taking footage of a hospital in Aleppo that had been bombed.

KAYE: Steven Sotloff was apparently looking to leave Syria soon, move home and attend graduate school.

BEN TAUB, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": He told me he had one last story that he was working on. He didn't tell me what it was. And he said that this was kind of the end. He was a little bit tired of it all.

KAYE: Tired and perhaps something more.

DI GIOVANNI: He had the same fear that all of us have working in Syria, the paranoia, the fear, the uncertainty.

KAYE: A friend fondly remembering him on Twitter wrote this, "at a smoky cafe in Cairo, tapping on his keyboard, sharing contacts and smiling wildly, the last time I saw Steven. A wonderful soul. Rest in peace."

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Thanks for watching, everyone. "WOLF" starts right now.