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Dr. Drew
Joan Rivers Dies at 81; Hot Car Dad Indicted for Murder
Aired September 04, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOAN RIVERS, COMEDIAN: I love performing. It`s like a drug for me.
Can we talk here for a second? No big deal to have a woman in the White House. John F. Kennedy had 1,000 of them. I am telling you right
now.
He said, God bless him, you`re going to be a star. It changed my life. And you look at this and -- look, my legs good look. The breasts
are in the right place.
LARRY KING, TV HOST: Is there any area you would not go to?
RIVERS: No. If I think I want to talk about it, then it`s right to talk about it. And I purposely go into areas that people are still very
sensitive and smarting about.
KING: Why?
RIVERS: If you laugh at it, you can deal with it.
It`s all been done to me. What are they going to do? They going to fire me? I`ve been fired. I`m going to -- audiences are not going to like
me? A lot of audiences haven`t liked me.
I`ve been bankrupt, my husband committed suicide -- I mean, it`s OK. And I`m still here. So, it`s OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: All OK, still, Joan.
Good evening. My co-host Samantha Schacher is with me.
And tonight, we begin by honoring the life of Joan Rivers. She died today at a New York City hospital. Last week, she suffered a respiratory
arrest. Meaning she stopped breathing, followed by cardiac arrest, all complicating an endoscopic procedure on her, we think her vocal chords,
some of the data not -- details aren`t out on this yet.
And our thoughts and my thoughts particularly, somebody I`ve known for a long time, Melissa, her daughter, are thoughts are with her and her
grandson, Cooper, Sam.
SAM SCHACHER, CO-HOST: Yes, absolutely a tragedy. I mean, this woman really was a pioneer for female comedians.
But, Dr. Drew, learning about her death, I became concerned for my grandparents. So, you being a physician, we have this added benefit of
having you on the show. And how common is it for people of her age to have complications, while they undergo a procedure like this?
PINSKY: Well, as you age, complications of everything go up. Whatever you are doing, it becomes more dangerous. And when things happen,
the complications are worse.
For instance, if you have a misadventure like this, where you stop breathing and your heart stops, the probability of you coming back and
having normal brain function is -- it`s slim and if you are out for a long time, it`s remote.
And, you know, I knew Joan a little bit and she would not have wanted to be impaired and unproductive. That would have been an imprisonment for
her.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: But, Sam, you had a question about the endoscopy --
SCHACHER: Yes, I don`t -- I really don`t even know what an endoscopy is.
PINSKY: Well, it`s endoscopy, it`s endoscopy, which is inside scope. It`s a fiber scope that physicians look through, or put on a television
screen when they want to look around inside the body and not use a knife and not violate the body or violate in a limited way, just by throwing a
scope in and then sometimes they`ll feed instruments down in the scope and do a procedure. In this case, they probably went through her nose and down
into here larynx and through here to operate on her vocal chords.
We don`t know what happened, but probably there was a misadventure, either with the surgical procedure, bleeding or what`s called a tracheal
spasm, or something with the anesthesia, there was some complication and she stopped breathing and then her heart stopped.
SCHACHER: And they are investigating the clinic that she was at. What can you tell us about that, when somebody does go after the clinic.
What does that mean?
PINSKY: You know, everyone is saying, oh, they`re investigating the clinic. They`re not investigating the clinic as though there`s some sort
of a sinister plot afoot here.
SCHACHER: OK.
PINSKY: What they`re going to do is evaluate their policies and procedures, to make sure that they`re at the highest and appropriate
standards, to make sure that they follow those policies and procedures. I mean, these are surgical units. They are held to a very high standard and
everything they do and the way they do it is all highly documented.
So, what they`ll do is, they will make sure there was nothing missed. Nothing in their execution of their policies and procedures that day that
went wrong or nothing about their policies and procedures that perhaps are behind the times or suspect or inappropriate for an 81-year-old.
I don`t think they`re going to find anything like that. The reality is, every time you interact with the medical system, bad things can happen.
It can happen, and particularly when there`s anesthesia and/or a surgical procedure involved, and when you`re older.
You add that up, bad things can happen. It`s common. And it`s unfortunate and there`s nothing we can do to prevent all of it. There`s
just nothing we can do.
SCHACHER: Yes, no, absolutely.
And just to continue on to your point, really quickly, I did see that a number of people were wondering why she would have this procedure at an
outpatient clinic. Is that OK to have endoscopy there?
PINSKY: Yes, that`s where they do it. Listen, my -- oh, absolutely. This is -- my prostate procedure, I had a big surgery, it was a robotic,
sort of endoscopically, you know, I had some endoscopic procedure, parts to it, that`s now done in an outpatient center. That`s not even done in --
they`re less and less surgery is done in a hospital.
Sam, I want to bring in comedian Jamie Kennedy, who knew Joan. Jamie is on the phone. I just heard.
Jamie, can you give us your thoughts on Joan, her passing?
JAMIE KENNEDY, COMEDIAN (through telephone): Well, first of all, Dr. Drew, she, again, the community has lost another icon. And just because
she was 81 and she was older than, let`s say Robin, she still died ahead of her time.
PINSKY: I agree.
KENNEDY: She had a lot of life to give, a lot of life. I mean, talking to her was like talking to a 25-year-old. I mean, she was so
smart, she was with it, she was still doing specials up until, like, a year ago.
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: She`s always on the road.
PINSKY: And, Jamie, these two, Robin and Joan, kind of hit us all in the gut, didn`t it? They affected everybody. I`m almost surprised, but
here we are.
KENNEDY: Very much in the gut. Robin was this humongous surprise.
Joan, a surprise, she`s older, but again, like you`re talking about, I don`t know all the details, but it seems like a procedure, potentially
something went wrong, I have no idea. But again, it`s before her time.
But who she was is, I mean, one of the first jokes I ever heard her say was, my parents love me, they used to test my bath water with my face.
I mean, she was so funny. I used to go up and watch her on "The Tonight Show" and she was hilarious.
But the one thing about her that I think about more than anything was, she was resilient.
PINSKY: Yes.
KENNEDY: Her book and her talking, anyone in Hollywood --
PINSKY: Jamie, I`ve got to interrupt you. We`ve got a bunch of people that want to ring in. Thank you so much for joining us giving us
your thoughts.
I`ve now got comedian Sheryl Underwood. Sheryl, are you there?
SHERYL UNDERWOOD, COMEDIAN: Yes.
PINSKY: You heard Jamie. I mean, the thing about Joan, for me, and for even my family is that she was important for women.
SCHACHER: Right.
UNDERWOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: People -- I don`t think people appreciate how historically important this woman was.
UNDERWOOD: Well, you know, I`m glad that you are mentioning that she was a mentor, a trailblazer for us. The fact that she was one of the first
women you see consistently guest-hosting on "The Tonight Show" go on to have her own nighttime show, and, you know, we`re watching these movies.
She`s written a film where a man gets pregnant.
Now, come on now. That`s genius. That`s iconic. The movie where a very unattractive woman gets plastic surgery and gets revenge on everyone
who treated her bad. See, that`s the genius and the brain of Joan Rivers - - to think that she wasn`t very attractive, but she was an icon in fashion. She really let us know what we could do as female comics, toe to toe stand
up with a man, one woman with a microphone.
And I just want the world to know, she was loved. She was respected. She was a mother, a mentor, a grandmother. But she was also a fierce,
dynamic queen and we are just -- I think we`re shocked, because she was ageless and timeless for us. We just can`t believe that this is happening.
But God does not make mistakes and we`re going to pray her up and like everyone knows, Joan would want us to be laughing and loving at the same
time. She had such a big heart.
PINSKY: Sheryl, thank you so much. We have to go to commercial break. We`ll have much more back, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam and we are remembering Joan Rivers. Her death, of course, a huge loss for her family, for her fans.
Now, Sam, I mentioned before the break that she is historically important for women. I want to put a finer point on that, which is that,
before, look at her there. We`re looking at a picture of her probably in the `70s or `60s. Well, that`s coming a little later, maybe `70s there.
When she first hit the scene, she was the first standup woman that was just a normal woman. She -- before that, people like Phyllis Diller, if
they were female, they had to be a clown.
SCHACHER: I know.
PINSKY: They couldn`t just be a female. This was the first time, not only could you be a female, you could talk about female issues and you
could speak the truth. What Joan always said, they didn`t want to hear the truth from a woman, and she spoke it.
SCHACHER: Absolutely. And she is fearless and opened up so many doors and in her book, Dr. Drew, she mentioned that when she first came
onto the scene, if you saw a woman come on stage, an attractive one at that, you`d would assume she was a singer.
PINSKY: Yes, there you go. And just ran into Kathy Griffin into the hallway, she was doing Anderson Cooper. She`s the next one that carried
that torch in my opinion. Her name comes to mind immediately. And she agrees she carved -- she cut the path for everyone else.
SCHACHER: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Now, I want to show everyone a clip. I found this today. I think it was on Facebook or something I found this.
Sam, you`ve not seen this. I want you to react it to. It`s from "Joan Knows Best" on WE tv and she`s talking about death and dying. And it
moved me and I want you to see this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOAN RIVERS: If anything happens, Melissa -- no, but I`m not chicken, I`ve had a great life, an amazing life. If I die this morning, nobody
would say, so young.
You`re a terrific person. Cooper`s fine. You`re all fine. I`ve had an amazing life. And if it ended right now -- amazing life.
If something happens, things are fine and life is fine. And life is so much fun. It`s one big movie.
MELISSA RIVERS: I know.
JOAN RIVERS: God, what a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) business this is. You have to look good.
MELISSA RIVERS: I know.
JOAN RIVERS: Only thing that makes it a little sad is that Cooper`s not gay.
MELISSA RIVERS: Oh, mom.
JOAN RIVERS: If I die, who is going to want my show tunes collection?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, she`s -- she ends it with a joke, of course. She`s so funny.
But there she is. She`s preparing for a procedure, another procedure. She`s saying, oh, this damn business, I have to look so good. That`s why I
got this procedure. She felt that pressure.
But she tells you here that she has lived a good life.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: And if God decides it`s time for her to go, she`s fine with that.
SCHACHER: Yes, and you know what, that`s a beautiful way to think. And it seems like that she was ready, but nobody wants to --
PINSKY: I don`t want her to go. I feel bad for Melissa. But the fact is that Joan`s okay. It is beautiful. Death is a part of life. And
it is --
SCHACHER: Hard to accept, though.
PINSKY: It is -- I just have such respect when people get to that point. It is a beautiful thing when people get to the point, they`ve lived
their life so fully that when it, should it come, they`re ready.
I wish not for all of us, I wish not for Melissa. I wish not for Joan, but here we are.
So, on the phone now, I`ve got Jenny Hutt, she is the host of "Just Jenny" on Sirius XM Radio. And Jenny had a chance to interview Joan back
in 2012. Listen to that interview and then we`ll talk to Jenny.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JOAN RIVERS: Everyone loves me. I`m the only one that doesn`t have a radio show. All I have is a late night show. Only with her own TV sitcom.
Betty White, who has -- I`ve fallen and can`t get up button.
JENNY HUTT, SIRIUS XM RADIO: Yes, it`s ridiculous.
RIVERS: And they all love me. Love me a little less and send a check. That`s why I wrote the book. I hate everybody. Ask me anything.
HUTT: OK, are you dating now?
RIVERS: No. They`re all dead.
Who is left alive? I don`t want a man with a diaper.
HUTT: Do you think there`s anything that`s taboo in comedy?
RIVERS: No.
HUTT: I agree.
RIVERS: No. And -- no, it`s all about laughing at the most taboo.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: And there we are.
Jenny, thank you for joining us.
HUTT: Sure, thanks for having me.
PINSKY: You were pretty friendly with her, weren`t you?
HUTT: No, I wasn`t friendly with her, but I got to interview her and I was a huge fan, like I think everybody. And I think to your point, what
you guys were talking about, how beautiful it was, how she was talking to her daughter in that TV clip you shared, I think what was so beautiful was,
she was trying to comfort her daughter.
PINSKY: Yes.
HUTT: So, even if she was having fears about that procedure, she wanted her daughter to know regardless, her daughter would be OK. And I
think that`s one of the things about Joan Rivers is that I believe her whole purpose, ultimately, was to set up her daughter and her grandson`s
life.
SCHACHER: Right.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: So selfless.
PINSKY: She didn`t talk about that a lot publicly, but I know that was a very important piece of the story for her.
HUTT: Yes. And I also think she taught so many of you that you can laugh through the pain and that`s part of getting through life, and maybe
the only way to really get through life. She survived so many things, Dr. Drew and Sam. I feel like she`s a survivor and so we appreciate her even
more because of that.
SCHACHER: Laughter is the best medicine.
PINSKY: Right, but do you feel like this woman was important for women?
HUTT: Oh, yes, incredibly. She was open, she was honest. She was without apology. She was outspoken. She was smart. And she wasn`t
ashamed to say, I care about what I look like and I`m going to do what I have to do to make myself look good.
PINSKY: And, by the way, it`s a shout out to Barnard College, which she is an alumni, which is the women`s college at Columbia University.
They create some amazing women and she is one of them.
Jenny, thank you so much for joining us. Talk to you soon.
HUTT: Thanks for having me.
PINSKY: We have so many people that want to talk about Joan tonight. On the phone next, I have Lisa Lampanelli, queen of mean.
Lisa --
LISA LAMPANELLI, COMEDIAN (via telephone): Hey, Dr. Drew. How are you doing, babe?
PINSKY: Hey, Lisa. I`m great. So good to see you. You and I going steady now. I get to see you all the time.
LAMPANELLI: Oh, my God.
PINSKY: And after you were on the radio show, two nights later, I ran into your ex-husband. I don`t know he was at that comedy club still in New
York.
LAMPANELLI: Yes, I told you we were still friendly. Isn`t it good to meet a happily divorced couple?
PINSKY: Yes, it was wonderful.
But back to Joan, your thoughts on Joan, because I know she must have been a huge influence on your career.
LAMPANELLI: Oh, my God. If she hadn`t come first, there would be no Lisa Lampanelli, no Kathy Griffin, no Chelsea Handler. Somebody has to
break door down. And I know an interviewer said to me today, well, she didn`t break them down with the intention of helping other women, I said,
yes, but it doesn`t matter what the intention was. She did it.
We wouldn`t be bawdy and loud and edgy and able to sail what we wanted to without the one who did it first. And she was the woman, that`s the
icon.
PINSKY: I think she did. I think she was concerned with women`s issues. I really do, because, you know, in the Moms Mabley documentary,
she talks a little bit about that, the importance of Moms Mabley and the importance of women speaking the truth and people don`t want to hear it
from women, particularly not a woman that looks like a regular female, a regular person.
LAMPANELLI: Yes, I did love that she was actually very attractive and, you know what`s funny, people, we have so much self-hate about how we
look in this society and when I look at pictures of her from the `60s and `70s, I`m like, she`s a good-looking woman and it`s so funny how we have to
make fun of ourselves and this and that.
But, boy, she didn`t care. She did what she wanted to do. She opened doors for everybody, and whatever, you know, hey, thanks to her, I have a
job. That`s all I really feel. And I also, you know, having been touched by the death of a parent lately, I`m feeling so sorry for Melissa, because
you don`t see it coming.
And my dad gave me the speech also, where he said, I accept it, and that`s like the hardest day of one`s life. My prayers go out to Melissa
and her son.
PINSKY: But, Lisa, you also told me, as painful, as difficult it is, maybe pain isn`t quite the right word, you felt it was a beautiful thing.
LAMPANELLI: Oh, my God. When my father said, I accept it, those are three words, you think you don`t want to hear, but you are so happy you
hear them eventually, because that`s the person who needs to accept it, that person. And then you can work on your accept acceptance. That clip
was really beautiful. I really teared up.
Joan was deep, man. I didn`t know her, I don`t -- I don`t even know if I ever met her. I know she wasn`t a fan of mine. She didn`t like my
comedy, but every time I was asked about it, I go, who cares? She`s allowed to say what she wants. And thank you, Joan, I have a job.
PINSKY: Thank you, Lisa. Thank you everyone who has rung in with us.
We have to go break. We`re back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Grand jury returned an 8-count indictment against Justin Ross Harris.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Malice murder, two counts of felony murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The father says he forgot to take the boy to daycare.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And left his toddler in (AUDIO GAP) in the blazing Georgia sun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cruelty to children in the first and second degree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As 22-month-old Cooper Harris suffered and ultimately died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Harris admitted to recently researching online child deaths inside vehicles.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the last one, dissemination of harmful materials to minors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most common term would be sexting.
PINSKY: He was sexting a 16-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a picture of exposed, erect penis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m back with Sam and, obviously, we`re changing gears here.
Bringing in Evy Poumpouras, law enforcement analyst, former agent to the secret service, Danine Manette, criminal investigator, author of
"Ultimate Betrayal", and Karamo Brown, host of #OWNShow on Oprah.com.
The man known, we have called a hot car dad, indicted on eight counts today, including malice murder, felony murder, all this for leaving his 22-
month-old son in an SUV for nearly eight hours, as a lot of people I`m sure, where child eventually baked to death.
Danine, what do you make of these charges?
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Well, I think that it seems pretty accurate to me. I`m not surprised.
There are a lot of charges. A couple of them, though, are in conflict. The two felony murder charges, I think it is interesting they
charged one with malicious intent and the other with negligence, which basically means one, he had malice and a forethought, the other, it was
something that he should have known better than to do.
And I think they did that so the jury had two options, so if they can`t find that he intended to murder this child, they can at least find
that he should have known better as a parent and should have made a better decision. Give them kind of the either/or argument.
PINSKY: So, Danine, the D.A.`s not going to whittle this down to some other charges or pick among them. These are the ones he`s going to go to
trial for?
MANETTE: Well, not necessarily. This is kind of a shotgun approach, which means that the D.A. fires off a bunch of charges and decides what`s
going to stick. That`s when the defense attorney comes in. And they kind of go through the charges and figure out what seems to be appropriate and
what isn`t.
And the D.A. made decide to get rid of some of these as they go along. But, you know, to me, the charges that they`ve put forth are pretty
straightforward and they are pretty accurate according to what the facts of what we`ve been presented.
PINSKY: All right. Evy, I get the criminal negligence, I mean, I think that`s what we`ve been saying all along. But it sounds like they are
heading possibly towards a death penalty case. Do you think?
EVY POUMPOURAS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Right. So, that`s why they are giving that malice charge. The malice murder charge essentially is
saying it`s more than intent. There`s something premeditated but very malicious here.
And, again, it depends on how the Georgia law statutes work. But essentially, if they can`t get him on that, they will probably push for
capital punishment, which is what they want to do.
But essentially, when they pick these charges, when you go to a grand jury to get an indictment, it`s to a group of citizens, essentially. They
lay out all the evidence and they say, OK, this is what we have. Based on what we have, the grand jury comes back and says, OK, here are a bunch of
charges. This is what we think we have to get him on.
And then, as you go through the trial process, the discovery process, you see what sticks and what doesn`t. So, essentially, you come up in the
beginning, you put as much as you can and sometimes, some of these may fall through.
PINSKY: Well, speaking of going for the death penalty and the malice and forethought. I wonder if the producers can throw up all the sort of
elements that -- about what he might have been doing that he was searching online for things, maybe put his -- we`ll put that on the screen in the
meantime.
I want to talk to Karamo, first, in the meantime, though, about these -- what I think was up there as the -- the last two counts, that`s what it
was, the fact he was sexting an underage girl. That part, for me, was the most telling part of the entire case and there`s no dispute about. You
agree?
KARAMO BROWN, #OWNSHOW: Yes, I agree as well, Dr. Drew. Obviously, this man is despicable, but I really hope that while this trial is going on
that he is getting some type of therapy. He`s being evaluated in some different ways, because there`s something a lot deeper going on here.
I mean, obviously, what he did is despicable, but for him to be that distracted, where his son would die in a car, and the fact that we find out
the distraction was sexting underage women or underage girls -- there`s something deeper that`s going on here. And I think somebody needs to help
this man.
PINSKY: Well, unless he`s going to go to the gallows -- Danine is laughing.
Karamo, I`m with you, that`s how I think, too, but our ladies think very differently.
Sam, go ahead.
SCHACHER: Yes, no, just talking about this case again makes me physically ill. I didn`t want to revisit it today. There`s so much
circumstantial evidence out there and yes it`s circumstantial, but they all piece together point to something far more sinister and suggest that he
premeditated this.
And at the end of the day, I just want to see justice for baby Cooper, who died such a horrific, absolutely disgusting, disturbing death.
PINSKY: Yes. And, Evy, does the fact, though, that he seems to be a pervert -- so to speak -- I say he`s a sex addict. I think that`s -- call
it what you will, but does that make him a killer?
POUMPOURAS: It doesn`t make him a killer, but it gives you a bit of an insight into his mindset and his morals, his ethics, his beliefs. I
mean, all that`s tied into it. He`s sexting with something that is very young, who, even though you may not know the age, when you look at the
picture of this 16-year-old girl or 15-year-old girl, this type of behavior, sexting with multiple women, it gives you an idea of a person`s
soul, so to speak and that seed of evil. So, I understand what Karamo is saying, and I appreciate that. But some people they just have that evil
seed in them and it just takes hold and it makes them do certain things that the majority, the population would not do.
PINSKY: And, Karamo, I am with you, but there are some people that are criminal and Evy and Danine get to deal with them all the time. And,
those stuff almost confuses me. So, Danine, drop your last bomb on this group here.
DANINE MANETTE, CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: I am sorry, Karamo, but the type for therapy has come and gone. I mean it is time for punishment now.
This guy killed this baby. And, I mean, you know, I am sorry that he has some things going on mentally, but it is time for him to go to trial, be
convicted, be put away and he will get therapy some other time but no, that time has come and gone.
PINSKY: And, what about the wife? Next, is she still supporting him? Later, we got another super crazy case of an aunt who learns on Facebook
that her niece was allegedly planning to kill her and others. Amazing story. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOX KILGORE, JUSTIN HARRIS` ATTORNEY: He has lost his son, his livelihood, his freedom. His wife has been vilified, humiliated.
Embarrassing things about his private life have been aired in public in an attempt to make him look like a bad guy. And, now, an indictment that
includes three counts of murder. But we still do not know what the state`s theory is. And, the truth is, Cooper is death was a horrible, gut-
wrenching accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam and our Behavior Bureau. Emily Roberts, Psychotherapist; Danine Manette and Jennifer Keitt, Life Coach. We are
talking about hot car dad indicted today on murder charges. If convicted, they are aiming towards, it looks like, they might include a death penalty.
The thing here -- the question here is, is there premeditation versus simply criminal negligence? And, I keep saying that this is a guy that was
negligent because he was busy sexting out and acting out his sex addiction. What do you say, Jennifer?
JENNIFER KEITT, LIFE COACH: I am sorry, Dr. Drew. I cannot believe it. I cannot believe that sexting has got you so wrapped up that you
forget your child. I think for me, the turning point is the fact that if the evidence shows it, he went back to the car.
You cannot tell me that he was so wrapped up in his naked body and the naked body of all these women that he did not see in the backseat of his
car. His son is still on that car seat. I am absolutely -- I cannot buy that one bit. I am sorry.
PINSKY: I know better than to ask Danine, but I will go to Emily. But, he was texting with six women. If we said, let us say -- let us not
call it sex addiction anymore, let us call it alcohol addiction, alcoholism. Somehow, we call it alcoholism, everyone goes, "OK. He was
preoccupied with his addiction."
But when we say sex addiction, it is hard to get our head around. A lot of people have never seen real sex addiction. These guys are
distracted. But the question is, Emily, are they distracted enough for it to be this kind of egregious negligence?
EMILY ROBERTS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I am going to go ahead say it is sex addiction and it is also there is a psychopathic tendency here, which we
are kind of not really speaking about, which is that he -- this is premeditated. He was looking up this information.
He was also getting all this instant gratification from the sex addiction. And also, it means at this time, he is late 20s, early 30s,
that is the perfect time for a psychotic break or something a little bit off to happen, especially in men. And, that is what I think happened here.
PINSKY: So -- I will get your thoughts, Sam, then Danine, because I think we put Emily and Jennifer together. We get Danine, I think with this
one. So, go ahead Sam. What are your thoughts?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. No, I definitely think it is premeditation. I am sorry. I understand the sex addiction, Dr.
Drew, but what about looking up a child free life? What about him going from the Chick-Fil-A to work and forgetting his child. And, then also
after work driving to the shopping center.
Ten minutes in the car, not noticing or seeing his child`s head over the rear-facing child seat, every time he looked in the rear view mirror.
Looking up how long it takes for a kid to die in a car. A dog to die in a car. He did not even have an animal. To me, that all speaks to
premeditation and something far more sinister.
PINSKY: All right, Danine?
MANETTE: I do not care what he is addicted to, Dr. Drew. He put his kid in that car and he left his kid to bake and die. That is all I care
about. And, I am glad the D.A. charged it as both negligent crime or as a malicious crime, so they can get a conviction either way. I do not care
what his addiction is. I do not care what his mental state was. I do not care that he was whacking off. I do not care what he was doing. He killed
his baby and he needs to go under the jail. End of story.
PINSKY: No. Danine is right. The point is well taken. Jennifer, go ahead.
KEITT: Dr. Drew, so, OK, even if, all right, he is addicted to sex, like you are suggesting it, and I can believe that. What about -- why
would his wife, then, allow him to take the baby, to go to school, to drop him off, et cetera, if he was so preoccupied with his body parts? Please
explain that.
PINSKY: Yes, well, first of all, the wife has not been charged with anything. And, she has actually been moving around. She is free to move.
She has moved back to Alabama. I think she may be trying to distance herself from all this stuff. But you know, I have seen co-dependents do
things that are as, you know, you shake your head just as much as what co- dependence do as what the addicts do.
But, we can split hairs on how much the addiction came to bear on this guy`s behavior, but I actually agree with Danine, wholeheartedly and
Jennifer by inference, you, as well, in that -- in that it does not matter. It went so far as to take a life. That is how far this went. Whether it
was premeditated as Sam suspects, whether there was a personality issue, as Emily suspects, or it was all addiction or some combination of these
things, it is time now for justice.
ROBERTS: Right, and the wife is involved, too.
SCHACHER: I agree. Yes.
KEITT: I agree.
ROBERTS: Absolutely. Absolutely.
PINSKY: There you go. All right. Next up, this story is a little clearer, but equally as outrageous. It is clearer in the sense that I get
what this girl here is all about. It is not good. A woman posing as a boy on Facebook learns about a plot to kill her, allegedly cooked up by her own
niece. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: A 19-year-old Marissa Williams is behind bars. About a week ago, she was living with her aunt. Police say Williams
had a dispute with her aunt over men she was inviting over. Investigators say the aunt started snooping, created a fake Facebook page, called herself
`Tre-Topdog-Ellis` and befriended her niece.
According to court documents, Williams asked Tre to shoot her aunt, her aunt`s fiance, cousin and their dogs, even explained how to do it.
That is when the aunt brought the evidence here to the Tuscaloosa County Sheriff`s office and Williams was arrested for solicitation of murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Evy, Danine. Joining us, Jason Ellis from Sirius XM Radio. Girl`s aunt told investigators she had created a profile
after her niece blocked her on Facebook. She was snooping on Facebook. The niece blocked her. The aunt was concerned that the niece was meeting
strange men online and then inviting them to their home.
So, she set up this alternative Facebook page and that is where she discovered. Well, she began interacting with the niece and that is when
the niece started trying to get sex from her and trying to get her to come over and kill her aunt. Kill the woman she was talking to. And Sam, you
have got more background?
SCHACHER: I do. I have a little bit of background on Marissa Williams. From what we know from local news reports, she was in the
custody of the Alabama Department of Human Resources for much of her life. In fact, she was most recently living in a group home setting.
But, problems reportedly surfaced in the group home and that is why she moved in with her aunt in April of 2014. And, according to court
documents, Dr. Drew, the aunt created the fictitious Facebook character that you just mentioned on May 24th and then two days later, the alleged
murder plot evolved.
PINSKY: That is just -- that is just -- the murder part there. Also according to court documents, the first day, Jason, this woman interacted
with her niece, as Topdog, the fictitious boy created by the aunt --
SCHACHER: Ellis -- Topdog Ellis. Could be a Jason Ellis fan.
(LAUGHING)
PINSKY: That is kind of what I want --
JASON ELLIS, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Thanks for bringing that up.
PINSKY: The girl in that little interaction, the niece shared the home address, invited the Topdog guy to come over and get drunk, offered to
have sex with him, if he said her $50 cell phone bill.
SCHACHER: Wow.
ELLIS: Yes. I refuse to believe that anybody is blowing that way. I think that this girl has been treated really badly in her childhood to
react like this and to be so evil.
PINSKY: Yes.
ELLIS: I mean, this is such an evil thing to, like, to want to have sex with a random old guy, murder -- and even to have those things in your
brain rolling around -- I just -- I refuse to believe that people are born that evil. I think somebody brought her that way.
PINSKY: OK. Let us get a little poll here. Evy, what do you think?
POUMPOURAS: I do think some people are born evil. But I do agree with you that in this circumstance, I think her past life history, the
things she has gone through, had let her to this point. I also do think, Dr. Drew, that there is some mental type of disorder, personality disorder.
But, I want to say that --
PINSKY: But, wait a minute, Evy. Evy, before you do. But I agree with Jason, this is evil. Whether it has psychopathy, whether it was born
this way, created in the group home, whatever it was, now you have got evil and I am not sure this is treatable.
POUMPOURAS: It is -- it is both. It is both, because there is a lot of people who do have disorders that do not act this way.
PINSKY: Right.
POUMPOURAS: I believe that some people, there is a small part of the population out there that had this seed, this tiny seed of evil. And, some
people have bad thoughts, evil thoughts, but they do not act on them. To actually act on something like this. This is a step beyond. And, I do
believe -- I do believe and I do feel that this is someone, again, I do not think you can treat this individual. I think she is going to have problems
her whole life.
PINSKY: I agree.
SCHACHER: Yes.
PINSKY: And, Danine, you know, it is not that just she over the course of a long period of time, they uncovered occasional examples of this
sort of evil behavior. She immediately gets into this stuff the first time she interacts with this guy, or her aunt.
MANETTE: And, you know, I am really quick to classify something as evil. But in this situation, quite honestly, I think that she is so deeply
disturbed. It could even be some type of a chemical imbalance. Why was not she ever living at home? Did she have a type of situation, was she born
addicted to some type of drugs?
Something is going on with this girl, for her to be this disturbed. I do not know that it is evil. I do not -- maybe she is borderline mentally
retarded. I do not know what her deal is. But I just do not see the evil element in this. I think --
PINSKY: You do not?
SCHACHER: I think she is deeply disturbed, because she is been in the system for so long.
MANETTE: There is something wrong with her. It depends on what system she is in. Is she in the delinquency system or she in the child
protective services system? Was she abused? Was she born to drug-addicted parents? Does she have some mental incapacity that makes her unable to
think clearly?
PINSKY: Sam --
SCHACHER: I do not know.
MANETTE: She is too quick to be -- to do these things.
SCHACHER: Right. We do not know the details. This does not seem like her first rodeo because she was cavalier about it. She seems psycho
and evil to me. She has zero feelings whatsoever. She is only worried about herself.
And, I hate that fact that she is painting herself to be very remorseful and apologetic to these police officers, which is not the case
because the aunt gave her many opportunities disguised as this Topdog character saying, are you sure --
PINSKY: Jason Ellis.
ELLIS: Stop!
SCHACHER: Are you sure you want to kill your family? Are you sure? And she said, with all certainly, yes, I want to kill them. And she went
so far as to provide instructions in how to get into her aunt is room and whom to kill, kill everybody, including the dog.
PINSKY: She was smart enough to know how to do that.
MANNETTE: I think she is mentally disabled. I honestly do.
PINSKY: However you get to evil, guys. We are splitting hairs on how you get there. But, hang on. Evy, I know you got something to say. We
got to take a break. We will get your comments from Facebook, Evy`s comments, Jaso, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Police say 19-year-old Marissa Williams thought she was talking to a new friend named `Tre-Topdog Ellis on
Facebook. Court document say Williams asked `Tre to pay off her cell phone bill in exchange for sex. Williams also invited him over to her house for
drinks.
The two exchanged numbers and began texting. Days later, their online and text conversations turned sinister. Police say Marissa asked `Tre to
allegedly shoot and kill her aunt. Turns out, police say, `Tre was actually Williams` aunt, who created the fake Facebook profile to see who
Williams interacted with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with Sam, Evy, Danine, Jason. 19-year-old Marissa Williams has been charged with solicitation of murder. Sam, lots of people
weighing in on the Dr.DrewHLN Facebook pag. What do you got?
SCHACHER: Oh, they are. The overwhelming majority of Facebook comments, Dr. Drew support the aunt.
PINSKY: Yes.
SCHACHER: So, for example, Sandita wrote, quote, "Do not even claim mental health on this one. She wants to pull a big boys crime. She can
take a big boys punishment." However, there is a facebooker named Deirdre, and she came down pretty hard on the aunt. She wrote, quote,
"Wish the aunt would have gotten her the help she needs rather than just locking her up. WTF is up with the aunt who would pose at another to spy
on a family member. Sounds like the whole family needs help."
PINSKY: All right. Evy, you wanted to say something here in the last block? Go ahead.
POUMPOURAS: You know what? Sam touched on something earlier, she said that she is very apologetic now. Somebody who is very apologetic can
also be very manipulative.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: People who have these psychopathic tendencies, or that evil that we are talking about, they are manipulative. They know what to
say. They know what to do. I do believe that sometimes it is -- people either in their DNA or their personal makeup or their blueprint; however,
you want to look at it. But, just because somebody has a mental disorder, a personality disorder, or even under the influence of drugs or alcohol,
they do not always act this way.
PINSKY: Right.
POUMPOURAS: OK, I think you have to have that other element.
PINSKY: Yes.
POUMPOURAS: And, I have sat across from people. I have done a lot of criminal interviews throughout my live and you always know who those people
are. When you look at them, you speak to them, you know. You know who is really sorry. You know who made a mistake and you know who is just not
right.
SCHACHER: Wow.
PINSKY: Jason, you right. Are not you? You are not one of those people.
SCHACHER: No, why would you say that about him?
PINSKY: Just -- he likes taking things on, in the environment. I know that is not you, but go ahead, your comment.
SCHACHER: Poor Jason.
ELLIS: I just think she sounds like somebody that has been controlled her whole life and she wants the power. And, she got a little bit by using
the Topdog guy and now she is like -- how much power can I rain down. She seems to me like someone -- nobody has given her any consideration.
PINSKY: Yes.
ELLIS: And, she is like I finally have some power. I can get a guy to come over. Sex pays my phone bill. What else can I get because I want
to control something, because I have never been in control of anything my whole life.
SCHACHER: Wow.
PINSKY: I think Jason brings up a really good point, Danine. And, that was the part that you were having trouble with, which is sort of the
mediasy of her acting out. She feels grandiose. She feels empower, maybe she is a little manic, even, too. But ultimately, you are so used to
people being manipulative and sinister that the fact that it is so out there is what makes you doubt the evil part.
MANETTE: I just do not think she is wrapped too tight, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: She is not. She can be evil.
MANETTE: I think if you spoke to her, she would probably have the conversation level of, like, a 10-year-old. She just to me seems like that
there is something mentally diminished in this girl. The fact she went so quickly from getting to know somebody online and, all of a sudden, will you
kill my family? She is not wrapped too tight.
ELLIS: If you live in a house where you are trying to pay your phone bill, it is a bad house. It is a bad life. It is a very sad circumstance.
And, when it is real sad, people get real evil. It just -- it is the way the world treated them.
SCACHER: I think she is really dumb.
PINSKY: That is right. Evy?
POUMPOURAS: Look, you know, as far as this young woman goes, there is just a lot of people who behave this way because that is just who they are.
This -- this young woman, I understand maybe she needs help or maybe, you know, some people are mad at her aunt for spying on her, but could you
imagine her aunt did not spy on her?
SCHACHER: Right.
POUMPOURAS: Maybe her aunt did not find this out? What could have happened to her? This is someone, I think, who maybe can get treatment, but
there is a bit of a decline here with this young woman.
PINSKY: Yes. And Sam, it could have been a mass murder.
SCHACHER: Absolutely. And, I think that says a lot that her aunt felt the need to spy on her niece to this degree. I think she knew
something was up, something was off. And, I think that speaks volumes. And yes, thank God she did, because her life and her fiance`s life and this
girl is cousin and the dog would have all been dead.
PINSKY: To Evy`s point, there is a doctor here in Southern California doing MRI scans, functional MRI scans on psychopaths, which are people that
have these sort of evil qualities to them and they are finding certain structures in this brain, in this area right in through here, the sort of
tempo-parietal area the is different.
And, maybe that little difference combined with some circumstance of life is what creates that difference where some people become servants.
Some people want to help other people and other people become violent criminals. Jason, last words.
ELLIS: What did the dog do?
SCHACHER: I know! What did any of them do?
PINSKY: And again, violence against animals is very often apart of this. Danine, your last thoughts.
MANETTE: Well, you know, I am sorry. I understand what you guys are saying. I just -- I do not see that in her. I think that there is
something mentally wrong with her --
PINSKY: I know, but you are saying that there is cognitive difficulty and brain injury, we should somehow excuse this?
MANETTE: No. Not excuse. No. Not excuse. I am just saying, I do not see the evil element.
PINSKY: All right. Got to go. "Forensic Files" -- first of all, DVR us, you can watch us anytime and then next, "Forensic Files" begins now.
Watch us in the After Show.
END
